Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[permanent_disorder]

Do you know ANYTHING about Thailand? ...

Damian

it's more like somekind of "the more I know, the less I know".

and you know EVERYTHING? or is it more a case of that you BELIEVE that you KNOW something.

gaining knowlegde is a never ending process. you seems to have stopped to taking part in that one and just be comfortable with stereotypes and black and white pictures.

[DamianMavis]

Do you know ANYTHING about Thailand? ...

Damian

it's more like somekind of "the more I know, the less I know".

and you know EVERYTHING? or is it more a case of that you BELIEVE that you KNOW something.

gaining knowlegde is a never ending process. you seems to have stopped to taking part in that one and just be comfortable with stereotypes and black and white pictures.

It is not a stereotype, it is a widely accepted fact, only some falangs dont know about it. Ask Thai people about how the police work here. Did you read any of the posts by Arkady or anyone else whos knowledge is much greater than mine?

Damian

[Arkady]

Ok this is thoroughly RIDICULOUS. Now all 3 people attacked the policeman..... CMON! Surely with this latest insane statement even the die hard defenders can see this is all lies?! Now the 2 falangs AND a thai man that would totally know better all simutaneously attacked the police officer. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Damian

Well it makes sense because Fuen is perhaps now being threatened with doing time for assaulting a policeman and trying to take his gun. Since the police could decline to recommend bail, he could spend two years on remand awaiting trial and being tried in the slow Thai courts. This prospect might help make his recollections of events more accomodating to Pai's finest. Since he was said to have been walking behind Del Pinto and Reisig he probably got a very clear view of what happened but has not yet made public his version.

[DamianMavis]

Ok this is thoroughly RIDICULOUS. Now all 3 people attacked the policeman..... CMON! Surely with this latest insane statement even the die hard defenders can see this is all lies?! Now the 2 falangs AND a thai man that would totally know better all simutaneously attacked the police officer. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Damian

Well it makes sense because Fuen is perhaps now being threatened with doing time for assaulting a policeman and trying to take his gun. Since the police could decline to recommend bail, he could spend two years on remand awaiting trial and being tried in the slow Thai courts. This prospect might help make his recollections of events more accomodating to Pai's finest. Since he was said to have been walking behind Del Pinto and Reisig he probably got a very clear view of what happened but has not yet made public his version.

Ya now they are correcting all thier mistakes, as just a witness Fuen was a loose end but not anymore, now hes a criminal since they are now saying he assualted a police officer... geeze this is horrible..... I told everyone, nothing is going to happen to the cop, NOTHING.

Damian

Edited January 10, 2008 by DamianMavis

[CarlBkk]

Not a great deal has been said about the victim so far, but his Facebook profile already has several messages of condolences (name Leo John). From reading his profile you can see his photos and an insight into his character to some extent (serious about child and animal welfare etc.).

[kat]

*To earlier posters who seemed to have a problem with people talking about the endemic nature of corruption in Thai culture:

Corruption in Thailand is a fact, and so is its history. If you have a problem understanding how the origins of the civil service system of patron/client relationships evolved from the Sak Dina system into its current state, and cuts across every bureaucratic institution in Thailand including the police, you are the one who is seeing things off color. I am not saying things are black and white, but if you are going to try and bully people into refraining from calling a spade a spade, then you are behaving like the ignorant one here. There's a remedy for ignorance - read:

The Thai Village Economy in the Past by Chatthip Nartsupha

Pasuk Pongphaichit and Chris Baker - all of their books, and her website: http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk/papers.htm

David K. Wyatt

Transparency International //www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/2007-transparency-international-corruption-perceptions.html

*added

Edited January 10, 2008 by kat

[yorkman]

Corruption in Thailand is a fact, and so is it's history. If you have a problem understanding how the origins of the civil service system of patron/client relationships evolved from the Sak Dina system into its current state, and cuts across every bureaucratic institution in Thailand including the police, you are the one who is seeing things off color. I am not saying things are black and white, but if you are going to try and bully people into refraining from calling a spade a spade, then you are behaving like the ignorant one here. There's a remedy for ignorance - read:

The Thai Village Economy in the Past by Chatthip Nartsupha

Pasuk Pongphaichit and Chris Baker - all of their books, and her website: http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk/papers.htm

David K. Wyatthttp:

Transparency International //www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/2007-transparency-international-corruption-perceptions.html

Thou protest too much.

If you don't like Thailand, why do you post here? If you don't like it, and it does not suit all I agree, why do you hang on posting when you move elsewhere?

Resentment because of failed ambitions? I dont know, but this is starting to look like a rant for a rants sake.

Many are happy here, perhaps you mixed in the wrong circles?

[Tony Clifton]

Regardless of who punched who, the Policeman should be severely punished for escalating the event into an unnecessary fatality.

If indeed the drunk farang couple were going after the drunk cop's gun, as some versions state, then all bets are off. If I were a cop and someone was trying to take a firearm away from me, I retrieved the firearm, and the people were then still coming after me, I might shoot too. And regardless of the type of handgun, hitting a target less than two meters away does not take much skill. And with the adrenaline rushing, firing three shots in rapid succession, again regardless of the make of the handgun, also takes little skill. It would appear that all sides share some blame in this tragedy although ultimately the policeman must take the blame for pulling the trigger.

What should he have done to prevent his gun being taken ?

He should have stayed the f$% out of that situation, period, he had apparently misjudged the situation twice already.

1- Even with a gun , he was outnumbered with no backup.

2-There was no fight where he saw one.

Jeez! First glance at your avatar I thought it was Charles Sobhraj

Edited January 10, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[kat]

Corruption in Thailand is a fact, and so is it's history. If you have a problem understanding how the origins of the civil service system of patron/client relationships evolved from the Sak Dina system into its current state, and cuts across every bureaucratic institution in Thailand including the police, you are the one who is seeing things off color. I am not saying things are black and white, but if you are going to try and bully people into refraining from calling a spade a spade, then you are behaving like the ignorant one here. There's a remedy for ignorance - read:

The Thai Village Economy in the Past by Chatthip Nartsupha

Pasuk Pongphaichit and Chris Baker - all of their books, and her website: http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk/papers.htm

David K. Wyatthttp:

Transparency International //www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/2007-transparency-international-corruption-perceptions.html

Thou protest too much.

If you don't like Thailand, why do you post here? If you don't like it, and it does not suit all I agree, why do you hang on posting when you move elsewhere?

Resentment because of failed ambitions? I dont know, but this is starting to look like a rant for a rants sake.

Many are happy here, perhaps you mixed in the wrong circles?

You can call it whatever you like, but I have facts to back up my statements. And you?

As for the rest: a simplistic attack from a probable simpleton that doesn't even warrant a response.

[DamianMavis]

Corruption in Thailand is a fact, and so is it's history. If you have a problem understanding how the origins of the civil service system of patron/client relationships evolved from the Sak Dina system into its current state, and cuts across every bureaucratic institution in Thailand including the police, you are the one who is seeing things off color. I am not saying things are black and white, but if you are going to try and bully people into refraining from calling a spade a spade, then you are behaving like the ignorant one here. There's a remedy for ignorance - read:

The Thai Village Economy in the Past by Chatthip Nartsupha

Pasuk Pongphaichit and Chris Baker - all of their books, and her website: http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk/papers.htm

David K. Wyatthttp:

Transparency International //www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/2007-transparency-international-corruption-perceptions.html

Thou protest too much.

If you don't like Thailand, why do you post here? If you don't like it, and it does not suit all I agree, why do you hang on posting when you move elsewhere?

Resentment because of failed ambitions? I dont know, but this is starting to look like a rant for a rants sake.

Many are happy here, perhaps you mixed in the wrong circles?

Jeeze man, we just want people to know the truth and be aware, and we would like justice but that is a pipe dream here. Doesnt matter how happy some of us are here! Why do you take us stating the situation with Thai police as an attack on you and your personal happiness? Because we make you see things you dont want to see as it might upset your idea of paradise?! I guess all those papers she linked you too are not of interest to you no matter what FACTS might be printed in them as it would only make you a little unhappy? If you prefer ignorance that is your choice, it is YOU that should not post here then.

Damian

Edited January 10, 2008 by DamianMavis

[A_Traveller]

Victim tells of earlier clash with police

Woman admits fight with another cop as tale of 'gun-blazer' emerges

Published on January 11, 2008

After the shooting of two young Canadians in Pai, locals are torn on the cause of the drama.

People are unsure whether to believe a 24-year-old Canadian woman, who some claim is a troublemaker, or a 37-year-old Thai police sergeant, with a reputation for drinking - and shooting his gun off.

Controversy is raging in Pai, in Canada, and on the Internet. The only established facts are that 24-year-old tourist John 'Leo' del Pinto is dead, after being shot in the head and chest.

His companion Carly Reisig, also 24, was also shot in the chest, but survived. She may be the only witness against Police Sergeant Uthai Dechawiwat, who has been charged with murder and manslaughter.

On Monday, Reisig, from British Columbia, was adamant police claims the sergeant shot in self-defence were untrue. The policeman had hit her without provocation, she said. Then, after del Pinto threw him to the ground, the officer, in plainclothes, got out his gun and deliberately fired into del Pinto's head, then his chest, before firing at her.

In Canada, del Pinto is regarded as a hero for going to Carly's aid. But yesterday she admitted she had been involved in heated rows in the past in Pai and had herself struck a Thai policeman.

Reisig said that two months before del Pinto arrived in Thailand from Calgary, she had intervened in a scuffle in a bar involving a tourist and a former Thai boyfriend called 'Nui'.

"The Israeli guy hit my Thai boyfriend and I tried to break it up ... the police came and took them outside and they circled around Nui and were pushing him, so ... I went in there and hit one of the cops. I was very drunk that night," she said.

On another occasion she said she was involved in a fight at a regular party at a nearby arts market called Pittalew with her current boyfriend Rattaporn Varawadee, nicknamed "Fuen".

Reisig, however, stuck to her claim Police Sgt Major Uthai was the one who struck the first blow at 2am last Sunday. "Leo and I were always messing around and play-fighting. We might have even been yelling at each other, play-fighting, but it didn't give anyone the right to shoot us. The guy who did this was crazy."

But Thai witnesses now insist it was Reisig, not the officer, who started the fight.

Kanasphuchit Sankam, owner of a karaoke bar, who was eating at the noodle shop, said: "I watched the couple come up, punching each other and yelling... It didn't look like they were pretending, it looked like a real fight ...

"I watched Uthai go over to try and stop the fight. He said 'Stop, I am police' and held out his hand in front of him, with his other hand ready to draw his gun. They pushed him over and he got his gun out.

"The girl started crying loudly and he told her to calm down and go and sit down. The policeman then started walking away from the scene, but the girl got up and hit him.

"Leo then joined her in hitting him and they all fell onto the ground. I couldn't see them anymore because of the parked cars, but I heard three shots go off. If the girl had not provoked him, it wouldn't have happened."

A similar story, in almost uncannily identical words, was told by the noodle shop owner. But the Thai witnesses deny seeing the actual shooting.

Meanwhile, an American known as Rob, said he believed Reisig's version of events "largely because the accused officer has a reputation for gunplay".

Rob told Canadian papers he attended a concert in Pai last year during which Uthai fired into the air several times.

"He was drunk. All the off-duty officers were drinking together. He fired his weapon into the air and everyone had to scatter. He has a reputation in town for pulling out his weapon," he said.

Police investigator Lt-Col Sombat Panya has already given a reason for the couple fighting. He said del Pinto, recently arrived in Thailand, found out Reisig was pregnant to her Thai boyfriend Fuen. Reisig, however, denies being pregnant.

Witnesses also say Uthai was earlier drunk in the BeBop Bar. Witnesses supporting the police version will give their names. Those supporting Reisig won't.

As in the case of British backpackers gunned down by a policeman in Kanchanaburi in 2004, it seems unlikely Reisig will be able to produce witnesses to prove her side of the story. The only uncontested evidence may be forensic, which is in the hands of local police.

But, Sgt Uthai, who claims his gun fired accidentally, may have to explain how three bullets hit vital targets so accurately.

Andrew Drummond,Cindy Tilney

Special to The Nation

Chiang Mai

LINK

/edited to add link//

Edited January 10, 2008 by A_Traveller

[JimsKnight]

It's all on the thai boyfriend of Reisig to do the right thing and tell the truth. As it stands he was the closest and 'in-amoungst' it when it all kicked off. Otherwise it'll be Reisig's word against Panya's.

[permanent_disorder]

Not a great deal has been said about the victim so far, but his Facebook profile already has several messages of condolences (name Leo John). From reading his profile you can see his photos and an insight into his character to some extent (serious about child and animal welfare etc.).

nah, that means nothing or not much. you can see also a lot of pictures him party and allways a beer bottle in the hand. in one picture he looks really stoned and one guy sitting behind him rolling a joint.

and i have a mutual friend with him. so much form beeing part in the group " Six Degrees Of Separation - The Experiment "

there was also a statement from his brother in law, that he work in thailand in a tattoo shop but he will start to work as a english teacher. but for that he would need a haircut.

but the impression i get is he looks more than a tree hugher then a hooligan start to fights in a pub or are out just looking for trouble.

a sad and tragical loss.

maybe he mix with the wrong people at the wrong time in the wrong place. given what we heard about the other victum, his ex-girlfriend, even in her own words from incident in the past and also given what we know about thai police man, or thai man, specially when drunk.

[farang prince]

In any homicide investigation, it is ALWAYS the evidence that spells the difference between an acquital or a conviction. Eyewitness testimony is often unreliable. In this case, I would discount all eyewitness testimony and look at the physical evidence. It should tell what really happened.

[permanent_disorder]

Jeeze man, we just want people to know the truth and be aware, and we would like justice but that is a pipe dream here.

the problem is you can find the truth when you start asking question and don't believe everything.

someone told you. and you have to have really clear evidence when you claim to know the truth (if something like that exist at all - remember the cinamatic recommendation someone gave you)

when people here doubt that everything what the female victim told on the sick bed is 100% true you jumped on any of them how can there be the any doubt.

you found the truth allready just with making simplified statements on the internet.

it's often said, that thais when they get angry and furious they are really exploding, over the top, out of control. is maybe true but i has somekind of deep culture reason. because in that society you have to stay calm all the time, take it with a smile, avoid to complain and to criticise even something piss you really off.

that way you collect all your anger until the big explosion.

and i don't know how some of the allday thai bashing and protesting poster would act in a really enervating situation, if they could not let some steam off in their armchair rants.

your crusade here will change nothing. if you think they life of the female victim is in danger, let's group up with your buddies. support her in real life, try to get the media attention, your canadian embassy to do some work, if there is a lack off as you and other complain.

sitting here, holding lesson how bad thai police is and that you know the truth helps nobody

your self introduction that you don't hang out with hookers (but your friends getting beat up nighttime on a suk&vomit road bar), or have a 'other' (better?) contact with 'other' (better?) thais then a lot off other farangs. silly you, that is not convincing. that you hang out with more educated thais (how it comes that you then eyewitness so much violence?)

[DamianMavis]

Jeeze man, we just want people to know the truth and be aware, and we would like justice but that is a pipe dream here.

the problem is you can find the truth when you start asking question and don't believe everything.

someone told you.

In this particular case I dont believe the police (I fully admit bias and wouldnt believe much of anything the police would say in most situations since as far as I can tell they have a massive reputation for untruthfulness and will say or do anything to protect themselves and they will support eachother) I am willing to accept witness accounts but then I have to consider the fact that the police have the power of fear of retribution to pressure witnesses to support the police.

and you have to have really clear evidence when you claim to know the truth (if something like that exist at all - remember the cinamatic recommendation someone gave you)

No you totally misunderstood, I NEVER claimed to know the truth about this situation no matter how obvious it is to me, the truth we have been talking about this whole time that you refuse to pick up on is the truth that the police are a massive mafia that can do whatever they want with no fear of consequences, and that totally relates to this situation obviously.

when people here doubt that everything what the female victim told on the sick bed is 100% true you jumped on any of them how can there be the any doubt.

No I didnt. I was arguing that it was foolish to take the police version seriously (with thier history of covering and lying and killing with no consequence) or the witnesses that are under the power of the police. You are under the power of someone when they have the power to kill you and nothing will be done to protect you or get justice and you KNOW this. I believe her story but I can totally understand others not believing. I simply will never accept the police version 100%. It keeps getting more and more outrageous.

you found the truth allready just with making simplified statements on the internet.

The truth I was talking about was about the police in Thailand in general.

it's often said, that thais when they get angry and furious they are really exploding, over the top, out of control. is maybe true but i has somekind of deep culture reason. because in that society you have to stay calm all the time, take it with a smile, avoid to complain and to criticise even something piss you really off.

that way you collect all your anger until the big explosion.

and i don't know how some of the allday thai bashing and protesting poster would act in a really enervating situation, if they could not let some steam off in their armchair rants.

Culture or whatever is no excuse, there is no reason to kill people over embarassment which often happens. I swallow my pride all the time no matter how angry I get.

your crusade here will change nothing. if you think they life of the female victim is in danger, let's group up with your buddies. support her in real life, try to get the media attention, your canadian embassy to do some work, if there is a lack off as you and other complain.

sitting here, holding lesson how bad thai police is and that you know the truth helps nobody

your self introduction that you don't hang out with hookers (but your friends getting beat up nighttime on a suk&vomit road bar),

I didnt say my friend got beat up, he witnessed the man get killed. I didnt say I dont hang out wih hookers, I just dont go shopping for them, Im not above talking to them if the situation arose (Im always as polite as I can be when talking to all types of people here) and I certainly dont judge people that do shop for them. And dont you dare suggest people are of low character simply because they are out at night on Sukhumvit! I dont drink but I still go to Discos too!

or have a 'other' (better?) contact with 'other' (better?) thais then a lot off other farangs. silly you, that is not convincing. that you hang out with more educated thais (how it comes that you then eyewitness so much violence?)

I didnt mean to come off as a snobby elitist but obviously I did. I was reacting to a personality attack of who I hang out with, so spoke plainly about the kind of people I hang out with. I am not one of those falangs that thinks hes better than others, I do not judge the older guys with their young girlfriends... I have no idea how I will be when I am older and if Im single!

Edited January 10, 2008 by DamianMavis

[rigpigonjuice]

I would like to state my personal experience about witnessing a violent crime. I am from Edmonton,Alberta Canada. I was witness to a robbery in Edmonton. The witness accounts of what happened and the CCTV showed a vast difference. My statement to the RCMP concurred with the evidence of the CCTV tape. There were 6 eyewitnesses to the robbery and I was the only one to see what the camera saw. In a stressful situation people's vision can often be blurred. I am not advocating what has happened, but making a simple statement that the eyewitness accounts of a crime will vary.

We need hard forensic proof to back up the claims of the shooting.

This we will never have. TIT.

Love it or leave it. Rigpig

[tattoodrob]

thats all well and good but here in thailand the physical evidence wil be in the cops favour as it is his friends that are investigating!!!so can match the evidence to his story.

i think it will all be down to the best witness there which is fuen.....where are the reports of what he has said..weve heard everything but!!!

maybe hes in a dilemma,he wants to be with the farang so might want his story to be in her favour but then again he is thai and knows what the repercussions could be if he goes against a cop......i wouldnt like to be in his shoes but i think he will be pressured to talk against the farang.....i just wish he could tell the truth no matter what it is.whatever happens it will die down in the press then be swept under the carpet.who is going to pressure the police to put one of there own in the monkey house,this happens time and time again but doesnt even get known to any press especially outside thailand.....maybe the consulars should keep on top of it after the fact but even they can be lied to easily !!!

basically we are in a very corrupt country and dont really have any rights at all when it comes down to it........and its who you know that wins everytime so whatever we can never win whether in the right or not.

the country is great but the people who run it arent,thaksin will only come back when hes sorted it out from outside the country.....he will pay the right people off or use his friends to make him look ok in the end,then he will be back.end of rant

[tattoodrob]

Gosh, such sensational posts! But for your information the woman (who as not the dead guy's wife), as of an hour ago, is safe and recovering in a Chiang Mai hospital after her gunshot wound to the chest. Perhaps it would be best to wait for some proper reporting before we all jump to fantastic conclusions and speculations.

who said she was the dead guys wife.......i missed that one.also we know that she is recovering in hospital,dont we????

what is proper reporting? there are only stories and thats what we get,and they seem to keep changing abit at that.il jump to a fantastic conclusion...the cop wont get what he deserves no matter what.

did the canadians have weapons............no........was he(the cop) in danger of losing his life ........i dont think so..........total over reaction even if he was attacked which may be a possibility but why did he intervene...when thai gf an thai bf argue then nothing would even be said to them.

[cognos]

I just returned to Vancouver from getting engaged to a lovely inside and out, conservative (read no bar girl, although I respect bar girls, they are just doing the best they can for themselves and their families) lady from Phuket. In the local papers here the blond lady that got shot says that the dead guy was her ex boyfriend,not husband as they reported in Thailand. She stated that they had been boyfirend girlfriend in the past,but had broken up and were still " best friends " as she says. She did have an affair with the Thai fellow,she admits that,but if what she says is true,she is single and free to do as she pleases.That is the side of the story from here...

[jumnien]

I just returned to Vancouver from getting engaged to a lovely inside and out, conservative (read no bar girl, although I respect bar girls, they are just doing the best they can for themselves and their families) lady from Phuket. In the local papers here the blond lady that got shot says that the dead guy was her ex boyfriend,not husband as they reported in Thailand. She stated that they had been boyfirend girlfriend in the past,but had broken up and were still " best friends " as she says. She did have an affair with the Thai fellow,she admits that,but if what she says is true,she is single and free to do as she pleases.That is the side of the story from here...

Anything in the Vancouver press that can enlighten us regarding her tatooed balls orbiting her left eye?

[taxexile]

conservative (read no bar girl, although I respect bar girls, they are just doing the best they can for themselves and their families) lady from Phuket

well thanks for clearing that up for us.

we have all been on the edge of our seats fretting and wondering about the social status of the girlfriend of an anonymous poster and whether or not he could be the type of person who has tendencies to show disrespect to those in the sex - service industry.

thank you so much for answering our unasked questions and putting our troubled minds to rest.

[eljeque]

From where did this piece of information surface ...... more than 4 days after the event, with the culprit out on bail for at least 3 and a half of those?

(Reuters)

[Tolley]

Off course they are some good cops and others who are bad or corrupt are not bad or corrupt all the time. I have had good and bad experiences with Thai cops. I have been involved in two traffic accidents where the cops treated me absolutely fairly despite being a farang in a collision with a Thai. I have also been in a situation where a police captain spent four hours holding me in the station threatening me and trying to extort money out of me for getting in the way of a motorcyclist who was so drunk that he couldn't speak clearly, as acknowledged by the traffic cop at the scene who promised to support my version but disappeared soon afterwards and without coming back to the station. (I didn't pay but also didn't get home till the early hours when he finished his shift). I once had police come to my office to try to frame me for something invented by a politician looking for a random foreign scapegoat for something that was fortunately so absurd that it wouldn't stick and they eventually backed off and apologised. I have also had the comic aggravation of police stepping out from behind a bush at 2 in the morning and catching me do an illegal right turn when there was not a car in sight (fair cop but is it a worthwhile allocation of taxpayer's resources?). Whenever I go to my local cop shop on routine matters such as reporting lost documents I find they are always incredibly friendly and helpful and I genuinely believe that I get better service because I am a farang.

Whatever your individual experiences with police and the wishes of some to label others as jaded farangs, as Damian says, you will have to acknowledge sooner or later, if you stay here long enough, what Thai people accept i.e. that the police is unfortunately a corrupt institution from top to bottom. The pyramid system I have described earlier in this thread means that from entering the force a young police is forced into corruption whether he likes it or not. Anyone who sets himself up as squeaky clean will be left in a dreary backwater somewhere while he sees his contemporaries get promoted and make money. Some police academy graduates may have private money and connections and they may be able to get interesting jobs out of the mainstream like Interpol liaison where well educated honest officers are required. But the vast majority who can't hack the corruption/patronage system will either whither away and quit the force or they will adapt to the system and get their noses into the trough. The system demands that every one has dirt on every one else, so the first priority has to be brother officers whatever they may have done because every one knows too much. Many try to be good cops as far as the system allows and they are the ones who are a credit to the force but they can't go too far. A famous good cop from the provinces who was poor but a bright overachiever got promoted to a good job in Bangkok. But because he wouldn't tow the line with local gansters from his province his mother and sister were brutally murdered and he could not do anything to bring the culprits to justice. Low salaries and budgets reinforce the system. Police would have trouble supporting their families on low salaries and having a nice gun and motorbike to keep up with the Joneses. Lack of equipment, gasoline allowances, travel allowances etc mean that police are forced into a profit center mentality. Apart those who may have direct involvement in illegal businesses which take time away from police work, officers have to prioritise investigations based on likely profitability or at least avoid those that will be loss making. This means that travelling to another province as part of an nvestigation of a low profile crime against a poor person would not be economically viable because no one would pay the travel expenses. There is also an opportunity cost. On the other hand wealthy Thais would understand this problem and pay expenses and other gratuities to police to investigate a crime against them. In fact this can turn into a bidding war. The police are not as powerful as they were in the 50s, 60s and 70s under military dictatorships but they are still immensely powerful. Many politicians find them useful to bolster their own power like Thaksin and their powers increased under the TRT government. Others have found they can't do much about them like Sarayudh and the CNS (probably because the senior ranks know too much about corruption in the military). The bottom line is that the force is in no one way accountable to tax payers who fund them because the tax payers cannot provide enough for their needs. Much of this is well documented by reputable Thai academics and when a famous report came out from Chulalongkorn University that detailed the whole system including exact prices paid for various police positions in different locations, the police didn't even bother to issue a denial. Yes there are good cops and bad cops but the good ones are severely limited by being a part of the system.

If the rose tinted brigade stay long enough and have enough interactions with mainstream Thai society, they eventually get to see this the same way as the Thais, without the shades.

Excellent post.

Unfortunately for many people before they come to Thailand they don't read university studies on the methods and mechanisms of the Thai police constabulary.

It should also not be forgotten that in many so called advanced western countries you don't have to go back too many years and there were also high levels of police corruption.

Australia is a prime example where there were many examples of rampant police corruption at the very highest levels back in the seventies and eighties.

While there is undoubtedly still police corruption in Australia the institutionalised nature of that corruption is not of the same level these days.

Just as an aside to what can go on with the police in Thailand i have my own experience with a case where my girlfriends brother was charged with rape of a 14 year old girl. Even thou he didn't rape here he did have relations with her and she was under age so her family went to the local police station up north in the boonies and told the police who went to my girlfriends brother and brokered a deal whereby he had to pay her family 40K baht to get the charges dropped otherwise he would go to gaol for 10 years. So the role of police is a very different one to what we see here in our western societies.

[jackr]

At the end of the day, who gives a f*** about bs stories! Perhaps the girl likes her drink and mouths off on occasion, so what; the lad a bit of a hippy-type on weed on occasion, so what. We all know the story here. The cop was pissed and lost face through being shoved and the facts are that a kid was blown away and another badly wounded and the cop with the smoking gun has not a blemish on him. The cops will do their utmost to come out clean, witnesses will be threatened, this bs system will once again prevail and Thailand will once again take a huge step back towards the Stone age.

Edited January 11, 2008 by jackr

[Journalist]

The loss of Sir Edmund Hillary is of greater consequence to the world than these two hippies. (Irrespective of the brutal circumstances)

These 31 pages on them is possibly their summit achievement in life

[kat]

Well, now that one was cut short, yes, and the other only 24.

[brahmburgers]

At the end of the day, who gives a f*** about bs stories! Perhaps the girl likes her drink and mouths off on occasion, so what; the lad a bit of a hippy-type on weed on occasion, so what. We all know the story here. The cop was pissed and lost face through being shoved and the facts are that a kid was blown away and another badly wounded and the cop with the smoking gun has not a blemish on him. The cops will do their utmost to come out clean, witnesses will be threatened, this bs system will once again prevail and Thailand will once again take a huge step back towards the Stone age.

I agree. The Thai cop-clean-up machine is running full steam. All the usual elements are in force: telling witnesses what to say, threatening witnesses that if they don't say the right thing, they're in big trouble, casting aspersions at the girl who should be dead, but amazingly survived - though now has a bullet permanently lodged near her heart.

There is no excuse whatsoever for the plain-clothes cop shooting his gun with deadly force. If the Thai non-justice system succeeds is covering up this heineous crime, then my already low opinion of it has just sunk 5 notches lower.

He deserves the death penalty or at the least, life behind bars with no chance of pardon or parole. I'll repeat my earlier assertion that all cops and their superiors (on up to the top of the heap) in Thailand should get docked one week of pay - with the proceeds going to the families of the two farang, and the surviving girl.

If the cops take that week off in protest, so be it. We won't miss them.

[Journalist]

This is a dead story, Kat.

Thats why your Thai papers aren't covering it anymore. Reporters can only do second day-leads if there is some fresh angle. (Unless their subbies are uncommonly nice, but 99% of Sub Editors are cruelty personified - so that seldom happens).

Katherine Horton in Ko Samui, backpackers in Kanchanaburi. The moral of this story is 'shit happens'.

"He deserves the death penalty or at the least, life behind bars with no chance of pardon or parole. I'll repeat my earlier assertion that all cops and their superiors (on up to the top of the heap) in Thailand should get docked one week of pay - with the proceeds going to the families of the two farang, and the surviving girl. "

Magic mushroom omelette for breakfast, anyone?

Edited January 11, 2008 by Journalist

[threelegcowboy]

Not a great deal has been said about the victim so far, but his Facebook profile already has several messages of condolences (name Leo John). From reading his profile you can see his photos and an insight into his character to some extent (serious about child and animal welfare etc.).

Could you post here in TV his pics and all info contained there. There is alot of members in Facebook of simular description etc. You also have to sign up.

thx