From The Independent On Sunday 13/01/08

[splorff]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3326545.ece

[londonthai]

2 years ago

discussion

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=163551

[RIZLA+]

so wha if i was 2 years ago it was Published: 13 January

[Naam]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

[billd766]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

I am a Brit married to a Thai lady and we have a 3 year old son.

I read the report from the Independent yesterday and to be absolutely honest I am no more concerned that I was before I read it.

However if I were to read the BBC news as I do most days and look at all the Brits murdered every day IN THE UK and I had to live in the UK I would certainly be worried.

Many years ago around the middle 90's I used to live in a small village at Cowplain in Hampshire and my UK wife at the time would not leave the house after 8.30 pm without the dog as she was scared what might happen to her.

Back in 2001 when I was staying with a friend near Taunton in Somerset I was unhappy going around that town at 5 pm because of the drunks.

In the UK even small kids are being murdered and it is getting to the stage where you dare not let children go anywhere without being with a trusted adult.

In Thailand there are a lot of areas that I would not go to at night in Bangkok but up here in the central region I am happy to go anywhere night or day.

Even my UK wife felt safer in Thailand and I certainly do.

[ade100]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

I doubt the Germans are any safer. I would imagine that, as Thais are mostly unable to distinguish between the different European countries, Brits are not being singled out. I don't have the stats but have read much about attacks on Caucasions of all different nationalities on Phuket.

[splorff]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

I am a Brit married to a Thai lady and we have a 3 year old son.

I read the report from the Independent yesterday and to be absolutely honest I am no more concerned that I was before I read it.

However if I were to read the BBC news as I do most days and look at all the Brits murdered every day IN THE UK and I had to live in the UK I would certainly be worried.

Many years ago around the middle 90's I used to live in a small village at Cowplain in Hampshire and my UK wife at the time would not leave the house after 8.30 pm without the dog as she was scared what might happen to her.

Back in 2001 when I was staying with a friend near Taunton in Somerset I was unhappy going around that town at 5 pm because of the drunks.

In the UK even small kids are being murdered and it is getting to the stage where you dare not let children go anywhere without being with a trusted adult.

In Thailand there are a lot of areas that I would not go to at night in Bangkok but up here in the central region I am happy to go anywhere night or day.

Even my UK wife felt safer in Thailand and I certainly do.

I feel safe in LOS because I have never seen any violence. Just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not happen. Yes it is much worse in the UK, I agree. I think thats because the UK imposes short jail terms even for serious offences. In Thailand they impose harsh sentences, which seems to work as there is less violent crime. Where there is violent crime though, it seems to be quite serious.

The report says that 17 brits have been killed since 2003 in Phuket. Another thread says 17 Swedes have been killed recently. It is worrying for such a smallish place.

What concerns me most of all is that the Brits, like most Eurpoeans do not understand the Thai's. They drink, get loud, shout and get stroppy about nothing. These are serious social taboos in LOS as they incur loss of face for others. Europeans do not understand how dangerous this can be.

I would like to know more about these deaths. I am guessing that they were all men, that they had all been drinking, and that they all got gobby with a Thai man, and were then killed by Thai's. I could be wrong of course.

What a pity that an etiquette guide is not available for Europeans in LOS, together with an explantation of likely consequences for breaches of etiquette

[geriatrickid]

Thailand: Pop. 63million in 512,000sq. km vs UK's 60million in 242,000 sq. km

Significantly higher murder rate in Thailand vs the UK.

Majority of murders in Thailand are attributable to firearms. Whereas the UK has a negligible amount. I don't think one needs to be a Braniac to realize that the difference is due in part to the fact that the UK has gun control and Thailand does not.

And now on to the article. Know what I picked out? The convenient sanitization of the facts. The lady was one of Isan's finest employed as a "security guard" when he met her or so the article claims. However, The Daily Mail reported, "A Thai court heard how Mr Charnaud, .....fell in love with 35-year-old Laoruang, whom he met in a Bangkok bar while on holiday. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

The paper also prints 2 pictures; One of a rather unattractive pudgy 40ish male and another of an equally unattractive female.

One thing I have picked up from TV stories is that the murders always seem to involve older males taking up with ladies they meet in a bar. Perhaps the adage caveat emptor applies?

Or one could go to the Daily Telegraph story http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml...03/bfthai03.xml

which discusses the reasons why so many men get caught up in these sad situations. (I really like how it started off with "Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court."

Personally, I'm getting a bit nervous now that I'm getting older, don't have a g/f, have a growing gut and am losing my hair. I hope I do not succumb to the disease of stupidis falangosis. Fortunately, I am blessed with some Thai friends that have told me that if I catch it, they will intervene by sending emails to my family telling them to send a dose of common sense as I have become mentally unfit. They also advise that they would be administering strong kicks to my fat posterior and smacks upside my head to try and jump start the remaining brain cells that hadn't yet been pickled by one too many gin & tonics.

Edited January 15, 2008 by geriatrickid

[Prakanong]

"I would like to know more about these deaths. I am guessing that they were all men, that they had all been drinking, and that they all got gobby with a Thai man, and were then killed by Thai's. I could be wrong of course."

I do not think the 17 deaths are in Phuket alone but in Thailand as a whole.

Of course the deaths were not all men but the majority were. Katherine horton raped and murdered in Samui, Kirsty Jones raped and murdered in CM plus the girl of th Kanchanaburi two.

I doubt very much all 17 were killed because they were drunk and gobby - far from it I bet the minority were in that situation.

[Prakanong]

"Personally, I'm getting a bit nervous now that I'm getting older, don't have a g/f, have a growing gut and am losing my hair. I hope I do not succumb to the disease of stupidis falangosis."

Depends if the disease is chronic or just a quick dose

I often get the 24 hour version but hope I am immunised to the chronic version.

Now I have said that I will get it next week when up there on business for "Tempting the Gods"

[mikethevigoman]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

I am a Brit married to a Thai lady and we have a 3 year old son.

I read the report from the Independent yesterday and to be absolutely honest I am no more concerned that I was before I read it.

However if I were to read the BBC news as I do most days and look at all the Brits murdered every day IN THE UK and I had to live in the UK I would certainly be worried.

Many years ago around the middle 90's I used to live in a small village at Cowplain in Hampshire and my UK wife at the time would not leave the house after 8.30 pm without the dog as she was scared what might happen to her.

Back in 2001 when I was staying with a friend near Taunton in Somerset I was unhappy going around that town at 5 pm because of the drunks.

In the UK even small kids are being murdered and it is getting to the stage where you dare not let children go anywhere without being with a trusted adult.

In Thailand there are a lot of areas that I would not go to at night in Bangkok but up here in the central region I am happy to go anywhere night or day.

Even my UK wife felt safer in Thailand and I certainly do.

I feel safe in LOS because I have never seen any violence. Just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not happen. Yes it is much worse in the UK, I agree. I think thats because the UK imposes short jail terms even for serious offences. In Thailand they impose harsh sentences, which seems to work as there is less violent crime. Where there is violent crime though, it seems to be quite serious.

The report says that 17 brits have been killed since 2003 in Phuket. Another thread says 17 Swedes have been killed recently. It is worrying for such a smallish place.

What concerns me most of all is that the Brits, like most Eurpoeans do not understand the Thai's. They drink, get loud, shout and get stroppy about nothing. These are serious social taboos in LOS as they incur loss of face for others. Europeans do not understand how dangerous this can be.

I would like to know more about these deaths. I am guessing that they were all men, that they had all been drinking, and that they all got gobby with a Thai man, and were then killed by Thai's. I could be wrong of course.

What a pity that an etiquette guide is not available for Europeans in LOS, together with an explantation of likely consequences for breaches of etiquette

No wonder the aussies call US whinging poms

[taxexile]

that telegraph article in full.

Beware the Oriental fantasy

Last Updated: 12:01am BST 03/08/2006

Many Westerners holiday in South-East Asia and return home with a spouse. Will Jory tells of his own traumatic experience

Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court.

Among the accused is his ex-wife, Pannada Laoruang, whom Charnaud met - yes - in a Bangkok bar, having sold his £2.5 million estate in Wiltshire to go travelling. The couple married in 1997 and lived for a time with his parents in England. When this didn't pan out, they returned to Thailand, where Charnaud bought two bars in the resort of Hua Hin.

They had a son, Daniel, but Pannada's gambling habit and £50,000 debts drove them apart and the couple divorced, with Charnaud gaining custody of the boy.

Toby Charnaud was murdered, presumably for his money, after being lured to Pannada's remote border village to see his son, who had been visiting his mother.

There, he was greeted by five men who, it is alleged, clubbed, shot and hacked him to death. His corpse was then burnt and the remains strewn across the jungly countryside.

It is a uniquely horrible story. Yet the impetus that drove Toby Charnaud to give up his life in England and risk his happiness in the arms of a Thai good-time girl is not unique.

Many Western men take inordinate gambles with young South-East Asian women, the kind of gambles they would never consider at home.

Why? Obviously, there is a physical attraction. For many Western men, the slender, petite, ever-youthful figures of Eastern women can be seriously alluring. Then there is a cultural aspect: Thai women have a grace, a femininity and a deferential sexiness that many women in the West appear to have forsaken.

The attraction of female submissiveness might be reprehensible, but it is none the less real. Who doesn't like having their clothes washed, their meals cooked and their brow smoothed by a soft and loving hand?

Yes, I know the temptation well. For something not entirely dissimilar happened to me, another thirtysomething Englishman, a few years ago.

I was holidaying on the Thai island of Koh Samui and in a noisy bar I met Sunee. She was pretty, 25 and great fun - one of those seductive Eastern women who inhabit the blurred moral zone between party animal and prostitute.

And I fell for her. It was more than a holiday romance and, when the time drew near for me to leave, there were tears from her and regrets from me.

Two dizzy weeks after we met, I had to fly home. I kissed Sunee, said goodbye and heard very little more for nearly half a year.

Then, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from her. "I have something to tell you. I am five months' pregnant." My head swam.

What should I do? My friends were divided. Some told me that I should forget about the woman. How did I know she wasn't scamming, fishing for money? Others advised me that I had to do the right thing. I had to ascertain if this baby was mine.

Four months later, that is what I did. I flew to Bangkok. Sunee and I had arranged to meet in my hotel. When she knocked on the door, she was carrying the tiny newborn.

Then she started crying. I hugged her, wordlessly, because I didn't know what to say. I didn't feel great passion for Sunee any more, yet I wanted to do the right thing. Whatever that was.

Then I cradled the baby. It was shattering. I hadn't expected the overwhelming emotions, the conflicting sensations that flooded me. I was 38, childless and single. Now, here was this perfect, vulnerable thing in my hands. My son, maybe.

Somehow, I got a grip. Before I had flown to Bangkok, I had established the best method of DNA-testing a baby. This, it turned out, was the "buccal swab" method.

You sweep a cotton bud across the inner cheek of the child's mouth, gathering cells. Putting the baby on my lap, I got out the cotton buds.

As I did, Sunee looked at me sorrowfully, perhaps contemptuously. It wasn't hard to sense what she was thinking. "How can you do this? How can you not trust me?"

I steeled myself and scraped the cotton buds, and sealed them in an envelope, which was then dispatched to a genetic-testing company in Britain.

Then I waited. And waited. I spent days sitting by my Bangkok hotel swimming pool, fretting. Half of me wanted this adorable child to be mine. Yet I had to find out the truth.

In the end, I couldn't help myself. Before I got the DNA test results, I went to see Sunee and the baby one more time. I had resolved not to do this because I was scared of the unmanageable emotion, that upwelling of paternal love.

It was a long drive across Bangkok to her tiny flat. There, I sat with Sunee and the child. We chatted and sipped tea, and I helped her feed the baby.

As I did, I started marvelling at the boy. Weren't those my eyes? Surely that was my nose, my mouth, even my Yorkshire complexion? Why did I need to do a test when I could see with my own eyes: this was my son.

I very nearly cracked. Back at the hotel, I decided to cancel the DNA tests and accept the child as mine. But when I picked up the phone, a small voice inside me said: "No, this is wrong. You will always have doubts if you don't find out now."

I put the phone down. The following day, the results came through. "We are 100 per cent sure the alleged father, Will Jory, is not the true father of this child." The boy wasn't mine.

My first reaction was anger - at Sunee, at life, at myself. I refused to see Sunee or the baby before I left. When she rang in tears, I rang off. On my return to London, the anger slowly abated.

It dawned on me that Sunee had convinced herself that I was the father because she so desperately wanted me to be the father.

The timing was right, she had my e-mail address, we had sort of fallen in love. And she was a single and frightened young mother, without any options. I understood.

But even when the anger had gone, the melancholy remained. I felt like someone had given me a son and then snatched him away. I was aware that my feelings were irrational, but that was no help. I was bereft.

Over time, however, these feelings mellowed. Two years have passed and now I think very differently.

As I see it, much of what happened was my own fault. After all, it was me who fell for Sunee so hard that I stupidly dispensed with the usual precautions when we had sex.

But why did I do that? What is it about young, seemingly vulnerable Thai women that makes so many Englishmen take such absurd risks?

For as poor Charnaud and I discovered, their submissiveness can come at a cost.

Thai women often see their older, wealthier white partners as saviours in all situations, such as pregnancy or gambling debts. And when the saviour fails, the reckoning can be painful.

For many, the Oriental fantasy should remain precisely that.

Edited January 15, 2008 by taxexile

[mikethevigoman]

Thailand: Pop. 63million in 512,000sq. km vs UK's 60million in 242,000 sq. km

Significantly higher murder rate in Thailand vs the UK.

Majority of murders in Thailand are attributable to firearms. Whereas the UK has a negligible amount. I don't think one needs to be a Braniac to realize that the difference is due in part to the fact that the UK has gun control and Thailand does not.

And now on to the article. Know what I picked out? The convenient sanitization of the facts. The lady was one of Isan's finest employed as a "security guard" when he met her or so the article claims. However, The Daily Mail reported, "A Thai court heard how Mr Charnaud, .....fell in love with 35-year-old Laoruang, whom he met in a Bangkok bar while on holiday. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1811

The paper also prints 2 pictures; One of a rather unattractive pudgy 40ish male and another of an equally unattractive female.

One thing I have picked up from TV stories is that the murders always seem to involve older males taking up with ladies they meet in a bar. Perhaps the adage caveat emptor applies?

Or one could go to the Daily Telegraph story http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml...03/bfthai03.xml

which discusses the reasons why so many men get caught up in these sad situations. (I really like how it started off with "Regular visitors to Thailand will know the sight well: a wealthy, older Englishman arm in arm with the attractive Bangkok bar girl for whom he has fallen. Unfortunately, for 41-year-old, Marlborough-educated Toby Charnaud, his Oriental fantasy ended in bloody murder, according to reports now emerging from a Thai court."

Personally, I'm getting a bit nervous now that I'm getting older, don't have a g/f, have a growing gut and am losing my hair. I hope I do not succumb to the disease of stupidis falangosis. Fortunately, I am blessed with some Thai friends that have told me that if I catch it, they will intervene by sending emails to my family telling them to send a dose of common sense as I have become mentally unfit. They also advise that they would be administering strong kicks to my fat posterior and smacks upside my head to try and jump start the remaining brain cells that hadn't yet been pickled by one too many gin & tonics.

"One thing I have picked up from TV stories is that the murders always seem to involve older males taking up with ladies they meet in a bar. Perhaps the adage caveat emptor applies?" This is so true, but try telling them ?

[huggybear]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

As a 70's pimp in polyester I usually feel safest here when there are no cops around

[moro1]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

I am a Brit married to a Thai lady and we have a 3 year old son.

I read the report from the Independent yesterday and to be absolutely honest I am no more concerned that I was before I read it.

However if I were to read the BBC news as I do most days and look at all the Brits murdered every day IN THE UK and I had to live in the UK I would certainly be worried.

Many years ago around the middle 90's I used to live in a small village at Cowplain in Hampshire and my UK wife at the time would not leave the house after 8.30 pm without the dog as she was scared what might happen to her.

Back in 2001 when I was staying with a friend near Taunton in Somerset I was unhappy going around that town at 5 pm because of the drunks.

In the UK even small kids are being murdered and it is getting to the stage where you dare not let children go anywhere without being with a trusted adult.

In Thailand there are a lot of areas that I would not go to at night in Bangkok but up here in the central region I am happy to go anywhere night or day.

Even my UK wife felt safer in Thailand and I certainly do.

I feel safe in LOS because I have never seen any violence. Just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not happen. Yes it is much worse in the UK, I agree. I think thats because the UK imposes short jail terms even for serious offences. In Thailand they impose harsh sentences, which seems to work as there is less violent crime. Where there is violent crime though, it seems to be quite serious.

The report says that 17 brits have been killed since 2003 in Phuket. Another thread says 17 Swedes have been killed recently. It is worrying for such a smallish place.

What concerns me most of all is that the Brits, like most Eurpoeans do not understand the Thai's. They drink, get loud, shout and get stroppy about nothing. These are serious social taboos in LOS as they incur loss of face for others. Europeans do not understand how dangerous this can be.

I would like to know more about these deaths. I am guessing that they were all men, that they had all been drinking, and that they all got gobby with a Thai man, and were then killed by Thai's. I could be wrong of course.

What a pity that an etiquette guide is not available for Europeans in LOS, together with an explantation of likely consequences for breaches of etiquette

No wonder the aussies call US whinging poms

There are

[moro1]

as i'm not a Brit i feel quite safe

I am a Brit married to a Thai lady and we have a 3 year old son.

I read the report from the Independent yesterday and to be absolutely honest I am no more concerned that I was before I read it.

However if I were to read the BBC news as I do most days and look at all the Brits murdered every day IN THE UK and I had to live in the UK I would certainly be worried.

Many years ago around the middle 90's I used to live in a small village at Cowplain in Hampshire and my UK wife at the time would not leave the house after 8.30 pm without the dog as she was scared what might happen to her.

Back in 2001 when I was staying with a friend near Taunton in Somerset I was unhappy going around that town at 5 pm because of the drunks.

In the UK even small kids are being murdered and it is getting to the stage where you dare not let children go anywhere without being with a trusted adult.

In Thailand there are a lot of areas that I would not go to at night in Bangkok but up here in the central region I am happy to go anywhere night or day.

Even my UK wife felt safer in Thailand and I certainly do.

I feel safe in LOS because I have never seen any violence. Just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not happen. Yes it is much worse in the UK, I agree. I think thats because the UK imposes short jail terms even for serious offences. In Thailand they impose harsh sentences, which seems to work as there is less violent crime. Where there is violent crime though, it seems to be quite serious.

The report says that 17 brits have been killed since 2003 in Phuket. Another thread says 17 Swedes have been killed recently. It is worrying for such a smallish place.

What concerns me most of all is that the Brits, like most Eurpoeans do not understand the Thai's. They drink, get loud, shout and get stroppy about nothing. These are serious social taboos in LOS as they incur loss of face for others. Europeans do not understand how dangerous this can be.

I would like to know more about these deaths. I am guessing that they were all men, that they had all been drinking, and that they all got gobby with a Thai man, and were then killed by Thai's. I could be wrong of course.

What a pity that an etiquette guide is not available for Europeans in LOS, together with an explantation of likely consequences for breaches of etiquette

No wonder the aussies call US whinging poms

There are two stories on phuketwan.com that dispel this nonsense. The stats for a start are spurious. Factual stats would probably illustrate that there's no need for concern on the part of Brits, or anyone else.

The 17 Swedes all died of natural causes, motorcycle accidents or drownings, not crime. What is true is that Pattaya may be bad for your health, and that's clearly where people who are not exactly preferred tourists go, so the crime rate is higher among them than in the general population.

The high rate among Swedes is just a statistical blip. The story on phuketwan.com about Brits explains the fear factor that makes people think there are crime waves going on when it's just a media beatup.