Digital Camera

[Spaniel]

I'm going to buy my son a new camera for Christmas. I've looked at both the Canon SD 850 IS and the Sony Cyber Shot W 80. Any comments on either of these choices? I'm leaning toward the Sony.

[Nordlys]

At this class of digital camera I wonder if there's much point discussing which brand/model is more recommendable. Both brands are well represented here in Thailand and they both have their own service centers in Bangkok in which they don't have to rely on local distirbutors for service unlike a few other brands. That said, I'd go for Canon simply because I had much better experiences with Canon service center than Sony. I'd also rather choose a compact digital that accommodates SD card for storage than memory stick because memory stick is more expensive per megabyte price than SD card (if my memory serves me correct) and SD card much more versatile a memory card than MS, shared by many other brands, whereas with MS you're locked into using Sony. But it all comes down to personal choice/taste.

Edited December 17, 2007 by Nordlys

[lopburi3]

I was in the market for a new generation pocket camera and did quite a bit of review readings and believe you will find everyone in agreement that Canon is a much better choice than Sony. The current Sony advertising blitz not withstanding. Face recognizability is not really something of need if you know how to focus a camera but seems to the the whole brunt of Sony campaign.

I chose a Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX30 a few weeks ago, which, at 8,200 baht, I felt was the best current value for an ultra compact and have been very happy with it. The only negative I read in reviews was poor movie audio but they must have only listening on the camera itself (which is poor) because on computer it is very good. I was also very much interested in having the wide angle lens (28mm)

[Nordlys]

Face recognizability is not really something of need if you know how to focus a camera but seems to the the whole brunt of Sony campaign.

This feature is actually now available from many other brands including Canon, it was actually Canon who pioneered in this technology. Sony went one step ahead of the others in adding "smile recognizability" feature which seems a bit overkill for me.

[Tywais]

Face recognizability is not really something of need if you know how to focus a camera but seems to the the whole brunt of Sony campaign.

This feature is actually now available from many other brands including Canon, it was actually Canon who pioneered in this technology. Sony went one step ahead of the others in adding "smile recognizability" feature which seems a bit overkill for me.

My Canon S5 IS has it also, and able to recognize and lock onto up to either 5 or 7 faces.

[legag]

Don't know much about digital camera but I used to have Sony and got very disappointed as the quality of the photo never came out nice. Tried to adjust everything and was still crab. Finally sold it and got Casio ExSlim and bought Canon SD850 last year. Been using it like crazy. Good buy.

[lopburi3]

5, 7, or 11 - but a lens can only focus on one point when it takes the photo so the best they can do is help you compromise. As long as you understand close less latitude in exact focus and the further away the less critical don't think it is that hard to autofocus on the close people. But then I used to use the split image long after automation so the autofocus it pushing it for me.

One thing that is useful is the optic stabilization. Works wonders for movie mode.

[gampaan]

I've had Canon cameras for 35+ years now, including a D350, and have loved them all. Going on past experience I'd buy a Sony TV and a Canon camera....

[jfchandler]

I was shopping for a new dig cam lately, and started with no prior opinions as to brand. After looking at everything everywhere, Canon and Sony emerged at the top tiers, but Canon emerged on top when I finished weighing all the factors... some mentioned by prior posters such as the memory format. The Sonys I was looking at also got knocked for having small button controls that weren't the easiest to use, while the Canons I was looking at (570 IS and others) got uniformly great reviews from both the tech sites and from users themselves. Canon gets the edge.

[Firefoxx]

In point and shoot digicams, Sonys are more about style than function. You'll see the trendy group going for Sonys, although there are some pretty trendy Canon Ixus cameras. The picture quality on Sonys isn't that great (but if you really want picture quality, go for a DSLR, they're in P&S pricing territory now). The memory is proprietary (can't be used on any other brand) and expensive.

[britmaveric]

Canon Digital Elph series - best around IMHO.

[kat]

At this class of digital camera I wonder if there's much point discussing which brand/model is more recommendable. Both brands are well represented here in Thailand and they both have their own service centers in Bangkok in which they don't have to rely on local distirbutors for service unlike a few other brands. That said, I'd go for Canon simply because I had much better experiences with Canon service center than Sony. I'd also rather choose a compact digital that accommodates SD card for storage than memory stick because memory stick is more expensive per megabyte price than SD card (if my memory serves me correct) and SD card much more versatile a memory card than MS, shared by many other brands, whereas with MS you're locked into using Sony. But it all comes down to personal choice/taste.

What other class of camera do you recommend? I am a former serious amateur photographer of print work, and had a fujica 51 mm at one time. Used that thing until it literally fell apart after 18 years. Haven't replaced with a "serious" camera. I became disillusioned with my first digital camera for serious work because of the time delay. Do you have recommendations?

I was in the market for a new generation pocket camera and did quite a bit of review readings and believe you will find everyone in agreement that Canon is a much better choice than Sony. The current Sony advertising blitz not withstanding. Face recognizability is not really something of need if you know how to focus a camera but seems to the the whole brunt of Sony campaign.

I chose a Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX30 a few weeks ago, which, at 8,200 baht, I felt was the best current value for an ultra compact and have been very happy with it. The only negative I read in reviews was poor movie audio but they must have only listening on the camera itself (which is poor) because on computer it is very good. I was also very much interested in having the wide angle lens (28mm)

Yeah, the Lumix is a cute little number for snapshots and the like. For me, it is either between that or a Cannon. I like the wide angle as well, but with a good optical zoom. How does that fare on the Lumix?

I also have a silly question for you guys: when is the best time to find the best sales on electronics? I am in the states now, and common sense would tell me now is not the time because of Christmas shopping, but maybe I'm wrong. Do prices come down in January/Feb. as they clear away old stock for new? Just curious.

[lopburi3]

I have not used the zoom that much - but seems to be good and not long steps like some. Leica still seems to mean quality.

Don't believe you will find "sales" as such - as newer models are brought into the market the older units are marked down. If you want to pay less try the gray market like Pix-One in Fortune Town (and other locations) or a few others. You get a guarantee from importer rather than manufacture/official importer, and software may only be in Japanese, but the prices are a lot lower and most of us have saftware

One thing that has impressed me is the battery life. My previous cameras have been "AA" powered and would discharge very quickly in or out of use. This tiny phone type battery never seems to discharge - and from dead to full is less than two hours.

This link seems to be a good price check of gray market: Link

In almost all cases you should be able to buy for less in the US.

[mikethevigoman]

I'm going to buy my son a new camera for Christmas. I've looked at both the Canon SD 850 IS and the Sony Cyber Shot W 80. Any comments on either of these choices? I'm leaning toward the Sony.

i use a canon powershot g6 and a sony cybershot dsc-n2. i use both daily, i have had the canon for 2 years and the sony for 6 months, i find the sony has more command and tends to flash less on auto and is able to take a better pic, one 10.1 and the other 7.1 ( canon ) ,. both are good and i still wouldnt know which one i prefer although the sony is smaller and easy to carry about,.

[jfchandler]

Buy in the U.S.for sure from a price standpoint...

When I was shopping Canons lately, the prices I found in stores and online in the U.S. for new camera models (not used or reconditioned) were about one-third less than the prices for the same models found at Tesco, Fortune Town, etc...

Actually, I was pretty amazed to find that. Office Depot right now is running an online special for the SD1000 Elph for $150, but they seem to be out of stock right now.

I had also been looking at the Canon A570 IS, which also was running about $150 best price in the U.S., but amazingly more like $225 or more here.

Clearly, one exception to the general cost of living dynamic for Thailand.

The only downside, I wondered about, is warranty coverage for a product bought in the U.S. might be problematic here... I'm not sure. Maybe others can advise: Will the Canon dealer shops here honor warranty service on U.S. purchased Canon products???

[Nordlys]

What other class of camera do you recommend? I am a former serious amateur photographer of print work, and had a fujica 51 mm at one time. Used that thing until it literally fell apart after 18 years. Haven't replaced with a "serious" camera. I became disillusioned with my first digital camera for serious work because of the time delay. Do you have recommendations?

There used to be what was called "prosumer" cameras when digital SLR was beyond the reach of most serious amateurs, many of which incorproated 2/3 " sensor which is larger than the sensor size of the compact at about the size of your finger nail (of pinky), but still significantly smaller than cropped sensor dSLR. This segment of digital camera vanished from the market since about 3 years ago as the price of entry-level dSLR started to come down, much lower than what those prosumer cameras once used to cost. There are a few what is called "high-end compact" models available today (e.g. Canon PowerShot G9 and Ricoh GR 2), but most don't come with RAW write mode (except those 2 models and takes only JPEG), fast lens (F2 or F2.8), wider zoom (with wide end at 24 or 28mm) and 2/3" size sensor, all of which were available on prosumer digicam. So it leaves you with only compact point-and-shoot or SLR, nothing much in between.

So-called "entry-level" dSLR price starts from anywhere around 20,000 Baht these days with a kit lens. Now that's a real bargain when prosumer cameras with much smaller size sensor (than dSLR) used to cost well over 40,000 Baht 3 eyars ago. What makes entry-level dSLR different from mid-level dSLR is mostly a matter of operability and quality of the body build (plastic bodies on cheap dSLR), but often they do come with the same sensor (if not similar quality) adopted on mid-level dSLR and thus capable of taking as good quality photos as higher-grade dSLR (most of which come with APS-C film size sensors with x1.6 or x1.5 crop factor). However, most lenses that come standard on those entry-level dSLRs in the package are often too cheap and crappy, much lower quality than the lenses that came fixed on prosumer non-SLR digitals. And often the resolving power of even the cheapest dSLR far exceeds that of the kit lens, so you're not taking pictures at the full potential of the camera when you only use kit lenses on them. dSLR being an SLR you have a freedom to choose and change your lens that fits on your camera mount but often lenses that can yield high resolution images can cost more than the camera body especially professional lenses (e.g. "L" lens from Canon) whose resolving power exceeds that of the entry-level dSLR sensors.

I don't know how to conclude this by telling you what camera to recommend without knowing your budget and/or needs. But if you've been a serious amateur photographer with film SLR you probably don't want to settle for anything less than entry-level dSLR (or even higher, I've been a long time film photographer myself and didn't want to settle with anything less than a camera with sensor size same as 35mm film when I was in market for dSLR). I'd also buy the largest sensor size camera I can afford if I'd go for dSLR. I've said in another thread that I'm a firm believer sensor size matters to the picture quality as much as pixel count if not more. You won't find shutter and power on start-up lag to be an issue with any new cameras these days SLR or compact. These days the speed of the camera is often limited by the write-speed of the memory card than the buffer memory space of the camera itself. Not sure if I have answered your question but hope this helps.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Nordlys

[Nordlys]

Buy in the U.S.for sure from a price standpoint...

Lowest prices in the U.S. is probably lower than in Thailand but digital camera prices are cheap enough in LOS these days including dSLR (unless it' a very new model). And from what I heard the difference isn't significant enough to justify having to order one on-line from Thailand which can end up costing more than the retail price here when shipping, duty (although minimal) and VAT all added up. I'd say buy it here if you're in Thailand and in the U.S. if you are there. You probably have to spend more on shipping alone than the difference of the price of Canon A570 IS between U.S. and Thailand if you order it to U.S.

The only downside, I wondered about, is warranty coverage for a product bought in the U.S. might be problematic here... I'm not sure. Maybe others can advise: Will the Canon dealer shops here honor warranty service on U.S. purchased Canon products???

No. Not unless you have international warranty. That said, they've once cleaned the sensor of my EOS 5D (a service that usually costs around B400 without a valid warranty) and attached a dust protection sealing around the focusing screen free of charge.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Nordlys

[kat]

Thanks so much for your comments everyone. I will definitely put your information to good use. Nordlys, you definitely taught me something about the sensors, and I will definitely file your post away so I can use it to shop for a SLR. I am going to wait until I can afford a good one, and for now buy a cheaper but good point and shoot like a Cannon or Lumix. I will investigate all of the suggestions here.

Thanks again!

[Firefoxx]

What DSLRs are MUCH better at than P&S cameras:

Response time: Instantaneous (turning on, taking a shot, etc).

Focus: Accurate, fast, can be used in even low light.

Flexibility: Flash, add-ons, lenses, manual modes.

Low noise: Noise at ISO 1600 on DLSRS is comparable to ISO 400 (or even 200) on most P&S's.

Battery life: 500+ photos on a single charge, more for the bigger models.

Picture quality: But really depends on the lens.

What DSLRS lack:

Movie mode.

Very deep DOF.

Compactness.

The "prosumer" P&S's aren't really a good choice anymore, with DSLRs so cheap these days. They're just beefed-up P&S's with some extra functions but with all the limitations of P&S's. You can get some really good kit lenses (like the new 18-55 IS from Canon) or you can get some good cheap third-party lenses, or expensive pro lenses. It's all up to your budget.

Price really depends on where you look. If you look at the big retail places, it's bound to be more expensive than the US. If you factor in seasonal sales and rebates, the gap widens. However, if you know where to shop and look at the normal US prices, then the prices are very similar to Thailand.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Buy in the U.S.for sure from a price standpoint...

Lowest prices in the U.S. is probably lower than in Thailand but digital camera prices are cheap enough in LOS these days including dSLR (unless it' a very new model). And from what I heard the difference isn't significant enough to justify having to order one on-line from Thailand which can end up costing more than the retail price here when shipping, duty (although minimal) and VAT all added up. I'd say buy it here if you're in Thailand and in the U.S. if you are there. You probably have to spend more on shipping alone than the difference of the price of Canon A570 IS between U.S. and Thailand if you order it to U.S.

The only downside, I wondered about, is warranty coverage for a product bought in the U.S. might be problematic here... I'm not sure. Maybe others can advise: Will the Canon dealer shops here honor warranty service on U.S. purchased Canon products???

No. Not unless you have international warranty. That said, they've once cleaned the sensor of my EOS 5D (a service that usually costs around B400 without a valid warranty) and attached a dust protection sealing around the focusing screen free of charge.

I take the opposite position on your price comments. I don't know what prices you are being quoted here. My experience has been that Thai vendors will not sell much below manufacturers suggested retail. If they do give a discount its usually fifty or one hundred baht. I use Minolta based digital equipment since I already had a large collection of lenses. I can buy a new Sony Alpha (successor to the Konica-Minolta SLRs) with a dealer supplied aftermarket international waranty from the US for a little more than half of what I have seen them offered for here. Shipping isn't that expensive. Duty on digital cameras is less than 5%. I believe under the current commitments it is 3.5%. Duty is assessed on cost plus shipping. VAT is assessed on cost plus shipping plus duty. Check out the dealers on Ebay offering new cameras. Most are gray market cameras direct imported from Japan at substantial savings over the manufacturers distributor prices. The bigger dealers usually provide an aftermarket warranty from Mack Camera that covers the camera internationally. The savings can be substantial. I would prefer to do business here but given the local attitude on competition and discounts I find it cheaper to buy abroad and pay shipping, duty and VAT. I recently wanted to add additional firewire ports on my computer. The best local price I could get for a board was 700 baht. The price for a board imported from China was 330 baht including shipping. I feel certain the price the Chinese vendor offered was not based on altruism. Another time I needed a large format film holder for a Jobo processing tube. The local vendor would not move off suggested retail price even when I showed them what I could buy it for from B&H Photo Video in the US. The B&H price was subtantially less than here even paying shipping and duty. Thais simply don't feel they have to compete particularly when dealing with foreigners. If you shop around you will generally find all the dealers here have very similar pricing. On less costly items it is probably cheaper to bite the bullet and buy locally though I chafe at the idea of being overcharged. Before purchasing locally do the math yourself. You can call the customs deparetment for the current duty rates then do the calculations on cost+insurance+shipping=CIS price. Then calculate the duty and add it to the CIS price. Then calculate the VAT on CIS+duty and add it in for your final cost. If you find a large savings abroad then it is probably better to buy and import.

Edited December 21, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Nordlys]

I am aware duty on photographic equipment is levied at 5%. Last I heard I was told it might be scrapped completely but I haven''t heard anything about 3.5%. I'm also aware duty is assessed on CIF. And 7% VAT on CIF + duty (so you always end up paying more VAT than import duty). And I agree sony products are ridiculously overpriced in Thailand, especially Alpha lenses (yet Sony salesman claims it's better than Nikkor or Canon EF lenses therefore it's justified, without elaborating how and why). Obviously Sony Thailand imposes strict price controls of its products among its dealers in Thailand, a business practice forbidden in its home market under antitrust law.

Sony is exceptional when I said digital cameras are not cheap enough outside Thailand to justify shipping, duty and VAT. I actually don't usually compare the prices in Thailand with the retail in U.S. as I base my comparison on prices in Japan because that's where I go visit at least once a year and the market where I'm most resourceful where and how to find bargain prices, not to mention that's where most of the cameras we buy come from (not that it's always the cheapest there just because they are made in Japan, but probably safe to say one of the cheapest places you can buy). In the past, before I found fotofile in MBK, I bought most of my cameras in Japan (5 out of 6). After fotofile, and the shops who followed fotofile's footstep started to emerge (world camera, big camera, etc), I've started buying them in Thailand (including Sony but not SLR and through special channel at close to wholesale price). I've bought all my Canon professional lenses (4 "L" lenses) at fotofile. Where it's cheaper really depends on the exchange rate at the time of the shopping, and sometimes fotofile price was higher than the cheapest price I can find in Japan, other times it was lower than the absolute lowest price I can find in Japan. But as long as it's cheaper than the average price in Japan and within 10 - 15% disparity of the lowest over price there I never really bothered wasting my time waiting to do the shopping till I go to Japan or ask my family member visiting Japan to go buy it for me (mind you, most online shops in Japan don't ship electronics overseas unlike American online shops). And what they sell at fotofile are not grey market import. They all came with Canon warranty valid in Thailand.

I bought my Canon EOS 5D in Japan two years ago for 120,000+ Baht (I could buy it cheaper but I chose to buy it at a reputable shop in Tokyo) when it was sold at fotofile for outrageous 170,000 Baht and it was the only shop in Thailand at the time that sold it as far as I remember. The last price I saw of 5D at fotofile was 89,900 Baht. They since went out of stock before the price further went down, but at the time the lowest price in Japan was around 79,000 Baht (further went down to 74,000+ Baht today), about 12% higher than the lowest price in Japan but still well lower than the average price there.

Top of the line Nikon dSLR (D3) was just released in Thailand early this month selling for 175,000 Baht. Today's lowest price I can find from price ranking site in Japan is roughly 165,000 Baht. I was pretty impressed with this camera and very tempted, and might buy one some day. But am I going to order it to Japan by paying extra on shipping, duty and VAT just to save 10,000 Baht? I probably end up having to pay more than the price available in Thailand (and not getting warranty).

Edited December 21, 2007 by Nordlys

[jfchandler]

Regarding dig cam purchasing locations, many of us, myself included, have to travel back to our home countries periodically for visa and/or family/holiday obligations.

Given the clearly wide pricing difference between U.S. "best price" retail options and those available here in LOS for consumer digital cameras, it only makes sense to wait a bit to make such purchases when one is back home.

If, on the other hand, I was in a situation where I was NEVER traveling back home, the price difference between shipping U.S. purchases to Thailand vs. buying here would narrow the gap quite a bit -- though not close it entirely based on my price checking. Combined with warranty issues, that might make a more compelling argument for purchasing here.

But, since I'm due to the airport next week for a Christmas flight out to the U.S., I'd be crazy and money foolish to go camera shopping here... now.... That's the clear, unarguable bottom line.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Here is a useful link for anyone contemplating direct import of cameras or other items. it's the APEC Tariff Database. You have to go through it a bit to learn to use it. Access is by registration which is free.

http://www.apectariff.org/

[Firefoxx]

Really, it all depends. If you're going to buy retail, at controlled prices, chances are you're going to find it cheaper elsewhere (the US or Japan). If you're going to buy at smaller shops, gray market, then chances are it's going to be close, or even cheaper here. For the US, you'll have to know where and when to shop to get the best bargains. There will be exceptions to the rule (Sony, for one), but that's the general idea. One thing is that a lot of newer items will not be available in Thailand. For example, Canon Thailand only recently officially introduced the HV20 HDV camcorder, even though it's been available elsewhere for many months (and hugely popular). Even so, you'll have to do some serious searching to actually find it being sold at a Thai shop.

I've bought camera stuff at both places (the US and Thailand), but of course it's much easier to buy in Thailand since it's where I am the most often. In the past, nearly everything I bought was from the US. Recently, I've gotten more savvy at buying stuff here, and the prices have come down quite a bit, so I've only bought a few items in the US which are still way too expensive in Thailand, since everything else is comparable (or even cheaper) here.

[kat]

I ended up buying a Cannon Powershot Elph SD1000, for 187.99 USD. The whole thing with tax, small case, and a 2GB SD card cost 227 USD (roughly 7655 baht). That is a much better deal in baht than when I was in Thailand.

[astral]

What DSLRS lack:

Very deep DOF.

Surely depth of field is related to focal length, not format?

Try a DSLR with a 10mm lens and just about everything is in focus.

Now that can be a plus or a minus, depending on the subject.

[Nordlys]

What DSLRS lack:

Very deep DOF.

Surely depth of field is related to focal length, not format?

Right but it also relates to the format. e.g. you need a 31.25mm wide lens on 1.6x cropped factor camera to get the same field of view you get from full sensor camera with 50mm lens, resulting in much deeper DOF than large sensor format camera.

Now that can be a plus or a minus, depending on the subject.

Right. You can say what point & shoot lack is very shallow DOF with nice bokeh.

[astral]

Right. You can say what point & shoot lack is very shallow DOF with nice bokeh.

None these days.

Probably never.

[jfchandler]

SD1000 is an excellent choice....very good reviews from almost everyone... and sexy stylish too!!! I am in the U.S. for the holidays, and was looking at that also, and several retailers were running specials on that here.

But I'm a big guy, and have big hands, so I ended up getting the Powershot A560, which felt better for me to hold. I paid about $70 U.S. less here in L.A. than the best price I had found in Thailand... Heading back home soon!!!!

[Nordlys]

The last price I saw of 5D at fotofile was 89,900 Baht. They since went out of stock before the price further went down, but at the time the lowest price in Japan was around 79,000 Baht (further went down to 74,000+ Baht today), about 12% higher than the lowest price in Japan but still well lower than the average price there.

I went to fotofile last weekend and found they've recently opened a 3rd outlet in mbk on 5th floor, dedicated only to Canon and Apple products (includes drop-off for Canon service center). They still have stocks of 5D and now at 67,500 Baht. I wonder if you can buy it cheaper anywhere else in the world.