Song Kran And Talcum Powder

[happylarry]

hey sweetchariot

I am unfortunately an oldie, but I am not whinging about songkran. The post started off about using talc and led to the fact that ladies are being manhandled, which is what most of us are commenting on.

I personally enjoy the time and next month I am moving to Isaan so I will be experiencing a new side to this festival I think.

[isabelle17]

I was in a very rural area last year (which may perhaps be why I had so many problems as I was the only falang, and well, a female.) Songkran WOULD be fun if it weren't for the fact that some people tend to u.se this day as an excuse to do stupid things. I went with a female thai friend of mine and her brother. Of course her brother wasnt paying much attention to us. If it werent for my thai female friend...well lets just say I am VERY happy that I was with her.

This would be abolsutely at odds with caring for a respected guest of the family if the brother of your friend did not take note of aberrant behaviour and take appropriate steps by either preventing it to happen further-on or removing you from the place where this situation was occuring.

Which ergo means, the social situation from his end was not seen as you describe it (you being a guest of his family or person he had any social responsibility for) or there are other details you fail to mention as this would simply not be possible, especially in #very# rural Thailand. It is not unheard of people being knived or shot over slights much smaller than groping a girl.

I don't understand all the complaining; 2 options;

1)you're young of heart and have a great time

2)you stay home ... but please, stop b!itching about it ...

jts khorat-

I was not a guest of this family. Well, at least I wasnt staying with them. And the brother was fairly young...thirteen years old. So....if you take that into consideration...

I agree, it would be at odds with a caring and respectful family. But when some of the incidents occured, he was not in that same area with us. There were also many many many people in large crowds so even if he was close to us, he probably would have not done me much good.

LinkPopularity-

Yes, but if people want to have a good time, they shouldnt have to feel intimidated as well...

[a2396]

Having FUN and a GREAT TIME is throwing water on moving motorcycles & watching the rider flip to possible death or maiming. NUTTY idea of fun to me. In most countries I know, this sort of crap would be illegal.

[jts-khorat]

jts, your connection of my post to red-light areas is not factual and a deliberate smear in order to discredit me and by extension what I have posted.

I was not referring to red-light areas or prostitutes. I am well aware of the social differences in Thailand between hookers and respectable girls.

FYI, these incidents are widespread. Please ask any females you know (not hookers, please) what they do over Songkran and would they walk alone through a busy water-fighting area. One incident I witnessed was in rural Trang. Alcohol and a group mentality made for a very ugly and intimidating atmosphere.

Perhaps you'd like to go and put these posts in the ladies sub-forum and see what kind of response you get.

My quote was:

Just recapitulating, the point of Briggsy was that countrywide, drunk Thai men do use talcum powder regularly to sexually assault any female around them on Songkran, insinuating that this might be actually the only reason that powder is used at all by calling these happenings "commonplace". You having seen only harmless daubings instead validates my point, that Briggsy is untrue to the point of being ridiculous in his statement.

No happylarry, I am not obsessed with red light areas and you yourself stated that you have never witnessed a normal girl being assaulted during Songkran on her way to work outside a red light district, so I do not really see where we differ in opinion.

And yes, Briggsy, I did realize that you completely ridiculously assume that men will use Songkran to sexually assault females regularly (or as a "commonplace" practice) not #just# in a red light district but literally everywhere all over this rather large country.

So I do not see where I smear you, but it is obvious that you either do not remember clearly what you posted yourself or are even more confused than your first post would indicate. The whole thread has only a handful of posts, so I would recommend you go back first and read what you and me have written. It really should not be difficult to see where you and me really are differing in opinion, then come back and we can actually discuss this.

I do know a rather large number of 'respectable' females, and funnily enough they #never# would walk alone during Songkran, the same as they never would go out alone at night or do other things respectable girls just do not do.

Rural Trang, I have frankly never talked to any lone girls there as I do not try to pick up girls from the street (and do not remember having seen such lonely females there waiting for me on the roadside), so maybe the respectable girls you seem to know differ considerably from respectable Thai girls all over the rest of the country. Maybe you can give an explanation why Trang girls as you describe them rather look like 'not respectable' girls to me.

BTW, sexual assault is a serious crime (in my opinion), so this would be a case for the police, and as there should be numerous witnesses (not least the people belonging to the family of the girl in question). I am sure such behaviour is illegal even in Thailand and if you witnessed such an incident I am also sure that you did everything possible to bring the culprits to justice.

To isabelle17: frankly I do not get your post at all; so your social backup was a 13 year old kid, and then you went touchy-feely and doused in water into groups of drunken males, assumingly not even able to communicate with anybody to ascertain a situation was innocently overboard or criminally wrong -- at least this is how your post seems to describe your situation.

Try the same behaviour in any European city with a group of drunken football hooligans and I would assume the result might be rather a lot worse, or at least along the same lines.

Still I do not see the relevance to the use of talcum powder at Songkran -- which was the actual question of the OP.

[isabelle17]

jts, your connection of my post to red-light areas is not factual and a deliberate smear in order to discredit me and by extension what I have posted.

I was not referring to red-light areas or prostitutes. I am well aware of the social differences in Thailand between hookers and respectable girls.

FYI, these incidents are widespread. Please ask any females you know (not hookers, please) what they do over Songkran and would they walk alone through a busy water-fighting area. One incident I witnessed was in rural Trang. Alcohol and a group mentality made for a very ugly and intimidating atmosphere.

Perhaps you'd like to go and put these posts in the ladies sub-forum and see what kind of response you get.

My quote was:

Just recapitulating, the point of Briggsy was that countrywide, drunk Thai men do use talcum powder regularly to sexually assault any female around them on Songkran, insinuating that this might be actually the only reason that powder is used at all by calling these happenings "commonplace". You having seen only harmless daubings instead validates my point, that Briggsy is untrue to the point of being ridiculous in his statement.

No happylarry, I am not obsessed with red light areas and you yourself stated that you have never witnessed a normal girl being assaulted during Songkran on her way to work outside a red light district, so I do not really see where we differ in opinion.

And yes, Briggsy, I did realize that you completely ridiculously assume that men will use Songkran to sexually assault females regularly (or as a "commonplace" practice) not #just# in a red light district but literally everywhere all over this rather large country.

So I do not see where I smear you, but it is obvious that you either do not remember clearly what you posted yourself or are even more confused than your first post would indicate. The whole thread has only a handful of posts, so I would recommend you go back first and read what you and me have written. It really should not be difficult to see where you and me really are differing in opinion, then come back and we can actually discuss this.

I do know a rather large number of 'respectable' females, and funnily enough they #never# would walk alone during Songkran, the same as they never would go out alone at night or do other things respectable girls just do not do.

Rural Trang, I have frankly never talked to any lone girls there as I do not try to pick up girls from the street (and do not remember having seen such lonely females there waiting for me on the roadside), so maybe the respectable girls you seem to know differ considerably from respectable Thai girls all over the rest of the country. Maybe you can give an explanation why Trang girls as you describe them rather look like 'not respectable' girls to me.

BTW, sexual assault is a serious crime (in my opinion), so this would be a case for the police, and as there should be numerous witnesses (not least the people belonging to the family of the girl in question). I am sure such behaviour is illegal even in Thailand and if you witnessed such an incident I am also sure that you did everything possible to bring the culprits to justice.

To isabelle17: frankly I do not get your post at all; so your social backup was a 13 year old kid, and then you went touchy-feely and doused in water into groups of drunken males, assumingly not even able to communicate with anybody to ascertain a situation was innocently overboard or criminally wrong -- at least this is how your post seems to describe your situation.

Try the same behaviour in any European city with a group of drunken football hooligans and I would assume the result might be rather a lot worse, or at least along the same lines.

Still I do not see the relevance to the use of talcum powder at Songkran -- which was the actual question of the OP.

He was not my social back up. He just went along with us to go and have a good time and then eventually split up with me and my thai friend to go look for some of his friends. Look, you dont have to believe me. This is just an opinion from my point of view. Did i give all the details of what went on? No, I did not and I am not going to. I feel I shouldnt have to back my story up because it was true and if you dont want to believe me, that is up to you. I never said that no one stepped in to stop what was going on. Anyway, this doesnt matter because I agree that this is not relevant to the OPs question.

[happylarry]

jts

dont mean to offend you but you were the only one to bring red light districts into this topic.

In all your posts you refer to girls not walking out alone etc. But I dont know what happens where you are but here on Samui the water dousing starts at 6am and carries on until very late evening on ALL types of streets. There are crowds of people drinking and dousing outside every shop, restaurant, bar and ordinary homes even. My wife was a nurse at the Bangkok Samui Hospital in Chaweng, and she had to wear street clothes and take her uniform with her in a waterproof bag to change into. It has already been said that the hospitals are very busy over this period so how do you think they could cope if all the nurses stayed at home during this time. People have to go to work and to do this they have to run the gauntlet.

[jts-khorat]

jts

dont mean to offend you but you were the only one to bring red light districts into this topic.

In all your posts you refer to girls not walking out alone etc. But I dont know what happens where you are but here on Samui the water dousing starts at 6am and carries on until very late evening on ALL types of streets. There are crowds of people drinking and dousing outside every shop, restaurant, bar and ordinary homes even. My wife was a nurse at the Bangkok Samui Hospital in Chaweng, and she had to wear street clothes and take her uniform with her in a waterproof bag to change into. It has already been said that the hospitals are very busy over this period so how do you think they could cope if all the nurses stayed at home during this time. People have to go to work and to do this they have to run the gauntlet.

I am not offended at all, especially as we are still in total agreement. But Briggsy somehow put it into the thread that 'using talcum powder' is rather a pre-amble for sexual assault, which is it not. Being doused in water or talcum powder is the normal habit of Songkran, done in a spirit of wishing well and as it is a very traditional society, not in a mean or even criminal spirit.

On the large, Thai people seem to welcome Songkran and water dousing (it is their own customs after all and at least outside tourist areas not completely degenerated into something less traditional), without the hangups we westerners have about even the most minor 'invasion of our private space'. You said you never witnessed an incident as Briggsy described, and your wife does the minor precaution of not wearing her uniform, following the spirit of Songkran (and rather happily I would believe and not with a feeling of 'runnign the gauntlet'; are you not projecting your own dislike of Siongkran here on her?).

I would be extremely surprised to hear she felt violated or assaulted by being doused in water, but then you might know her better than me; the degeneration of Thai values in the current MTV-fed Thai youth is of course a progressing thing to observe anywhere (which could be material for its own discussion).

Bringing alcohol in the mix is of course a problem as it might bring out the worst in people; but this is not a problem specific to talcum powder use on Songkran, is it now. Nor can I see the connection of sexual assault and office workers going to work on Songkran in a normal home-work route here in Thailand...

[happylarry]

jts

I can see that no amount of argument is going to make you believe other peoples experiences so I am going to leave it there. You never know maybe we will meet in Korat one day and we can debate it further over a beer.

Enjoy.

[JSPS]

When I first got to Thailand in 1968 Song Kran was fun. You just didn't go out if you weren't dressed to get wet. Taking pictures was hard because the only safe way to carry a camera was in a plastic bag and the pictures didn't turn out too well.

In those days it was still mostly buckets and washbasins. Us American GIs would take the hand pump fire extinguishers out of the hootches and drive around spraying everyone.

The thing in those days is that it was fun. Getting angry was considered by everyone, Thai and Farang, as out of the question. If you did get angry you just made it worse because everybody wanted to push your buttons.

Things like ice, ashes and other stuff in the water was bad form. It happened but was usually some local Thai males that didn't like Farangs anyhow.

But it was Sanook.

Now days, I'm not sure even the Thais understand Sanook anymore. A lot of what goes on during Song Kran is definitely mai sanook.

These days we're back in the U.S. and for us, Song Kran is a day of feasting and honoring the elderly, as was originally intended. But you never know when a Thai woman with a supersoaker is going to show up. After the ceremony where we wash the Buddha images and the hands of the monks and elder, it's a supersoaker free-for-all in the parking lot. The kids love it, but if you look really close, you will see a lot of grey hair on some of those kids.

[Ieyuhrah]

A few weeks back (1963? '65?) the Bangkok World ran an article on the traditions of the holiday. It was originally a town/neighborhood ceremony where a cat was carried around and was doused for symbolic redemption. Talcum powder or an equivalent was used on the face & arms to emulate the spirits of ancestors. Tame and respectful but I'm sure that part of the crowd might 'accidently' get splashed from the water being thrown from the upstairs windows and porches (picture the traditional Thai stilt houses, especially rural). When growing up there it was rare for farangs to do much except occationally get splashed on the sidewalks. I never saw water going into cars or on traffic. People in dress or business attire were exempt until evenings and even then it was restrained & rather tame. Most of what I saw was young adults & children water ballooning each other as we do during summer weekend parties. Sounds like massive degeneration of what once was a religious ceremony and simple fun. I would be one to stock up and disappear for the duration. Since it has become dangerous it doesn't sound like it is much fun anymore. I have been saddened by reading all the trash that happens now, especially about the assaults.

[Ieyuhrah]

If I had had my head in the sunshine I would have done a simple Google search for a start. Just did and if anyone wants a rather complete run down from several sources do a search on "Thai festival Songkran". Even has a listing & references on Wikipedia...... Evidently it has traditionally been celebrated with different flavours depending on which part of Southeast Asia you lived. A couple of the sites lament the way it has gone down hill and fails to resemble and follow the signifigance of what it originally meant. In cultural context it appears to have followed the drunken parties and crude/obscene gifts people find amusing at Christmas.......(But that is another thread for sure.)

[TheDon]

I think some of you need to lighten up and chill out.

Its fun, dont like it stay home

[sayitaintso]

Having FUN and a GREAT TIME is throwing water on moving motorcycles & watching the rider flip to possible death or maiming. NUTTY idea of fun to me. In most countries I know, this sort of crap would be illegal.

that's a pretty distorted view.

in most countries i know, fun has been made illegal and or immoral.

happylarry-what banks are open on songkran?

[a2396]

Having FUN and a GREAT TIME is throwing water on moving motorcycles & watching the rider flip to possible death or maiming. NUTTY idea of fun to me. In most countries I know, this sort of crap would be illegal.

that's a pretty distorted view.

in most countries i know, fun has been made illegal and or immoral.

happylarry-what banks are open on songkran?

DISTORTED? Take a ride on your motorcycle during this time. If they would restrict this to specified areas, such as public parks or open space OK, not a fre-for-all on the roadways.

[TheDon]

Having FUN and a GREAT TIME is throwing water on moving motorcycles & watching the rider flip to possible death or maiming. NUTTY idea of fun to me. In most countries I know, this sort of crap would be illegal.

that's a pretty distorted view.

in most countries i know, fun has been made illegal and or immoral.

happylarry-what banks are open on songkran?

DISTORTED? Take a ride on your motorcycle during this time. If they would restrict this to specified areas, such as public parks or open space OK, not a fre-for-all on the roadways.

But where is the fun in that?

You ride a motorbike at your own riks during that time

[misterman21]

I don't understand all the complaining; 2 options;

1)you're young of heart and have a great time

2)you stay home ... but please, stop b!itching about it ...

Stay at home for a week like a prisoner, think not. All normal thinking ferangs hope to be able to get out of thailand during this mass slaughter (look at the death toll - the manipulated death toll, such fun for all!!)

[Globeliner]

What about the hundreds of people that die during this period, due to alcohol? Wake up people, Sonkran is a vile waste of human lives.

[karazyal]

I have never attended Song Kran in Thailand, I was hoping to this year but it looks like I may miss it. I understand the point of playing with water, in regards to blessing and cleansing, though I also realize it has grown from this to plain old firefights, but one of the things I've always wondered is why do people smear Talcum powder on each other? Has this always been a part of it? Is it to help dry the water? It just seems weird most people end up looking like melted ghosts.

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/songkran/index2004.shtml

I read somewhere that the powder is for good luck.

[tokyosheep]

at sonkran time I carry a can of police style mace,only once person and his friends ( farangs I might add, thai,s seem to know a little bit better the ground rules) has ever dared to throw water on me when I politley asked them not to, I maced them , then put them and they,re friends all in hospidal.

That happened only once & it was the only sonkran I enjoyed!.The talcum thing is just a joke- no suprise, remember where we are...

a good intented cermoney totoally taken advantage of by people looking for an exuse.

Most thais adhere to the proper way of doing things, farnags in pattaya for example go mad, like the guys I maced, and take advatnage of it.

Avoid going to certain places, but if you do get it when you,ve politely asked them not, give a little love back!

mace can bought on sukumvit

[kingwilly]

It may have started out as a cooling method in very hot April. Now, however, it is an excuse for men often in drunken gangs to sexually assault women under the guise of 'harmless fun'. If you don't believe me, go witness it yourself.

That is so false hahahahahaha

No. Not completely false. Happened to me on songkran last year.

I think the wording is off a little bit...but songkran is an excuse for a lot of thai guys (or people in general, even some women) to get drunk and do stupid things. So yes, somewhat true....

a lot of westerners do that too !

[happylarry]

sayitaintso.....so you pick on the only one (banks) that may be shut on songkran....show me a hospital or pharmacy that is shut. People have to get to work and when the dousing starts at 6am they dont get much choice , do they?

[TheDon]

Just go slow to work, i mean its ok to go to work wet during this time, it wouldnt take long to get dry anyways.

People just complain about anything and everything

[Briggsy]

Mace???

[peter991]

at sonkran time I carry a can of police style mace, ... quote]

That is so over the top. It's one thing to carry a weapon for self-protection and use it if your life is in mortal danger - it's totally unbelieveable that you would mace people celebrating a Thai festival.

How would your countrymen react if I attended your Takayama Matsuri festival, where large and elaborately decorated floats are pulled through the old town of Takayama in Japan and I started using mace on crowds who jostled me?

Sure - Songkran has degenerated into a water-THROWING festival, when it should be a water-SPRINKLING festival, but there's plenty of publicity about what to expect. I was even drenched by a policeman using a water hose outside his police station in Issan last year - I smiled, laughed and threw a bucket full of water over him from the back of a piclk-up truck.

Peter

[chicowoodduck]

Having FUN and a GREAT TIME is throwing water on moving motorcycles & watching the rider flip to possible death or maiming. NUTTY idea of fun to me. In most countries I know, this sort of crap would be illegal.

My GF owns a bar and is simply THRILLED about the upcoming Song Kran and all that it entails! For her and her, it's all about bringing in the customers during a usual slow time of the year.

Just a sidebar..........in some parts of the US (Midwest) they have a thing called Corn Night just before Halloween. You are suppose to go out under the cover of darkness and play pranks (throw corn at cars, people and houses, wax windows, shaving cream mailboxes, etc.) on your neighbors. Of couse, people took it to the next level and starting spray painting cars, throwing pumpkins THROUGH windows, starting fires and the like. In other words, they took a "harmless" activity and went from dumb to dumber. Sound familair?

[misterman21]

at sonkran time I carry a can of police style mace, ... quote]

That is so over the top. It's one thing to carry a weapon for self-protection and use it if your life is in mortal danger - it's totally unbelieveable that you would mace people celebrating a Thai festival.

How would your countrymen react if I attended your Takayama Matsuri festival, where large and elaborately decorated floats are pulled through the old town of Takayama in Japan and I started using mace on crowds who jostled me?

Sure - Songkran has degenerated into a water-THROWING festival, when it should be a water-SPRINKLING festival, but there's plenty of publicity about what to expect. I was even drenched by a policeman using a water hose outside his police station in Issan last year - I smiled, laughed and threw a bucket full of water over him from the back of a piclk-up truck.

Peter

]

I was in BKK last year and needed to get to the airport, however every taxi that pulled up outside the hotel was drenched in water and powder. As the taxis opened their doors to let out passangers some halfwits through buckets of water and powder inside the cab - very amusing!! I am for mace!

The best songmahem story i read about happened in pattaya a few years ago. 2 nutters approached a copper intent on drenching him - on observing then he warned them he was attending a job/crime and to back off. They took no heed - so he shot them both dead (true story)

[Briggsy]

I was in BKK last year and needed to get to the airport, however every taxi that pulled up outside the hotel was drenched in water and powder. As the taxis opened their doors to let out passangers some halfwits through buckets of water and powder inside the cab - very amusing!! I am for mace!

The best songmahem story i read about happened in pattaya a few years ago. 2 nutters approached a copper intent on drenching him - on observing then he warned them he was attending a job/crime and to back off. They took no heed - so he shot them both dead (true story)

Ahhh yes, this is the Thailand we know and love.

[CuriousGeorge77]

I know several long-stay farangs who prefer to leave Thailand during Songkran - it's a good time to go visit the rellies or Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. The days of "Please mister can I..." followed by a gentle dab of white powder on the cheek(s) are long gone in most tourist areas of Thailand. I'll be stocking up the fridges...

And the doctors and pharmacies do a roaring trade after Songkran - eye infections, sore throats, stomach upsets - all from dirty water being used. And the hospitals and mortuaries get extra business too. What a great time of year.

Some people say the same thing about Christmas