Problem Students

[Murf]

Let me just say before i start, i have been teaching here for almost 2 years now, so i have a bit of expirience...

I have a few classes i dont like teaching, the lower end of the Mattayom scale 2/8 2/9 2/10 and also 5/7

The students in these classes i know do not want to learn English.

However much effort i put into the lessons, there is minimal feedback if any.

Of late, i have taken to writing on the black board and making them copy, gap fill... etc. Then going around and trying to get individual feedback with my red pen. I find this tiresome, and so do the students i think...

So... can you offer any advice on troublesome classes, the 'don't want to learn' types.

There is a big issue with discipline in these classes, i tried to nip it in the bud and be very strict, but that didnt work either, I have a Thai assistant who teaches the students at a seperate time to me, and he has no controll over them, so what chance do i have?

Any advice welcome

[kash]

Any advice welcome

teach subjects which they find interesting, thai songs, pop stars e.g. and translate scripts, names ... into english : )

[TEFLMike]

Any advice welcome

teach subjects which they find interesting, thai songs, pop stars e.g. and translate scripts, names ... into english : )

Try to get them to learn songs in English?

Something simple, not too 'pop' orientated. I find that they like to sing and many Thais have natural good vocal cords.

[toptuan]

I've been teaching for 5 years in Thailand, and started out teaching kids at your level, but in a vocational college (starts at age 15). I had a couple classes that are carbon copies of your situation. I tried several things:

1) I taught to the few (sometimes only 1 or 2) who really wanted to learn, and let the others do what they wanted as long as they didn't disrupt those who wanted to learn. Fortunately, the non-motivated learners were respectful of my wishes and didn't give us any trouble. I didn't go easy on the grading, either--giving everyone what they earned. This was a last-resort method when it seemed all other approaches failed.

2) I asked the students to teach me Thai, and slipped in English learning as part of the total package. It pulled in a few more students who would otherwise have been marginalized. They were eager to "teach the farang" something he didn't know. This approach turned the classroom into a "one-upsmanship" game between me and the students, and ultimately improved rapport with nearly the whole class. It gave them a new confidence I had never seen before, as I was willing to meet them on "their turf."

3) At least once a week, I pulled the students completely out of class, and we toured the campus or nearby commercial area. I had preplanned a tour, and had made up a vocabulary sheet with pictures of what we would see. While we walked and talked, we added new vocabulary to the students' arsenal, and they were asked to write the Thai and English under each picture. Throughout the tour we all used the words over and over. I followed up with quizzes (and ultimately a test) on the new words. Just getting the students out of the classroom see to work wonders. They became a more cohesive little group, and seemed to enjoy learning "in the field." Sometimes we just sat down on a grassy area and chatted, with the more motivated students helping the weaker ones to help carry the conversation along.

I highly recommend Ajarn.com and eslcafe.com for creative English-teaching ideas. You really have to pull out all the stops on creativity to try to motivate the non-motivated. You may still lose a lot, but you'll win a few. That makes it worth it, in my book.

Good luck, and give us an update down the road...

TT in Isaan

[BlackArtemis]

I had a friend who taught English and PE as well. He was teaching P-3 kids (8-10yrs old) so I don't know if this method would work with older kids. But he would trake out the distruptive students and make them link arms and run a few laps. The idea of, you disrupt together, you work together as a team. He only had to do this once or twice and the kids got the message.

[Murf]

No way i can pull them out of the classroom. They run a muck within the confines of the room, never mind outside. I would probably catch them smoking or maybe they would take off to the internet game shop!

The idea of teaching Thai is maybe worth a try, but the school dont like Farangs speaking Thai to the students, as this is what the Thai English teacher is for.

I will check out the sites you've given (again) and see if i can come up with something to keep their interest for more than 5 minutes. Teaching song lyrics might be a idea

Thanks.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Murf

[Thaiboxer]

Whatever you try, don't make the same mistake I did and invest too much energy in them. Either they'll learn or they won't...it's their future, not yours, so don't go hard on yourself. Keeping those who aren't interested in English from disrupting those who are should be the biggest challenge. The rest should be easy. Good luck!

[Scott]

You have and probably will get lots of good ideas. Try to find the ones that 'fit' best for you. Also, don't get discouraged, try to remember you might lose the battle, but it's the war you want to win. Some classes are much more difficult than others, for all kinds of reasons. All you can really do, is try to keep your morale good, keep teaching them and don't let them think that learning is optional.

A lot of students learn at different paces. At some point some of what you've taught will have sunk in. A little fun talk at the beginning or end (I prefer the end) of class can help. Things like what's your favorite football team, player, singer etc.. can help.

Best of luck to you and try not to get discouraged.

[BlackArtemis]

For some of my own kids, I explained to them that knowing English would be able to get there a better job, they could work in many English speaking countries and make more money a month than most make in a year. I teacher 3rd grade, so this was an easy way to motivate them. I also use the ones who don't pay attention or are disruptive in role plays. I have 3 good students role play as a doctor/lawyer etc etc and the "naughty" kid role plays a street vendor selling somtom. This has gotten through to quite a few kids, uses English in the role play and even brings the kid's causing the disruption into the learning. For a bonus, it is really funny to watch

[PeaceBlondie]

I still hear from the English teacher who replaced me, and from his Thai colleague who teaches geography. They both say they have at least one class full of incorrigibles. The English guy just teaches drunk; the Thai teacher beats the students. It's hopeless. Hopeless. Do what you can, but expect to have very limited success.

My lady friend who tutors non-Thai students from international schools has the best gig. No serious behavior problems, no class size larger than 3, they pay on time, and they pay well! She is now teaching 32 hours per week, with a waiting list of prospective students!

[twschw]

I teach M1 and I have several classes similar to yours. My 1/10 is just horrible. The students aren't just disinterested they are delinquents. One student called me an Isat (not sure of the spelling). It was behind my back as I walked away so I didn't know who had said it. It is not just the boys but the girls also. One waved her hand to "dismiss" me because I was interupting her chat time with another student and she very nearly hit my nose. She acted as if she had every right to do this. I have tried everything I can think of to try to get through to these students but nothing works.

I am imagining takng these students out of the classroom and I am scared to death, as a group they could destroy Bangkok in an afternoon. Face it, there are some classes that just cannot be handled.

Edited January 10, 2008 by twschw

[leanester]

I am teaching all M. 5 from 5/1 to 5/17, I have to admit that some classes (specially 5/4, 5/5, 5/6 and 5/2) are really tough to teach. The method I use and that's been working so far is explain the lesson, make them participate (for example, if the topic is the holidays, ask them which things do they think about when they think about halloween, this, at least in my case, produces the first feed back of the class and makes at least half of the class to get interested) then give them some questions to practice about the topic, and let them work in groups...you just pick one student who will be the representative of that group. When u see the group working, give them a mark, so when they get 3 marks, u give them one point. This works for me in every class (even the bad classes, except rooms 5 and 4, because they are sport classes and we seldom have class) because most of them are afraid to the marks...and if it doesnt work at first, after mid term show them a 0 or a low mark and they will start to get interested for sure...and with the rest (the sabai sabai students, who dont care about anything) just ignore them cuz u are losing ur time....

I hope this can help u, take care...

[BlackArtemis]

If you can move the kids as you please, shove all the problem kids off to one area and make a deal as suggested. minimum noise level for those who want to learn. Don't become too upset, not everyone can get into one of the top three schools and then study/work abroad, someone has to be the red truck drivers and clean the road ways...

[Ijustwannateach]

Some classes of Thai students are indeed very damaged by their past learning "experiences," teachers, family troubles, poverty, and other problems. It doesn't help that most schools segregate the worst students into one class. When you teach that class, set modest, achievable goals- even if they're very, very small- and help the small group of students interested in learning a bit to achieve those goals. If you're lucky, you'll interest the others in participating, too.

"S"

[toptuan]

It's hopeless. Hopeless. Do what you can, but expect to have very limited success.

IMHO a very jaded response from a poster whose greater majority of teaching posts (in the last year or so) cast doom and gloom over the whole educational landscape of Thailand.

I have taught here for five years, from 2nd graders through university students, and I would echo the opposite: Hopeful, hopeful. Do your best and you will be richly rewarded when you find where students are, and lead them onwards from that point.

While it is true that a student must be willing to learn for a teacher to teach, in my opinion 80% of that equation depends on the teacher. You CAN turn around non-motivated students (not all, of course) with the right amount of creativity, energy, firmness and loving them to death.

If teaching is just a "gig" to support you while you enjoy greater pleasures/priorities of a b/f, g/f, learning a new culture, Asian travel, escaping your old life, a stop on your 'round-the-world tour, etc., then yes, go back and read the negative posts to reinforce probably what will really happen to you in the classroom. Teaching is not just a job: it's a life-style and mind-set which consumes all your waking hours. OP, I see you as someone who really cares that you're not getting through to some of your students. It's more than just a "job" to you. Be encouraged that your concerned attitude is what's needed to fuel the necessary innovation that will define you as a future successful teacher.

I find little difference in teaching Thais than teaching anywhere else in western or Asian societies. I speak from a total of 37 years teaching experience spread over Asia and North America, from tots to grandparents. The myth that "Thais can't/won't learn" is an easy escapism from doing your best as a teacher.

Good luck, and report back!

Edited January 11, 2008 by toptuan

[Ijustwannateach]

TT, there are two problems here. First, I believe you are interpreting PB according to an incorrect context and have been unfair in your comments. He is not speaking of teaching ALL Thai students as "hopeless." He is speaking of teaching "that class," the generic broken class (to which the OP refers at his school) full of the damaged rejected students which inevitably are dumped together in one class as the "bad students" in so many public high schools. Perhaps if you are not a teacher in a Thai public high school you will not be aware of this system. Students are ranked each year by GPA; the highest 40-50 students go into class "!" for the next year, the second highest 40-50 into class "2," and so forth. When you get to class "10" the effects are predictable, and though you can set small goals and achieve limited success, in regard to teaching whatever the official curriculum is the situation truly is hopeless. I'm sure that if PB were in a situation to repeat the attempt, he would do his best and achieve as much as any of the rest of us academically, and probably achieve even more with his great personal warmth in bolstering the class's self-esteem. I do not see how PB can be characterized as negative towards the persons who are his students in general.

Secondly, you have decided to make some general issue of your opinion of PB in this thread, which is off-topic, inappropriate, and frankly, mistaken. Most of the negative comments which PB and I frequently make in regard to teaching in Thailand come in the form of criticism of widely incompetent, corrupt, and abusive administrative (mal)practices, and we make these without apology. While others are free to disagree with us, they rarely do so. PB (and I, and many others) at various times have put up with schools that demanded we work illegally; lies about working hours, holidays, and other professional expectations; colleagues both Thai and foreign who varied from insane to incompetent to criminal; and the legacy of a language teaching system that simply doesn't function properly for the majority of the population including most of the Thai teachers of that language. As a result of the apathy and/or incompetence of Thai immigration in preventing known criminals from entry, never mind illegal employment, we legal teachers have been saddled with greater and greater stigma, suspicion, and paperwork- none of which would have helped to catch any of the big names in the news. And now we're going to have to take "culture courses" and learn the names of the component parts of Thai musical instruments so we can be considered "qualified" to teach English! Thailand's foreign teaching industry has also been perverted by the presence of tourists and retirees, and this hurts those of us who are seeking genuine careers or those who like PB seek to teach rather than to babysit. There are very big problems with teaching in Thailand and I wouldn't recommend it to most people.

The topic of this thread is "Problem Students." Please do not continue to drag in unquoted baggage into this one- the first issue I raise (PB's comment applies to certain broken classes, not to all Thai students) is still open for discussion on this thread; the second one (PB's supposed negativity according to you) is not. If you find you disagree with something in another thread, please comment on it there.

"S"

[PeaceBlondie]

I shall try to limit my response to less than 300 words, and to the topic.

I was referring to the problem classes, the typical /8 or /11 class of lowest IQ's and lowest achievers, which the opening post mentioned. I apologize for overstatement. By 'hopeless' I meant the classes which my colleagues (who have taught Thais for 6 and 18 years, respectively), bemoan as hopeless. I have never taught drunk or beaten my students, as they do, but I have taught those classes and had very low expectations that I would teach them much more than "I am picking up this chair; I am walking around the classroom," even if they were matayom 6 students about to graduate. I recall the week I co-taught most of the Matayom 6 students with the Director's wife; some of those classes gave no reason to hope that 10% of the 18 year olds were ready for graduation. I entertained them, I spoke good English to them, I walked all the way to the back, I gave them the chalk and they put something on the board. So let me retract my use of 'hopeless' a bit. Essentially hopeless, virtually without realistic expectations of ever mastering low intermediate English after six years of classes. However, they were the worst of the lot, at large govt. schools which were actually a few cuts above average in their student body selection.

Give them your best; try your hardest. I used to sweat through one shirt and two undershirts every day, and I never stopped simply because the work was very difficult. But if they had assigned me primarily those least-achieving students, I would have served out my term and not gone back.

[Ijustwannateach]

Perhaps some posters haven't noticed, but here in the Teaching forum we tend to be a little bit stricter about staying on topic and addressing the topic rather than the poster's personality. Other sections of Thaivisa may not be so strict; that's not really our concern.

We WILL stay on topic on this thread. That's my last reminder.

"S"

[twschw]

I would still like some advice on how to control my M1/10. I will admit that I am an inexperienced teacher but we all have to start somewhere. Im my short time, relatively speaking, in Thailand I have taught students from P1 to M4 and have enjoyed it until now. I dread going to this class. The students have a habit of just walking out of the class whenever they feel like it but most of the time is spent calling me names and pointing and laughing. They really are mean-spirited kids. I know I am not the OP and I don't mean to hijack this thread but I really need some constructive ideas.

[BlackArtemis]

I would still like some advice on how to control my M1/10. I will admit that I am an inexperienced teacher but we all have to start somewhere. Im my short time, relatively speaking, in Thailand I have taught students from P1 to M4 and have enjoyed it until now. I dread going to this class. The students have a habit of just walking out of the class whenever they feel like it but most of the time is spent calling me names and pointing and laughing. They really are mean-spirited kids. I know I am not the OP and I don't mean to hijack this thread but I really need some constructive ideas.

One of the things you should not do is react, I know some teachers who blow up at the kids and now it has turned into a game. They are not afraid of the Farang, because they won't hit them like a Thai teacher would. Ignore the "I sutt, I heeah" etc etc. You can turn the tables on them and make them come up in front of the class and speak English.

Translating songs is a good one, even some of their favorite groups like Thaitanium sing in English, so if they learn that they might be happy.

I deal with younger kids, so they are easier to control. My wife works in Anubaan 2 so sometimes I drag a 3rd grader or two into her classroom and make them join her for an hour. I tell them if they act like anubaan students they can go back. Though calling on the trouble makers and making them try to answer usually does the trick.

[PeaceBlondie]

M1 is a new school, new peer groups, the time of raging hormones, and if M1/10 is typical of the bottom group, they know no English at all.

I'm often wrong, but 12 and 13 year olds are the group with which I have the most experience, and they're still my favorites. I'm often mistaken, but I suggest that you allow no use of mobile phones in any of your classes. Put a symbol on the board that means "no mobile." Confiscate temporarily any mobile that is used, and return it at the end of that class. Be strict, but be fair. Talk to your boss, repeatedly, to let her know you have problems. Ask her advice, and follow it, and report your success or failure back to her. When she says "I don't know" or "I don't care" or nothing, she is letting you get away with whatever discipline her boss lets the Thai teachers get away with. Discipline as much and as little as you need to, and be consistent. Don't ever think some snotty nosed 12 year old is more important in the educational system than a teacher is. You can tell them flatly, "You are nakrian. I am ajarn. I teach, you obey, you show respect." The best dressing down I ever did of my M1/1 class was when I told them they were bad Thais and bad Buddhists! The home room teachers told them much worse in Thai!

[Murf]

Thanks for the advice... Only 6 more weeks of teaching the little rascals, before i don't have to see them again!

But maybe next years lot will be worse

[No beleeeeve!]

Allow me to incorporate a few tips from here and add a couple. I happened to work at a top level private Catholic school for two semesters and this is what I learned (other than it was a living hel_l).

1) Lower your expectations. Assume no one wants to learn English and if you get a couple that do...voila...victory!

2) Don't assume that if you just try harder, you will convert the kids to love English...you won't. Many kids already know going in they have absolutely no desire to learn English and their parents will not push it.

3) Know that many parents do not care if their kids learn English, only that they take the class so they can boast to other parents of this. Plus, the parents do NOT want their children working hard.

4) I made the kids do the same wai ritual before class that they did for the Thai teachers. You have to command respect, they will not give it. Yes, the kids hated this but it is because they don't think they have to respect foreigners. If you get respect, that is a victory. They may not like you much, but they will listen more to people they respect a little.

5) I used Thai to get their attention and for simple commands, mostly to redirect their disruptive behavior. It worked. Shows them you know the language and they will all know what is being said. Plus, I would give instructions in English and then in Thai (I was scolded for speaking too much Thai in class but it was the only method that worked).

6) I often gave them work and had them do it together in groups of 2-3, but not larger.

7) I had a semester long project where they developed a comic book. If they completed the days assignment they got to spend the last 10-20 minutes of class working on this.

First they developed the characters biographies, a good guy, bad guy, girlfriend etc. You will have to do a lot of prompting though...give many examples and walk them through it. Then I had them write a story involving the characters. Again, a lot of prompting and examples are needed. Don't give them blank paper and just explain it. You will have to give an example of each and every step.

Next, I took a blank piece of paper and drew shapes resembling a comic book page without the art for them to fill out...a template. They would draw the characters and the word balloons to bring their story to life. Each class, I made a new blank template for them to draw on.

The comic was used as a reward each class for kids who did their work. Most loved it. They handed it in at the end of each so they didn't get lost. You can go over the stories in class every now and then, they loved sharing them with the class. Get creative. Maybe you can make one as they do. Make yours very silly and they will love it. I even hole punched them (the comic, not the kids) and they cut some yarn to bind the new pages each week.

Good luck!!!!

[BlackArtemis]

Wow, I really like that comic idea, I would like to incorporate that into my class and they are well behaved.

[Lodestone]

One thing that's important is both consistency in terms of what behavior you'll allow and following through with any disciplinary action, i.e. never back down. Get into a routine. For example, first for stuff they shouldn't have out: At the beginning of class, after attendance has been taken (if that's done), walk down every row of desks telling the students to put away their mobile phones, MP3 players, comic books, toys, school work for other classes, etc. This is the one fair warning which they all get at the beginning. Maybe a couple minutes later a last warning for any stragglers. After that and throughout the rest of the class period, you catch any student with any of the above objects out, you calmly walk over and put your hand out until he (or she) gives it to you. Never back down on this and never try to grab the item or wrestle it from the student. Just stick out your hand until he places it in it. Let the whole class come to a halt as everyone turns to watch the drama. Collect all the confiscated objects on your front table/desk. If they're particularly valuable, you might want to put them in your pocket or book bag for safe keeping. Depending on how far you want to take it, either return the items at the end of class or make the students come to the teacher's room at the end of the day to reclaim them.

Second, for disruptive behavior, e.g. fighting with other students, repeatedly getting out of their desks to visit their friends, banging on their desks or making other loud noises, general acts of disrespect towards you beyond the paragraph above, and so on, call them to the front of the class and make them stand before it (in front but off to the side so they don't get in the way of your teaching). Get their student ID, roster number, or name, and write it on the board as part of a 'naughty list.' Make clear that those that get on the list are subject to losing points from their grade. Keep them standing there until they've had enough and display some indication of contrition. Five minutes or so often seems enough, except in those cases where they continue to laugh and joke with their friends as they stand there. Those stay standing longer until they get the message. Some variations to consider (which I haven't had to try) is have them face the wall instead of the class, or for repeat offenders, instead of standing have them get on their knees and be in a wai the whole time. And certainly for future classes have them sit in the front and away from their friends which will lessen to a degree the incentive for more bad behavior.

Oh, yeah. Reward the good students with stickers. Or candy.