Translation

[Desertexile]

Hi Gents

Is this translation correct? This tranlation says saint but I though Saint was Nak Boon?

Cheers

Saint Christopher Protect us = เซ็นต์คริสโตเฟอร์คุ้มครองพวกเรา

[meadish_sweetball]

เซ็นต์ is a rendering of 'Saint' in Thai script, not a translation of what the word saint means - for that you need นักบุญ.

However, I think 'Saint' can be seen as a 'title' that is not to be translated, or as an integral part of the name, and this is why it is transliterated rather than translated.

The alternative, นักบุญคริสโตเฟอร์ sounds strange to me. But I am out on deep waters because I rarely discuss Christianity with Thais.

Since the English is meant as a plea for protection rather than a statement of a fact, I think it needs a จง or something similar before คุ้มครอง.

[Desertexile]

เซ็นต์ is a rendering of 'Saint' in Thai script, not a translation of what the word saint means - for that you need นักบุญ.

However, I think 'Saint' can be seen as a 'title' that is not to be translated, or as an integral part of the name, and this is why it is transliterated rather than translated.

The alternative, นักบุญคริสโตเฟอร์ sounds strange to me. But I am out on deep waters because I rarely discuss Christianity with Thais.

Since the English is meant as a plea for protection rather than a statement of a fact, I think it needs a จง or something similar before คุ้มครอง.

Thanks a lot - I cant read Thai but can do ok speaking and the 'Saint' and 'Nak Boon' part confused me. I agree regards 'jong' and so does the Thai guy I asked......... plea rather statement.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer, mucho appreciated. I really must learn to read and write. Thanks again

Does everyone else agree with this translation? No doubting you mate but just double checking!

Edited January 8, 2008 by Desertexile

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, double checking is necessary - my Thai is by no means perfect and it's not a familiar area to me. I just tried to answer to the best of my ability.

I am certain it can be improved and I know there will be both Thai speaking farang and some educated native Thai speakers along to read this thread, and hope they can help by giving us their opinion.

[siamesekitty]

uh oh. Not a topic I talk about in my daily life either I don't have a lot of Christian Thai friends, and haven't had anyone try to convert me lately, but I'll give it a try.

I agree with meadish, think maybe a ขอ (ask for) in front of the whole thing would be nice. So then it would be ขอให้เซ็นต์คริสโตเฟอร์จงคุ้มครองพวกเรา

As for the saint vs นักบุญ part, when I think of นักบุญ I visualize a real live human being. So that really wouldn't fit with the whole idea of a saint looking after you, unless he was a bodyguard or something

Edited January 8, 2008 by siamesekitty

[Desertexile]

uh oh. Not a topic I talk about in my daily life either I don't have a lot of Christian Thai friends, and haven't had anyone try to convert me lately, but I'll give it a try.

I agree with meadish, think maybe a ขอ (ask for) in front of the whole thing would be nice. So then it would be ขอให้เซ็นต์คริสโตเฟอร์จงคุ้มครองพวกเรา

As for the saint vs นักบุญ part, when I think of นักบุญ I visualize a real live human being. So that really wouldn't fit with the whole idea of a saint looking after you, unless he was a bodyguard or something

It's an interesting sentence, isn't it.

Thanks to both of you.

Where are the kids on the bikes in white shirt and black ties when you need'em.

[soundman]

As for the saint vs นักบุญ part, when I think of นักบุญ I visualize a real live human being. So that really wouldn't fit with the whole idea of a saint looking after you, unless he was a bodyguard or something

I am not sure of the saint thing, however, after discussion with those surrounding me, นักบุญ, is generally reserved for a person who has allready departed this world after a life of merit making and good deeds.

Arriving at points like this is always hard for me, because I have one Thai person telling me one thing, and another telling me a different thing, in addition to in-concise dictionaries which I rarely consult anyway because I am a very lazy person.

SK - when you visualise - do you visualise a photo or likeness or a real person?

Cheers,

Soundman.

[siamesekitty]

ok, maybe not a real LIVE person per se, but a more "tangible" being rather than the saint "spirit" that I believe is supposed to be คุ้มครอง-ing folks

[soundman]

ok, maybe not a real LIVE person per se, but a more "tangible" being rather than the saint "spirit" that I believe is supposed to be คุ้มครอง-ing folks

Well this is where it becomes "similar" because when I think about a saint, I am not thinking about a "spirit" but an "image" of a real person - dead or not.

Cheers.

[mangkorn]

Maybe it's just me, but employing Thai language and script to describe some purely European, Roman Catholic concept seems totally incongruous. What's the point of it, really?

I mean no disrespect: I just don't get it. Thai people wouldn't ever say that. (Even evangelical Christians don't believe in those saints. Thai Catholics are pretty few and far between...)

Or, is it just for a tattoo?

Edited January 8, 2008 by mangkorn

[Desertexile]

As for the saint vs นักบุญ part, when I think of นักบุญ I visualize a real live human being. So that really wouldn't fit with the whole idea of a saint looking after you, unless he was a bodyguard or something

I am not sure of the saint thing, however, after discussion with those surrounding me, นักบุญ, is generally reserved for a person who has allready departed this world after a life of merit making and good deeds.

Arriving at points like this is always hard for me, because I have one Thai person telling me one thing, and another telling me a different thing, in addition to in-concise dictionaries which I rarely consult anyway because I am a very lazy person.

SK - when you visualise - do you visualise a photo or likeness or a real person?

Cheers,

Soundman.

Hi

I dont know how to post an image but imagaine a St Christopher medallion - you see St. Christopher in the mddle and written around the sides 'Saint Christopher protect us'

Google image search

Saint christopher

Cheers

[Desertexile]

Maybe it's just me, but employing Thai language and script to describe some purely European, Roman Catholic concept seems totally incongruous. What's the point of it, really?

I mean no disrespect: I just don't get it. Thai people wouldn't ever say that. (Even evangelical Christians don't believe in those saints. Thai Catholics are pretty few and far between...)

Or, is it just for a tattoo?

So by that same reckoning, we can only translate statements which are very Thai? Seems strange - how in that case, could you translate western literature?

I believe in these saints.

No, if was a Tattoo, I'd have Mangkorn Desertexile tattooed on me and all the connotations that involves

[Rikker]

Mangkorn, I think you may be dismissing the topic hastily.

I was under the impression that there are more Catholics in Thailand than any other Christian sect, at least in part because their missionaries arrived here some 300 years before the first protestants (1500s vs. 1800s). So they've had more time to grow by births as well as conversions. Admittedly I have limited experience (I've been to a Thai Catholic service a couple of times out of curiosity and respect for the Thai friend who invited me), but it struck me that in practice Catholicism in Thailand is not so far from Buddhism in many ways, you just change the images worshipped (crucifix and images of the saints instead of Buddha and monks), and the prayers said (it was fascinating to hear the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary in Thai, I'm familiar enough in English to have recognized them).

Catholic presence in Thailand is limited but particularly visible, due to the relative prestige of a few well-known Catholic schools (St. Gabriel's, Assumption, etc.), and there's even a whole Catholic neighborhood off of Sam Sen Rd. near the Sang Hi bridge (as well as many Catholic villages throughout the country). The Catholics have an official shrine in Mukdaharn province that I've been to, and seven Thai nuns were beatified in 1989, nearly five decades after they were murdered by Thai police in 1940, a time of intense nationalistic fervor, for refusing to deny their faith.

In the recent movie รักแห่งสยาม (The Love of Siam), a family of Catholics (father, mother, sister, brother) who are all central characters are shown praying together before their evening meal (I think it goes something like "เดชะพระนาม พระบิดา พระบุตร และพระจิต อาเมน"), among other Catholic moments throughout the film (including a Christmas pageant).

When a new concept enters a language, new words are created to describe those things. They may be borrowed, they may be invented. Certainly it's not fruitless to discuss capitalism, or evolution, or the combustion engine. Look at the vocabulary of Buddhism--it's vocabulary is borrowed from Pali, the traditional sacred language of that religion. And seeing as Catholics have been in the country for going on 500 years, there is every reason to believe that the community of Catholics in Thailand (even though it is a few hundred thousand people at most) has a well developed mini-language (what we might term a sociolect) to describe their experiences and beliefs. And they do. It's not necessarily going to be intelligible to the average Thai, but I doubt the OP is looking to take the phrase "Saint Christopher protect us" to market an automobile or describe a plate of Thai food or something similarly unsuited. So lacking an actual bona fide Thai Catholic (anyone willing to confess?--no pun intended), the discussion seems justified to me.

Again, I'm not Catholic, but I think it's fascinating to learn about the language that Thai Catholics use nonetheless. For good measure, I've Googled the Hail Mary in Thai (known as the วันทามารีอา) to share for fun:

วันทามารีอา เปี่ยมด้วยพระหรรษทาน

พระเจ้าสถิตกับท่าน ผู้มีบุญกว่าหญิงใดๆ

และพระเยซูโอรสของท่าน

ทรงบุญนักหนา สันตะมารีอา มารดาพระเจ้า

โปรดประทานพรให้พวกเราคนบาป ตราบนี้และเมื่อจะตาย อาเมน

And based on this model, I allow me to suggest this new translation for the OP:

เซนต์คริสโตเฟอร์โปรดคุ้มครองเรา

Saint Christopher prood khum-khrong rao

I think this is nice and simple (though you might alternately add ขอ at the beginning), and it follows the exact patterns of language used by Thais when requesting the protection of "sacred things" (สิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ์โปรดคุ้มครองเราทุกคน) and the recently departed Princess Kalyani (ขอพระองค์โปรดคุ้มครองเราปวงชนชาวไทย), and even Allah (ขออัลลอฮฺโปรดคุ้มครองเรา). I pasted those three examples directly from Thai web boards.

We're not all nearly so different as you might think.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Rikker

[meadish_sweetball]

Another ace post. Thank you very much Rikker.

[Johpa]

I would guess, and only a guess not being of the Catholic persuasion, that the Thais would use and simply transliterate the word "Saint" and not use "nak bun". And as far as the religious sense of a saint "protecting" someone, Thais often use the metaphor of "providing shade" to infer such a sense of providing protection.

[Rikker]

In my experience they use both, but I think when they use เซ็นต์ (which is often, if not more frequently, spelled เซนต์, but pronounced the same as เซ็นต์) they use it like Meadish suggested:

However, I think 'Saint' can be seen as a 'title' that is not to be translated, or as an integral part of the name, and this is why it is transliterated rather than translated.

It might also be a matter of convention that varies depending on the specific saint, too.

If you Google นักบุญเปโตร "Saint Peter" you get ~3000 hits, เซนต์เปโตร gets ~500 hits, and เซ็นต์เปโตร gets 0 hits.

If you Google นักบุญกาเบรียล "Saint Gabriel" you get 3 hits, เซนต์กาเบรียล gets ~200 hits, and เซ็นต์กาเบรียล gets 17 hits.

If you Google นักบุญมัทธิว "Saint Matthew" you get ~1000 hits, เซนต์มัทธิว gets 4 hits, and เซ็นต์มัทธิว gets 0 hits.

(I'm getting these spellings of the names from the bible in Thai.) So for Peter and Matthew, นักบุญX is more common, but for Gabriel, เซนต์กาเบรียล is more common, almost certainly because that's the name of a Catholic school in Bangkok (colloquially pronounced เซ็นกะเบียน).

[Desertexile]

Mangkorn, I think you may be dismissing the topic hastily.

I was under the impression that there are more Catholics in Thailand than any other Christian sect, at least in part because their missionaries arrived here some 300 years before the first protestants (1500s vs. 1800s). So they've had more time to grow by births as well as conversions. Admittedly I have limited experience (I've been to a Thai Catholic service a couple of times out of curiosity and respect for the Thai friend who invited me), but it struck me that in practice Catholicism in Thailand is not so far from Buddhism in many ways, you just change the images worshipped (crucifix and images of the saints instead of Buddha and monks), and the prayers said (it was fascinating to hear the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary in Thai, I'm familiar enough in English to have recognized them).

Catholic presence in Thailand is limited but particularly visible, due to the relative prestige of a few well-known Catholic schools (St. Gabriel's, Assumption, etc.), and there's even a whole Catholic neighborhood off of Sam Sen Rd. near the Sang Hi bridge (as well as many Catholic villages throughout the country). The Catholics have an official shrine in Mukdaharn province that I've been to, and seven Thai nuns were beatified in 1989, nearly five decades after they were murdered by Thai police in 1940, a time of intense nationalistic fervor, for refusing to deny their faith.

In the recent movie รักแห่งสยาม (The Love of Siam), a family of Catholics (father, mother, sister, brother) who are all central characters are shown praying together before their evening meal (I think it goes something like "เดชะพระนาม พระบิดา พระบุตร และพระจิต อาเมน"), among other Catholic moments throughout the film (including a Christmas pageant).

When a new concept enters a language, new words are created to describe those things. They may be borrowed, they may be invented. Certainly it's not fruitless to discuss capitalism, or evolution, or the combustion engine. Look at the vocabulary of Buddhism--it's vocabulary is borrowed from Pali, the traditional sacred language of that religion. And seeing as Catholics have been in the country for going on 500 years, there is every reason to believe that the community of Catholics in Thailand (even though it is a few hundred thousand people at most) has a well developed mini-language (what we might term a sociolect) to describe their experiences and beliefs. And they do. It's not necessarily going to be intelligible to the average Thai, but I doubt the OP is looking to take the phrase "Saint Christopher protect us" to market an automobile or describe a plate of Thai food or something similarly unsuited. So lacking an actual bona fide Thai Catholic (anyone willing to confess?--no pun intended), the discussion seems justified to me.

Again, I'm not Catholic, but I think it's fascinating to learn about the language that Thai Catholics use nonetheless. For good measure, I've Googled the Hail Mary in Thai (known as the วันทามารีอา) to share for fun:

วันทามารีอา เปี่ยมด้วยพระหรรษทาน

พระเจ้าสถิตกับท่าน ผู้มีบุญกว่าหญิงใดๆ

และพระเยซูโอรสของท่าน

ทรงบุญนักหนา สันตะมารีอา มารดาพระเจ้า

โปรดประทานพรให้พวกเราคนบาป ตราบนี้และเมื่อจะตาย อาเมน

And based on this model, I allow me to suggest this new translation for the OP:

เซนต์คริสโตเฟอร์โปรดคุ้มครองเรา

Saint Christopher prood khum-khrong rao

I think this is nice and simple (though you might alternately add ขอ at the beginning), and it follows the exact patterns of language used by Thais when requesting the protection of "sacred things" (สิ่งศักดิ์สิทธิ์โปรดคุ้มครองเราทุกคน) and the recently departed Princess Kalyani (ขอพระองค์โปรดคุ้มครองเราปวงชนชาวไทย), and even Allah (ขออัลลอฮฺโปรดคุ้มครองเรา). I pasted those three examples directly from Thai web boards.

We're not all nearly so different as you might think.

Excellent post, thank you for taking the time.

DE