Alphabet Question

[flying]

Hi All

I know this is probably somewhere but I have not found it.

I am learning the alphabet & understand the theory is like A is for Apple etc. Like we did with english as children.

But now I see Gaw is for Gai etc. Fine but what about the ones that seem to use the same sound? Like Chaw-Ching & Chaw Chang & even Chaw-Ga Cher?

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to type the letters

Anyway I am working with a book & find this to be odd. They cannot sound the same right? Or?

Thanks for any info

[AjarnP]

Hi All

I know this is probably somewhere but I have not found it.

I am learning the alphabet & understand the theory is like A is for Apple etc. Like we did with english as children.

But now I see Gaw is for Gai etc. Fine but what about the ones that seem to use the same sound? Like Chaw-Ching & Chaw Chang & even Chaw-Ga Cher?

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to type the letters

Anyway I am working with a book & find this to be odd. They cannot sound the same right? Or?

Thanks for any info

Hi Flying,

No, all the "Chaw"s do not sound the same as they fall into different classes of consonant. I'm sure your book will give you the class of each and thus the tone rules that apply. I could detail it here but it will be better for you to find it out from your book that way it will 'stick' better... It does for me anyway

happy learning

AjarnP

Edited November 15, 2007 by AjarnP

[DavidHouston]

I think it would be best to try to expand your understanding of what characteristics constitute a given letter of the alphabet. In English, for example, with certain exceptions, any consonant has a one for one relationship with a single sound. And, the only characteristic of that consonant is the sound. "M" always has the same sound. ("C" has at least two English sounds as an exception). English vowels do not have a one-to-one relationship with sounds. Consider how many sounds the letter "A" can represent.

Thai is at once more complex and more simple. In the majority of instances an initial consonant always (with exceptions) produces a single sound. All vowels, dipthongs, and vowel combinations always produce a single sound (with exceptions). That is the easy part. The mind-expanding part is the fact that a given Thai consonant carries with it information other than one sound. Some consonants designate a different sound at the beginning of a syllable than at the end. A consonant in addition to denoting a sound also carries information critical to producing the tone of the syllable. All consonants fall into one of three classes: mid, high, and low. These classes provide information regarding the tone of the syllable and, in combination with vowel length, final consonant, and in some instances tone mark, will indicate the tone of the syllable.

The above description tells you nothing substantive but may help you understand why there are at least two consonants for many sounds. You will find many sources that can help you understand the Thai system of writing, sounding syllables, and tone indicators. See "Learn to Read Thai in a Day", a sponsor of this site. In addition, you may wish to reference http://www.thai-language.com/?ref=consonants, http://www.thai-language.com/?ref=vowels and http://www.thai-language.com/?ref=tones

These concepts are initially confusing; they are to me too. An alternative but very effective method of learning how to read is to ignore all the rules and learn to read like a Thai child does, by getting a teacher and learning by rote the consonants, vowels, and tones. (See for example the three book series "หัดอ่านภาษาไทยแบบไหม่"; someone can read the name of this book for you.) Since Thai is much more regular than English is, for example, if you can read and write English all the hard work is behind you. Learn Thai and enjoy!

I wish you the best of luck.

[flying]

Hi Flying,

No, all the "Chaw"s do not sound the same as they fall into different classes of consonant. I'm sure your book will give you the class of each and thus the tone rules that apply. I could detail it here but it will be better for you to find it out from your book that way it will 'stick' better... It does for me anyway

happy learning

AjarnP

Hi Ajarn

Well my book is like a little childrens type

Elephant on the cover. I have another called Writing & reading Thai by

Sriwilai Ponmanee I just got whie in Chiang Mai at Suriwongs.

That one seems compicated but I need to look again & try to undestand it I guess.

Also what got me wondering is these recordings on this site

Lang Hub

They sound the same on those dont they?

Thanks though & I will look at these.

Mike

[Lizphuket]

I remember experiencing the same confusion when I started learning to read and write Thai a couple of years ago. I learnt to write the actual characters using a kids book (you can find them at any booksellers, Lotus Tesco etc) which is the equivalent of A for Apple, B for (hmm I can't remember now). If you can't find one ask an assistant for a Gor Gai, Kor Kai book.

Not sure if this will help but just as A is for apple ...... Z is for Zebra, Gor is what the first consonant ก is called. The Gai bit is showing the character used in a word ไก่ which is chicken. The second letter is ข Kor and the example word is ไข่ kai which is egg. If you are just starting, I suggest that you concentrate on learning to write the letters first in order. Using the things that I learned about memorising things when I was doing a psychology degree, I ended up making up a silly story about a chicken laying an egg near a buffalo who was wearing a bell etc. I can probably recreate it for you if you think it would help but you need to create something that helps you visualise the consonants. The next stage is to get to grips with the groups of consonants which will help with the tones and pronunciation. I can strongly recommend Thai for Beginners by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. You may need to work through it slowly a few times but I promise you it will be worth it. This will also help you with the vowels which can be a bit of nightmare.

Hope this advice isn't too noddy for you but I accepted that I was aged about 4 or 5 when it came to learning the alphabet and my friends Thai kids thought it was hilarious.

Regards

Liz Phuket

[katastrophic]

I remember experiencing the same confusion when I started learning to read and write Thai a couple of years ago. I learnt to write the actual characters using a kids book (you can find them at any booksellers, Lotus Tesco etc) which is the equivalent of A for Apple, B for (hmm I can't remember now). If you can't find one ask an assistant for a Gor Gai, Kor Kai book.

Not sure if this will help but just as A is for apple ...... Z is for Zebra, Gor is what the first consonant ก is called. The Gai bit is showing the character used in a word ไก่ which is chicken. The second letter is ข Kor and the example word is ไข่ kai which is egg. If you are just starting, I suggest that you concentrate on learning to write the letters first in order. Using the things that I learned about memorising things when I was doing a psychology degree, I ended up making up a silly story about a chicken laying an egg near a buffalo who was wearing a bell etc. I can probably recreate it for you if you think it would help but you need to create something that helps you visualise the consonants. The next stage is to get to grips with the groups of consonants which will help with the tones and pronunciation. I can strongly recommend Thai for Beginners by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. You may need to work through it slowly a few times but I promise you it will be worth it. This will also help you with the vowels which can be a bit of nightmare.

Hope this advice isn't too noddy for you but I accepted that I was aged about 4 or 5 when it came to learning the alphabet and my friends Thai kids thought it was hilarious.

Regards

Liz Phuket

Hi Liz,

I'd appreciate it if you could post your memorising story for the Thai alphabet, I'm sure it will be better than anything I can come up with! Maybe there are other members with similar stories that may help tickle the brain cells into action. Thanks for your contribution anyway.

[flying]

Thank you all for some very helpful advice.

I will try to digest it all.

I hope you right David when you said......

Since Thai is much more regular than English is, for example, if you can read and write English all the hard work is behind you. Learn Thai and enjoy!

Thanks again

Mike

[stateman]

Hi All

I know this is probably somewhere but I have not found it.

I am learning the alphabet & understand the theory is like A is for Apple etc. Like we did with english as children.

But now I see Gaw is for Gai etc. Fine but what about the ones that seem to use the same sound? Like Chaw-Ching & Chaw Chang & even Chaw-Ga Cher?

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to type the letters

Anyway I am working with a book & find this to be odd. They cannot sound the same right? Or?

Thanks for any info

I'll qualify that my comments below is based on my own attempt to reflect the sounds of the alphabets. The writing of the sound may be different from you book, depending on what book you use. I just try to help you understand ... so don't be bothered by my way of representing the sounds.

I think you already found that the Thai alphabet/consonet sound doesn't quite correspond to the English alphabet/consonent sound, as in your good examples.

In your specific examples Chaw-Ching & Chaw Chang & even Chaw-Ga Cher are like this: Chaw-Ching sounds different from the two below, and it belongs to the high sound group.

Chaw Chang & Chaw-Ga Cher in Thai has identical sounds. The latter is hardly found anymore.

There are other groups which behave similar to the Chaw Chang & Chaw-Ga Cher, which have identical sounds. I'll try to cover these identical sound ones below so you get a feel as to what you are faced with.

Khor: from either Khor-kai or Khor-Kuad. The latter is practically retired. This one belongs to the high sound group, and thus sounds different from the Khor below.

Khor has the identical sound betw Khor-kon and Khor-rakung, with the latter having limited use. (I believe Khor-kon is probably the ONLY use nowadays.)

This one belongs to the low sound group.

Dor can be from either Dor-chada or Dor-dek and the sound is identical. The latter is the one in common use. Its sound belongs to the middle sound group.

Tor is a sound from either Tor-Tao or Tor-Patuck. The latter has limited use. This Tor sounds different from the Tor below. It belongs to the middle sound group.

Tor is a sound from either Tor-pootao or Tor-taharn. This belongs to the low sound group. Its sound is different from the Tor above and below.

Thor is a sound form either Thor-Suntarn or Thor-tung (identical sound). This one belongs to the high sound group. Its sound is different from the Tor above.

Saw is the identical sound from either one of the three as follows: ศ ส ษ

Sounds extremely confusing if you try to study Thai from books! Either audio/video is a must, unless you do like many TV members who use the live sound of the gf's.

As to why there are so many alphabets with identical sounds in a group, well, it is because these are alphabets taken from Sanskrit. My Indian colleague told me that in Indian, these alphabets in the same group (which in Thai have identical sound) carry different sounds! He made the distinct sounds for me, but I couldn't make out the differences! Probably the same way you are feeling now!

Be that those in the same group which in Thai carry identical sound, many are commonly used, while many others are hardly used. Some are there just to hold the historical places, with token uses for identification purposes.

Once you get help from the audio/video in making the right sound, you need to say an alphabet with its identifier, e.g. Chaw Chang or Chaw-Ga Cher. Always do that. Thais do that also.

If I make you more confused than when you started, I am sorry.

In due time you'll find that you can mostly ignore the retired alphabets, or nearly so. Dealing with only the ones in common use, you will find that they are doable!

Good luck!

[mangkorn]

stateman: I have a question that's been nagging at me for awhile, relevant to your example, "Saw is the identical sound from either one of the three as follows: ศ ส ษ "

When Thai people use abbreviations in speech, using just the sound of the letter, as in proper nouns, or in automobile license tags, how can you know whether the letter is a ศ or ส or ษ ? How do people know what word is being abbreviated when only the sound is pronounced, but not the identifier of the letter itself?

How can the police know what license tag to look for if you only say "saw"?

[stateman]

stateman: I have a question that's been nagging at me for awhile, relevant to your example, "Saw is the identical sound from either one of the three as follows: ศ ส ษ "

When Thai people use abbreviations in speech, using just the sound of the letter, as in proper nouns, or in automobile license tags, how can you know whether the letter is a ศ or ส or ษ ? How do people know what word is being abbreviated when only the sound is pronounced, but not the identifier of the letter itself?

How can the police know what license tag to look for if you only say "saw"?

It is like in the US, when one says c or z, often you'd say c as in cat, or z as in zebra.

Or the name spelling for cathy or kathy, you'd say c like cat or k like king.

Or to spell smith, you may say smith - common spelling.

The same in Thai. If it is spelling a common word, equiv. to English name smith, you just say 'saw', and the listener knows which one. Many names are common names, so the listener knows which 'saw' to use.

When the speaker spells a name which is uncommon, or the license plate which can be any of the three, Thais typically has to use the identifier. They don't use the long version which you read in the basic language book though. Often they don't say

ศ saw-sala, ษ saw-rue-see.

I often hear them said as: ศ saw-kaw (that is the saw which is written similar to khor-kwai, where you start with the khor-kwai, and add the tail to make it saw), ส saw sua (as tiger) is short enough so it gets used here, ษ is referred to as saw bau (the saw which is written as in bau-bi-mai, leaf, then you add the short stroke to make it saw).

As for the police calling out a 'saw' on radio, it is his job to identify which 'saw' is meant; in the same manner as an American army radio operator has the duty to call out charlie for c, bravo for b, etc.

[DavidHouston]

I often hear them said as: ศ saw-kaw (that is the saw which is written similar to khor-kwai, where you start with the khor-kwai, and add the tail to make it saw), ส saw sua (as tiger) is short enough so it gets used here, ษ is referred to as saw bau (the saw which is written as in bau-bi-mai, leaf, then you add the short stroke to make it saw).

I hear Thai people say "saw kaw" and "saw baw" but never "saw law". "Saw" by itself always implies ส เสือ.

Edited November 21, 2007 by DavidHouston

[stateman]

I often hear them said as: ศ saw-kaw (that is the saw which is written similar to khor-kwai, where you start with the khor-kwai, and add the tail to make it saw), ส saw sua (as tiger) is short enough so it gets used here, ษ is referred to as saw bau (the saw which is written as in bau-bi-mai, leaf, then you add the short stroke to make it saw).

I hear Thai people say "saw kaw" and "saw baw" but never "saw law". "Saw" by itself always implies ส เสือ.

"never 'saw law' ". Wonder if you misunderstand my post, if you implied that I suggested "saw law", which I didn't. I reread my post 3 times, thinking whether I mistyped. But no, I didn't mistyped, neither did I say there is a "saw law". What I said was "ส saw sua (as tiger) is short enough so it gets used here".

So hope we are on the same page.

As to "Saw" by itself always implies ส เสือ. I disagree. When a commonly spelled word is spelled with another "saw", there is no rule saying you have to say the identifier. For example, if I spell ศาล, I just say "saw" "ah" "Law". A Thai generally knows that I am referring to "saw sala" here. I wouldn't have to say "saw-sala".

[DavidHouston]

I often hear them said as: ศ saw-kaw (that is the saw which is written similar to khor-kwai, where you start with the khor-kwai, and add the tail to make it saw), ส saw sua (as tiger) is short enough so it gets used here, ษ is referred to as saw bau (the saw which is written as in bau-bi-mai, leaf, then you add the short stroke to make it saw).

I hear Thai people say "saw kaw" and "saw baw" but never "saw law". "Saw" by itself always implies ส เสือ.

"never 'saw law' ". Wonder if you misunderstand my post, if you implied that I suggested "saw law", which I didn't. I reread my post 3 times, thinking whether I mistyped. But no, I didn't mistyped, neither did I say there is a "saw law". What I said was "ส saw sua (as tiger) is short enough so it gets used here".

So hope we are on the same page.

As to "Saw" by itself always implies ส เสือ. I disagree. When a commonly spelled word is spelled with another "saw", there is no rule saying you have to say the identifier. For example, if I spell ศาล, I just say "saw" "ah" "Law". A Thai generally knows that I am referring to "saw sala" here. I wouldn't have to say "saw-sala".

I did not mean to imply that "ส ลอ" was in your note; it was merely my observation of Thai usage. I always wondered why since Thais say "ศ คอ" and "ษ บอ", that they do not also say, "ส ลอ". Please just rate my note as, "mental ravings of an idiot." Thanks.

[stateman]

I did not mean to imply that "ส ลอ" was in your note; it was merely my observation of Thai usage. I always wondered why since Thais say "ศ คอ" and "ษ บอ", that they do not also say, "ส ลอ". Please just rate my note as, "mental ravings of an idiot." Thanks.

I'll venture a guess.

As the single sound of 'saw' can mean either ศ ส or ษ, Thais always have to tag an identifier to associate it with the right one. As all Thais in their childhood, as well as farangs who learn Thai later, went through the identifiers ศ ศาลา (saw sala), ส เสือ (saw sua), and ษ ฤษี (saw rue-see).

As one goes into mainstream use, say in higher edu, one seeks a shorter way of identifying. So for ศ ศาลา (saw sala), and ษ ฤษี (saw rue-see) when you call them ศ คอ (saw khor) and ษ บ (saw bau), you shorten the identifier from 2 syllables to 1. Everyone is happy. But ส เสือ (saw sua) is short enough, so no need to find another identifier - kinda if things ain't break, don't fix it!

[mangkorn]

Interesting, stateman. But when you listen to the news on the radio or television, you often hear the person say "saw," or whatever, without the identifier, when they are abbreviating something. Obviously, when they're abbreviating the name for the military junta (I forget the exact letters, offhand), it's clear to everyone what they're referring to even though they only use the sounds. (But I'd bet that even some Thais don't know the full proper name; only the abbreviation...and I'm fairly certain the same holds for more esoteric proper names or bureaucratic or political terms that are abbreviated. In fact, I have asked "the man/woman on the street" what some abbreviations I've heard or read in the news stand for, and many do not know.)

Anyway, back to my point about license tags: on broadcast news, they often identify an automobile in an accident or used in a crime by only using the sounds of the letters on the license tag, and never the identifier. So my question remains: how can you know exactly which letters they are?

Or is that just lazy news reporting? (I'm a reporter, so I know there is plenty of laziness in the business...)

Thanks for taking the time on this topic, cheers.

[stateman]

Interesting, stateman. But when you listen to the news on the radio or television, you often hear the person say "saw," or whatever, without the identifier, when they are abbreviating something. Obviously, when they're abbreviating the name for the military junta (I forget the exact letters, offhand), it's clear to everyone what they're referring to even though they only use the sounds. (But I'd bet that even some Thais don't know the full proper name; only the abbreviation...and I'm fairly certain the same holds for more esoteric proper names or bureaucratic or political terms that are abbreviated. In fact, I have asked "the man/woman on the street" what some abbreviations I've heard or read in the news stand for, and many do not know.)

Anyway, back to my point about license tags: on broadcast news, they often identify an automobile in an accident or used in a crime by only using the sounds of the letters on the license tag, and never the identifier. So my question remains: how can you know exactly which letters they are?

Or is that just lazy news reporting? (I'm a reporter, so I know there is plenty of laziness in the business...)

mangkorn: Good observation. I noticed the same thing, about the common practice for TV or radio announcer to use the alphabetic abbreviations without the ID tag we discuss here. I probably wouldn't call it laziness. Maybe just a practice. Later I'll present the reason why the practice (my reasoning).

Part 1 is the abbreviated gov. entity or committee, etc. I'd lump all these into the "well known" category. Your example of Kau-Mau-Chaw for the junta, is indeed a well known one. Some others like คตส is heard so many time that I remember it by rote.

If not well known, they do call out the full name of the entity, often a dozen words long!! I saw/heard this several times, though not always. (I imagine what is not well known for us, maybe well known for the announcers - be that they are in the news business and follow the news more closely.) For Thais who catch the string of words given, one can then come back to determine which one word is probably used for the abbreviated alphabets - thus the alphabets in the abbreviation.

In that sense the announcer fulfills the clarity part - sometimes!

Thai gov. entities often are hacked to 3 alphabets, when it is made up of 10+ words. An absurdity to a degree.

With the mai-pen-rai mentality, I suspect most listeners don't care to dig deep to find out the name of the obscure ones. Would you agree? Also, I'd say maybe less than 15% of the population follows the political news very closely (percentage is my own made up number!) If you check, you'll find that the country's largest newspapers focus more on murder, rape and such news. This indicates the lack of interest in hard-core political news. This may explain why many street folks you talk to really don't know the abbreviations.

For myself, the trick I use when I hear an earful of the entity's name, such as กอรมน. I go to read the same news on newsprint, often online. Find out what it is. Then I make a mental note that กอรมน is blah blah ... Maintaining Internal Security .. So I call it "national security" and I know what it does.

Part 2 is car license plate, also a common practice to read on the news with no identifiers. Sometimes on TV they'd show the license plate for the audience to see, sometimes not. My observation below my ease you frustration.

If you notice, the news you see the announcer reads so seriously are not the unique news you see on US network news. The majority of them are reading news from the newsprint, whether raw or captured into their scripts!! That alone probably accounts for a big reason they don't see the seriousness of giving you the identifier. If you miss it, it is in the newspaper the announcer referenced at the beginning.

US network news, on the other hand, present unique news gathered by their own crew. So the need to present unique and complete news is necessary. Besides they have a high standard to maintain.

Anyway, now maybe you can invest a little money and do like the TV announcers do - buy the newsprint. Or check out the news online. You will no longer miss the abbreviations!

A long-time US news consumer, I am used to the completeness and quality of news in the US. I wish other countries share the caliber of news reporters, writers, writing - the conciseness, reliability, logic, language, etc. I can sense the frustration you may have faced in your line of duty to take something incomplete and transform it into a good writing in English. Impossible job!

Do you agree?

[yoot]

Anyway, back to my point about license tags: on broadcast news, they often identify an automobile in an accident or used in a crime by only using the sounds of the letters on the license tag, and never the identifier. So my question remains: how can you know exactly which letters they are?

Or is that just lazy news reporting? (I'm a reporter, so I know there is plenty of laziness in the business...)

As for license tags, I think they always identify with that exact letters, especially FM.91 traffic radio or จส.100. As far as I can recall, on TV news also do the same. For example, if it's ศษ 7, they would say saw sala saw rue-see jed, not even shorten it as saw khor saw bor jed. Because it's very important to make it clears to audiences in this case.

[Johpa]

Interesting, stateman. But when you listen to the news on the radio or television, you often hear the person say "saw," or whatever, without the identifier, when they are abbreviating something. Obviously, when they're abbreviating the name for the military junta (I forget the exact letters, offhand), it's clear to everyone what they're referring to even though they only use the sounds. (But I'd bet that even some Thais don't know the full proper name; only the abbreviation...and I'm fairly certain the same holds for more esoteric proper names or bureaucratic or political terms that are abbreviated. In fact, I have asked "the man/woman on the street" what some abbreviations I've heard or read in the news stand for, and many do not know.)

You are absolutely correct that many Thais use abbreviations referring to various government agencies and organization without ever knowing the full proper name. My brother-in-law works for the local "Oh Pa Ta" and it took me quite awhile to find someone who could tell me that the abbreviation stood for Ongkaan Patana Tambon (Sub-District Development Organization). It is not that the villagers did not know the organization, the office, the employees, etc. They just did not know the full name. And I am sure it is easy to find ma fellow Ahmericans who do not know the official name of US government agencies like the CIA.

As for the Thai alphabet, it is a slightly different type of alphabet than is the Roman alphabet in that each consonant is associated by default with a particular following vowel. (Look up abugida at Wikipedia) Although the consonants refer to the same consonant sounds in Thai, they historically refer to other consonants in Pali/ Sanskrit that do not exist in Thai such as the /sh/ sound that, conversely, did not exist in Latin and thus requires two letters to represent the sound in other European languages. But because phonological features affect tones the different consonants representing the same consonant belong to different "classes of consonants" based upon these historical features.

It is a bit confusing, but the consonant classes represent real phonological features, some historical, and are not simply random classes of consonants.

[DavidHouston]

My brother-in-law works for the local "Oh Pa Ta" and it took me quite awhile to find someone who could tell me that the abbreviation stood for Ongkaan Patana Tambon (Sub-District Development Organization). It is not that the villagers did not know the organization, the office, the employees, etc. They just did not know the full name. And I am sure it is easy to find ma fellow Ahmericans who do not know the official name of US government agencies like the CIA.

I tried to Google the "อ.พ.ต." องค์การพัฒนาส่วนตำบล and found no reference. The more common organization is the "อ.บ.ต." or "องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบล" which is usually translated as the "Subdistrict Administrative Organization", sometimes referred to in English at the SAO. Could you ask your brother-in-law to write the Thai name of the organization for us? I would be interested to see the the development entities. I did find "องค์กรพัฒนาเอกชน" (Private Development Organization - PDO), but not one associated with the Tambol. The difference between the word องค์กร and องค์การ, I am given to understand, is that the latter refers to government organizations while the former can be either a private or a government organization. An NGO, for example is องค์กรเอกชน (คำย่อ non-governmental organization)

Please let us know. Thanks.

[flying]

Thank You for all replies. Stateman that was a great explanation.

I do not know why but I do not get email alerts when others post & this forum is not trapped in my spam trap

or anthing...hmmmmm

Anyway thanks again & glad I saw this still going.

Mike

[meadish_sweetball]

Hi flying:

For you to get e-mail alerts, you need to first opt to track the topic.

This is done by clicking the 'Options' button on the top right of the topic and choosing 'Track this topic'. If you have done this, but there are still no confirmation emails, it does sound like the emails would be blocked automatically, or maybe you signed up with a different e-mail address than the one you are checking?

If these pointers do not help, please let me know and we'll look into it further.

/Meadish

[flying]

Hi flying:

For you to get e-mail alerts, you need to first opt to track the topic.

This is done by clicking the 'Options' button on the top right of the topic and choosing 'Track this topic'. If you have done this, but there are still no confirmation emails, it does sound like the emails would be blocked automatically, or maybe you signed up with a different e-mail address than the one you are checking?

If these pointers do not help, please let me know and we'll look into it further.

/Meadish

Thank You

Yes I understand & have that option checked & also see in my subscriptions folder many topics I am subscribed too but never get any alerts of new posts.

Thanks for any help you may be able to give.

Mike

Edit: Ooops I see in board prefs I had no email notice hmmmmmmmmm

Let me see now & thanks again I bet that was it

Edited November 23, 2007 by flying

[Johpa]

My brother-in-law works for the local "Oh Pa Ta" and it took me quite awhile to find someone who could tell me that the abbreviation stood for Ongkaan Patana Tambon (Sub-District Development Organization). It is not that the villagers did not know the organization, the office, the employees, etc. They just did not know the full name. And I am sure it is easy to find ma fellow Ahmericans who do not know the official name of US government agencies like the CIA.

I tried to Google the "อ.พ.ต." องค์การพัฒนาส่วนตำบล and found no reference. The more common organization is the "อ.บ.ต." or "องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบล" which is usually translated as the "Subdistrict Administrative Organization", sometimes referred to in English at the SAO. Could you ask your brother-in-law to write the Thai name of the organization for us? I would be interested to see the the development entities. I did find "องค์กรพัฒนาเอกชน" (Private Development Organization - PDO), but not one associated with the Tambol. The difference between the word องค์กร and องค์การ, I am given to understand, is that the latter refers to government organizations while the former can be either a private or a government organization. An NGO, for example is องค์กรเอกชน (คำย่อ non-governmental organization)

Please let us know. Thanks.

You are absolutely correct, I had forgotten the correct formal name, and once again have displayed my failing memory, which is why I post less frequently to the Thai language forum than before.

[tgeezer]

Hi All

I know this is probably somewhere but I have not found it.

I am learning the alphabet & understand the theory is like A is for Apple etc. Like we did with english as children.

But now I see Gaw is for Gai etc. Fine but what about the ones that seem to use the same sound? Like Chaw-Ching & Chaw Chang & even Chaw-Ga Cher?

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to type the letters

Anyway I am working with a book & find this to be odd. They cannot sound the same right? Or?

Thanks for any info

For memorizing, the Alphabet is best written in seven lines, line one has seven consonants, lines two ,three, and four have six consonents,line five has eight and the last line is eleven, making a total of forty four. Written like this there are many memory triggers which you will discover, for example: all the 'Cors' are on line 'one' all the 'Chors' in line 'two', oddballs nicely placed like 'gnor' seventh in line one, all the lines start with a mid-class except the last. To see if you like this just compare lines three and four, you will see they are the same sounds,D,DT,T,T,T,N line three only seeming to have the more complicated forms, probably 'Sanskrit'.

Edited November 28, 2007 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

Hi All

I know this is probably somewhere but I have not found it.

I am learning the alphabet & understand the theory is like A is for Apple etc. Like we did with english as children.

But now I see Gaw is for Gai etc. Fine but what about the ones that seem to use the same sound? Like Chaw-Ching & Chaw Chang & even Chaw-Ga Cher?

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to type the letters

Anyway I am working with a book & find this to be odd. They cannot sound the same right? Or?

Thanks for any info

For memorizing, the Alphabet is best written in seven lines, line one has seven consonants, lines two ,three, and four have six consonents,line five has eight and the last line is eleven, making a total of forty four. Written like this there are many memory triggers which you will discover, for example: all the 'Cors' are on line 'one' all the 'Chors' in line 'two', oddballs nicely placed like 'gnor' seventh in line one, all the lines start with a mid-class except the last. To see if you like this just compare lines three and four, you will see they are the same sounds,D,DT,T,T,T,N line three only seeming to have the more complicated forms, probably 'Sanskrit'.

Sorry forgot the question, they all sound as they are except for high class which are said with a rising tone, in the above example the first of the 'Ts' in each line, you will see the others.

[Lizphuket]

I remember experiencing the same confusion when I started learning to read and write Thai a couple of years ago. I learnt to write the actual characters using a kids book (you can find them at any booksellers, Lotus Tesco etc) which is the equivalent of A for Apple, B for (hmm I can't remember now). If you can't find one ask an assistant for a Gor Gai, Kor Kai book.

Not sure if this will help but just as A is for apple ...... Z is for Zebra, Gor is what the first consonant ก is called. The Gai bit is showing the character used in a word ไก่ which is chicken. The second letter is ข Kor and the example word is ไข่ kai which is egg. If you are just starting, I suggest that you concentrate on learning to write the letters first in order. Using the things that I learned about memorising things when I was doing a psychology degree, I ended up making up a silly story about a chicken laying an egg near a buffalo who was wearing a bell etc. I can probably recreate it for you if you think it would help but you need to create something that helps you visualise the consonants. The next stage is to get to grips with the groups of consonants which will help with the tones and pronunciation. I can strongly recommend Thai for Beginners by Benjawan Poomsan Becker. You may need to work through it slowly a few times but I promise you it will be worth it. This will also help you with the vowels which can be a bit of nightmare.

Hope this advice isn't too noddy for you but I accepted that I was aged about 4 or 5 when it came to learning the alphabet and my friends Thai kids thought it was hilarious.

Regards

Liz Phuket

Hi Liz,

I'd appreciate it if you could post your memorising story for the Thai alphabet, I'm sure it will be better than anything I can come up with! Maybe there are other members with similar stories that may help tickle the brain cells into action. Thanks for your contribution anyway.

Sorry been away for a few days and just picking up on things again. I am happy to have a go at recreating my 'story' - good revision for me. Will do asap

[realthaideal]

".....Although the consonants refer to the same consonant sounds in Thai, they historically refer to other consonants in Pali/ Sanskrit that do not exist in Thai such as the /sh/ sound that, conversely, did not exist in Latin and thus requires two letters to represent the sound in other European languages. But because phonological features affect tones the different consonants representing the same consonant belong to different "classes of consonants" based upon these historical features."

So then Johpa, Meadish, David Houston, Mankorn to name a few, where should I go to learn more of the specific derivations of the modern Thai alphabet. I want to know which letter originally comes from which language and what the original sound idea was for each. I think this will help me alot. Also I dig nerdy stuff like that. There's usually some crossover that is food for thought with other languages as well. I'd like to make more distinction for myself specifically between all the saw's, faw's, taw's and paw's. I think somewhere between intellectualizing it and listening more closely I'll get an even clearer sound when speaking. I understand in some cases the distinctions may be lost to the ears and mouth by modern pronunciation, but I'm sure in some cases not. My only reference for this is what happens in Semitic languages when you vary by region and ancient versus modern renditions of the spoken language. For most that's neither here nor there. But makes for an interesting cross reference in my head.

Anyway, point me to the letter origins if you will......

danke

[DavidHouston]

A bibliography of books on the subject of "อักษรและอักขรวิธีไท" ["Tai Alphabet and Orthography"] can be found at http://www.human.cmu.ac.th/~thai/sompong/Tai_Alphabet.htm

This site is from the Thai Linguistics department of the Humanities Faculty of Chiengmai Univesity. It seems that the main textbook for this course is "สมพงศ์ วิทยศักดิ์พันธุ์. ต้นเค้า กำเนิด และวิวัฒนาการของอักษรและอักขรวิธีไท. ภาควิชาภาษาไทย คณะมนุษยศาสตร, มหาวิทยาลัยเชียงใหม่. ๒๕๔๒."

The professor provides a long list of supplemental material under the title of "เอกสารอ่านประกอบเพื่อค้นคว้าเพิ่มเติม" [Additional reading and research material]. Among the long list of books and articles cited is "Penth, Hans. "The Thai Scripts," Journal of Siam Society. ๑๙๘๕.", one of the few written in English to be found in this bibliography.

A book that should be in the library of every serious student of Thai lanauge is "หลักภาษาไทย" กำชัย ทองหล่อ, ๒๕๔๕. The book costs 345 baht and can be found in many popular Thai bookstores. There are any number of books with the title "หลักภาษาไทย" so be sure you get the right one. This 540 page tome may contain enough material to satisfy your desire to know more about the origin and structure of the Thai language for quite a while. For example, pages 40 and 41 show the Thai alphabet used at the time of King Ramkhamhaeng and their modern Thai equivalent.

Several more books that might help to satisfy your intellectual curiosity are "หลักภาษาไทย" เปลื่อง ณ นรง, "ภาษาาไทยของเรา", and "ปาฐกถา หลักภาษาไทย" พระยาอุปกิตศิลปสาร. (You might find Chapter 5 of this last book interesting: "อักขรวิธีและไวยากรณ์ของไทยสยาม".) All three of these I found at our local provincial commercial bookstore.

Have a wonderful time in your studies and, if you learn something fascinating about the language, please post your learnings in this forum. It's great to meet someone with your passion for Thai. Thanks.

Edited December 4, 2007 by DavidHouston

[DavidHouston]

If you are in Bangkok, you might be able to obtain the book shown on http://cuir.car.chula.ac.th/handle/123456789/2746 called:

Title: วิวัฒนาการอักษรและอักขรวิธีไทย

Other Titles: Development of Thai scripts and orthography

You can also find this at "Chulabook", http://www.chulabook.com/cgi-bin/main/2006...e=9789749897317, where it is available for on-line purchase for 255 baht.

Perhaps someone in this forum has seen the book and can tell us whether it fits the bill.

[mangkorn]

I was under the impression that much of the Thai alphabet was copied from/inspired by the Khmer alphabet?