No More Petrol 95 And E-20 Folly

[Hog Head]

Bangkok Post reports today that the margin on petrol 95 is 10 stang per litre, and as I suspected, The Nation reports that Bangchak Petroleum will stop selling petrol 95 Dec. 1, 07.

The Nation links are not online long, so read it now:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/11/14...ss_30056071.php

Petrol 91 will be next to be removed from the market. Perhaps the Energy Minister could explain what the owners or the estimated 23 million motorcycles and 500,000 cars that CANNOT run on gasohol are to do?

The government is expected to begin promotion of E-20 (20%) gasohol in Dec 07 with Bangchak beginning to offer E-20 in January 08.

It will be very interesting to see the manufacturers compatability statements on E-20 as to my knowledge the Ford Focus is the only car in the Thai market certified to run on E-20. I will research this tomorrow to confirm

E-20 is a chicken and egg question. The Excise Department refuses to reduce the excise tax on E-20 vehicles so there is no incentive for the manufacturers to offer the cars. Until there are vehicles capable of using the fuel, where is the market, or is it just to be forced upon the consumer?

This is either utter madness, or blatant corruption.

The government needs to stop blindly supporting those who own the ethanol companies, and support the Thai consumer. Make petrol 91 and 95 available for those that must have it.

[Jareddiving]

Well they say so many things.

[PeaceBlondie]

I cannot get the link to the Bangkok Post now. That was fast. I have a 2003 Honda CBR which still uses carburetor in its 2007 model, probably 2008. And I doubt my carbureted 1997 Nissan NV is set up for ethanol.

[culicine]

I've had 91 ethnol in my 2004 civic and it's rubbish. Poor consumption and lowered performance. Per km, it worked out more expensive than the regular 91. Will petrol companies fork out millions to compensate drivers for damaged engines due to long term use of ethanol? The push for ethanol us is obviously to feed the pocket or influential persons in that business and has nothing to do with energy conservation. Drivers of sedans don;t have much choice - virtually no diesel driven sedans are here, and only really the ford focus is properly designed to run on e-10/20. Could be a boon for ford in the coming years! Anyway I don;t see 91 being phased out anytime soon (hopefully!), or I might be looking for another car..

[Hog Head]

I've had 91 ethnol in my 2004 civic and it's rubbish. Poor consumption and lowered performance. Per km, it worked out more expensive than the regular 91. Will petrol companies fork out millions to compensate drivers for damaged engines due to long term use of ethanol? The push for ethanol us is obviously to feed the pocket or influential persons in that business and has nothing to do with energy conservation. Drivers of sedans don;t have much choice - virtually no diesel driven sedans are here, and only really the ford focus is properly designed to run on e-10/20. Could be a boon for ford in the coming years! Anyway I don;t see 91 being phased out anytime soon (hopefully!), or I might be looking for another car..

It is official government policy to substitute gasohol for both petrol 91 and 95.

The Energy Minister backed off and stated that petrol 95 would continue to be available after the car companies would not toe the line and certify that their cars are ethanol safe.

Last week that same Energy Minister removed the Oil Fund levy from all fuels but petrol 95, getting the oil companies to do the dirty work for him and continue with the policy to withdraw petrol. This put the oil companies in a position where they only make 10 stang a litre on petrol 95, so naturally they will discontinue the sale of 95, and sell more profitable E-10

[Hog Head]

Well they say so many things.

The one thing they are saying very loud and clear is that the oil companies do not make any money on petrol 95 and will stop selling it.

This is due to the Energy Minister reducing the oil fund levy by 40 stang/litre on all fuels but 95

Stay tuned for the withdrawl of petrol 91.

What they are not saying is why the unwavering support for ethanol producers, in the face of known incompatibility problems for E-10 and with the exception of the few new Focus models, zero market for E-20. Granted there are new E-20 vehicles coming on line like the Jazz due on Mar. 08, but the number will be very small.

[initiala4]

I highly doubt that the government people themselves will even pump these E-20.

[Digger]

Presumably Mercedes has already certified all their vehicles can run on Gasahol, hence the powers that be dont care about the guy who drives the motorbike.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

I'm running my '94 Volvo gas guzzler on gasohol-95 since it became first available. I did NOT notice any increase in consumption (that car has a very high consumption anyway....) and also the power is exactly as when i use regular 95 petrol. No difference whatsoever.

HOWEVER what will i do with my motorbike if normal petrol will be phased out? It can take 91 and 95 (i am right now using the very first tank of 95 in it just to test - it seems to have a very slight power increase) but it is a TWO-STROKE - and ethanol is well known to dissolve/remove oil, while this is a wanted effect in cleaning, it will certainly mean "death" for the two-stroke which lives of oil-mixed-to-fuel.

And no, i will NOT get a four-stroke just because of that! Unless the government/oil companies/ethanol pushers buy one for me.

With best regards.....

Thanh

[corkscrew]

Presumably Mercedes has already certified all their vehicles can run on Gasahol, hence the powers that be dont care about the guy who drives the motorbike.

I have no idea if my cars will run on Gasahol.

[Upcountry]

For the Nation link, try this:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/pag...amp;id=30056071

I've been able to buy 95 at some stations around my town, but with this new change, I think it's a kick in the A that I should hurry up and sell. Getting a fill-up on the highway has been tricky enough up to now.

And here I thought that the current (interim) government's kind turn for old car owners was the last word for a while.

[Rdrokit]

Went to an Esso station in Korat last week and they do not carry regular 95 anymore only 95 with gasahol

[VocalNeal]

Just looked in the manual for my new Suzuki pickup and it says "...blends of this type maybe used in your vehicle if they are no more than 10% ethanol". So I guess I won't have to supervise the guys until January

[Upcountry]

BTW, what do Bangchak Petroleum stations look like? What is the logo?

Is it the one with the green leaf?

I think I've been getting 95 at PTT.

[PeaceBlondie]

I assume it was 95 benzene that Jet was selling yesterday, at 32.94 baht per liter, beween Hang Dong and Chiang Mai, roughly US$3.78 per US gallon! If you need it, the price is unimportant.

[Upcountry]

Ah, Jet! That's where I've been getting my gas!

Well, anyone know if scotch or cellophane tape is okay to use on the shade film on the inside of my car door glass? (serious question, because I don't know)

I need to compose "for sale" sign in Thai.

[Thaiboxer]

The standard for gasohol seems to be 10% ethanol/90% gasoline. According to my research on the subject, cars of "recent manufacture" can run alright on gasohol with 10% ethanol. Where they draw the line for "recent manufacture", I'm not sure. Somebody once mentioned that any cars made after 2000 were ok. Gasohol would be bad for older cars as it would eat up the fuel system components. I'm not sure what it would do to engine gaskets, but it could create problems there as alcohol burns hotter than regular gasoline. If the government is talking about having 20% ethanol, those vehicles would need tough fuel systems/engine gaskets to handle that mixture.

Perhaps all this talk is just bluffing....I remember a few years ago when some BKK mayor was pushing for a law to get all vehicles 20 years old or older off the roads. With so many oldies out there (including ours), that law never materialized. If 95 gasoline gets taken off the market, that will cause a big uproar from all the vehicle owners who require it. However, if they take 91 away as well, that would be like declaring war on most vehicle owners nationwide!

I remember there was also talk of phasing out those crazy, green BKK minibuses "by 2007". That has yet to happen!

[Upcountry]

The uproar happened a while ago, and the interim government canceled the previous plan to "ban" 95 octane gasoline.

What seems to be happening now is a market decision to drop 95. There's nothing, as far as I know, to stop all the other gas companies from dropping 95 in favor of gasohol other than availability (which was part of the reason for dropping the ban). The market speaks.

I've been unwilling to face it, but the next government (PPP?) is more than likely going to reinstate the ban on 95 anyway. Even if id doesn't gas companies are obviously going to look at the diminishing market for 95 (based on 95-only cars that can't handle gasohol).

As far as "recent manufacture", it depends on make for the most part. Some mid-90's cars can handle E10, but I don't know about E20.

UC

[cm-happy]

The local JET station sells only 91 gasoline or 95 gasahol. There is a 3 B price differential between them with the 91 gasoline being the most expensive.

Cheap Charlie that I am, have been using the gasohol. It seems to work fine. Am driving an Altis, except the gasahol does not seem to be as fuel efficient as gasoline.

[Upcountry]

I have voiced my gut reaction that Bangchak Petroleum's decision to drop 95 gasoline is a sign of a new market-driven trend that is independent of the current government policy (though the gov't decision to promote E20 is certainly key here - they just didn't ban 95 gas).

I'd really like to hear from other readers of this forum about this. Do you have good evidence to agree with me, or do you think this a sort of "isolated case"?

[Hog Head]

I have voiced my gut reaction that Bangchak Petroleum's decision to drop 95 gasoline is a sign of a new market-driven trend that is independent of the current government policy (though the gov't decision to promote E20 is certainly key here - they just didn't ban 95 gas).

I'd really like to hear from other readers of this forum about this. Do you have good evidence to agree with me, or do you think this a sort of "isolated case"?

Read my post re the Energy Minister is deceitful in this forum

The government is steadfastly on the long stated path to remove both petrol 91 and 95 from the market, and by playing with the Oil Fund levy, are just getting the oil companies to do their dirty work. No they did not ban 95, but simply put the oil companies in a position where there is no profit in selling petrol so gasohol only it is.

The fact that a very large number of Thai motorists cannot use the stuff matters far less than supporting the ethanol industry, that sprang up overnight as a result of the governments gasohol policy. There is a huge ethanol surplus and more coming on line.

The rub is that the majority know squat about the technical issues and only look at the price, hence the market. Those that are in the know, continue to buy petrol for either technical or economic reasons.

Lets not forget that the car manufacturers did not kowtow to the government and certify that their cars are E-10 compatible.

Search the archives for my comments on the technical issues last year.

Robert

[Upcountry]

Interesting points, Robert,

I did a search on "Energy Minister is deceitful" (actuall "Energy Minister deceitful") and could only come up with this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...ister+deceitful

Would you mind pointing us to the thread you want us to see?

[culicine]

There is a huge ethanol surplus and more coming on line.

So if they stopped the useage of regular 91 and 95 tomorrow, there would be enough gasohol for the millions of benzene-driven vehicles in LoS? And there is a guaranteed supply with no likelihood of shortages?

[Upcountry]

Today I took my car out to wash it and fill it up. I went to the Jet station that had 95 the last time I went there. Not today! I didn't believe the attendant when he told me to go to Shell, but I had nothing to loose. Fortunately, the Shell down the street did have it again (not the last time I checked). The attendant there said only one other Shell outside of Muang had it.

I love my old car, but... time to sell, indeed!

[hakku]

I think the oil companies can just increase the price of 95 fuel a bit to increase their margin. The reason their margin now is only 10 satang is because ptt selling price of 95 gives them that margin. Once ptt stops selling 95 the price cap is gone and they can sell it at whatever margin for people who want / need it. that should be fine i think, as long s they don't prohibit it.... For the rest if your vehicle can handle it, gasohol is fine, the caloric value of ethanol is a bit lower the regular fuel, that gives you higher consumption for the same performance.

my 2c

[Upcountry]

Three things I hate about using gasohol in my older car:

1. The lower caloric value

2. Corrosion of parts not not designed for gasohol

3. Evaporation (they say that you should fill up just prior to use, not if you plan to park for a while)

Newer cars may be better at dealing with these issues, but older ones are not.

Point taken about the higher price. Paid more than 32 for 95 gas today, and I'd be happy to do that if I could get it where and when I need it. One thing to find a station around town, but on a long distance trip it can be more of a problem. Been there, hassled with that. So, yes, it may be available if you can find it, but....

[Hog Head]

Interesting points, Robert,

I did a search on "Energy Minister is deceitful" (actuall "Energy Minister deceitful") and could only come up with this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...ister+deceitful

Would you mind pointing us to the thread you want us to see?

Here is the toned down version:

ENERGY MINISTER IS DECIETFUL

The Ministry of Energy is using the Oil Fund Levy to get the oil traders to do their dirty work for them in eliminating petrol 95 from the market.

As of Nov 5. 07 , with the exception of petrol 95, the levy for all fuels was reduced by 40 stang per litre. The pump price to the Consumer remains the same, and this 40 stang goes right into the pockets of the oil traders. Margins on oil trading have become very thin, and this move means that the oil companies earn 40 stang per litre less on petrol 95. This is a very strong economic incentive, and as stated by the President of Bangkok Petroleum, will force oil traders to drop petrol 95 from the market. .

The government has had a long standing policy to remove petrol 95 from the market and backed off on this policy after the car manufacturers would not certify that their vehicles are 100% gasohol compliant. The fact that there are vehicles in use that cannot use gasohol is undisputable, While I take exception to the governments position that this numbers 500,00 vehicles, the fact remains that a considerable number of Thais simply cannot use gasohol.

Energy Minister, Piysavasti Amranand, promised to make petrol 95 available as long as vehicles incapable of using gasohol were in operation. The Energy Minister is fully aware of the economic squeeze he has put the oil traders in. His current economic disincentive is simply a well thought through means to achieve the governments goal of removing petrol 95, while he can claim to keep his hands clean and maintain his promise.

Mr Energy Minister, be honest in your approach, and think of the Thai consumers that must have petrol 95.

[pete_r]

There is a huge ethanol surplus and more coming on line.

So if they stopped the useage of regular 91 and 95 tomorrow, there would be enough gasohol for the millions of benzene-driven vehicles in LoS? And there is a guaranteed supply with no likelihood of shortages?

The ethanol supply is not quite there yet... 22 ethanol factories are under construction, but only 5 are operational so far with an output of around 500,000 litres per day (gasoline consumption in Thailand is around 20 millions litres per day).

When all the factories are completed in 2-3 years, on the paper the production will be more than enough to supply E10 for the whole country and have some ethanol to spare, so the government's plan may well be to introduce some E20 in the near future.

[madjbs]

How do we distill our own petrol in order to get rid of the ethanol?

[Upcountry]

According to a Bangkok Post correspondent I communicated with, one big problem is the quality of the fuel at various stations. Many do not do a good job with regular gas, let alone gasohol. I know from experience, that I used to get better performance with 95 form some stations and not from others.

Today I found that the stations selling 95 have changed since I last bought gas (I try not to drive much). There may be only 2 or so stations in town selling it. Very frustrating.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Upcountry