Ubon National Park

[The Vulcan]

Currently traveling the country and have arrived at Ubon Ratchathani.

Disgusted to see the extortionate charges made against Farrangs at the National park and various waterfall sites that they so recommend we visit.

We're expected to pay 10x (I repeat TEN TIMES) the Thai entrance fee i.e. 40 baht for Thai's - 400 baht for farrangs!

Needless to say I refused.

Hopefully you'll ALL register your protests by similarly refusing to pay.

[MarcoH]

It's same all ovet the thailand.

i been those in Chong Chiam and never payed more than thais,,but have to say few words of thai helps and 5yr driving licence what indicate that i live here (ubon)

even you go to Khao Phra Viharn you will be charged similar sums.

just get over it and continue your journey.

[The Vulcan]

Beg to differ Marcoh, but it's NOT the same all over Thailand.

I've just covered 9,500 kilometres and this is the FIRST time I've encountered such an exorbitant difference.

And how many tourists will be able to present a 5 year Thai driving license?

But, point taken, as I have now moved on!

Edited October 26, 2007 by The Vulcan

[citizen33]

Beg to differ Marcoh, but it's NOT the same all over Thailand.

I've just covered 9,500 kilometres and this is the FIRST time I've encountered such an exorbitant difference.

And how many tourists will be able to present a 5 year Thai driving license?

But, point taken, as I have now moved on!

I know that the wider issue of dual-pricing is an old chestnut and that ex-pats tend to polarise all too quickly into two camps. But having suffered the phenomenon in various forms, I am not far off Vulcan's view. If enough people walk away, it strikes me that two tier pricing won't grow as fast as it will if they happily pay and exhort their fellows to 'get over it'. Although dual pricing was probably most common in tourist areas in the past, I've noticed the practice spreading to several Isaan hotels and I do think it is a plain rip off. I see that one of the most helpful websites in this area - Fairprice-org.thailand - seems to have been wound up.

Edited October 26, 2007 by citizen33

[jay-uk]

my wife and I have had similar problems when crossing the laos border by boat and had local Thais trying to charge inflated prices for border crossings. i found it was principle more than price that got to me and i refused to pay. its not that i couldn't pay its just why should i pay more than the locals.

[madjbs]

Ehh have you just traveled 9500km with your eyes closed? Its the same all over Thailand, some parks still use the old 20bht ,200bht price but the popular ones have mostly gone up to 40baht, 400bht. I actually agree with the dual pricing but more along the lines of 100baht for tourists which doesn’t include people that can produce a Thai driving license etc.. 400 baht is waaaay too much, especially if you are a family.

[sezzo]

Last year around this time, a farang friend (from Khon Kaen) and I, along with our wives and kids went to visit Soi Sawan waterfalls near Pha Tiem national park in Ubon. Now we approached the ticketing box at the entrance and were told that it was 400 baht for the farangs and 40 baht for the thais. This would have brought the total to 1040 baht. On hearing this my friend turned and walk away telling all that could hear and understand english that he was not impressed. As we all started moving back to the car park the attendant told my wife that 600 baht for the lot of us would be fine.

It was 600 baht well spent as those waterfalls are magnificent when there is plenty of water around.

Dont always accept the written price and maybe get your wives/girlfriends to maybe negotiate the price down especially if in a group.

[jumnien]

In ten years and countless trips to National Parks in Thailand, I've paid once the full price. Try speaking Thai poorly, but with humility and accepting the outcome regardless. It's magic here in the kingdom!

[MarcoH]

Im Sure many of us been in Ayuttaya,, well that is good example who dual price is enforced, every temple or ruins has Dual price, was there 3 days and believe me or not i did not have to pay 2/3rd of the places visited a Farang price, I waited the rush go by and when counter was empty did go there and smile and spoke few words of Thai\Lao and surprisingly it helped, even Ayuttaya historical Study Center paid 20THB.

But good example of i can give from Bang Pa-in Summer Palace in few miles out from Ayuttaya, entrance fee was sky high and that is ROYAL Palace, there was NO negotiating what so ever, but ones inside there is hel_l of the walk if one decide to walk, also there is golf car rental and that as well had dual price, BUT when wife went to talk to them we got Thai price for it for 2hr drive.

Sure one don’t like that but as we been traveling almost all over Thailand one just have to take it,, Thaïs could not care less in many places if one farang walking away, BUT like Sezzo mentioned if there is a group it's very easy to negotiated, we did that in few national parks in Isaan and close to chonburi and got reasonable group price.

Always worth to try, but it’s wont help if one get mad or show frustration, smiling takes a long way and smooth talk, even when you are not happy of the price and decided to walk away, just try to keep cool and say, bye bye then, that in some place might turn they mind and they call you back.

[Vegemite]

Does it only happen in Thailand?

[thedi]

I look at it like this:

When I pack a pickup full of kids and family for an outing to a waterfall - say Nam Tok Ta Ton in Chayaphum - I am always pleased, that the entry fee of 200 Baht applies only to me: for the the kids and family I get a huge 90% discount.

Nice, how the Thai government helps me and makes this outings affordable

Regards

Thedi

[MarcoH]

I look at it like this:

When I pack a pickup full of kids and family for an outing to a waterfall - say Nam Tok Ta Ton in Chayaphum - I am always pleased, that the entry fee of 200 Baht applies only to me: for the the kids and family I get a huge 90% discount.

Nice, how the Thai government helps me and makes this outings affordable

Regards

Thedi

That is one of the best way to look at it, i think we all should look in to it that way

[The Vulcan]

I look at it like this:

When I pack a pickup full of kids and family for an outing to a waterfall - say Nam Tok Ta Ton in Chayaphum - I am always pleased, that the entry fee of 200 Baht applies only to me: for the the kids and family I get a huge 90% discount.

Nice, how the Thai government helps me and makes this outings affordable

Regards

Thedi

This logic applies on the understanding that 200 baht is an acceptable entry fee. HOWEVER, if 20 baht is the acceptable rate then you're paying 10 times the norm!

Anyway, seems my post has served a purpose in identifying some local knowledge.

Would it not be a good idea to expand on this inside information and post a few more snippets of local information and maybe a mod could pin it for the benefit of future travelers?

Over to you locals.

[taxexile]

sadly , there will always be a few who cheerfully accept pricing dependant on the colour of their skin.

given that tourists already bring massive amounts of money into this country , and that overcharging of tourists in the main resorts is almost a national pastime , government run attractions should be setting an example and not be doing this.

[abdulrahman]

sadly , there will always be a few who cheerfully accept pricing dependant on the colour of their skin.

given that tourists already bring massive amounts of money into this country , and that overcharging of tourists in the main resorts is almost a national pastime , government run attractions should be setting an example and not be doing this.

Let say it clear:it's a scam!

Understandable only at the level of corruption in LOS!

[madjbs]

Its not even close to a scam, if you choose to pay the entry fee then thats your problem, nobody forced or tricked you into it did they? it is called demand and supply.

[jay-uk]

It seems to be the norm all through thailand and as much as it agrivates me to the bone there is usually little or no choice in the matter when in LOS. Having a Thai wife and kids also they can go through at local price and i have to pay over the odds. There is not much can be done about it but in principle its wrong because other than i weigh a few Kgs more than the average thai do i take up any more room in the seat of a show or when visiting a national park. the short answer is NO... does my colour cause concern and raise the price...NO it should not but it comes down to one factor... is your wallett heavier than the average thai's visiting the place. YES as farangs they assume we can afford to pay more so they charge more. Nothing else just this in my opinion and the fact that there is a greater probability that the Thai guy and his mate at the entry box to the national park and/or show may be able to pocket a few baht also means they charge us a higher price. There are no morals applied to their decision making, it is greed only. I feel it's probably not down to supply and demand as some of these places (not all but some) see more Thai visitors than farang visitors so the economies are not worked out based foreign people walking through the entrance as when I was there in at the national park there were more Thais that day and apart from a few chinese with cameras the thais seemed to out number us.

In most cases you can negotiate if you live over there and/or speak a little Thai. However, does not change the fact that its wrong and we are been soaked when ever they get a chance but all said and done when I have usually got over my moaning about the price you go on to have a lovely day at some truly spectacular places in thailand which would be the visit anyhow. My wife found that when she first came to UK seven years ago and here English language was still poor that some of the shops and market traders would over charge because they thought she did not know any better as here English is now as good as the locals it stopped happening. So a good command of the language is important anywhere if you do not want to be ripped off.

Edited October 27, 2007 by jay-uk

[The Vulcan]

............ it is called demand and supply.

The mind boggles?

[plachonubon]

I went to pha diem in Ubon my brother in-law politely argued that it was v expensive and the price was halved!

I recently returned from a trip to the UK and walked away from many places as the entrance fee was too high!!

If you are local to an area in the UK and prove it you can get in the places free or at a reduced rate!! same idea as they have here!

the pricing system is not really fair but we do earn 10X what a Thai does (generally) so stop moaning

[abdulrahman]

the pricing system is not really fair but we do earn 10X what a Thai does (generally) so stop moaning

Interesting!

I presume you pay for EVERYYHING 10X the preis:without moaning!

[ThaidleHands]

the pricing system is not really fair but we do earn 10X what a Thai does (generally) so stop moaning

Before we defer to your superior logic, could you instruct us farang where we can sign up for the 300 baht health care scheme?

[sriracha john]

A new quarterly thread...

I apologize for having overlooked this fiscal year's quarterly thread on double-pricing and arriving in such a tardy manner.

I post my standard response in the hopes that one day the Thai solution proposed to this Thai/Foreigner issue becomes reality:

Ahhhh... another thread to which the following is appropriate:

Sorry to have not noticed this month's version of this monthly thread earlier:

I have never heard of a tax id and work permit in tandem NOT get someone in at local prices.

Just off the top of my head and to be quite specific from personal experiences, the following parks would accept ONLY Thai National ID cards for admission at Thai prices:

Pang Sida National Park

Huay Huat National Park

Khao Sam Roi Yot National Marine Park

It is a highly inconsistent policy extended across the country which lends itself to abuse and charges of racism/favoritism, and creates a great deal of resentment. Certainly not worth the ill will it generates.

It's a shame when those in power to effect change ignore the recommendations of those with brains. The solution is right in front of their noses:

Dr. Adis Israngkura, an economist at Chiang Mai University and a consultant to Thailand's first and foremost "think tank" (Thailand Development Research Institute) conducted a research project for TDRI on this very topic and wrote the best paper, "Determining entrance fees to national parks: the case of Thailand" that I have ever encountered on the subject.

The paper, published in 2001, made the following recommendations:

1. Higher fees, for all, to the more popular parks with many facilities, which can subsidize the smaller parks with very few facilities.

2. Higher fees, for all, on long week-ends/holidays when parks tend to be heavily visited to help ease congestion and lessen environmental degradation, which will result in increased visitor satisfaction.

3. Annual memberships and lifetime memberships should be offered and available to all.

4. Both Thai and foreigners should pay the same entrance fee, but special services should be made available to the foreign visitor for additional higher fees, such as English-speaking tour/travel guides or English-language information booklets/maps. "The current policy unnecessarily jeopardizes the the image of the overall tourism industry."

5. Entrances fees should be exempted for the elderly, the handicapped, and children visiting on school trips.

I think when experts, and Thai himself, recognizes it as a problem, it's VERY telling....

[citizen33]

I went to pha diem in Ubon my brother in-law politely argued that it was v expensive and the price was halved!

I recently returned from a trip to the UK and walked away from many places as the entrance fee was too high!!

If you are local to an area in the UK and prove it you can get in the places free or at a reduced rate!! same idea as they have here!

the pricing system is not really fair but we do earn 10X what a Thai does (generally) so stop moaning

I have never come across a mechanism whereby locals in the UK get things at a reduced rate (apart from perhaps in the informal economy) and would be interested to hear some concrete examples. There are some differences in the provision of public services within the four home countries following devolution, but these apply to all residents of each country and are really 'cross boundary' issues.

Two points worth making are:

(1) UK public museums and many art galleries are now free to all.

(2) The Race Relations Act, 1976 includes the following provision:

s20. Provision of goods, facilities or services.

— (1) It is unlawful for any person concerned with the provision (for payment or not) of goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public to discriminate against a person who seeks to obtain or use those goods, facilities or services—

(a) by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide him with any of them; or

(b ) by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide him with goods, facilities or services of the like quality, in the like manner and on the like terms as are normal in the first-mentioned person’s case in relation to other members of the public or (where the person so seeking belongs to a section of the public) to other members of that section.

As others have observed, dual pricing in Thailand is usually explicitly on the basis of ethic or racial category rather that local area of residence. Anything similar in the Uk would be unlawful, and it is most certainly not the 'same idea'.

Edited October 28, 2007 by citizen33

[jumnien]

Caucasian Thai citizens are treated exactly the same as Asian Thai citizens or Negroid Thai citizens; it's got nothing to do with race, it's based on nationality. California residents are given many discounts that non-state residents are not given. Just one example.

[sriracha john]

It IS based on race when Asians, such as Filipinos, Malaysians, and even Japanese are not questioned and allowed entry based upon the Thai rate, whereas every Caucasian is charged the foreigner rate, with the exception being those that produce a Thai National ID card.

This is one of the points Dr. Adis Israngkura (a Thai) discovered in his research project.

[MarcoH]

It IS based on race when Asians, such as Filipinos, Malaysians, and even Japanese are not questioned and allowed entry based upon the Thai rate, whereas every Caucasian is charged the foreigner rate, with the exception being those that produce a Thai National ID card.

This is one of the points Dr. Adis Israngkura (a Thai) discovered in his research project.

Japanese dont go in thai price at least here and Ayuttaya,, cos out friend had to pay same as other farangs

[jumnien]

Clearly, every Caucasian is not charged the foreigner price. See previous posts!

[Naam]

Caucasian Thai citizens are treated exactly the same as Asian Thai citizens or Negroid Thai citizens; it's got nothing to do with race, it's based on nationality. California residents are given many discounts that non-state residents are not given. Just one example.

it's the same in Florida.

[thedi]

it's the same in Florida.

And in Switzerland. Local people pay less in shops in top tourist destinations. In the village where I live, the kids of the village can use the swimming area in the laqke free - all other pay...

[sriracha john]

It IS based on race when Asians, such as Filipinos, Malaysians, and even Japanese are not questioned and allowed entry based upon the Thai rate, whereas every Caucasian is charged the foreigner rate, with the exception being those that produce a Thai National ID card.

This is one of the points Dr. Adis Israngkura (a Thai) discovered in his research project.

Japanese dont go in thai price at least here and Ayuttaya,, cos out friend had to pay same as other farangs

It's sporadic and inconsistent when and where this occurs, but I've witnessed it at Khao Sam Roi Yot, as an example.

Clearly, every Caucasian is not charged the foreigner price. See previous posts!

See previous posts, as well, where it IS... as the policy varies from park to park and even within the same park from employee to employee, the whole system is a mess.... and one that is easily rectified by following Dr. Israngkura's solutions above or failing that, requiring a Thai National ID card of EVERY entrant desiring to enter at the Thai rate. Anything short of either leaves the entire program open to valid charges of racism and inequality.

Edited October 28, 2007 by sriracha john