Prayer

[DavidHouston]

I am confused by the Western and Thai words for prayer. Seems to me that there are at least three concepts for prayer: 1. giving praise to some divine being; 2. supplications or asking the divine being for something; and 3. reciting verses to remind one's self of religious concepts. Here are some words on this question from Lexitron and the Royal Institute Dictionary. Which do you think are relevant? Are there other terms of art in Thai which express similar concepts? Finally, is "prayer" as used by the Thais the same as "prayer" in Western religions? (Note, the translations of the Lexitron examples are mine; if they are in error, please correct them.)

Lexitron: ภาวนา [V] pray; wish; hope

Def. สำรวมใจตั้งความปรารถนา.

Sample:พวกเราได้แต่ภาวนาให้สงครามยุติได้โดยเร็ว

"We only wish that [pray that] this war will end soon."

RID: ภาวนา [พาวะ–] น. การทําให้มีขึ้นให้เป็นขึ้นทางจิตใจ. ก. สำรวมใจให้แน่วแน่

เป็นสมาธิ เช่น สวดมนต์ภาวนา, สำรวมใจตั้งความปรารถนา เช่น นั่ง ภาวนาขอให้พระช่วย. (ป.).

Lexitron: อธิษฐาน [V] pray; hope

Def. ตั้งใจมุ่งผลอย่างใดอย่างหนึ่ง, ตั้งจิตปรารถนา, ตั้งจิตขอร้องต่อสิ่งที่ตนถือว่าศักดิ์สิทธิ์ เพื่อผลอย่างใดอย่างหนึ่ง.

Sample:ท่านแม่ทัพใหญ่จะต้องไปอธิษฐานกับพระพุทธรูปให้ชนะก่อนออกศึกสงครามเสมอ

"The commander in chief is always obligated to pray for victory to [pay homage to] a Buddha image before entering battle or making war."

RID: อธิษฐาน [อะทิดถาน, อะทิดสะถาน] ก. ตั้งใจมุ่งผลอย่างใดอย่างหนึ่ง, ตั้งจิตปรารถนา, ตั้งจิตขอร้องต่อสิ่งที่ตนถือว่าศักดิ์สิทธิ์เพื่อผล อย่างใดอย่างหนึ่ง, อธิฏฐาน ก็ว่า. (ส.; ป. อธิฏฺ?าน).

Lexitron: ปรารถนา [V] desire; long for; want; wish; hope for; yearn; aim; aspire

Syn. มุ่งหมาย, อยากได้, ต้องการ, หมาย, อยาก, ประสงค์, หวัง

Sample:การตายเป็นสิ่งที่ไม่มีใครปรารถนา แต่ก็เป็นสิ่งที่ทุกคนหนีไม่พ้นไม่ว่าจะมั่งมีหรือยากจนเพียงใด

"Death is something that no one wants; but it is inescapable no matter how rich or how poor one is."

RID: ปรารถนา [ปฺราดถะหฺนา] ก. มุ่งหมาย, อยากได้, ต้องการ. (ส. ปฺรารฺถนา; ป. ปตฺถนา).

Lexitron: สวดมนต์ [V] pray

Syn. สาธยายมนต์, สวดมนต์ไหว้พระ

Sample:หากพระจะบริหารร่างกาย ท่านใช้วิธีเดินจงกรมและสวดมนต์ไปด้วย

"If the monk is to exercise, he will also have to practice walking meditation and utter prayers."

RID: สวด ก. ว่าเป็นทํานองอย่างพระสวดมนต์ เช่น สวดสังคหะ สวด พระอภิธรรม; (ปาก) นินทาว่าร้าย, ดุด่า, ว่ากล่าว, เช่น ถูก แม่สวด.

[jumnien]

My view is that prayer is a common human activity like eating, procreating, reading, singing, dancing, cuddling, etc. Not much difference between a Thai Buddhist praying or a New York Jew.

[tgeezer]

Lexitron: สวดมนต์ [V] pray

Syn. สาธยายมนต์, สวดมนต์ไหว้พระ

Sample:หากพระจะบริหารร่างกาย ท่านใช้วิธีเดินจงกรมและสวดมนต์ไปด้วย

"If the monk is to exercise, he will also have to practice walking meditation and utter prayers."

RID: สวด ก. ว่าเป็นทํานองอย่างพระสวดมนต์ เช่น สวดสังคหะ สวด พระอภิธรรม; (ปาก) นินทาว่าร้าย, ดุด่า, ว่ากล่าว, เช่น ถูก แม่สวด.

I am pretty sure that this is the formal praying, where on person leads and you respond, like all the best prayer (King James copy) it is mysterious enough to make it special. All in Pali and needs translating. like this: (ผู้ นำ) นะโม ตัสสะ ภะคะวะโต

(รับพร้อมกัน) อะระหะโต สัมมาสัมพุทธัสสะ repeated three times apparently. Pretty cool eh? better than latin!

I just happenned to have the little hand-book for kids 15 Bt at all good book-shops.

[withnail]

I was also under the understanding that อธิษฐาน was praying to your self and that สวดมนต์ was more like chanting, as tgeezer says, possibly after someone else. The second one would be a pre written chant.

[DavidHouston]

Lexitron: สวดมนต์ [V] pray

Syn. สาธยายมนต์, สวดมนต์ไหว้พระ

Sample:หากพระจะบริหารร่างกาย ท่านใช้วิธีเดินจงกรมและสวดมนต์ไปด้วย

"If the monk is to exercise, he will also have to practice walking meditation and utter prayers."

RID: สวด ก. ว่าเป็นทํานองอย่างพระสวดมนต์ เช่น สวดสังคหะ สวด พระอภิธรรม; (ปาก) นินทาว่าร้าย, ดุด่า, ว่ากล่าว, เช่น ถูก แม่สวด.

I am pretty sure that this is the formal praying, where on person leads and you respond, like all the best prayer (King James copy) it is mysterious enough to make it special. All in Pali and needs translating. like this: (ผู้ นำ) นะโม ตัสสะ ภะคะวะโต

(รับพร้อมกัน) อะระหะโต สัมมาสัมพุทธัสสะ repeated three times apparently. Pretty cool eh? better than latin!

I just happenned to have the little hand-book for kids 15 Bt at all good book-shops.

Your referencing to the บทสวด "อะระหะโต สัมมาสัมพุทธัสสะ" seems to be closer to prayer of praise, rather than a "catechism" or prayer of supplication or praise, is it not? Do you have an English translation of these lines?

This is an excerpt from a 2005 posting to ThaiVisa:

"Nammo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambhudasa (3X)"

"Honor to Him, the Blessed one, the Worthy One, the fully Enlightened

One"

[stateman]

I was also under the understanding that อธิษฐาน was praying to your self and that สวดมนต์ was more like chanting, as tgeezer says, possibly after someone else. The second one would be a pre written chant.

The chanting you mentioned was only when in a temple setting. The monk naturally does the leading. It is understood that there will always be someone who is not well versed in how to chant correctly, given the myriads of chantings. However, once one learns of such a chant, one would recite the entire chanting at home, or often.

Finally, is "prayer" as used by the Thais the same as "prayer" in Western religions?

David,

Not sure what your question really refers to. I'll take a stab at it.

IMO prayer is a communication between a person to God or the Enlightened One or to one's self, or to one's 'overself', whichever the case maybe. As I am sure you are well aware of praying in the West, I'll address the practice by Thais in Buddhism only.

The level of understanding among Thais in Buddhism varies greatly.

It ranges from the those who don't really understand the religion (beyond the rituals which one follows according to custom) who just go through the motion, to those who pray in the manner similar to prayers in the West which is to 'praise and seek something', to those who truly understand Buddhism.

Most Thais don't really understand Buddhism, despite being in a Buddhist country. It is at the level of don't understand even the bark of the Buddhist 'tree', which needless to say, don't understand the core of the religion. That is why you see so much corruption, trade in human flesh, slaughtering animals, gambling, illicit sex in a marriage, dishonesty and lies, stealing and robbing, etc. All so fundamental in the religion.

Then to the majority, doing 'boon' or merits for the sake of getting worldly reward in the future is widely practiced without really modifying one's own spiritual state.

Truly, Buddhism as in Theravas line practiced in Thailand, teaches a person to seek deliverance of the mind -liberation. Nirvana is the ultimate goal which is actually at the end of a very long and arduous practice. In actuality, most would be happy to make some gains in that direction by only a few steps in such a long road. Very few would be able to attain much fruits in this lifetime. There has always been few who do attain a lofty accomplishment, for which the society would find out and hundreds of thousands would flock to pay homage to. [Even today there still exists such persons.]

One then will not seek 'help' in all manners as praying in the West anymore. One is supposed to be brave and truly accept that any shortcomings one receives is but the manifestation of the result of karma (by one's own past action), a true believer in "one reaps what one sowed". One would not be afraid of death, but rather be afraid of rebirth - as rebirth will again start another cycle of making mistakes in one's life for which one has to come back again to repay for it. One would sincerely try to go as far as possible to reach a point of no return, so one would truncate such a cycle, which happens when one reaches Nirvana eventaully. Buddhist teaching is very detailed in describing certain other steps which characterised one at such levels who would come back for rebirth for no more than 7 lives, or 2 lives, or 1 life, etc.

By comparison, the Buddhism as practised in China and Japan, the Mahayan, is meant for the mass, and thus the teaching is simpler and easier for the mass to follow. One still prays for help when one encounters hardship. Thus you'll see praying to "Kuan-Yin" goddess (which according to legend, was a manifestation of one previous Buddha who already reached Nirvana, but steps back to 'help' get the mass to advance.) Individuals would chant, learn and meditate and attain a high level too, but probably not the mass - yet. There were lots of cases where people seek help from Kuan Yin and received help as in miracles. That is her task! Understand that when one is so mired in suffering, it is really hard for a layman to do anything serious. So just to be rid of the current suffering is much needed. Supposedly the faith thus attained will then lead one to see the fallacy of the earthly desire and practice. One then hopefully would 'behave' along the righteous path. Praying by Buddhist in such society is probably similar to praying in the West .

Besides praying, any serious Buddhist is supposed to meditate. Praying is one way to assist one to focus on the 'oneness' of the mind, which is very important in advancement. Meditation is the practice of maintaining the 'oneness'. This can be done in all postures, such as sitting, walking, or even in a daily life, etc. Meditation is like climbing a metal ladder (fire escape) outside a building, straight up. Most effective way to advance! Buddha reminded his disciples to go to the forest and meditate. And when one sees in Dharma (dhamma), one would see the Buddha.

[tgeezer]

Lexitron: สวดมนต์ [V] pray

Syn. สาธยายมนต์, สวดมนต์ไหว้พระ

Sample:หากพระจะบริหารร่างกาย ท่านใช้วิธีเดินจงกรมและสวดมนต์ไปด้วย

"If the monk is to exercise, he will also have to practice walking meditation and utter prayers."

RID: สวด ก. ว่าเป็นทํานองอย่างพระสวดมนต์ เช่น สวดสังคหะ สวด พระอภิธรรม; (ปาก) นินทาว่าร้าย, ดุด่า, ว่ากล่าว, เช่น ถูก แม่สวด.

I am pretty sure that this is the formal praying, where on person leads and you respond, like all the best prayer (King James copy) it is mysterious enough to make it special. All in Pali and needs translating. like this: (ผู้ นำ) นะโม ตัสสะ ภะคะวะโต

(รับพร้อมกัน) อะระหะโต สัมมาสัมพุทธัสสะ repeated three times apparently. Pretty cool eh? better than latin!

I just happenned to have the little hand-book for kids 15 Bt at all good book-shops.

Your referencing to the บทสวด "อะระหะโต สัมมาสัมพุทธัสสะ" seems to be closer to prayer of praise, rather than a "catechism" or prayer of supplication or praise, is it not? Do you have an English translation of these lines?

This is an excerpt from a 2005 posting to ThaiVisa:

"Nammo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambhudasa (3X)"

"Honor to Him, the Blessed one, the Worthy One, the fully Enlightened

One"

Way above my head! I am on 'ป ๒' The translation is in Thai anyway. This is in praise of พระรัตนตรัย mentions (ทำนองสังโยก) So I guess that is the sort of praying สวด is about. I haven't plucked up the courage to Wai any monks yet so don't think I will be up for it.

[Rikker]

Since this started as a thread about terminology, allow me to mention how Christianity in Thailand has adapted and invented terms, in hopes that it helps bridge the conceptual gap. I think most Thai Christians (although I'm less familiar with Catholicism, so this may be more Protestant) use the term อธิษฐาน, as does the Thai translation of the bible that I've read in. This term seems to be more associated with spontaneously expressing one's desires to a higher power (and the word is also found in a lot of pop songs, from my experience), as opposed to a traditional prayer or chant.

The term for a pre-written prayer would be a บทสวด or some variation on that, the word บท indicating that it's scripted. In my particular church we use สวดอ้อนวอน, which is always spontaneous prayer, and thus the noun form is คำสวดอ้อนวอน, since the phrase บทสวดอ้อนวอน also means a scripted prayer. For what it's worth, we call hymns เพลงสวด, literally "prayer songs", though I'm sure there are other terms for hymn, too.

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