Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Maxi101]

Some news from Pai.

1. It has been confirmed by police, and corroborated by two civilian witnesses willing to go on record, that on the previous occasion where Carly Reisig struck local police, she had been fighting with her former Thai boyfriend, Nui.

According to the owner of Be-Bop, the fight began inside his bar around midnight. He called the police, who arrived and asked the couple to leave the bar. Carly pushed one of the officers and kneed another, according to the owner and another witness, a local Thai musician (who she also struck, during the melee). The police then escorted Carly and Nui outside to cool off. Outside between Be-Bop and Grooveyard, they continued screaming at each other according to an American resident of Pai who was outside when the events took place. Police arrested the couple and took them to the station for drug tests. The tests were negative and the couple was released shortly thereafter, uncharged. According to the police, and to eyewitnesses at the station that night, the police asked them both to leave town and never come back. They left town and Nui never came back. Reisig soon returned.

2. There is one witness from Daeng's claiming that Feun (Reisig's current boyfriend) started the fight that resulted in Sgt Maj Uthai's approach. This witness is willing to go on record and be named, and has no apparent connection to the police.

3. A Canadian journalist here (now in BKK) told one of the editors of the Pai Post that the police allowed him to handle the policeman's pistol, which had already been dusted for prints and remanded as evidence. He said it was a double-action semi-automatic fitted with a hair trigger.

4. So far none of the foreign journalists who have come to Pai to follow this story have stayed longer than one night.

Well I hope some of my former attackers see the light.

[permanent_disorder]

but where and when can we get a non prejudicial view on the police man? instead of stereotyping him (all thai police are corrupt and kill without feel remorseful) give him a human face, is he lovely family man, teach also the other kids in his soi how to obey the traffic laws or is he a ruthless person and have a history of misbehave? if we shed light on this then we have another piece of the puzzle what happend that night.

No, his personal life and whether or not he is a family man who teaches kids traffic lessons in his soi has absolutely no bearing on this case whatsoever, unless we are talking about the Thai criminal justice system. His personal life is only important at the point in which it intersects with this case: was he drunk, is he often drunk, and has he made bad judgment calls with a weapon before as an on-duty and off-duty cop.

The only reason why history would be important is to ascertain whether or not they are lying in their current accounts, and we can tell from both accounts that there is shifting going on from all sides.

ohh. i was mostly referring to the work of the quality journalist Andrew Drummond who wrote that 'well balanced' article starting with "Cop 'executed my best friend'" and ended with "he killing in the idyllic tourist village of Pai has the semblance of another police "loss of face" execution." and far away from being a sensation-seeking he even called at night time the father of the female Kanchanaburi victim to get his opinion. (quote: " Last night Graham Arscott, the father of Vanessa Arscott, 23, who was gunned down in Kanchanaburi with her boyfriend Adam Lloyd, 24, by Police Sgt-Major Wisetsingh said: "So sad. I feel so terribly sorry for this young man's family.") gosh.

yeah, in that really fine piece we got the information that the 'victim' "worked in Canada with physically and mentally handicapped people."

so why we don't get some information about the life of the police man? to get the whole picture?

you want to know? because it will maybe not fix the black&white story of Andrew Drummond. he is not interessted in unbiased reporting. thats not selling, he wants to dramatize, he is storytelling.

look at his letter to the editor where he apologise that he bring up some 'facts' that reisig was a troublemaker, that he was so naive to do that in his standard of quality journalism, because now it bring a bad light on reisig. and quote (drummond): "While the facts presented were true, they have been wrongly taken in a malicious way by many, including "long-term resident expert foreigners", as a reason to justify the attack on the two young Canadians."

did he just say "long-term resident expert foreigners" and put it in""? har har, seems drummond is reading TV, but not thoroughly. nobody will here justify this tragedy. we just try to find out what it is and what happend. you have to look from different angles. and it looks more like some deviant behaviour tweens got in a brawl with a police officer in a foreign country. the dead of del pinto more a case of meeting the wrong people at the wrong time. reisig is not a 100% innocent angel poster girl. and there was no cold-blooded killing or execution. but the story then is maybe not so well selling, not dramatical enough.

so what does or quality journalist now? Is he going to Pai and find out the "truth"? nahh, it not worth the trouble, because nobody in Pai confirmed the version from reisig. they are all under presure of the police and afraid. even sub rosa they will not tell the 'truth' drammond want to write about.

but someone have to push his drama. now comes his "Safe passage to Canada sought for Thai witness of Pai killing" make up a story that resig and her thai boyfriend have to fear for their lives. so they family of del pinto in "a statement issued through their spokesman". mhm, sounds like the family holding press conferences or is it just andrew drummand making a telefon call with the fiance of del pinto sister and told him reisig is in danger and we need some gas for page one? for sure, there will be some sweep under the carpet by the police. but reisig in danger of life? and drummond the fearless journalist? nahh. that are stories that the veterans at some plaza places in bangkok telling the freshmen.

Andrew Drummond does not do some serious investigation in that case. it is rhinoceros journalism for mickey mouse newspapers and monkey readers.

i have no problem with that, he found his way to make a living. you just can not take it at face value.

you can not trust or believe the thai police, as well you can not trust or believe "the sun".

just for speculation, what kind of press this case would have given in the west, if some punk and a tramp get in fight with the police officer? is not so seldom that a delinquent teenager or tween getting killed in a police operation. guess only indymedia.org would make a fuzz about it and the mainstream media would not scare their readership with to side with some hooligan or drunken immigrant kids. no way. but if the same kid gets killed in thailand, okay we can put up some story to boost the national proud and solidarity and rant against an other country.

[BarryMan]

Ya its kind of silly comparing the 3 cases and wondering why one is discussed more than others. If the JAPANESE girl case was dealing with an english speaking victim I bet there would be alot more posts from for example... THE JAPANESE haha, but this is an english forum. Im sure on a Japanese forum all in Japanese the debate reached a higher post count.

The police killings is pretty straight forward, 3 cops killed, 3 culprits executed although unproven but obvious, also Thai people wont post here either.

The Canadian case is full of opposing witness accounts, great stuff for a debate and it is about Western victims so attracts alot of english speaking posters to an english site.

Damian

Quick note re: the Japanese comparison that has come up here. To be fair, I believe at the time of that incident that the Surayud government officially apologized to Japan on behalf of Thailand. Yep, just checked and that's right: Surayud offered official condolences on behalf of the Thai government. There has been no such expression of grief on this case, possibly because of the unclear circumstances surrounding the incident, though one would think that the violent death (regardless of how the incident started) of a foreign national on Thai soil would be enough to merit condolences being sent along to Canada and the family. Even just "We would like to express our grief at this incident, and assure the family that the investigation into the shootings will proceed fairly... etc", -- seems diplomatically that such a statement would be in order (though Thailand's ties with Japan are far more important to it than those with Canada, but still).

PS - Sabaijai: Any word on a forensics report? Where is it being done and when it's going to be released?

I think we've pretty much run the gamut on things that we could possibly talk about until that report is released. All debates have been exhausted it would seem.

The Canadian autopsy is underway (or possibly already has been completed) but I would think that the forensics conducted after the shooting would be the most important piece of the puzzle. Given the late hour of when the incident took place, the forensics report might be the only non-drunk witness we have in this case.

Edited January 15, 2008 by BarryMan

[BarryMan]

Andrew Drummond does not do some serious investigation in that case. it is rhinoceros journalism for mickey mouse newspapers and monkey readers.

i have no problem with that, he found his way to make a living. you just can not take it at face value.

you can not trust or believe the thai police, as well you can not trust or believe "the sun".

Spot on. That is not a popular sentiment here on TV, but I'm glad to see it raised by someone else. That report was hugely prejudicial. Your analysis of it was sound and you are correct that it was improper for him to interview the father of Vanessa Arscott about this case. In these kinds of stories implications speak just as loud as statements of opinion and by bringing in Kanchanaburi before he had all of the facts (or really almost any of the facts) on this case was indeed highly prejudicial. The implications of that were not even the slightest bit subtle. As I said earlier, he appointed himself judge and jury and that's not something a good journalist would do.

I've already written about his letter to the editor. That was disgraceful. I have never in my life even heard of a journalist writing in to apologize for reporting on relevant facts in a case.

Well, fortunately, if Sabaijai is a journalist we might be seeing some more reasonable reports being aired about this case. Shame no foreign journalists stayed in Pai. We definitely don't need Drummond to be the point man on this one as he was in Kanchanaburi.

[DamianMavis]

how about:

2 foreigners, strangers, a face tattoo woman, with a criminal record and arrested for attacking police officers in the younger past (facts we know from herself) and a questional status as 'tourist' (not the typical 7 day tourist but long time here and different "boyfriends", no WP, an illegal profession anyway.) and her ex-boyfriend, a drug taking and to much alcohol drinking fan of aggressive music with dreadlooks and tattoos all over his body (facts we know when we see at the pictures) and a questional status as 'tourist' (brother in law said: he works in a tattoo shop. WP?) have a night out together, be very drunk. it's the days of nationwide mourning because kings sister died and she even painted here face red. we can take it as a fact that they disrespect the local culture deeply and not obey the unwritten law of social behavior. they are in company of the new 'boyfriend' of the woman, a local. all we seems to know about him is that he is an "artist". (who knows what that means, maybe just that he have no proper job and is not a pillar of the society) and he also had a problem with the police before.

the three met a local law enforcement officer (we know not much about him, local eyewitness can not be trusted, what his colleagues have done bad is no evidence against him).

now its unclear what happen, we know the results, but not how it come to that. for sure, there was a fight between them, both side talking about it. both side talking also that they were wrestling about the gun from the police officer.

so we don't know why and how the fight about the gun starts, there a lot of speculations. cut that speculations out and following the basic facts:

a local law enforcement officer met 3 civilian people,

two foreigners and one residents. one is a drug user and drunkard (was before seen walking and yelling with beer bottles in the hand on bright daylight on a public street), the other one is know for starting pub brawls with cops the third a local. somehow they start fighting about the cops gun. 3 shots where fired. 1 foreigner dead, the other wounded. having his weapon secure in his hand, the police man run away and seeking custody from his other law enforcement officers.

if the shots were accidently given or targeted with the intention to kill is just speculation. but the facts is only one person is dead, the otherone still alive and talkative and the third didn't catch a bullet at all. so if the police man is a 'killer', why he run away instead of finishing his job? only 3 bullets in his gun or had he just done what he should have done if he is out numbered and the situation gets or is out of control. move away and seek support?

it's all speculation.

pathetic little armchair detectives/judges we are.

pictures below can be viewed by everyone in the facebook profil of mr. del pinto. they are for public viewing

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564505599

you can have a view on his life, he listen to music by bands called 'suicidal tendencies' and 'death by stereo'. he draw a graffitti "clap your hand & say die" and posted this small gif on his profil. he is also interessted in buddhism and have some kind of daily Buddha Quotes and Teachings application. yesterdays quote have been "I spit on my life. "

there a lot more pictures, taken by his friends, and a lot of them involving drinking alcohol. taken by different persons on different occasions, so we have a continuance.

i think this pictures proves nothing but only that you can not draw black and white pictures.

and you can continue to write stories about how corrupt the thai police is, damian can tell us once more, that all local eye wittnesses are bribable and will lie like isaan hookers and in how much danger we face here in thailand and that the others must be blind if they don't hear or see all the bullets surround them. and that mr. drummond the only quality journalist. and you can call everybody who have second thoughts on your stories: the rose-coloured glasses thai apologist brigade.

and so on. but i will not really help to find out what happend in pai that night.

Ahhh I dont even know where to begin, holy crap! You judge him based on THE NAMES OF HIS FAVORITE ROCK BANDS?! Complete unintelligent judgemental foolishness! A picture of him smiling on the street with a beer is "seen walking and yelling with beer bottles in the hand on bright daylight on a public street" like he was doing something wrong?! Oh and the cop tried to kill 2 people, one was unconcsious on the ground and LOOKED dead, so he left her but she survived, I highly doubt Fuen stuck around to catch a bullet too.

Damian

[BarryMan]

how about:

2 foreigners, strangers, a face tattoo woman, with a criminal record and arrested for attacking police officers in the younger past (facts we know from herself) and a questional status as 'tourist' (not the typical 7 day tourist but long time here and different "boyfriends", no WP, an illegal profession anyway.) and her ex-boyfriend, a drug taking and to much alcohol drinking fan of aggressive music with dreadlooks and tattoos all over his body (facts we know when we see at the pictures) and a questional status as 'tourist' (brother in law said: he works in a tattoo shop. WP?) have a night out together, be very drunk. it's the days of nationwide mourning because kings sister died and she even painted here face red. we can take it as a fact that they disrespect the local culture deeply and not obey the unwritten law of social behavior. they are in company of the new 'boyfriend' of the woman, a local. all we seems to know about him is that he is an "artist". (who knows what that means, maybe just that he have no proper job and is not a pillar of the society) and he also had a problem with the police before.

the three met a local law enforcement officer (we know not much about him, local eyewitness can not be trusted, what his colleagues have done bad is no evidence against him).

now its unclear what happen, we know the results, but not how it come to that. for sure, there was a fight between them, both side talking about it. both side talking also that they were wrestling about the gun from the police officer.

so we don't know why and how the fight about the gun starts, there a lot of speculations. cut that speculations out and following the basic facts:

i think this pictures proves nothing but only that you can not draw black and white pictures.

Ahhh I dont even know where to begin, holy crap! You judge him based on THE NAMES OF HIS FAVORITE ROCK BANDS?! Complete unintelligent judgemental foolishness! A picture of him smiling on the street with a beer is "seen walking and yelling with beer bottles in the hand on bright daylight on a public street" like he was doing something wrong?! Oh and the cop tried to kill 2 people, one was unconcsious on the ground and LOOKED dead, so he left her but she survived, I highly doubt Fuen stuck around to catch a bullet too.

Damian

Well, a couple of good points raised by that poster but many more irrelevant ones. The type of music this guy listened to has no bearing on the case whatsoever; I have met many fans of the most obnoxious sounding death metal music you could imagine and they are all without fail some of the nicest people I have ever met. Guess they get their aggression out through this music, rather than punching someone in the head at a sporting event. The photos show a happy-go-lucky guy and I haven't read a single report to suggest that Del Pinto was anything but. He might well have been a drinker, even a heavy drinker, but nobody has come forward with accounts of him having been a bad tempered one.

Also, while Reisig's history of violence in Pai and her known incidents of alcohol-fuelled altercations in town (especially with police) are very relevant, I don't think her wearing facepaint on the date of the incident being a clear show of disrespect for the official mourning period of the King's sister is a fair critique at all. I don't think it's realistic to expect foreign tourists, even long-stay ones, to behave in the manner of Thai civil servants when it comes to something like that. Surely the local businesses in Pai would be quite happy that foreigners are not staying indoors out of a show of cultural respect. I also doubt that a foreign woman having more than one (if that was the case, I don't know) Thai boyfriend is anything unusual in a town like Pai, and locals there would not be so easily shocked. I have seen the like in many places with a large farang contingent, and it's often no different than a man having his own "holiday girlfriend" while he's out here.

I am certainly all for fairness in this case, but surely it must go both ways. I agree with you about the armchair speculation. Heck I'm guilty of that myself. We really don't know, but the answers are there to be found.

[kat]

but someone have to push his drama. now comes his "Safe passage to Canada sought for Thai witness of Pai killing" make up a story that resig and her thai boyfriend have to fear for their lives. so they family of del pinto in "a statement issued through their spokesman". mhm, sounds like the family holding press conferences or is it just andrew drummand making a telefon call with the fiance of del pinto sister and told him reisig is in danger and we need some gas for page one? for sure, there will be some sweep under the carpet by the police. but reisig in danger of life? and drummond the fearless journalist? nahh. that are stories that the veterans at some plaza places in bangkok telling the freshmen.

Andrew Drummond does not do some serious investigation in that case. it is rhinoceros journalism for mickey mouse newspapers and monkey readers.

i have no problem with that, he found his way to make a living. you just can not take it at face value.

you can not trust or believe the thai police, as well you can not trust or believe "the sun".

just for speculation, what kind of press this case would have given in the west, if some punk and a tramp get in fight with the police officer? is not so seldom that a delinquent teenager or tween getting killed in a police operation. guess only indymedia.org would make a fuzz about it and the mainstream media would not scare their readership with to side with some hooligan or drunken immigrant kids. no way. but if the same kid gets killed in thailand, okay we can put up some story to boost the national proud and solidarity and rant against an other country.

[member-flaming deleted]

And for the record, being a punk or tramp doesn't count as incontrovertible evidence, only your opinion.

And to answer your question about mainstream media and immigrant brushes with drunken or murderous police *in the West (New York)*, there were major cases in the mainstream press and the police are doing time.

Well, fortunately, if Sabaijai is a journalist we might be seeing some more reasonable reports being aired about this case. Shame no foreign journalists stayed in Pai. We definitely don't need Drummond to be the point man on this one as he was in Kanchanaburi.

I don't think you could be any more transparent - not that you weren't before, mind you.

*added

Edited January 15, 2008 by sabaijai

[canuckamuck]

The type of music this guy listened to has no bearing on the case whatsoever; I have met many fans of the most obnoxious sounding death metal music you could imagine and they are all without fail some of the nicest people I have ever met. Guess they get their aggression out through this music, rather than punching someone in the head at a sporting event.

BarryMan: you really need to do yourself a favor and put the brakes on your sweeping judgements in favor of you own personal spin. You bring up good points and then toss your credibility out the window with blanket statements. Believe it or not, some people who listen to same bands are very bad people.

"He may well have been a drinker"? Well every picture includes alchohol or a bar. Less spin more reality, and maybe some of these folks will hear you out.

You implied his Facebook page is not enough evidence to determine character, well thats all you need to say.

[Gary A]

Having followed this thread and having read many other accounts I'm glad they all mentioned names and places because without that information I would have certainly thought we were talking about a dozen totally different incidents. The only thing I know for sure is that there are lies, speculations and simply plain guesses as to what actually happened. I'd hate to be the judge that has to sort out what actually happened.

[Stephen Cleary]

The type of music this guy listened to has no bearing on the case whatsoever; I have met many fans of the most obnoxious sounding death metal music you could imagine and they are all without fail some of the nicest people I have ever met. Guess they get their aggression out through this music, rather than punching someone in the head at a sporting event.

BarryMan: you really need to do yourself a favor and put the brakes on your sweeping judgements in favor of you own personal spin. You bring up good points and then toss your credibility out the window with blanket statements. Believe it or not, some people who listen to same bands are very bad people.

"He may well have been a drinker"? Well every picture includes alchohol or a bar. Less spin more reality, and maybe some of these folks will hear you out.

You implied his Facebook page is not enough evidence to determine character, well thats all you need to say.

Unfortunately Canuck, this comment here of yours is also a sweeping judgement. Who cares if the guy liked death metal, tattoos and alcohol. Concerning the latter, there is a difference between a bit of a drunk and a violent drunk.

[A_Traveller]

... woman, with a criminal record ...

Anyone have a verifiable source for this? Quote taken from a post by permanent_disorder.

Regards

[canuckamuck]

The type of music this guy listened to has no bearing on the case whatsoever; I have met many fans of the most obnoxious sounding death metal music you could imagine and they are all without fail some of the nicest people I have ever met. Guess they get their aggression out through this music, rather than punching someone in the head at a sporting event.

BarryMan: you really need to do yourself a favor and put the brakes on your sweeping judgements in favor of you own personal spin. You bring up good points and then toss your credibility out the window with blanket statements. Believe it or not, some people who listen to same bands are very bad people.

"He may well have been a drinker"? Well every picture includes alchohol or a bar. Less spin more reality, and maybe some of these folks will hear you out.

You implied his Facebook page is not enough evidence to determine character, well thats all you need to say.

Unfortunately Canuck, this comment here of yours is also a sweeping judgement. Who cares if the guy liked death metal, tattoos and alcohol. Concerning the latter, there is a difference between a bit of a drunk and a violent drunk.

I thought you read for a living. Read what I said again, I was commenting on how Barry presented an argument using examples. I made no such judgements. Saying some one might be a drinker when his pictures exclusively contain alcohol is spin. We can see he enjoyed alchohol, we can not tell anything more.

[Danielle]

Sorry, zero sympathy and I won't apologise for that. Thailand or anywhere else in the world really does not need them.

Sorry moderators, if I'm not allowed to be here. I'm not an expatriot, and I don't live in Thailand.

I'm here because Leo Del Pinto was my cousin. I've been keeping up with this thread since it was 12 pages long, and I am pretty sure I have read every post in it excepting posts added today. Until this one, I have not felt the overwhelming need to reply.

Obviously, I know that anyone can say they are anyone, and no one has any reason to believe I am who I say I am. Not that it matters who I am, given the point I am going to try to make. It just puts it in a better context for people to know where it's coming from.

My question for yorkman here, or anyone with similar sentiments, is how can you possibly believe you can make the claim that Leo (or anyone, really) was not needed by anyone, anywhere? Human beings are social creatures. We need to be connected to people; we rely on those people, and we need those people to rely on us, to some extent. Everything we do revolves around the connections we have with others, in one way or another. How dare you presume that you have the authority or knowledge to be able to justifiably say that no one needed Leo? I can't speak for my family, I can't speak for other people who knew Leo but are unknown to me, I can only speak for myself. And speaking for myself, I say that I needed Leo. What do I mean by that? I mean my life is less rich without him in this world. I mean that, even though he was thousands of miles away and I wasn't seeing him regularly anyway, the knowledge that I will never see him again makes me aware that my life is less than it could have been, without him.

I'm not going to get into an argument about whose fault it was or what really happened. I'm not going to pretend to be able to provide reliable insight into what happened that night. The point is that it doesn't matter what happened that night, for what I have said to hold true. I don't care whether or not Leo contributed to the situation that arose. I'm not trying to throw blame. All I am saying is that if you believe you can honestly state that no one needed him, you are either delusional or unbelievably arrogant.

[kat]

Danielle, thank you for your post, and I'm so sorry for your loss.

[permanent_disorder]

After all your speculation lol the following is STILL fact. If you choose to call facts black & white then okay.

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

enough said

actually we know a little bit more facts.

1. it's 3 unarmed people vs. one with a gun (cop).

2. there is fight between them.

3. the fight is focused on getting control over the gun

4. 3 bullets got fired

5. fighting interrupts

6. gun owner (cop) does not shot at the third person / gun owner (cop) does not execute the second person

7. gun owner run away to go to the police*

*why he doesn't stay there? third person still unharmed. and could harm him. he doesn't know if he had knock off the others finally nor if they still could harm him. but still bullets in his gun he dosn't aim for a finishing shot - no he goes away and seeks backup by police

"enough said"

and that proves what? enough? sure? where is here your 'pathetic little man'

so it is just a case of darwins law.

look what follows later:

8. wounded female got a transport to the hospital, getting there medical help, is still alive (= nobody had tried to silenced or finishing her)

9. gun owner (cop) is on bail

9. canadian officials don't make a fuzz about (= there is nothing to make a fuzz about)

10. TV judge lovedablues speaks "enough said"

11. andrew drummond writes a book starring himself (not published yet)

12. brahmburgers writes a screenplay with the same title as andrew drummonds book but much more based on his own experience of reading stories on TV for 34 years and 8 month.

13. oliver clown produced the movie, mel stibson is the director, damianmavis play the main character marvis damon, a chevalier for a damsel in distress and a truther. the role is like a combination of the real live persons eric hufschmid and chuck norris.

[meadish_sweetball]

It is not required to be an expatriate to post on Thaivisa. Everyone who follows the rules is very welcome to participate.

Danielle, please accept my deepest condolences for your loss. Leo Del Pinto died way too young.

[kat]

2. there is fight between them.

3. the fight is focused on getting control over the gun

We DON'T know that.

[Galong]

*why he doesn't stay there? third person still unharmed. and could harm him. he doesn't know if he had knock off the others finally nor if they still could harm him. but still bullets in his gun he dosn't aim for a finishing shot - no he goes away and seeks backup by police

Did he run away and go straight to the police? Or is this an assumption that you consider to be a 'fact'? What was the time difference between the shooting and Uthai turning himself in?

"doesn't aim for a finishing shot"? Are you serious? A bullet in the chest IS a finishing shot! He seemed to have been shooting to kill. It's merely luck that the woman didn't die.

I don't see how most of your facts are actually credible.

Good thing you're not going to be on the jury.

[LoveDaBlues]

After all your speculation lol the following is STILL fact. If you choose to call facts black & white then okay.

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

enough said

actually we know a little bit more facts.

1. it's 3 unarmed people vs. one with a gun (cop).

2. there is fight between them.

3. the fight is focused on getting control over the gun

4. 3 bullets got fired

5. fighting interrupts

6. gun owner (cop) does not shot at the third person / gun owner (cop) does not execute the second person

7. gun owner run away to go to the police*

*why he doesn't stay there? third person still unharmed. and could harm him. he doesn't know if he had knock off the others finally nor if they still could harm him. but still bullets in his gun he dosn't aim for a finishing shot - no he goes away and seeks backup by police

"enough said"

and that proves what? enough? sure? where is here your 'pathetic little man'

so it is just a case of darwins law.

look what follows later:

8. wounded female got a transport to the hospital, getting there medical help, is still alive (= nobody had tried to silenced or finishing her)

9. gun owner (cop) is on bail

9. canadian officials don't make a fuzz about (= there is nothing to make a fuzz about)

10. TV judge lovedablues speaks "enough said"

11. andrew drummond writes a book starring himself (not published yet)

12. brahmburgers writes a screenplay with the same title as andrew drummonds book but much more based on his own experience of reading stories on TV for 34 years and 8 month.

13. oliver clown produced the movie, mel stibson is the director, damianmavis play the main character marvis damon, a chevalier for a damsel in distress and a truther. the role is like a combination of the real live persons eric hufschmid and chuck norris.

you should change your name to permanent_speculator....... YOU ARE STILL SPECULATING. I'm not sure you can comprehend the following definitions but I'll list them; maybe something will sink in.

speculate - To assume to be true without conclusive evidence

fact - an event known to have happened or something known to have existed

As things stand my previous post was correct; the following are the only facts:

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

Even if there is a trial I doubt that any more 'facts' will surface. If anything only a lot of confusion (good for the cop) caused by conflicting testimony.

still enough said

[canuckamuck]

Danielle:

There are no words I can use to assuage the sense of profound loss you must feel; the sense of injustice and incredulity in losing a friend and family member so young, so full of life.

The outrage you discern from our uncareful conversation masks an even greater rage at the unfairness I am sure we all share over your cousin's untimely passing. It is the greater question of mortality that gives this topic such great attention, something everyone must face in fear and trembling.

Thank you Danielle for bringing reality to our discussion. Please understand that on forums such as this one, many things are discussed by people completely removed and emotionally detached from the situations they debate. All aspects of the world we live in are unceremoniously paraded before us and we, myself included, frequently make comments that are wholly irresponsible and callous.

Our personalities and our compassion can be left at the gate. Here we argue unaccountably, fearless of conscience or reproach. And then we leave our keyboards and return to our diplomatic and social avatars, our mirage of decorum, correct speech, and respect.

I cannot, will not, attempt to justify or correct this discussion, or presume to speak for anyone but myself. I only wish to tell you that I am sorry I may have contributed to your grief in a time where compassion was the only correct response.

Out of the heart of a man doth his mouth speak, how much more so when accountability and humanity is discarded. We judge and condemn, riding high on a moral magic carpet; buffered from any truth or consequences.

We forget these random topics we discuss have real souls attached - real people with real pain and circumstances. You remind us here that they most certainly do.

My sincerest condolences to you and your family

[Stephen Cleary]

Danielle:

There are no words I can use to assuage the sense of profound loss you must feel; the sense of injustice and incredulity in losing a friend and family member so young, so full of life.

The outrage you discern from our uncareful conversation masks an even greater rage at the unfairness I am sure we all share over your cousin's untimely passing. It is the greater question of mortality that gives this topic such great attention, something everyone must face in fear and trembling.

Thank you Danielle for bringing reality to our discussion. Please understand that on forums such as this one, many things are discussed by people completely removed and emotionally detached from the situations they debate. All aspects of the world we live in are unceremoniously paraded before us and we, myself included, frequently make comments that are wholly irresponsible and callous.

Our personalities and our compassion can be left at the gate. Here we argue unaccountably, fearless of conscience or reproach. And then we leave our keyboards and return to our diplomatic and social avatars, our mirage of decorum, correct speech, and respect.

I cannot, will not, attempt to justify or correct this discussion, or presume to speak for anyone but myself. I only wish to tell you that I am sorry I may have contributed to your grief in a time where compassion was the only correct response.

Out of the heart of a man doth his mouth speak, how much more so when accountability and humanity is discarded. We judge and condemn, riding high on a moral magic carpet; buffered from any truth or consequences.

We forget these random topics we discuss have real souls attached - real people with real pain and circumstances. You remind us here that they most certainly do.

My sincerest condolences to you and your family

Absolutely.... my deepest condolences too.

This is not the first time that a relative of a deceased has found a terrible comment on these forums. Pls think before clicking 'add reply'.

[A_Traveller]

May I take this opportunity to thank canuckamuck for so eloquently stating his feelings to Danielle, which I wholeheartedly share, second, and commend.

Regards

[BarryMan]

Yes, absolutely, well said by Canuckamuck. I think he captured the sentiments of many of us who have been posting on this thread. We do post with a sense of detachment, and that can run away into cruelty as in the comment Danielle quoted.

Thank you Danielle for taking the time to bring a major reality check. It was greatly needed. You have my sincere condolences as well.

[permanent_disorder]

Ahhh I dont even know where to begin, holy crap! You judge him based on THE NAMES OF HIS FAVORITE ROCK BANDS?! Complete unintelligent judgemental foolishness! A picture of him smiling on the street with a beer is "seen walking and yelling with beer bottles in the hand on bright daylight on a public street" like he was doing something wrong?! Oh and the cop tried to kill 2 people, one was unconcsious on the ground and LOOKED dead, so he left her but she survived, I highly doubt Fuen stuck around to catch a bullet too.

Damian

no i don't judge him. i don't do it. read.

yep, crap. as is said it " it's all speculation. pathetic little armchair detectives/judges we are ... i think this pictures proves nothing."

but for you is that your hear from someone that some falang getting beating in front of the landmark hotel, because he didn't pay the bill of somebody else and the owner of that bar, not the beater, was a cop. that was years ago and all the other stories you heard somewhere bla bla, these stories are for you clear evidence that the police man in this case in a cold blooded killer.

exaggerated i just had try to be a mirror in front of you so that you can see it for yourself what you do here: "Complete unintelligent judgemental foolishness! "

same as your statement that reisig will not lie same as issan hookers, that all eye witnesses must be afraid to die if they say something, all the cases where you have been in danger in thailand and blabla. BS in a row.

anyway if there would be a jury a lawyer could tell them how certain music makes people bad. people tend to believe BS stories, they believe there are aliens on earth, they believe 9/11 organized by the mossad or cia, that there are hidden message on records telling kids to kill themself, they believe that computer games makes player kill real people, they believe the stereotyping BS on TVforum and they believe tah andrew drummonds article for the sun are well balanced super highlights of quality journalism. there are even few people out here believing your BS.

... and you can call everybody who have second thoughts on your stories: the rose-coloured glasses thai apologist brigade.

and so on. but i will not really help to find out what happend in pai that night.

Your entire post is speculation, except for the fact that we all know, which is that two people were shot and one is dead. The rest are your own non-factual judgments. And the drunk cop? Miraculously, we know even less about him than when the story broke. Big surprise.

yup, thats why i wrote on the ends of my paragraphs "it's all speculation. pathetic little armchair detectives/judges we are" and "i think this pictures proves nothing"

and we know nothing about it. we can NOT make a judgement in this case. we can NOT do it based on some facebook pictures. we can NOT do it based on reports about resiegs behaivior, and we can NOT do it based on a lot of stories how corrupt the thai police is. NO surprise.

and there is NO innocents

there is NO little white angel and her knight get gunned down buy a blood thirsty killer cop. and there is NO mob of disrespectful youth who had it deserved to be hunted down by a law enforcment officer.

there is NO reason to shout 'bloody murder' and there is NO reason to say 'so nam nah'.

NObody deserved to die that way. i feel sorry for the young man. i said it before, for me he doesn't look like a hooligan, let him smoke his ganja, makes people relax and not aggresive. but if you would like to do you could build a argument against him. based on little bit more as all the allegations against the cop.

i said also before i think that the cop regret his action and he will have bad dreams. there the pathetic little armchair detectives/judges jump on me. how can i dare to think of a cop as a human being.

i think is an terrible accident. and if the people involved would get a second chance, they would act different. alcohol, attitude and guns don't mix.

... woman, with a criminal record ...

Anyone have a verifiable source for this? Quote taken from a post by permanent_disorder.

Regards

actually not. but we know from reisig in her own words that she was involved in a pub brawl with her other boyfriend and an other tourist (isreali according to reisig)

as the police arrived to clear the situation, she punched a cop and she was drunk. additional sources have been telling us that she spend one night in the drunk tank. drug check went negative. then her and her other boyfriend was told to "leave the town" - somekind of informal unwritten law sentence. her boyfriend obey and never came back and she not.

we also know from her in her own words that she was involved in another fighting, this time with her new boyfriend somewhere an a market. okay, we know that this are her own statements and can believe it because they brought to us by a journalist who is really on her side. it was in a article in The Nation. (PAI HOOTINGS ANALYSIS Victim tells of earlier clash with police, Published on Jan 11, 2008)

2. there is fight between them.

3. the fight is focused on getting control over the gun

We DON'T know that.

i think thats the only thing we know or can believe that this is true, because both side have been talking about it.

reisig : "... and got his gun, and Leo tried to get it away from him. "They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun ..." (quoted from the nation article "SURVIVOR'S CLAIM Cop 'executed my best friend'")

Sgt-Major Uthai / Case investigator Pol Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya : "...Uthai pointed his service pistol to threaten away both foreigners, but del Pinto tried to snatch the pistol from him. After a scuffle, shots were fired and the couple went down." (quoted from same source)

this is the only exact match in the statements of both sides. a struggle/scuffle for the gun. that del pinto was grabing for the gun. that both men had their hands on the gun at the same time. this is all we know for sure. we don't know why they start to fight. we don't know how the shots have been fired.

we don't know if Uthai was ready to kill them and del pintos attempt to get the gun was the only offer he had to survive. but uthai didn't kill reisig and didn't kill her boyfriend. so maybe just hands up would have been a better solution?

i think is allways better to raise your hands up and disarm a gun pointing person just works in movie but end fatally in reality.

[Samuian]

@Danielle: what can I say...didn't know Leo, don't know you...really sorry for this great unexpected loss and senseless killing!

[permanent_disorder]

speculate - To assume to be true without conclusive evidence

fact - an event known to have happened or something known to have existed

As things stand my previous post was correct; the following are the only facts:

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

Even if there is a trial I doubt that any more 'facts' will surface. If anything only a lot of confusion (good for the cop) caused by conflicting testimony.

still enough said

FACT: a male civilian tried to take a gun away from a armed cop. 3 bullets getting discharged. male civilian wounded fatally. a 2nd person get a non lifethreatening wound

Did he run away and go straight to the police? Or is this an assumption that you consider to be a 'fact'? What was the time difference between the shooting and Uthai turning himself in?

"doesn't aim for a finishing shot"? Are you serious? A bullet in the chest IS a finishing shot! He seemed to have been shooting to kill. It's merely luck that the woman didn't die.

I don't see how most of your facts are actually credible.

Good thing you're not going to be on the jury.

the 'HE RUN AWAY' - SO HE IS GUILTY - HANG HIM HIGH. is for sure a complete chain of evidence. no doubt. not.

how about that he just could not act rational after there was a fight, he shoot two people, he is in stress, in shock, lost control. he is a human beeing and a cop and the worst thing he can imagine just happen. accidental shooting, two people down, bleeding.

because it was a shot in the chest that is a prove that it was a aimed shot? NO. No prove for that.

it just a possibility, a variation of many other ways what really happen in Pai.

we don't know it. we just can try to view from every angle. concern details, trifles and peanuts.

and still don't know what really happen.

with 'enough said' and ''pathetic little man'' comments, someone maybe can vent his anger but is not a way to come to a final conclusion.

[Artfullmover]

This has been a real interesting tread has it all. Take away the tragic loss of life what you have would be a smorgastboard of ideas to a movie script writter. But I fear the only movie director that would touch it would be quinten taratino.

Most of us know or have heard about how unfair the justice system can be in Thailand but we still love to go and stay there dont we. Who really knows who done or caused what? It seems both the lady victim and the thai boy friend have had some trouble on the recollection of events themselfs, which could and probally leads to the following......

Fred Flinstone in PAI.. ( Yaba Yaba do ). Well Ive had the displeasure of seeing it myself on a visit last year. I was astounded about how many "Midnight Runners". I came across in such an isolated sleepy place. Even the smell and offers of "wacky weed" was way above the norm. In fact the place seemed to be a have a mini "woodstock" theme. Now you have to ask yourself about the standard and professionalizm of the police based on that fact on that alone.

I say the "REAL THAI AUTHORITY's should conduct a few random drug tests around town. They just might find out a few more contributing facts to this tragety.

[meadish_sweetball]

There's been a fair bit of random drug testing in Pai. The present Mae Hong Son governor is reported to take the drug issue quite seriously.

It was reported earlier in the thread that Reisig and her previous boyfriend were drug tested and declared clean by the police after their quarrel in Bebop.

[DamianMavis]

Permanent Disorder: Im not going to get into everything just this which someone has already said: Carly was shot in the chest right beside her heart and then fell and lay still LIKE SHE WAS DEAD. She later came too AFTER. So saying the cop was nice by not trying to execute her is WRONG, anyone would have thought she WAS dead. I doubt Fuen was standing beside her, he probably ran for cover immediately like most people would.

Damian

[Galong]

I say the "REAL THAI AUTHORITY's should conduct a few random drug tests around town. They just might find out a few more contributing facts to this tragety.

If you're referring to wacky tobaccy... Alcohol is obviously one of the most dangerous drugs on the planet! How many families have been torn apart by alcoholism? How many drunk drivers have killed completely innocent people? Have you ever heard of a stoner beating up his/her family or driving like a lunatic? No, because pot doesn't affect the brain in the same way as alcohol... from what I've been told and read.

From the Liberty Post website:

In purely objective terms, beverage alcohol is a recreational hard drug: mind-numbing, easy to misuse and intimately connected with aggression, carelessness, and despair. When a drugged individual is involved in a violent crime or an accident, the drug is most often alcohol. In America, alcohol is responsible for 65 percent of murders, 55 percent of college rapes (that's 70,000 per year), 39 percent of traffic fatalities, 33 percent of all trauma injuries, 33 percent of drownings and other accidental deaths, and 25 percent of teen suicides. About 150,000 Americans die from chronic alcohol-related illnesses each year, and another 3,000 from accidental overdoses.

Random drug tests would only serve to fill the pockets of the authorities, it wouldn't curb crime if they're checking for pot. Other, harder drugs, are a different story. Random testing for alcohol would be much better in my opinion.

If you really want to stop this sort of violence, Ban Alcohol!!!

Ciao