Armed Forces To Seek Over 300 Billion In Development For 10 Years

[Jai Dee]

Armed forces to seek over 300 billion in development for 10 years

Minister of Defense General Boonrawd Somtas has revealed that the nation’s armed forces will request over 300 billion baht over the next 10 years to develop its capabilities to meet international standards.

General Boonrawd stated that 117 billion baht will be asked for between the years 2009 and 2013 with an additional 200 billion from 2014 and 2018. The funding will go to all armed forces including the navy and air force, each acquiring new weapons and technology to match near by countries.

The Defense Minister received the figures from a meeting of military leaders that took place in Nakhon Pathom province recently. He said though that armed forces could also survive on one third of the asked funding.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 26 November 2007

[Jai Dee]

Billions for arms

The military will seek 317 billion baht ($9.3 billion) from the next government for weapons purchases over the coming decade to bring the army, navy and air force up to a level comparable to neighbouring countries.

The figures emerged at the conclusion of the meeting of top brass in Sam Phran district of Nakhon Pathom yesterday.

The generals met to discuss the armed forces' needs for 2009 to 2018.

Defence Minister Boonrawd Somtas said the military will need 117 billion baht from 2009 to 2013 and another 200 billion baht from 2014 to 2018.

More from the Bangkok Post here.

[dominique355]

They have no shame to fill their pockets while on power and increase the military spending by a hefty 58% in just in year.

And guess at whose expenses? Right, at the expenses of social welfare, education (yeah, well, educated people would probably not approve these budgets) and health care.

Every toy in the shop, no matter how useless and how expensive is being bought by the generals, even submarines! Meanwhile an outdated aircraft carrier is rotting in the harbor.

And when they run out of ideas, then this general comes up with the idea of making the whole life stop at 8 AM and 6 PM to salute the flag. Really, how low is the minimum IQ requirement for entering and climbing the ranks in Thai military?

[Old Man River]

Given Thailand's foreign policy is to roll over and die (i.e. their open policy towards Burma etc.), one has to wonder why they need to have a strong military.

[mrbojangles]

I heard something the other week, that they have bought 12 Gripen's for the Air Force. Can anyone confirm?

[eljeque]

"navy and air force up to a level comparable to neighbouring countries."

Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos? I would have thought that Thailand's Navy and Air Force were already ahead of these countries.

[Martin]

An arms race between the Mekong Region countries is just a daft waste of money.

Cohesion and co-operation amongst them has been growing in all their other Government Departments, and between their academics.

But the military always want to justify their existence.

If common sense prevailed, the military would be being downsized; but of all the senses that one is in shortest supply.

[pete_r]

Same story on Channelnews Asia: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp.../313806/1/.html

How are a submarine and fighter jets going to help against the Southern insurgency and suicide bombers, I wonder...

Thai military seeks US$8.8b for weapons: army

Posted: 26 November 2007 1657 hrs

[...]

"In response to changing circumstances we are facing, including the southern insurgency and the rising threat of terrorism in the world, Thailand needs greater capabilities to defend our country," Pichasanu said.

"For example, some of our neighbours already have a submarine. We need to make a decision now so that one will be available to us in the next five to 10 years," he told AFP.

In addition to a submarine, the plan also calls for 10 more fighter jets over a decade starting from 2009, he added.

The military has been on a shopping spree since seizing power in a bloodless coup last year.

Since the takeover, military spending has skyrocketed to 140 billion baht for 2008, up from 29 billion baht the year before the coup.

[...]

[monkeyclub]

Unbelieveable.

8.8 BILLION USD !! on military hardware ?!?! for Thailand ?!?! are you kidding me ??

So while I'm alright jack general somchai is filling his pockets and his offshore bank account, uneducated ignorant people are starving on the soi's of nakonsi-boonrat-nowhere, or bangkok for that matter.

lets play a word association game starting with:

Corrupt

Monkies

Uneducatated

Somchai

Heads

In

The

Clouds

Xenophobic

Protectionist

Paranoid

Nationalist

Properganda (if I knew how to spell it)

Oh well never mind, the chinese owned fireworks companies made a killing off Loy whatever.

same same no change.

[Prakanong]

"navy and air force up to a level comparable to neighbouring countries."

Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos? I would have thought that Thailand's Navy and Air Force were already ahead of these countries.

Well Laos smacked their arse last battle they had and I doubt Thailand would stand much of a chance against Vietnam

If they really want the toys countries in the region have like Singapore they had better triple the figure they are asking for - also given the 10% or whatever they scrape off the top of any arms contract it looks like the Genrals are lining their pockets pretty much

[chownah]

Given Thailand's foreign policy is to roll over and die (i.e. their open policy towards Burma etc.), one has to wonder why they need to have a strong military.

They need a strong military to repress their own people and oust any gov't that doesn't kiss their bayonets!!!

[Seneque]

Given Thailand's foreign policy is to roll over and die (i.e. their open policy towards Burma etc.), one has to wonder why they need to have a strong military.

They need a strong military to repress their own people and oust any gov't that doesn't kiss their bayonets!!!

Actually i heard for a fact that as a supplier you even do not have to deliver the hardware (too much problem/cost in maintenance!!)... just put the money in the bank ... and maipenrai for most of the people ... if you don't get involved, you don't know, if you don't know, you don't get involved.

[KK-Mike]

"navy and air force up to a level comparable to neighbouring countries."

Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos? I would have thought that Thailand's Navy and Air Force were already ahead of these countries.

Well Laos smacked their arse last battle they had and I doubt Thailand would stand much of a chance against Vietnam

If they really want the toys countries in the region have like Singapore they had better triple the figure they are asking for - also given the 10% or whatever they scrape off the top of any arms contract it looks like the Genrals are lining their pockets pretty much

Your right about Thailand standing up to Vietnam, look what happened to the USA. South East Asia war games, USA came in 2nd. after loosing 58,000 people

[Prakanong]

Given Thailand's foreign policy is to roll over and die (i.e. their open policy towards Burma etc.), one has to wonder why they need to have a strong military.

They need a strong military to repress their own people and oust any gov't that doesn't kiss their bayonets!!!

Actually i heard for a fact that as a supplier you even do not have to deliver the hardware (too much problem/cost in maintenance!!)... just put the money in the bank ... and maipenrai for most of the people ... if you don't get involved, you don't know, if you don't know, you don't get involved.

I am on an MBA with a salesman form a Singapore arms company who sells to Thailand

They deliver but he will also tell you about the skim off the contracts too as well as Generals not even reading them and passing them to a junior once its established the skim is in place.

[highdiver]

it does sound a little expensive at first sight... however keeping an airforce with modern aricarfts cost a lot of money.

an F16 is about 40 million dollars a piece not including spare parts..the direct and indirect costs of an hour flight of a modern jet fighter can cost about 35,000USD.

a new navy ship is more then double that.

tanks and armours run for a little less but you do need a lot of them.

the new technologies applied by modern armies involve high tech that costs alot of money.

so if you devide that 9 billion on 9 years its about 1 billion dollars a year. in militery terms its nothing....

just for comparisson Dubai airways are buying for the same amount on comercial airlines from Airbus.

so those of you who think that this is a "LOT" of money on militery spending are wrong...

As for the question does thailand realy need this militery power???

I hope they never need to use..... it but if shit happens its better to be prepared.

[Bagwan]

I've been reading about submarines being on the shopping list for sometime now. Don't these Sea Scouts realise that during WW2 the US Fleet subs never ventured anywhere near the Gulf of Thailand or the Malacca Strait? The seas hereabouts were far too shallow for even the smaller RN boats to operate save at the northern end of the strait. The RN decided to use midget subs which were towed from Fremantle to attack and damage the Jap cruiser Takao in Singapore Roads.

The prime sub base for the RN in days of yore was at Wei Hai Wei transferring to Hong Kong in the winter months. If it was considered too perilous to operate submarines then, it would be totally lethal now considering the great advances made in underwater detection. The RThN have no experience of submarine warfare or of operating submarines. Who do they think that they might use them against? Total mindless folly.

[sriracha john]

Submarine technology has advanced just a tad bit here and there over the past 60 years.

There are subs that operate in the Gulf of Thailand.... they're just not Thai.

[Bagwan]

Submarine technology has advanced just a tad bit here and there over the past 60 years.

There are subs that operate in the Gulf of Thailand.... they're just not Thai.

So have sub detection techniques. USN can detect a sub from 300 miles and identify the class and its capabilities. Thailand who cannot get a set of traffic signals to work consistently, would be buying Chinese technology and presumably using it ineffectively.

Who/what would RThN attack?

[Prakanong]

it does sound a little expensive at first sight... however keeping an airforce with modern aricarfts cost a lot of money.

an F16 is about 40 million dollars a piece not including spare parts..the direct and indirect costs of an hour flight of a modern jet fighter can cost about 35,000USD.

a new navy ship is more then double that.

tanks and armours run for a little less but you do need a lot of them.

the new technologies applied by modern armies involve high tech that costs alot of money.

so if you devide that 9 billion on 9 years its about 1 billion dollars a year. in militery terms its nothing....

just for comparisson Dubai airways are buying for the same amount on comercial airlines from Airbus.

so those of you who think that this is a "LOT" of money on militery spending are wrong...

As for the question does thailand realy need this militery power???

I hope they never need to use..... it but if shit happens its better to be prepared.

Yes, military technology is expensive for modern armies - that excludes Thailand then!

I am sure you mean Emirates and not Dubai Airways but they are expecying a return on their investment - not toys top play with.

What opportunity costs are being foregone by this spending - could the money have been better spent on infrastructure, education is the question that needs to be asked?

[sriracha john]

Submarine technology has advanced just a tad bit here and there over the past 60 years.

There are subs that operate in the Gulf of Thailand.... they're just not Thai.

So have sub detection techniques. USN can detect a sub from 300 miles and identify the class and its capabilities. Thailand who cannot get a set of traffic signals to work consistently, would be buying Chinese technology and presumably using it ineffectively.

Who/what would RThN attack?

Only another sub has that degree of sub detection ability... and it isn't easy.

Airborne detection of my sub using sonar sensors was a joke... same with surface ships. I would like to provide specifics, but its classified.

Has Thailand already put it it's purchase order? Have they decided on what type of sub they'll get and from whom?

As for the possible mission operations for RTN subs, they are numerous.

A sub on the Andaman and a sub in the Gulf would add a lot to the Navy's capabilities.

Pirate eradication in the Andaman and near the Straits of Malacca would be a good first one.

Eavesdropping radio transmissions off the Deep South might be another.

Edited November 30, 2007 by sriracha john

[kmart]

We have a domestic insurgency in the South that has cost almost 3,000 lives in 4 years, and these shameless old men are asking for jet fighters and submarines....? Good editorial in the Nation here

[Bagwan]

Has Thailand already put it it's purchase order? Have they decided on what type of sub they'll get and from whom?

As for the possible mission operations for RTN subs, they are numerous.

A sub on the Andaman and a sub in the Gulf would add a lot to the Navy's capabilities.

Pirate eradication in the Andaman and near the Straits of Malacca would be a good first one.

Eavesdropping radio transmissions off the Deep South might be another.

According to Press reports the RThN want to buy from the Chinese. The following is from the Net about the state of the Chinese Navy.

Submarine. The second-generation nuclear-powered attack submarine Type 093 Shang class and ballistic missile submarine Type 094 Jin class have already entered service, each class with two boats launched. The PLAN also operates 3~4 Type 091 Han class nuclear-powered attack submarines and a single Type 092 Xia class nuclear-powered missile submarine. The new generation nuclear submarines are already under sea trial. China purchased a total of 12 Kilo class diesel-electric submarines from Russia, and is building more Song and Yuan class submarines. The older Romeo and Ming class submarines are expected to be withdrawn from service by 2015~2020

If the above is true I would discount any notion that the Chinese would sell nuclear powered subs. That leaves diesels - yesterday's toys.

What capability would the RThN want? Again, I ask who is a possible aggressor? If history is anything to go by, Thailand would fold within 48 hours.

Listening to radio transmissions could be done from terra firma. The Russkies used trawlers, not big hairy assed vessels of war. Is there room on a sub for sophisticated listening gear? Could it pick up transmissions underwater?

A diesel sub chasing after fast motor boats? Really? I think not. Visible presence i.e. fast patrol boats and possible air surveillance, would curtail pirate activity.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Bagwan

[younghusband]

Submarine technology has advanced just a tad bit here and there over the past 60 years.

There are subs that operate in the Gulf of Thailand.... they're just not Thai.

So have sub detection techniques. USN can detect a sub from 300 miles and identify the class and its capabilities. Thailand who cannot get a set of traffic signals to work consistently, would be buying Chinese technology and presumably using it ineffectively.

Who/what would RThN attack?

Only another sub has that degree of sub detection ability... and it isn't easy.

Airborne detection of my sub using sonar sensors was a joke... same with surface ships. I would like to provide specifics, but its classified.

Has Thailand already put it it's purchase order? Have they decided on what type of sub they'll get and from whom?

As for the possible mission operations for RTN subs, they are numerous.

A sub on the Andaman and a sub in the Gulf would add a lot to the Navy's capabilities.

Not very convincing justification for acquiring this kind of hardware, any more than the ludicrous purchase of the Spanish aircraft carrier over a decade ago.If I didn't know this poster rubber stamps every junta action however corrupt,incompetent or immoral,I would have thought the reasons given were a joke.Why does Thailand need a sub in the Gulf for example? Actually anyone with some knowledge of the true motivation for the Thai armed forces to purchase expensive and useless foreign hardware understands the score.I would like to elaborate but the information is classified.

Pirate eradication in the Andaman and near the Straits of Malacca would be a good first one.

Eavesdropping radio transmissions off the Deep South might be another.

[sriracha john]

Has Thailand already put it it's purchase order? Have they decided on what type of sub they'll get and from whom?

As for the possible mission operations for RTN subs, they are numerous.

A sub on the Andaman and a sub in the Gulf would add a lot to the Navy's capabilities.

Pirate eradication in the Andaman and near the Straits of Malacca would be a good first one.

Eavesdropping radio transmissions off the Deep South might be another.

According to Press reports the RThN want to buy from the Chinese. The following is from the Net about the state of the Chinese Navy.

Submarine. The second-generation nuclear-powered attack submarine Type 093 Shang class and ballistic missile submarine Type 094 Jin class have already entered service, each class with two boats launched. The PLAN also operates 3~4 Type 091 Han class nuclear-powered attack submarines and a single Type 092 Xia class nuclear-powered missile submarine. The new generation nuclear submarines are already under sea trial. China purchased a total of 12 Kilo class diesel-electric submarines from Russia, and is building more Song and Yuan class submarines. The older Romeo and Ming class submarines are expected to be withdrawn from service by 2015~2020

If the above is true I would discount any notion that the Chinese would sell nuclear powered subs. That leaves diesels - yesterday's toys.

What capability would the RThN want? Again, I ask who is a possible aggressor? If history is anything to go by, Thailand would fold within 48 hours.

Listening to radio transmissions could be done from terra firma. The Russkies used trawlers, not big hairy assed vessels of war. Is there room on a sub for sophisticated listening gear? Could it pick up transmissions underwater?

A diesel sub chasing after fast motor boats? Really? I think not. Visible presence i.e. fast patrol boats and possible air surveillance, would curtail pirate activity.

I fully agree the RTN would not be looking for nuke subs.... far too expensive and too technical and unnecessary for their operational needs. They certainly would be going the diesel-electric route, but that's not to say diesels are "yesterday's toys." Not by a wide stretch. Diesels are quieter where sound avoidance is the primary method to avoid detection. The main advantage to nukes are its lengthy at-sea capabilities which is why the super-powers went that way, but that is not applicable to Thailand's needs. The super-powers themselves are re-thinking that strategy as even though the nuke Russian sub is the fastest under the water, it's also one of the noisiest and easiest to detect far, far away. It sounds like a freight train coming on another sub's sonar headphones. Diesel boats are more adept in shallow waters such as the Gulf, as well.

Thailand would join a lengthy list of countries with subs. It's not nearly exclusive as it once was.

National Defense Magazine:

Diesel Submarines Irritant to U.S. Navy

Because they are much less costly to produce than nuclear submarines, easily available on the world arms market and hard to detect, diesel boats now are viewed as classic “asymmetric” threats that could wreak havoc on a technically superior U.S. naval force.

Of most concern are the newer diesel-electric boats made by several European nations, most of whom are U.S. allies. Those submarines are more technologically advanced, quieter and have a longer battery life, which means they can stay submerged and undetected for extended periods of time.

John Young, assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, said at a news conference last month that 40 countries today operate more than 400 submarines, 75 percent of which are considered “modern” boats.

Also, Thailand doesn't seem all that out of line with its neighbors...

Reuters:

The military chiefs proposed to raise defense spending to 1.8 percent of GDP in the first five years to 2014 and to 2.0 percent from 2015-19. That compared to 1.58 percent of GDP this year.

Singapore, which has the best-equipped military in southeast Asia, spends about 4.0 percent of GDP on defense.

and

Malaysia National News Agency:

Singapore though the smallest nation in the region it boasts the biggest defence budget in SEA with US$5.8 billion spent last year, while its bigger regional ally Thailand spent US$2 billion.

Malaysia had allocated US$3 billion last year, while Indonesia spent US$3.7 billion.

On the whole the arms market in SEA, not including Vietnam, Laos, and Myanmar, is estimated to be worth US$20 billion annually.

Much of the spending in SEA is going towards replacing outdated assets with up-to-date ones.

As for its use of submarines...

Reuters:

High on the navy's wish list is a submarine to patrol the Andaman Sea and for joint patrols of the Malacca Strait with Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and Vietnam.

by the way... in my news report readings I've not run across any reports that the RTN was specifically seeking Chinese subs. Do you know of any links?

In regards to the Deep South, in terms of eavesdropping capabilities, subs are hard to beat. They are unseen and unknown, which is something not possible on land or even on off-shore ships.

"Is there room on a sub for sophisticated listening gear?"

Yes, there is.

"Could it pick up transmissions underwater?"

Yes, it could.

"A diesel sub chasing after fast motor boats? Really? I think not."

It doesn't have to. Fast motor boats can be heard for miles enabling a sub to position itself and lie in wait. Standard sub practice for coastal defense and pirate ship interdiction.

"Visible presence i.e. fast patrol boats and possible air surveillance, would curtail pirate activity."

I agree they can both be used in conjunction with the added capability a sub can provide.

Edited December 1, 2007 by sriracha john

[JimsKnight]

No way disagree on that one.

Submarines are useless trying to take on fast boats. You are assuming that a sub knows what acoustic signature a 'pirate boat' has. They don't have a recognisable signature because they could be using any commercially available engine thats to hand. A sub could be tracking a couple of tourists out for a jolly when the bad guys are getting away.

Military vessels typically use specific engines already known operators.

Subs are useful against other subs and big military vessels, but chasing small craft would be a waste of time.

You'd have more success using a Type VII German U-Boat with deck gun and AA gun than a modern sub for pirate hunting.

Thailand is trying to see itself as the daddy of SE Asia when it's really just a paper tiger. If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends, lets not kid ourselves that just cause we're living here we must be in bed with the almighty empire of Asia

[Prakanong]

Singapores spending is interesting - I know they have all the toys but did not realise they spent more than double Thailand as a whole and per capita its a wide margin.

They still have universal NS for guys though.

I bet the per capita healthcare and education outrips Thailand by about as much too (per capita) but that is to be expected given income per capita.

[sriracha john]

No way disagree on that one.

Submarines are useless trying to take on fast boats. You are assuming that a sub knows what acoustic signature a 'pirate boat' has. They don't have a recognisable signature because they could be using any commercially available engine thats to hand. A sub could be tracking a couple of tourists out for a jolly when the bad guys are getting away.

Military vessels typically use specific engines already known operators.

Subs are useful against other subs and big military vessels, but chasing small craft would be a waste of time.

You'd have more success using a Type VII German U-Boat with deck gun and AA gun than a modern sub for pirate hunting.

Thailand is trying to see itself as the daddy of SE Asia when it's really just a paper tiger. If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends, lets not kid ourselves that just cause we're living here we must be in bed with the almighty empire of Asia

Again, it's not a matter of "chasing", it's about detection and surveillance... which is done when the other craft is far off. It's not only done with sonar (which is a great deal more sophisticated than your tourist boat scenario) but with monitoring all forms of communications (often the pirates work as a unit with a number of vessels using radio). It's also a matter of stealth. If the pirate ships don't "see" the sub visually or sonarly, they are difficult to avoid, unlike the current patrol boats and air units. The sub could act as a cohesive adjunct and coordinate with these Navy patrol boats or air units or even attack from below itself.

I don't see that Thailand is trying to be the "daddy of SE Asia" as Singapore's documented double spending it above shows. Malaysia, with a smaller Armed Forces, is also out-spending Thailand.

One of the reasons the military seems to want to improve its hardware is precisely what you point out when you say:

"If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends"

That image won't change without some outlay for updated equipment and its associated training.

Edited December 1, 2007 by sriracha john

[younghusband]

No way disagree on that one.

Submarines are useless trying to take on fast boats. You are assuming that a sub knows what acoustic signature a 'pirate boat' has. They don't have a recognisable signature because they could be using any commercially available engine thats to hand. A sub could be tracking a couple of tourists out for a jolly when the bad guys are getting away.

Military vessels typically use specific engines already known operators.

Subs are useful against other subs and big military vessels, but chasing small craft would be a waste of time.

You'd have more success using a Type VII German U-Boat with deck gun and AA gun than a modern sub for pirate hunting.

Thailand is trying to see itself as the daddy of SE Asia when it's really just a paper tiger. If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends, lets not kid ourselves that just cause we're living here we must be in bed with the almighty empire of Asia

Again, it's not a matter of "chasing", it's about detection and surveillance... which is done when the other craft is far off. It's not only done with sonar (which is a great deal more sophisticated than your tourist boat scenario) but with monitoring all forms of communications (often the pirates work as a unit with a number of vessels using radio). It's also a matter of stealth. If the pirate ships don't "see" the sub visually or sonarly, they are difficult to avoid, unlike the current patrol boats and air units. The sub could act as a cohesive adjunct and coordinate with these Navy patrol boats or air units or even attack from below itself.

I don't see that Thailand is trying to be the "daddy of SE Asia" as Singapore's documented double spending it above shows. Malaysia, with a smaller Armed Forces, is also out-spending Thailand.

One of the reasons the military seems to want to improve its hardware is precisely what you point out when you say:

"If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends"

That image won't change without some outlay for updated equipment and its associated training.

Piracy is a genuine concern which needs to be tackled - and to some extent is- on a regional and multinational basis.Ignoring the excitable and rather illogical fantasies (Thai subs attacking pirate ships from below..ha.ha.haha), it is frankly almost irrelevant for Thai military forces to determine expenditure in reference to other ASEAN countries from whom no threat exists. The key issue for the Thai armed forces is to prioritise expenditure, particularly when it comes to expensive and irrelevant hardware.Equally there is the parallel issue of kickbacks and corruption which has plagued spending decisions in the past and has resulted in overinvoiced, irrelevant and unnecessary military kit. (Think for example of the absurd purchase of the Spanish aircraft carrier a few years ago.)Obviously this is no longer an issue given the end of self serving corruption following the liberation of the country from the Thaksin dictatorship.Certainly the prioritisation process involves some hard decisions, much in the same way NATO forces had to rationalise after the Cold War when tank and tactical nuclear conflict with Soviet forces was no longer relevant.Even now one wonders exactly what role NATO envisages for the Eurofighter aircraft for example.

In terms of priority the clear challenge is the deteriorating situation in the South, hardly ever discussed on this forum.Here the requirement is certainly for some considerable additional expenditure but equally better training and flexible and sensitive leadership.The basic quality of the Thai military is in my view rather good and is often underestimated.Surayud made a good start on this very difficult problem but didn't really follow up - although one also suspects his sound instincts were frustrated.Anyway the new government needs to follow up before the situation veers completely out of control.

In the meantime the Mr Toad types will continue to witter on about submarines and "attacking prates from below".Poop Poop.

[hammered]

No way disagree on that one.

Submarines are useless trying to take on fast boats. You are assuming that a sub knows what acoustic signature a 'pirate boat' has. They don't have a recognisable signature because they could be using any commercially available engine thats to hand. A sub could be tracking a couple of tourists out for a jolly when the bad guys are getting away.

Military vessels typically use specific engines already known operators.

Subs are useful against other subs and big military vessels, but chasing small craft would be a waste of time.

You'd have more success using a Type VII German U-Boat with deck gun and AA gun than a modern sub for pirate hunting.

Thailand is trying to see itself as the daddy of SE Asia when it's really just a paper tiger. If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends, lets not kid ourselves that just cause we're living here we must be in bed with the almighty empire of Asia

Again, it's not a matter of "chasing", it's about detection and surveillance... which is done when the other craft is far off. It's not only done with sonar (which is a great deal more sophisticated than your tourist boat scenario) but with monitoring all forms of communications (often the pirates work as a unit with a number of vessels using radio). It's also a matter of stealth. If the pirate ships don't "see" the sub visually or sonarly, they are difficult to avoid, unlike the current patrol boats and air units. The sub could act as a cohesive adjunct and coordinate with these Navy patrol boats or air units or even attack from below itself.

I don't see that Thailand is trying to be the "daddy of SE Asia" as Singapore's documented double spending it above shows. Malaysia, with a smaller Armed Forces, is also out-spending Thailand.

One of the reasons the military seems to want to improve its hardware is precisely what you point out when you say:

"If I had to put my money on any army/military in SE Asia it wouldn't be Thailand, it would either be Malaysia or the PI.

Thailand has an ok military compared with Laos and Cambodia but thats where it ends"

That image won't change without some outlay for updated equipment and its associated training.

Piracy is a genuine concern which needs to be tackled - and to some extent is- on a regional and multinational basis.Ignoring the excitable and rather illogical fantasies (Thai subs attacking pirate ships from below..ha.ha.haha), it is frankly almost irrelevant for Thai military forces to determine expenditure in reference to other ASEAN countries from whom no threat exists. The key issue for the Thai armed forces is to prioritise expenditure, particularly when it comes to expensive and irrelevant hardware.Equally there is the parallel issue of kickbacks and corruption which has plagued spending decisions in the past and has resulted in overinvoiced, irrelevant and unnecessary military kit. (Think for example of the absurd purchase of the Spanish aircraft carrier a few years ago.)Obviously this is no longer an issue given the end of self serving corruption following the liberation of the country from the Thaksin dictatorship.Certainly the prioritisation process involves some hard decisions, much in the same way NATO forces had to rationalise after the Cold War when tank and tactical nuclear conflict with Soviet forces was no longer relevant.Even now one wonders exactly what role NATO envisages for the Eurofighter aircraft for example.

In terms of priority the clear challenge is the deteriorating situation in the South, hardly ever discussed on this forum.Here the requirement is certainly for some considerable additional expenditure but equally better training and flexible and sensitive leadership.The basic quality of the Thai military is in my view rather good and is often underestimated.Surayud made a good start on this very difficult problem but didn't really follow up - although one also suspects his sound instincts were frustrated.Anyway the new government needs to follow up before the situation veers completely out of control.

In the meantime the Mr Toad types will continue to witter on about submarines and "attacking prates from below".Poop Poop.

It may also help to divert a large amount of the funds into recruiting and training a different kind of low ranking soldier. In insurgency situations having the troops on the ground able to speak local dialects and be sensitive to cultural issues is just as important as any amount of body armour and certainly a lot more use than any additional firepower. Then again Thailand isnt the only country to have missed the obvious that as modern warfare turns away from traditional enemies and traditional ground battles into a more fluid form of "insurgency" style warfare that a better trained, more educated, and hance far better paid soldier is needed to conduct operations in very small units that may be succesful in this new form of war.

[sriracha john]

I can appreciate that the vast majority of people are completely unaware of a submarine's tactical abilities as it's not generally available knowledge, which highlights the cornerstone of a submarine's abilities and that is stealth and secrecy.

Confidentiality prevents me from revealing most of my experiences, but I will say I've viewed through a periscope on many occasions to see a sea-craft ranging from single-man sailboats to aircraft carriers and all sorts in-between and not one of them was aware of our presence even though at times we were extremely close to them. Given that huge advantage, a submarine's armament can consist of weaponry that is able to quickly dispose of any of that vast array of craft.

I'd just add that YH's response yesterday was better put.

Edited December 2, 2007 by sriracha john