Am I Naive?

[coolestuk]

I would tend to agree with IJWT about English proficiency. I've spent quite a lot of time with my boyfriend's siblings... all graduates in their early to late 20s. Each of them can barely speak little English. They may be more proficient than they appear, if we allow for shyness, but even the one who works in an officially English-speaking office is hardly able to keep up a conversation of more than a few minutes duration (my guess is that in that office they only speak English with the foreigners).

But of the young gay men I've met it is a different story. Those who speak proficient English clearly have spent a lot of time mixing with foreigners (from what I can gather about the methods of English teaching and standards of Thai teachers in Thai schools and universities, it is no surprise if most people have poor English). And it was quite significant to me when I met my boyfriend that he spoke so little English. Not that I'm saying the English-speakers are to be avoided - just that I am only ever in Thailand for short periods of time, so I had to look for quite specific and gross signs to indicate what someone's motives for befriending me might be. (I was 100% sure that the 'farmer' I met who who spoke very fluent English and was 'in Bangkok for a few weeks on an annual holiday' from his farm near the border with Laos, was a liar).

It is quite sad that we do have these concerns about the biographies of the men we meet. But given the usual inequalities of wealth, it is no surprise that we are suspicious of their motives. One thing I always do, is to leave plenty of money lying around (I know how much is there). If the conversation with someone I have recently met drifts to his lack of money, or if some money is taken, it is a clear sign that money is going to be an issue, and I politely get rid of him. I would prefer to have a couple of thousand baht stolen from me in the first day or two, than spend a week with someone who was just with me waiting for an opportunity to get money out of me subtly. I value my time and honesty more than I value the money!

My boyfriend never asks for money, and he uses his money wisely. I've supported him generously for most of our relationship, and when I'm in Thailand he just draws money out of our bank account and pays for everything. I'm sure if left to my own devices I would spend more by myself than he spends on both of us.

[PeaceBlondie]

I think maybe there's another factor that hasn't been mentioned, as to why gay Thai young men tend to be so fluent in English. In school, it's common for the straight boys to hate English class, and the ladyboys love English. At least, that's what a gay, middle-aged, Thai teacher of English in the provinces tells me, and it's obvious there. You'll have maybe 38 girls in an intermediate class of students 15-18 years old, and 10 boys. The katoeys and the not-so-obvious, but effeminate gay boys sit near the front, work hard, speak up, and earn good grades. The other, straight boys sit in the back, don't try, and get bad grades.

I doubt that these gay boys are learning English just to become money boys; I think it's part of the katoey syndrome, part of which is to be outgoing and overly friendly.

[slapdashkitty]

Just finished a week at a major multinational company-did they speak English well?

Sorry a few of the higher ups could get by-but the rest-sorry it was Thai only save for basic pleasantries and I had to rely on my translator (gosh I could hardly help myself from licking him so gorgeus and sadly hetero!) to communicate with any sort of effectiveness.

But then again it does not really matter they had the best growth YOY in Asia last year....

[Tornado]

Jogsy - He works as head waiter in bar.

I bet he does

[PeaceBlondie]

On the other hand, some barboys don't learn much English. I ran into my old [money]lover at the supermarket recently (actually I stole that line from Dan Fogelberg). He's been a barboy for three years, and still can't hold a conversation. He's still struggling with the same 300 word barboy vocabulary.

Unless we're fluent in a foreign language, a conversation of more than three minutes, on superficial subjects, is all we can handle. Your average Thai executive may not have the vocab or motivation to discuss anything more than the basics.

In summary, some Thai executives may have the same size of English vocabulary as some money boys.

[Gleen_tea]

I've dated some students (actually I'm still dating the last one) and the last two were quite similar in their motives to learn English. They both come from middle class families and they both spoke very basic English when I first met them. Over time, their English language abilities improved drastically to a point where they became quite proficient. Well, for a Thai student anyway . I asked them what had motivated them to learn English and they both said that they wanted to meet and interact with foreigners and get to know them and they understood that this could only happen if they know English well enough. They both had taken own initiatives to learn, one had become friends with an exchange student from Canada, the other had bought books and tapes to practise at home.

[ChrisP]

My current bf (21) has excellent English, for a Thai. His mother is an English teacher... but he's learned much of his proficiency from watching endless movies (in English) and he has a dictionary that he uses if he's unsure of something.

I rarely have to modify my speech patterns or word usage to be understood. Sure, some of his "idioms" are a little odd (actually, sometimes quite cute!) like... "My doggie has a flat face... like the television screen" (it's a Pug dog.)

His motivation was to interact and meet Westerners.. and date them.

He succeeded.! It's much more enjoyable dating someone with a wide vocabulary already than dating someone with only 300 words.

ChrisP

[jingjoe]

gotta agree.... a great relationship is there to be found if you keep the battery in your bullshit-o-meter charged up.

Time spent with a thai guy who has a reasonable grasp of english is FAR SUPERIOR to GREAT sex with a CUTE thai guy who lacks any conversational ability.

[Ice Treasure]

gotta agree.... a great relationship is there to be found if you keep the battery in your bullshit-o-meter charged up.

But surely that's true of anyone. As we mature, and seek either smarter (if we are clever) or cuter (if we are shallow), partners, we are aware of the fact that the partner of choice may well be testing the envelope.

Part of the issue we confront as older gay males, is that we are seen as a reasonable way out of a youthfully exuberant go-nowhere lifestyle, either by virtue of the fact that we have the financial capacity to do it without pain, or the emotional maturity to act as guides.

If that sounds like a nonsense, I really have to state it isn't, it's fact at least in my experience. We are treated by our young frinds exactly as we treat them.. treat them like a minor interruption in a busy social circuit and they will act like minor (usually paid) interuptions. Treat them with the importance you attach to the relationship and the same will be returned many times over.

I am so over men of 50 plus whinging about how the bf treats them like this or like that, when if we honestly look at our relationships, we will find that we feel "how could he love an old man like me?" When in fact, our bf's do have the capacity to do just that. Love us unconditionally, if the time is rigt vis a vis their life stage and the feeling is right for us, to feel a deep and abiding love for them.

As has been said before - reach out and touch - it really does pay handsome dividends.

[ProThaiExpat]

Bravo Ice Treasure!! Your words of wisdom should be taken to heart by all those reading your thread, straight or gay. My guess is that 90% of the hetero whining about their girl friends in this forum (because 90% or more of the posts regarding relationship complaints are hetero) would disappear if they followed your advice. However, many can't because of their "taking" nature vs. the "giving" nature required to follow your advice.

I have consistently followed your suggested course of action with my Thai for the last three years and the rewards from our relationship keep multiplying. I can easily see how it could have gone the other way, if I had approached the relationship as so many other expats do (at least as they report in their posts) with their Thais. Each breakthrough I make in improving the relaionship is rewarded with even more abundant benefits.

My latest effort to effect a self-regulating feature to the extended family need request scenario plagueing many farangs in this forum is in progress and I won't report on it for a couple of months until I have documented success, however, it looks incredibly promising and will remove the last barrier to an otherwise almost perfect, for me, relationship with a Thai.

[astral]

Just finished a week at a major multinational company-did they speak English well? 

Sorry a few of the higher ups could get by-but the rest-sorry it was Thai only save for basic pleasantries and I had to rely on my translator (gosh I could hardly help myself from licking him so gorgeus and sadly hetero!) to communicate with any sort of effectiveness.

But then again it does not really matter they had the best growth YOY in Asia last year....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Give them a little time.

They know more than you, or even they, think they do.

Shyness is a real part of the problem, and just getting used to hearing and speaking English with a native.

I suggest you sign up for some Thai lessons as well, as a sign of good faith.

[ChrisP]

Part of the issue we confront as older gay males, is that we are seen as a reasonable way out of a youthfully exuberant go-nowhere lifestyle, either by virtue of the fact that we have the financial capacity to do it without pain, or the emotional maturity to act as guides.

Ice Treasure...

Nope, this isn't nonesense at ALL..! It's perfectly true... and something that we DO need to examine.

My bf had decided it was time to settle down into a serious relationship somewhere around the time I met him.. after having a certainly "exuberant" lifestyle. Now, did he do this because of me..? or would he have wanted to do it with the next serious bf anyway..?

I'll never know. But he's definitely serious about it. He's intelligent, has clear opinions, is honest, considerate, communicates well and because of this I treat him as an equal in the relationship. I know he appreciates that part VERY much (he's told me), and the "emotional maturity" I bring, more than the financial security....

ChrisP

Edited December 5, 2004 by ChrisP

[Ice Treasure]

Important point there Chris,and well made. In spite of many slips shall we say, in MY life issues, my BF has stood by me through thick and thin, and I adore him for it.

So when I hear people saying "Thais are thieves etc", they are wrong in general. I have frequently had to apologise for over-generaloising because I know I do, but at the end of the page, I would be dead if my love was not part of my life and it doesn't get much simpler than that IMO.

Credit where credit is due, the heteros come in complaining about their "partners" and you look a little deeper, and they began the relationship... where? The ones with a depth to their relationship are happy and fulfilled and few of them are here complaining about life as a fulung.

I am quite happy. Thank you. You can be as well if you are honest with your partner. In all things.