How Dodgy Is My Candidate?

[Ijustwannateach]

That's the second time this month that newbies have told me to read a newbie book (which I have already - about 10 years ago)!

What part of "he volunteered" is unclear? In fact, he insisted- but I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, here. I would hope it's fairly clear from my messages that on most occasions, *I* pay- without making a big deal of it.

People who laughably believe reading the tourist books (Culture Shock, Lonely Planet) make them authorities on Thailand and think the rules are all set in stone would probably be surprised when they see:

1. Thais touching children affectionately on the head

2. Thai friends kicking each other in a joking fashion

3. "Lower" status people actually treating someone to dinner in a "higher status" role (hey, did you think that high status people pay for their own birthday parties?)

4. Do you think that when groups of young Thais get together only ONE of them pays ANY money at a given gathering? Granted, if one of them is really rich or flush he might- but people chip in like they do anywhere!

Lonely Planet, my big behind!

This guy and I actually have humorous conflicts of cultural sensitivity once in a while- I went out with him and a student friend to dinner, and the friend tried to pay for a share of the dinner and I didn't let him, and my "candidate" kept trying to assure me it was all right to let the guy pay! I didn't!

I highly doubt that the dating phase of my relationship with this guy ended because I let him insist on buying me dinner.

Incidentally, just last night I got a call from Mr. Candidate, back from Viet Nam... he's mentioned that he's now living alone (not sure if Mr. Spanish is out of the picture altogether or not) and that I'm welcome over at his place anytime... He's a good friend.

Back to the books, Bill!

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Yes, I'm almost to the point now where I know when and how I can touch a student on the head during class. And Steven doesn't simply want to teach without learning; I believe he wants to be left alone on the legal BS so that he can just go ahead and do the teaching/learning thing.

My long term Thai boyfriend said during a recent meal, "Honey, is there anything I'm doing wrong, that you'd like me to correct?" I had no idea that Thais said such things (fear of losing face, etc) but they do, when you've got enough of a relationship.

Sometimes my b/f insists on paying. At first I thought maybe he was just showing off - that he has the funds to occasionally buy our meals - but he wasn't.

Kicking each other as part of play - I see a lot of that among the male teens at school.

[jdinasia]

Wow Steven! there you go again! But nice that instead of being an ###### to all the Thai's that you have a new group to pick on.!.!.!

Granted William doesn't seem to have spent much time with Thai's here but if I were to judge your posts by what you say about Thai's I'd think you haven't gotten all that far from Silom yourself.

But you are the GOD of all knowledge about gay things in Thailand ... (obviously teaching in thailand too) and all people that have a different experience are of course newbies.

[Ijustwannateach]

Time to edit my ignore list! I have my own personal newbie stalker!

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

Hi Steven,

Please allow me to comment that you seem to have taught

Your Candidate western ways without you having learned Thai

Social mores.

I can appreciate your wanting a Thai potential B/F to be an equal Partner – by paying his share sometimes.

But that is just not the way things work in Thailand.

So I am thinking you may have “lost” your Candidate for lack of understanding on your part. He has obviously learnt more about your western ways than you have about his – otherwise you will never allow him to buy you Dinner.

I suggest you read “Status & Obligation” in the Lonely Planet guide book in the Chapter “Facts about Thailand” (Page 57 in my edition).

You need to appreciate the “phuu yai / phuu nawy”  relationships.

In Thai Society you have an obligation to sponsor your candidate which according to what you wrote – you have failed to do.

It would also seem that your candidate has subsequently failed in his side of the “bargain” in showing “kreng jai” towards you  - I would suggest because of your imposing your western criteria for the relationship …

Your Handle “Ijustwannateach” (notlearn?) seems to sum it all !!

I would be very interested in your (and others) reactions to this concept.

Bill

WilliamV

Please expand on the contents of the articles you quote. I would like to learn more about what was said without buying Lonely Planet.

I think that information would help me to understand better my relationship of three years with a Thai, who still mystifyies me in many ways, particulary in the money arena.

I am well aware from prior relationships and readings about "money in relationships" that it is an area that is rarely trouble free between two people in a relationship, so your input would be appreciated.

[PeaceBlondie]

Regarding the money in relationships being a problem. I have a friend who's been gradually increasing his support to his Thai boyfriend. I pointed out to him this weekend that he now pays twice the boyfriend's salary to him. So I asked, "If we were back home, and a gay friend of yours made $3,000 per month but his boyfriend paid him an additional $6,000 per month, how would that affect their relationship?"

[jdinasia]

Geeze ... since my Thai has more spendable income than me does that mean I can ask for an "allowance"?

and Steven .. you cast a lot of labels around .. maybe you should look at that :-)

[Ijustwannateach]

^Well, now that you mention it, jd- you're beginning to catch on. If/when a richer/older Thai appears to be trying hard to do you favors, it is often a sign that he/she wants to develop a patron-client relationship with you. To maintain this kind of relationship as a client, you may be expected to do some sorts of favors for the patron at some point. As a "poorer" partner in your relationship, by Thai standards you'd be perfectly justified in asking for financial help/support to the extent that your partner could provide it [unlike, say, certain Scandinavians who maintain separate bank accounts all their lives and only go together on vacations to where BOTH partners can afford to go on their own salaries]. Of course, if your Thai partner is "westernized," he may be more comfortable relating to you in the ways considered normal in your home country. I would say you're lucky if this is the case in your relationship.

I think this is where a lot of the "trolling" aspect of topics about the financial support of Thai partners, male or female, get its steam. As (quite often) the financially better-off, older, higher status partner in relationships here, foreigners are called on to become patrons- which DOES demand financial obligations of them- but which is to be distinguished from "paying for sex." This distinction is much harder for "western" minds to make, especially if they're trying to wind someone up. Sometimes, it also seems that the Thai clients of foreign patrons forget this distinction, too....

As to throwing labels around, jd, I refer you to your 2nd-to-last message where you called me ###### (whatever that was) and the "God" of gay knowledge in Thailand. People in glass houses, etc., etc.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

You be funny!

[WilliamIV]

Hi Steven,

Please allow me to comment that you seem to have taught

Your Candidate western ways without you having learned Thai

Social mores.

I can appreciate your wanting a Thai potential B/F to be an equal Partner – by paying his share sometimes.

But that is just not the way things work in Thailand.

So I am thinking you may have “lost” your Candidate for lack of understanding on your part. He has obviously learnt more about your western ways than you have about his – otherwise you will never allow him to buy you Dinner.

I suggest you read “Status & Obligation” in the Lonely Planet guide book in the Chapter “Facts about Thailand” (Page 57 in my edition).

You need to appreciate the “phuu yai / phuu nawy”  relationships.

In Thai Society you have an obligation to sponsor your candidate which according to what you wrote – you have failed to do.

It would also seem that your candidate has subsequently failed in his side of the “bargain” in showing “kreng jai” towards you  - I would suggest because of your imposing your western criteria for the relationship …

Your Handle “Ijustwannateach” (notlearn?) seems to sum it all !!

I would be very interested in your (and others) reactions to this concept.

Bill

WilliamV

Please expand on the contents of the articles you quote. I would like to learn more about what was said without buying Lonely Planet.

I think that information would help me to understand better my relationship of three years with a Thai, who still mystifyies me in many ways, particulary in the money arena.

I am well aware from prior relationships and readings about "money in relationships" that it is an area that is rarely trouble free between two people in a relationship, so your input would be appreciated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi

I am glad that the Lonely Planet quotes prompted discussion.

Sorry PTE - I am a one finger typist - you can stand and read

that para in any Asia Bookshop!!!

But I am amazed at the apparent arrogant assertion by people

that they are convinced that they DO know what their Thai friends

are REALLY thinking !!!! - Hahaha

Bill

[Ijustwannateach]

Then imagine how amazed I was in your original post by your apparent feeling that YOU knew what MY partner was thinking!

I don't buy the "inscrutable exotic Oriental" BS that has people saying we don't know what our Asian partners are thinking- that's the next door neighbor to "they all look alike." Yes, it's hard to know what anyone else is thinking- that's one of the basic human problems- but with time and experience, I think that most people in a functioning relationship here can know what their partners are thinking as well as in any other couple.

"Steven"

[WilliamIV]

Reminder - The Topic is headed:

How Dodgy Is My Candidate?, Please Give Me Your Honest Advice.

But your Handle - Ijustwannateach - tells it ALL

[Ijustwannateach]

If you wanna discuss, discuss. Obviously I don't know my "candidate" well enough to be in what I describe as a "functioning relationship" with him, which is why I ask for advice- but your silly potshots don't contribute any more than your newbie books.

"Steven"

[orchis]

Well IJWT I hope you continue your friendship with him.

[Ijustwannateach]

Will do, Orchis... I think he could be a good friend, even if he might be a dodgy candidate.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

It's been quite some time since I updated this thread, so why not now?

Time does reveal all, and it has revealed a considerable amount since my last post here. My candidate has been away on at least 2 more international trips (which, however, seem respectable- one to visit a family member [a real one, I've seen the pics] in Korea and another was a scholarship trip to Viet Nam]).

I thought my conversation with him after the Korean trip was priceless:

HIM: And I met a nice Korean guy there who says he might visit me in Thailand.

ME: Oh, so he's interested in you, is he?

HIM: Well, he's not gay. But we went out a lot. And sometimes he took me to gay bars because he knew I was gay and he said he didn't mind.

ME: Really? Does he know you have a boyfriend?

HIM: No, I didn't tell him. And he gave me a CD player and he says he wants to buy some of my art.

ME: Oh, really.

HIM: Yes, and once or twice we went to the Korean saunas. They were really nice.

ME: Well, actually, it sounds like he's a gay man.

HIM: Maybe you're right.

He has gradually, little by little, told me more of his personal life, revealing in the process that in fact- as he finally admitted- he is quite the "butterfly."

However, at the same time over the last year or so he has become more vain, more self-centered, and more of draining person to be around. I have actually avoided him a bit, and he ruined a couple of recent meetings by suddently having another date or appointment to go to in the middle of our meeting. I warned him that if he expected to meet me again he had better actually want to meet me. Haven't heard from him since, and that's fine with me.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Now that my former candidate is no longer a candidate but a friend, he is relaxing a lot in terms of details about his private life, and I truly am amazed in some ways. He's not at all the "nice boy" he previously pretended to be- he's a proper party animal! [but now he's in love, apparently].

Anyway, to crossover for a moment with my Ex- thread about O., I have also been telling him what happened with O. recently. His reaction:

"You see, I told you! You don't know Thai people. We lie! You cannot know when people are telling you the truth. I tell you the truth, because I am your friend. But a lot of Thai people are like this [like O.] and you cannot believe them."

From the horse's mouth!

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Good point, Steven: truth-telling in Thailand, even between native Thais, is not what we were led to practice in the West. Saving face is much more important than telling the truth. Mai bpen rai is much more important than trying to resolve a problem, so they lie and say, "No problem; nobody screwed up" when the opposite is quite obvious.

So, why should they be even more truthful to strangers or foreigners? Speaking the truth might require 257 more words of English to explain, and even then we might not understand, and we wouldn't solve the problem.

I think in personal relationships in Thailand, we need to be very selective in what we ask. Such as, we limit ourselves to one probing question per day, maximum. And when we've asked the question, don't be surprised if we get no response, or a lie.

Thais believe appearance is more important than substance. They might not cheat on their income taxes, as a farang would, but they might tell more 'little white lies.'

Do White men ever lie about sex?

[Ijustwannateach]

Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.

I think, though, that it becomes even more important not to lie too much in an intercultural relationship- because it's so easy that if you start doing it, what's the point?

My former candidate tells me about himself (now) openly, because he usually wants advice. He's been fairly good about taking it, too, even if I express my opinion fairly strongly.

He's admitted that he's something of a drama queen and that he often chooses guys that are kind of "bad"- possibly to increase the chance of the drama.

It seems that his former boyfriend (with whom he never has sex anymore) is finally going to be out of the picture; the new guy he likes sounds better to me but it's early days yet.

He was sweet enough to come visit me in the hospital, and he owes me a few introductions!

Hmmmm.... perhaps to answer my own question, in semi-conclusion, I'd have to say he's certainly a little dodgy, but probably not more than normal for a Thai guy that one meets on an internet board!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

A Weird Evening With My Former Candidate (MFC)

I went out to a well-known local bar the other evening to meet my candidate, whose current boyfriend was away on business. The plan was we'd have a few drinks, then I'd bugger off home and he would go dancing at DJ Station [yes, I know, I know].

I got there at the time I had agreed... didn't see him at first, so I went into the bar and sent him an SMS. He came in moments later and motioned to where he was sitting. He was also wearing a baseball cap.

ME: Why are you wearing a baseball cap?

MFC: I got this really embarrassing haircut- it's so short, it makes me look like a high school student!

I didn't point out that he always looked like a high school student, but told him not to be silly. Didn't help, he kept the cap on.

MFC: I'm sitting outside, and there's this really cool guy I started talking to, but he's not Thai, he's from Nepal.

ME: Nepal?

MFC: Yes, and he's not gay!

ME: Not gay?

MFC: Yeah, not gay.

ME: Does he know this is a gay bar?

MFC: I had to tell him. He was pretty surprised- he was asking me questions, like are you really gay and things like that.

ME: I see. So has he decided to change bars, then?

MFC: No, he and I have been talking. It's really interesting. I told him you were coming.

ME: Ok, well, then, I'll come out there. [he showed every inclination to keep this running commentary going in the middle of the bar].

When we got outside to the table, there was a pleasantly slim Nepalese man in professional business outfit drinking a bottle of beer. MFC had a full *pitcher* of beer, nearly emptied, which explained his non-stop talking. I knew he got a bit hyper when drunk, but I hadn't seen him *so* drunk before.

I introduced myself and made small talk with the Nepalese man, while the poor waiters figured out how to maneuver my food and drink onto the same small table with the other matter there. He'd been in Thailand for about 2 years, and was in the "garment" business. His story was that he'd come looking for a girlie bar. I figured that he seemed too smart and too long in Thailand to make that big a mistake with Patpong just a few streets down the block- plus another friend had told me there is very little active gay consciousness in Nepal- so I figured he had just tried to pick up poor naive little MFC and things had gone awry by my arrival. Not that he'd have had to worry; I hadn't dated MFC in over a year. Nevertheless, I didn't attack his cover story.

After some more pleasant conversation and drinking, MFC had a phone call, which made him look very concerned. I chatted with the Nepalese gentleman, wondering when I would be free simply to relax and enjoy my friend's company. Suddenly, MFC broke in.

MFC: "I have very bad news!"

ME: "What?"

MFC: "I have to go now!"

MFC and I had had issues over this kind of thing before- making two sets of plans and then backing out of the one involving me on the day for the other one, not telling me he had a meeting scheduled for an hour after meeting me, etc. I had also tacitly warned him before that if this kind of thing continued it might mean we couldn't meet anymore. But he seemed distraught and upset, so this was different.

ME: "What's the matter?"

MFC: "My boyfriend is back in town by surprise- his business meeting ended early. And he's waiting at the Sala Daeng BTS and wants me to go there now!"

ME: "Why don't you invite him here? I'd like to meet him."

MFC: "I tried, but he's very jealous. I'm really worried about your feelings, too. What should I do?"

ME: "Well, I know this is a little different than before- and it's important that you take care of this guy, so I think you should go to him. But you've got to make it clear to him that when you have plans and obligations you're not just going to cancel them all the time when he's jealous. Otherwise how will you keep your friends?"

MFC: "Yes, I know... well, I will try to talk to him again. Maybe I will be back again in a moment."

ME: "I hope so, but I'll understand if you can't. Call you again soon if you don't."

MFC: "Thanks! Bye!"

So there I was, my dinner companion abandoning me, with my new Nepalese friend (NF). He left a quarter-pitcher of beer, which I do not drink.

NF: "Well, I think I might go up the street a bit. They seem to have some straight bars there. But maybe I will be back as well."

ME: "Ok- nice meeting you."

NF: "By the way, how long have you known him- and are you really gay?"

ME: "Yes, of course. I've known him about 2 years, and he's a good friend."

NF: "How much do you pay him?"

I had to skip a beat while the implications of this question sunk in.

ME: "I don't *pay* him! We're friends!"

NF nodded dubiously, got his bill back from the waiter, shook hands and went further up the Soi.

So then I was left sitting by myself in a bar after having theoretically had a dinner date with a friend. I looked around. There was a kind of cute and dodgy looking type sitting at a table to my right, who looked just wrong enough that there was no chance of any kind of relationship- perfect for me at the moment, since I'm thinking of not having relationships for a little while. He was also drinking the same kind of beer MFC had left at the table. But when I tried to catch his eye he pretended not to notice me and looked away. If he'd at least talked to me I would have given him the beer, no matter what else happened.

But it wasn't that kind of night.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

I just realised that on this same page is another story of MFC meeting a "not gay" man... he seems to attract them- maybe I'll point that out if we ever manage to have a real dinner together again (hope I won't have to wait for him to finish another completely joyless LTR... )

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

MFC is not as naive as I thought. I got a call from him just the other day asking what I thought about our new NF.

"He was asking so many questions... I was wondering... do you think he was really lost there?"

"Well, MFC... he said he had been in Bangkok over 3 years. Do you think he could have been here so long- and NOT figured out where Patpong was, if he was a straight guy looking for girlie bars?"

"No... no, I guess not."

"That's what I thought. I think he was probably trying to pick you up. There are a lot of guys in the world who aren't comfortable calling themselves gay, but still have sex with men."

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Hmmm, methinks MFC just *might* happen to be a closet MBoy.... and NOT so innocent as he makes out.

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Heh heh heh heh... well, that IS the crux of the thread title!!!

I've noticed that money is always a factor in how well he judges his relationships to be going.

He also recently showed up with a new mobile phone from the new boyfriend....

But I think he would prefer, on the whole, to be a "kept boy," though perhaps he's too much of a butterfly for that....

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

It's actually quite "draining" to be around, and to have to accommodate, those Thai guys who make their own lives complicated by juggling 2-3 farang... Even if you're not actually one of the "2-3".. it's still exhausting.!

I've learned (finally) to stay away from those who have to re-arrange and lie about events in their lives.. constantly...

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Now that you mention it, he *is* a kind of draining drama-queen type boy.... I have to ration my exposure to him occasionally because he's always focussed on "me, me, me!" (that is, "him, him, him!")

[DUMPSTER]

Is it not a fact that many farangs choose to pursue more than one Thai guy at a time? As common as it is for a Thai MB’s to have 2, 3 or more b/f's, the same can be said of farangs. In other words there are as many dodgy farangs playing around with Thai guys feelings and promising them this that and the other, as there are Thais.

Thai guys are often promised the world and those promises are often empty. So I for one can see why they feel they have to play 2 or 3 guys. When all said and done, these are normally guys from poor backgrounds, trying to do the best for themselves, and their families. Put yourself in their shoes and see how dodgy you would be under the same set of circumstances. I for one feel blessed that I’m not in their situation having to live my life in this way. Yes you can argue it is their choice and they should get a job at 7-11 paying 22 baht an hour, but even this type of job is often out of their range.

So when one asks how dodgy is my candidate, one should also ask how dodgy am I? It's oh so easy to put one's own side of a story in a favorable light without telling the whole truth!

[PeaceBlondie]

If we were talking about MB's (but we're not supposed to be), the customers and service providers can all be butterflies.

On the other hand, many of the people posting on this thread, whom I know personally, have totally different standards when they're looking for a LTR. They want monogamous partners, who want monogamous partners.

That's why a candidate for a LTR looks dodgy when he appears to have other friends already. Kinda like the last woman I dated, who'd been married three times and hadn't quite divorced the third guy, but was in a big hurry to jump my bone(s).....

Edited February 1, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, PB, MFC is not yet any kind of confirmed MB. And my relationship to him is as a friend, so no danger there (unless it's that draining kind of thing that Chris mentions). As I mentioned earlier in the thread he's no longer really a candidate- so I suppose he's my ex-candidate in that regard, or just a friend- the question of dodginess came up for me when he was still a potential date- and now that he's just a friend, I *know* he's kind of dodgy, but I'm not involved. Still, he's interesting enough to post about.

"Steven"

Edited February 1, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[ChrisP]

ME: "Yes, of course. I've known him about 2 years, and he's a good friend."

NF: "How much do you pay him?"

I had to skip a beat while the implications of this question sunk in.

Umm, sounds like NF was describing a MB situation..?

ChrisP