Is Organic Food Really Better?

[Foreverford]

I remember the article. I just can't remember what was in it?! yukka yuk yuk. That reminds me of the story oif the old golfer who got teamed up with three hot young guns at the first tee. The starter assured the kids that the guy was decent enough at getting the ball around the course and wouldn't slow them downand though he was really old he had the eyes of an eagle. Well one kid wasn't too keen on having the old fart having to join them and he let loose with a huge and angry swing nearly out of his shoes. He sliced it way right and everybody lost sight of it but the old man. "I see it. I see it ! ". With that he had a new friend as thekid who hit it was very happy to have the old guy playing and walking next to him in that first fairway. He said "Hey old man your not a bad golfer and you've got mighty good eyesight" . "Nearly perfect" said ther old man. A few yards further up the fairway the kid asks where is my ball. The old man looks him in the eye, and then holds the look for a few more seconds, smiles a nice gentle smile and says, "I forget".

I do remember there were some mighty big holes in one of the articles in regards to how everyone needs to give the farmers something for nothing to make it work. Well organic farming is very much like everything else I've seemed to do in my life as far as work (for money art or pleasure) and that is there never seems to be enough hours in the day. I have never found it easy to be successful (happy?) by putting in eight hour days. There always seems to be a 32 o r 38 hour days as the rains are coming any day and the pumps need to be moved pipe picked up hose put down or something that needs mending now as it did for the last two months but now is non-functional and and and. Anyhow 4am to dark usually gets a start getting a lot of what needs to be done.

Yeah it is really tough to write about something you don't live or immerse yourself in, especially farming on any type of subsistence level. Education, or lack of, (not the availability, the use of) is obviously a huge huge factor in the Thai rural system and it is an extremely dificult dilemma with the current mindset. i think examples are the easiest way to teach, but unfortunately so, it is also the least productive in the respect that so very few folks get a chance to observe and benefit from it by seeing the side by side difference in an organic and non-organic plots.

I could think of millions of things that local farmers could be "given" and the things they have been given but without the knowledge, examples and education it can be just dust in the wind. Sure take 40 farmers 20 rai each and give them one new (old rebuilt) Ford 6600 and one (ideally two) competent operators (out of the 40 farmers?) an adjustable 18 disc. a box scraper, dozer blade and a Howard rotavator. When you have spent the time and diesel to remove probably 80 to 90% of the small plots with their levees so the land can be properly leveled into large plots. The cost of planting the 20 rai plots is well under five thousand baht (excluding seed, including fuel and all maintenance costs of the tractor,and realistically also the tractor and equipment depreciation). The cost of the same using the old traditional methods starts to get towards 100,000 baht. Why so cheap to plant using sustainable organic methods and a tractor? Because twice a year , if you are lucky, you will be able to put in a cover crop of say, Pah Teung, sun hemp beans (fifty kilos "given" free to each farmer by the govt) and be able to enrich your soil with this atmospheric nitrogen fixing legume and all its green organic matter that you will disc into the soil as it starts to flower. the process of doing this once or twice allows you to enrich the soil and the discing and the shading cover of the crop controls many types of weeds. This process usually will leave the soil nearly ready to accept the rice as a viable seed bed. How do you get 40 farmers in Thailand or anywhere to cordinate operate integrate assimilate, get their hogs to mate and be with their mates and make this happen is another story. The process is very acheiveable on paper and theory but.....

I also believe they talked of how the very small farmer (my previous diatribe was about big farmers 20 rai is a big piece here for the majority of Thai farmers) just couldn't even get near organic farming as it took too much money. I think it is actually just the opposite the least amount of money and property you have the more that it is essential that you use sustainable and organic methods to be able to optimize your returns. I'm typed out and physically a bit of a broken mess so will take off some time in the grease and dirt as required, so may be able to put in a bit more input to this and other topics in this forum as the alternative.

The key to organic and really most farming is going to be the infrastructure to be able to get rid of all the majopr costs of the middle-man money stealers. Even more so for the nascent organic folks is the actual development of a market and consistent buyers available for the seasonal and also all year round crops. If and when the farmers know they have an established semi-profitable source to sell their crops only then will you find a few folks that will want to change their old dog ways and make the leap to organic.

Yeah it would be great if the govt would "give" the farmers more of lots of things. If we could take just the "corruption tea money cut " from all the tablet computers that are going to bought for the school kids and invested that money in about 200 guys like Waters Edge and put them loose roaming the highs and lows of thai farming as field advisors without any ties to the corrupt govt sdystems the farmers would readily benefit from "give aways" like that but its much more beneficial to the "givers" to give everybody a fish that they can eat today than giving them a hook and a line and showing them wehere they can find some bait. Like Taj Mahal said "Many fish bites if you gots some good bait, I'm a goin' fishin' yes I'm goin' fishin' and baby's goin' fishin' too" Hot Dog Fords Forever Fishin'

[rice555]

Hello IA & FEF, both articles seemed to me another rudderless plan here.

Is there a www. where I can find out what it takes to be 'certified OG' in LOS?

FEF, Henry Saint Clair Fredericks brought back a lot of memories, last saw him

and the Greg Khin Band in the late 70's. At a club, corner of Birch and N.Calif. Ave.

in Palo Alto just a block and a half away from Common Ground, where I got my

small intro in OG in the early 70's.

"Lovin' in My Baby's Eyes" "Ain't Nobody's Business" Now I have to dig out the CD.

rice555

[IsaanAussie]

Hi Rice,

Try this for your details

ACT Organic Standards 2009.pdf

Isaan Aussie

[Foreverford]

Well Hot Dog right on and left off you ol' Issan Aussie kind of guy. I've got it again and ain't letting go. I remember the gibberish that I got the first time I tried to "win zip"??! whatever to get this off the internet. recently i was able to link up and get it and then somejhow managed to lose it before printing it. I then went back today a bit before 4am when you came on-line and out popped the "win zip" gibberish again when i tried to accessx the doc's from ACT with no luck and then Bingo bring up Thaivisa and here it is in all 45 pages of its glory being copied onto real, hold in your hand, made from thai Eucalyptus tree, hard white paper. Got to love it it. Timing, Timing timing. It's everything. That reminds me of a story............ oh no not again!

A yukka yukka and say hey old Nickles in a Bunch Ricer guy. "Like Never Before" Taj's album about a half dozen years after you saw him may be one of the greatest albums ever made. the song "Don't Call Us" could be the anthem of organic farmers. That album with Richie Havens "Simple Things" took me around the world nearly a half a dozen times or so in the mid to late 80's and early 90's (and a few others surely). Two mega classics that I think few folks have ever really heard. Wall to wall every song a super-hit and a nice diddly "Squat Dat Rabbit", with no Bo, from Taj that just make you shore to not take it all too seriously all the time. I think he is still out Hawaii way. Maybe try to run him down in the next couple of months. Common Ground is still in the semi-new location near California and ECR. I think the first store was over on Alma between California and University. Boom Baby the brain cells are all gone but i just got a flash of where you saw him. I was thinking maybe Antonio's Nut House but it was the big supermarket turned night club. Was it called the Keystone ? I remember Jerry Jeff Walker kickin out the walls there once. Tons of folks had em kickin their heels at that place before the punks ended up screwing it up eventually but still a really good long run in the heart and soul rock. From the 60's with the Dead the then Warlocks unplugging my pinball machine before Little league practice at I think AMaggos Pizza Parlor in Menlo Park just a few doors from where Jerry garcia was teaching guitar at Guitars Unlimited. Santana down the road at Sequoia High in Redwood City getting his garage band together. Pig and Janis in and around East palo Alto and menlo Park with Kesey holding the jester court around Cassidy and Stanford and La Honda and Neil Young up on his Sugar mountain. MA high grads stevie Nicks and Linsey Buckingham made the good move to team up with Mick Fleetwood and they've never looked back and Sly Stone and all kinds of folks rolling through or living it for a bit of a good run. Things had gone plenty sideways and inside out before the end of the seventies and Taj coming through town again. Man the free shows that guy played in the early days. i still thinks he gives 10% of all his gigs to charity a too cool guy and big time fisherman. Dr. Treelove was working with McClenehan's Tree Surgeons back in the very early 70's jsut after i had so will have to ask him in a few days if he ever made it over to the Keystone. Wow late 70's on the San Francisco Bay Area Peninsula now That reminds me of a story or two.... There I was On a great big red machine 4 on the floor a huge body long V-12 Flat-head open cab roaster 1949 Seagraves. That was a real pumping machine for the Menlo Park Fire Dept. I think we ended up giving it to the Puerto Vallarta Fire Dept as some crazies from there drove it down and donated it to them. Ramrod the dead late president of the Dead had one on his farm in Petaluma...... uhh oh I just read my last line and I guess it is time to stop telling stories as it borders on the absurdity of reality or something semi sort of like that ...ya know.

So hey Nickles where did you go to high school? Common ground was really the heart of the Organic Movement on the west coast. It's good to see that they are still surviving in this electronic world. IN ABOUT 24 HOURS i'LL BE STARTING THE 24 HOUR JOURNEY to get over there and I'm definitely going to run down Dr Treelove so we can share some lies. Where is your farm? Five Five Five and Fords Forever and Aussies from Issan too

[rice555]

Hello IA, just downloaded it, thanks.

rice555

[rice555]

Hello FEF, Have a nice trip and say Hi to Dr. Don for me.

Yes, it was the Keystone, I knew the old Purity Food Store more for the Whole Foods store in the early 70's.(forgot the name)

I'm from the Mission in SF, but grew up in Santa Clara County, close to the now Valley Med Center.

About 12 years ago, I went to CG and bought a soil testing kit to bring with me when I moved here. In a few more days, that will be 11 years in Korat.

Safe Trip rice555

[Furryman]

While it is yet to be scientifically proven that organic foods are more nutritious than non organic foods, it goes without a doubt that eating organic foods exposes one to far less chemical residues (most notably pesticides, hormones and antibiotics) than eating conventional foods.

To assert that the genetics of an organism is the only factor that will determine the end product of food production is plain silly. The clearest example of this is fine wines. Vineyards all over the world use vine stock that is genetically identical, yet many can taste the difference between a wine grown in optimal conditions and one grown in less than optimal conditions.

[Foreverford]

While it is yet to be scientifically proven that organic foods are more nutritious than non organic foods, it goes without a doubt that eating organic foods exposes one to far less chemical residues (most notably pesticides, hormones and antibiotics) than eating conventional foods.

To assert that the genetics of an organism is the only factor that will determine the end product of food production is plain silly. The clearest example of this is fine wines. Vineyards all over the world use vine stock that is genetically identical, yet many can taste the difference between a wine grown in optimal conditions and one grown in less than optimal conditions.

You got it. The one thing that has been scientifically proven (by me the mad scientist) is that organically grown foods definitely do taste better. If you can chem and poison the plants and soil and water to acheive equal nutritional values of your crops you will never be able to beat the taste of food that has been grown on sustainable (ever increasing tilth) organic soils of 5, 10, 100 and even 1000's of years of practice. Over 50 years of research into that one and still can't keep myself from eating more. Sure right about the grapes we also had an interesting thread on avocados here that said that the fruit is one in which it will change its characteristics to its new climate. A bit different than grapes being planted in areas that aren't as conducive to growing climatically and therefore aren't as viable and optimum in flavor to others grown in more favorable conditions. Choke Dee FF

[Foreverford]

Hello FEF, Have a nice trip and say Hi to Dr. Don for me.

Yes, it was the Keystone, I knew the old Purity Food Store more for the Whole Foods store in the early 70's.(forgot the name)

I'm from the Mission in SF, but grew up in Santa Clara County, close to the now Valley Med Center.

About 12 years ago, I went to CG and bought a soil testing kit to bring with me when I moved here. In a few more days, that will be 11 years in Korat.

Safe Trip rice555

I'm off to the Bay Area today but let's try to get together when I get back and spin a few tales. I know we know a bunch of the same folks. Steve bartkowski and I played a bit of football and baseball together and and .... Fords Forever