Fahrenheit 911 Too Hot For Bangkok

[Tornado]

What do you make of this?

http://home.earthlink.net/~flight77/pentalawn.html

Thanks for this link CMT.

No plane debris! Look at the size of the hole! notice the left side of the building, not a blemish! wing impact?, wings ? and yes that lawn is in great shape.

Why hasnt the Amercian people rallied in force and asked pertinent questions?

Something is not right here and it is in full colour.

[stumonster]

No doubt.

http://www.instapundit.com/

Respectable big-time journalist friends

is this phrase meant to be hilarious?

[Tornado]

It seems by the posts made in this thread, that the majority do not support Bush on this forum. Why not come over to the http://bearpit.net and have your say there. The bearpit has been taken over by 7 Bushites - lets us even up the numbers as we are the majority. They need to be put in their place.

[ChiangMaiThai]

No plane debris! Look at the size of the hole! notice the left side of the building, not a blemish! wing impact?, wings ? and yes that lawn is in great shape.

Why hasnt the Amercian people rallied in force and asked pertinent questions?

I think it has something to do with the notion that if you even ask obvious questions like 'where is the wing impact?' and 'why is the lawn free from any and all debris?' that you're immediately labeled some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist. Whether this is basic psychology at play or successful brainwashing, I don't know.

And I don't know what happened on Sep 11.

But I do know that there are obvious questions that haven't been answered and probably never will be becauuse it seems too many of us have a pathological desire to look up to and trust someone, anyone, no matter what.

[Khun ?]

Did the plane hit with wings verticle or horizontal. How wide is the building area of impact shown in this picture. Would have to look it up but wasn't the thickness of that buildings wall quite hefty and are we looking at the back side of impact. No flames so I would say this may be several hours after the crash, remembering this plane had alotof fuel on board when it did hit. Remember impact at WTC was not the problem it was the heat that melted the support beams otherwise it would of only been a few floors damaged.

[Tornado]

Did the plane hit with wings verticle or horizontal. How wide is the building area of impact shown in this picture. Would have to look it up but wasn't the thickness of that buildings wall quite hefty and are we looking at the back side of impact. No flames so I would say this may be several hours after the crash, remembering this plane had alotof fuel on board when it did hit. Remember impact at WTC was not the problem it was the heat that melted the support beams otherwise it would of only been a few floors damaged.

http://home.earthlink.net/~flight77/pentalawn.html

[ChiangMaiThai]

Did the plane hit with wings verticle or horizontal. How wide is the building area of impact shown in this picture. Would have to look it up but wasn't the thickness of that buildings wall quite hefty and are we looking at the back side of impact. No flames so I would say this may be several hours after the crash, remembering this plane had alotof fuel on board when it did hit. Remember impact at WTC was not the problem it was the heat that melted the support beams otherwise it would of only been a few floors damaged.

You're looking at the front according to the official report.

All the eyewitnesses quoted by major news agencies say the plane hit the ground or brushed the ground.

You'd expect some marks on the lawn if it just 'brushed' along and if it hit the ground first like MSNBC said, then of course there would be major marks and wreckage.

"I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball." - James Madison Univ.

"...it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames...But I think the blessing here might have been that the airplane hit before it hit the building, it hit the ground, and a lot of energy might have gone that way. That's what it appeared like." - CNN

"What -- or who -- caused Flight 77 to hit ground first, diffusing most of its destructive energy before it slammed into the Pentagon?" - ESPN / MSN

I don't know.

[Tornado]

another interesting link http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymour/...n/pentagon2.htm

[Axel]

another interesting link http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymour/...n/pentagon2.htm

Didn't work for me, got:

The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

Could it be a illegal copy and unofficially requested to be removed?

The home-page is available.

[Boon Mee]

No doubt.

http://www.instapundit.com/

This site also supports the Swiftboat Veterans For Truth, (Which even Bill O'Rielly of Fox News has called "out of bounds" and the Rev. Sun Yung Moon's (a biiig Bush contributor and cult leader) newspaper paper the Washington Post reported as boldface liars.

hOWEVER, this site says

"MICKEY KAUS has much more on the SwiftVets story, and reports: "Respectable big-time journalist friends who met with the anti-Kerry vets recently found them a lot more credible than expected.", and, in support of the group, wait for it, "Indeed. But that "inconveniently messy issue of truth" is getting harder to avoid."

A few problems with the Swiftboat Vets...

(1) vet says he treated Kerry in Vietnam for one of his Purple Heart injuries. He says Kerry injured himself to try to get out of Vietnam.

*PROBLEM*: His name isn't on the records as the Dr. who treated Kerry, someone else's is. OH- he wasn't actually in Vietnam when Kerry was either.

(2) Kerry's immediate CO says Kerry's Bronze Star was undeserved, that despite Kerry's claims, there was no enemy fire that day.

*PROBLEM*: *HE* wrote the recomendation for Kerry. His own records show that "all 5 swiftboats were under" small arms and automatic fire. OH- he recieved a Bronz Star HIMSELF that same day for assisting another swiftboat that hit a mine. Also, he has previously campaigned for Kerry.

But yes, Bon Mee, no doubt they are "much more credible than you'd expect." You know, for liars. Cripes! even FOX news is more fair and balanced!

Let's put it in simple terms y'all can understand...It's left to innocent voters like me to figure out who's telling the truth. Do I believe a group of 256 Vietnam veterans who say Kerry's a liar, or do I believe John Kerry and Jim Rassman, who say 256 Vietnam veterans are liars? Gee, lemme think about it for a sec.

[drummer]

Let's put it in simple terms y'all can understand...It's left to innocent voters like me to figure out who's telling the truth. Do I believe a group of 256 Vietnam veterans who say Kerry's a liar, or do I believe John Kerry and Jim Rassman, who say 256 Vietnam veterans are liars? Gee, lemme think about it for a sec.

You still outa line, mate. You really might want to consider going back to college to take a class in logic. They may offer the class in some high schools closer to you, too. There are more logical errors, in the classical sense, in that statement, than I care to go into. Then, of course, there are the factual errors...

Anyway, for my money, I'd have a look at the original documents. No need for anyone to take anyone's word.

Lets see.... Says he treated Kerry, documents say ... otherwise!

Lets see ... Says there was no enemy that day .... documents say ... otherwise! In fact, *he* said otherwise, as early as 2 months ago, and before, when he campaigned for Kerry, and before, when he recieved a Bronze Star for the same day, and before, when in his own write ups for that day.

So, Bon Mee, do you think the Washington Post is liberal media? (They say that these guys are liars, after looking at the documents) Just curious.

[drummer]

I don't see any inconsistency. If the plane brushed the ground, flying in at low level, it most likely woulda bounced. None of the eyewitness says anything about it skidding. From the eyewitnesses, I got the impression that the wing touched down, and that was probably it. The plane was coming in rather fast, and those marks are probably out of those shots. Look fartehr back a few hindred meters and I'm sure you'd find something.

[Phil Conners]

America, the place where people think the moon landing is fake and pro-wrestling is real.

[falong]

America, the place where people think the moon landing is fake and pro-wrestling is real.

Pro wrestling isn't real?

[Khun ?]

looking at the top picture it looks to me that there is smoke and some orange color on the back side of the building. Bottom picture not much smoke or anything

other than smoldering on the back side of building so I would say the plane hit from the side we do not see.

Then again if we are talking Moore's take on these pics for sure it hit this side and

it was a delibertae attack so Haliburton would get the contract to rebuild the place.

[Boon Mee]

drummer-girl...your boy is toast and y'all in denial - big-time.

***: Just take a look at these Swift Boat Veterans for Truth related polling numbers. They don't look good for the Kerry campaign...

""During the week ending Aug. 8, 966,000 people visited the anti-Kerry group's Web site, 34,000 fewer than those who visited Kerry's official site, according to Nielsen/Net Ratings. The new CBS poll found Kerry winning 37 percent of veterans' votes to Bush's 55 percent.

(The two were tied at 46 percent after last month's Democratic National Convention, where Kerry highlighted his service.)"

Also, it looks like Kerry has hired an experienced new spokesman to handle these allegations...(heh, heh, heh

An angry dispute over a rescue in the river

A number of the combat commanders, fellow officers and other men who served with Sen. John Kerry in Vietnam challenge his accounts of combat heroism in a new book, "Unfit for Command" (Regnery Publishing), by John E. O'Neill, who took over command of Swift Boat PCF 94 from Lt. Kerry, and Jerome R. Corsi, who has written extensively about the Vietnam War protest movement. This is the last of three excerpts that include comparisons of Mr. Kerry's earlier published accounts to recollections of others who served with him.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040820-125031-5676r.htm

[Boon Mee]

For the final nail in the coffin for y'all in denial re. Waffles and his self-inflicted wounds...

The editor of the Chicago Tribune, who WAS THERE, is going to have his statement appear in tomorrow's Trib, saying SBVfT is lying about the kid in the loincloth incident. Let’s hope somebody finally sets the record straight, because so far as I am aware the Vietnamese don't dress up like they were playing Indians in a John Wayne western, and I'm sick of talking about a loincloth, or is that what VC wear before they wake up and put on their black pajamas?

CHICAGO, Aug. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- "There were three Swift Boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago -- three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

"One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other."

However, he's only going to say it once, and won't answer any further questions, probably because he's noticed that Kerry's camp has given about a dozen different versions of the incident. They've had the "unarmed lone VC", the "still armed lone VC", the "multiple VC", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons on both banks of the canal, with bullets flying everywhere." I'll bet that his statement makes sure he can still maintain his standing in a room full of journalists.

However the big complaint about this incident is how Kerry blended actions from a few days earlier, that day, folded them all into a story about shooting a lone (or not) VC, and make a career out of it. At this point let’s just give thanks that Kerry accumulated enough self-inflicted wounds to get out in four months, because who knows what dreck we'd have to wade through if he'd stayed for a full tour like everyone else.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories....02235783&EDATE=

[Gazza]

Remember impact at WTC was not the problem it was the heat that melted the support beams otherwise it would of only been a few floors damaged.

Ref WTC.

Heat from where? All the fuel was burnt off in the initial fireball when it impacted with the building. If there was so much heat after the impact where were the flames after the initial fireball, there was only smoke to be seen that was from burning office furniture.

Don't forget, if there was so much heat to melt the structural beams, why were the passports of the hi-jackers supposedly found in a readable condition.

I wonder why Bush didn't want an investigation into the actual attacks of that day.

Ref Pentagon.

I saw photos and read stories here and there shortly afterward the event about the plane 'hedge-hopping' before smashing into the side of the Pentagon. Yet photos showed tall street lamps undamaged right in front of the building.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser

Gazza

[penzman]

However the big complaint about this incident is how Kerry blended actions from a few days earlier, that day, folded them all into a story about shooting a lone (or not) VC, and make a career out of it.

How about approving bombing the sh1t out of 6000 or more Iraqi civilians from a distant continent ... Now there's a big career move

Just imagine what Kerry has to face from the media after all the cr@p the present government came up with, WMD, Nukes, imaginary hero stories (that g.i girl). and so on and so on and so on .

[drummer]

***: Just take a look at these Swift Boat Veterans for Truth related polling numbers. They don't look good for the Kerry campaign...

...

book, "Unfit for Command" (Regnery Publishing), by John E. O'Neill

say... 'drummer-girl' .... You have a new one all the time, don't ya? I just can't compete with wits as sharp as yours. I'll stick to not calling you names and using facts and reason to back up my positions.

Sure- and McCain has a black baby and Dukakis raped and murdered a whilte woman in D.C. Oh, and Ann Richards lets 8K inmates out of prison early in Texas whjile she was governer.

Despite the fact that Richards passed MAJOR reforms of the prison system, and every one of those prisoners were let out under her Republican predecessor's laws, Bush ran a NASTY ad compaign that blamed Richards for it. (some 100K got let out early the year before she was elected)

Fact is, most Americans aren't paying attention. When you tell a nasty lie about someone, as long as someone else is telling it for you, it sticks. Bush knows this very, very well.

BTW - John E. O'Neill was originally hired by Nixon to smear Kerry, when he was an anti-war protester back in the 70's. He's PAID EXPLICITLY to say what he says. Was then, is now.

[drummer]

For the final nail in the coffin for y'all in denial re. Waffles and his self-inflicted wounds...

The editor of the Chicago Tribune, who WAS THERE, is going to have his statement appear in tomorrow's Trib, saying SBVfT is lying about the kid in the loincloth incident. Let’s hope somebody finally sets the record straight, because so far as I am aware the Vietnamese don't dress up like they were playing Indians in a John Wayne western, and I'm sick of talking about a loincloth, or is that what VC wear before they wake up and put on their black pajamas?

CHICAGO, Aug. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- "There were three Swift Boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago -- three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

"One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other."

However, he's only going to say it once, and won't answer any further questions, probably because he's noticed that Kerry's camp has given about a dozen different versions of the incident. They've had the "unarmed lone VC", the "still armed lone VC", the "multiple VC", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons on both banks of the canal, with bullets flying everywhere." I'll bet that his statement makes sure he can still maintain his standing in a room full of journalists.

However the big complaint about this incident is how Kerry blended actions from a few days earlier, that day, folded them all into a story about shooting a lone (or not) VC, and make a career out of it. At this point let’s just give thanks that Kerry accumulated enough self-inflicted wounds to get out in four months, because who knows what dreck we'd have to wade through if he'd stayed for a full tour like everyone else.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories....02235783&EDATE=

Dude - he signed up for ****2 tours of duty****

Also, he won a BROZE STAR that day, not the silver.

There were 5 boats in the water that day, not 3.

PLEASE check your facts.

You are spouting all this drivel, making personal attacks on people who disagree. If your gonna use facts to support your accusations, please make them right. They are easy enough to check.

I am just looking at the facts and making reasoned arguments.

BTW- what about the Washington Post?

[Khun ?]

Heat that melted beams was at the WTC not the pentagon.

look at the pictures. Explain what you see smoke on the opposite side of the building with orange tint 20 meters high. Nothing on the side the picture was taken.

I did not know sadam and his sons had 6000 civilian friends then of course you may of been there at the time Penzman. I would really like to see this fuel system

that 1000's of gallons of fuel eveporate on impact, some of us already know JP8

caracteristics so please enlighten the industry of your knowledge of such things.

[drummer]

For the final nail in the coffin for y'all in denial re. Waffles and his self-inflicted wounds...

The editor of the Chicago Tribune, who WAS THERE, is going to have his statement appear in tomorrow's Trib, saying SBVfT is lying about the kid in the loincloth incident. Let’s hope somebody finally sets the record straight, because so far as I am aware the Vietnamese don't dress up like they were playing Indians in a John Wayne western, and I'm sick of talking about a loincloth, or is that what VC wear before they wake up and put on their black pajamas?

CHICAGO, Aug. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- "There were three Swift Boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago -- three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

"One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other."

However, he's only going to say it once, and won't answer any further questions, probably because he's noticed that Kerry's camp has given about a dozen different versions of the incident. They've had the "unarmed lone VC", the "still armed lone VC", the "multiple VC", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons on both banks of the canal, with bullets flying everywhere." I'll bet that his statement makes sure he can still maintain his standing in a room full of journalists.

However the big complaint about this incident is how Kerry blended actions from a few days earlier, that day, folded them all into a story about shooting a lone (or not) VC, and make a career out of it. At this point let’s just give thanks that Kerry accumulated enough self-inflicted wounds to get out in four months, because who knows what dreck we'd have to wade through if he'd stayed for a full tour like everyone else.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories....02235783&EDATE=

OK .... I read up on it..... You got your stories mixed up, Bon Mee.

The event where he got his Broze star had "multiple VC", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons", the "multiple VC backed by heavy weapons on both banks of the canal, with bullets flying everywhere."

The event where he got his Silver Star was with the "unarmed lone VC", the "still armed lone VC" The Swiftboat guys say that he was an unarmed teenager in a loincloth.

However, the damage report from that day, which record new 3 bullet holes, and multiple, corroborated reports from the different boats, say Kerry jumped out of his boat, ran down a VC, killed him, and brought back his B 40 rocket launcher, with a shell loaded.

This would be the "lone VC"

(From the New York Times)

Are you deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue?

ALSO, funding of this group comes largely from a longtime frind and associate of Karl Rove, and from the ... wait for it .... wait for it .... GEORGE H. W. BUSH PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

No wonder Kerry is pressing charges. he's got an airtight case.

[Boon Mee]

Back to "Two Cheeseburgers" Moore for a sec...the main theme of this thread:

WASHINGTON - Sgt. Peter Damon, who lost his right arm and left hand in Iraq, never set out to be a bit player in presidential politics and is furious at Michael Moore for making him one in "Fahrenheit 9/11."

"It ticked me off," Damon said of the 10-second clip in the Bush-bashing documentary that shows him being treated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington.

"I just feel it was wrong and I was violated in some way, seeing myself up there on the screen," said Damon, 31, of Brockton, Mass.

Lt. Col. Chester Buckenmaier, the anesthesiologist who treated Damon at the 21st Combat Support Hospital in Iraq and later at Walter Reed, said he also was angered at the Moore film after he took Damon to see it in Bethesda, Md.

"I was appalled. This was Joseph Goebbels-type propaganda," Buckenmaier said, referring to the Nazi propaganda chief.

Moore took "a very positive thing we're doing for soldiers" who lost limbs and "used it to tell a lie," Buckenmaier said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/222345p-191015c.html

[drummer]

Back to "Two Cheeseburgers" Moore for a sec...the main theme of this thread:

WASHINGTON - Sgt. Peter Damon, who lost his right arm and left hand in Iraq, never set out to be a bit player in presidential politics and is furious at Michael Moore for making him one in "Fahrenheit 9/11."

"It ticked me off," Damon said of the 10-second clip in the Bush-bashing documentary that shows him being treated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington.

"I just feel it was wrong and I was violated in some way, seeing myself up there on the screen," said Damon, 31, of Brockton, Mass.

Lt. Col. Chester Buckenmaier, the anesthesiologist who treated Damon at the 21st Combat Support Hospital in Iraq and later at Walter Reed, said he also was angered at the Moore film after he took Damon to see it in Bethesda, Md.

"I was appalled. This was Joseph Goebbels-type propaganda," Buckenmaier said, referring to the Nazi propaganda chief.

Moore took "a very positive thing we're doing for soldiers" who lost limbs and "used it to tell a lie," Buckenmaier said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/222345p-191015c.html

You're on a roll- "drummer-girl", then "2 cheeseburgers moore"Maybe you could get a gig writing for Leno.

Anyway, I'm afraid you are still missing the point, Boon Mee.

To convince someone, you need to use facts. So...

Good:

M. Moore's use of this scene, this scene and this scene was like Goebbels because A, B, and C.

Bad:

Someone (an Army anestheologist) said M.Moore was a Goebbels type propagandist.

Use facts, not heresay. (The records of the Swiftboats are facts, as are the bullet holes and the rocket launcher he brought back; Kerry's and the swiftboat's statements are hearsay)

Also, I bring everyone's attention to "Damon said of the 10-second clip "

Hmmm.... lets seee, he was shown 10 seconds of the film and decided Moore was a propagandist? Sounds like he was fully informed. As I recall, the parts of the movie filmed at Walter Reed was considerable longer than 10 seconds.

Also, who showed him the clip? who decided which 10 seconds to show? Why did they decide to show only 10 seconds? Was it was because it was they had an illegal copy?

[ChiangMaiThai]

All the White House wants to do is to tell the truth, spread peace, love and freedom and help foreign people in need.

Its really quite simple.

How dare anyone suggest that money or power could possibly influence or corrupt a human being! Blasphemous I tell you!

Get out of here with your crazy talk!

[Axel]

Ten pages of interesting posts and I still don't know if Fahrenheit 911 is too hot for Bangkok.

Perhaps the un-educated masses in LoS should not see it. Myself, for one, is completely mixed up and don't know what to believe anymore.

Seems there are two guys who want to become President of their land. Checking on their war history, the one served honorably in Texas and the other one in Viet Nam.

For the Texas-applicant can't check too much as apparently some files were misplaced. For the VietNam-fellow it seems now, after some 35 years, that he was highly decorated by mistake. Well, mistakes happen but now, after such long time witnesses come forward? Why did they not open their mouths straight away? Did this fellow award himself a couple of bronze and silver stars and 3 more for injury? Was there no superior at that time who checked the facts of the Navy Lt.?

Can the award proposals and decisions be checked or are they lost as well?

So many unanswered questions, maybe for that reason too hot for Thailand?

Give me a break guys.

[drummer]

For the Texas-applicant can't check too much as apparently some files were misplaced.

...

Was there no superior at that time who checked the facts of the Navy Lt.?

Can the award proposals and decisions be checked or are they lost as well?

(1) Actually, the files were found afterall. Seems the inital attempts were coming up short because the searchers had wrong information. The records, at least, show that Junior was unpaid during the 2 disputed months.

(2) Yes, there were superiors to Kerry. The Navy does not hand out medals without multiple confirmations of the act of heroism. Those records are not lost. In fact, **all** of the written reports, including the stories by every member of the Swiftboat Vets up until 3 months ago(except John O'Niell), supported Kerry's version. As does the physical evidence ... i.e. bullet holes + rocket launchers.

This is half of why the Swiftboat ads are so eregious. They are as obvious of a lie as the "Sen. McCain's Black Baby ads" from 2000. (he adopted a Combodian orphan and Bush, in the primaries of 2000, put out ads that suggested he was having an affair with a black woman to get a "black baby" I don't care what politics you hold, those kinds of lies are unbefitting an public office holder- whether it be the presidency or the local school board.

In fact, my own politics are in the center. Bush in particular is just a lying, cheating, stealing criminal.

[Axel]

Thanks drummer, confirms what I thought.

Politics is a dirty business but even in Thailand cannot escape from US-election campaign. So for sure, we should be able to watch legally the Fahrenheit 911, to make up our own mind(s) and compare with CNN, BBC, BKK-Post, Nation and whatever else we can get.

Wonder what the Thais think about, although I believe most people are not really interested what's going on in the States, probably not even in LoS.

[britmaveric]

Bush in particular is just a lying, cheating, stealing criminal.

Bit strong mate- this is what I refer to - you are making the same egregious allegations that you are complaining about. W has been smeared probably worse than what Kerry is getting - so in my eyes Faire is Faire! (payback)