Why Bring Small Children On Holiday?

[Boo]

I have the veiw that if someone wants to control who is on their flight that they don't fly commercially & hire their own private plane to ensure they have the pleasant experience they desire. I have no control over fat people who have a seat next to me & squash into my chair, smelly people who don't use deoderant or mouth wash, drunk people who get wasted then try to stagger up the ailse to releve their booze filled bladder but can't walk straight so end up bashing into people. Fact is, anyone who can afford a ticket has the ability to fly & no one else has a right to dictate who can or can't fly. I can afford to pay for my sons ticket so tough cacka to anyone who doesn't like kids

[ChangMaiSausage]

Well said BOO!

I was much the same regarding children crying when on a long haul flight now I have a little boy who will be flying to Thailand next month he's already flew to the UK (from Qatar) without any crying at all in fact in the last four months he's not cried!!! maybe it's the chilled out Thai in him.

Anyway I hope he stays quiet during his next flight if not I apogise to anyone who will be flying on the 20th March via Qatar.

[Higgins]

In Dec I put my 4 month old boy in the warm waves for the first time and watched him smile.

In 3 weeks we fly back again (3 flts LHR-HKG-BKK-USM for a 12 day rtn trip) ... me, mair, 6 month old and 5 year old, 3 suitcases, pram, numerous kong len and (cos i'm a nice bloke) a new guitar for someone. Its chaos and hard... but my boys will be happy and more. Its very very right.

[Mark Wolfe]

For SBK, I was not talking about economics or such; I was talking about how a person or couple could go somewhere alone and still have their child being taken care of. Forget being "forced" to do something; the fact remains that there is almost always a person or persons who can take care of the child while the parents do some adult recreation themseves.

Don't read more into my post than is there.

My sister is here in Thailand, the mother of two, and her comment was: "When you travel with your kids (young kids), it's a trip; when you travel without them, its a vacation."

I am not talking about abandoning your children or leaving them at the side of the road while you go off to party in Samui for a week. Many posters here seem to think that they have to be with their small children constantly without a break.

It seems to me that being a good parent is also taking care of yourself and your relationship. Are you people suggesting that once you have a child, you have abrogated your need for time alone (just the two of you)? Kids are such a joy that you never want to be without them at your side?

My parents took me and my sister on vacations plenty of times -- after we were old enough to appreciate what we were doing and where we were.

My sister also mentions that the kids got 100 percent grandparent time when she and her husband went to Mexico on vacations, which was good for the kids, good for my sister and her husband, and good for the grandparents. Who could be the loser in this scenario?

By the way, my parents went white water rafting once when I was a small kid and I was in the care of my grandparents, so I was told. What do you people advise? Bundle the baby on the raft and give it a little oar, cancel the trip or what? Any activity that would be either dangerous or impossible with an infant is no longer a recreational possibility now that you have a baby?

What on earth is the big deal about having someone watch your kid while you do something else? Don't you people go to the movies or something with a babysitter looking after the kid? Or are true to your posts and take the baby with you to the "romantic" dinner and then the cinema? Do you carry the baby while you dance?

[nidge]

If i go away for a weekend with my wife i would most likely leave my baby with his grandmother, she loves taking care of him. If it was longer than just a weekend there is no way i would consider going without him.

Babies take up a lot of time and energy. For me it is always a pleasure, whether changing nappies, bathing or feeding.

With a baby = trip, without = vacation. That's the dumbest thing i have read in a long time. For me, with baby = holiday, without baby = holiday while missing my baby

If you have kids and still pine for holidays alone try waiting until they grow up. Your kids are far more important than any holiday. At least they should be.

If you don't want to be bothered by crying babies on a flight, tell them at the check in desk. Parents with babies are nearly always given the same seats. As others have already said, I would rather be sat near a crying baby than a fat/sweaty/drunk or snoring passenger.

Nidge

[Boo]

Mark your arguments is all over the place, I don't know any parent who would leave their under 3 year older for more than a few days in the care of a trusted relative or friend let alone more thana week. So comparing going on holiday to samui to goign to dinner/date/movie is clutching at straws to me & of no relevance to each other.

You assume that people who do holiday with their children somehow don't do the other things. How odd to even be comparing the two situations!!!

Good for your sister to be able to take a holiday alone. You dont' say how old her kids are but I wonder, did she ever take off for a few weeks when they were under a year? If yes, ok I'm not gonna comment except to say, when people have kids imo they take care of them, not dump them for extended periods on other people to do their job just so they can have what they (or even odder, what other people) think is a better holiday So I say again worry about your own self & try to not think too much about what parents do on holiday with their families

[sbk]

Mark, you are assuming that everyone's parents are still alive. Or that everyone comes from a family large enough to have someone willing to take a child. Not necessarily true, is it?

Lets face it, everyone has their own reasons for what they do, what does it really matter to you? Does it hurt you in some way? Does it affect you in some way? Guess I just can't understand the need to judge and fret about people you know nothing about that really don't have anything to do with you in anyway.

Face it Mark, you think too much

[koheesti]

I must have missed the part where Mark was judging the parents. Maybe someone can repost that part, I'm too tired to re-read the thread. I thought it was a good question as well as a timely one since I thought the same thing myself around the same time he started the thread.

[The Vulcan]

Good morning Mark, have a nice day!

[sbk]

More and more it seems I see adults with their very young children here in Lamai. I suppose I can understand having your five-year-old or older along for the amusement of the adults (a five-year-old won't remember anything about the trip, except possibly a vague general memory at best -- a younger child will remember nothing), but bringing a baby seems insane.

An infant or even a kid of two or three is a chore at the best of times, so why would you bring one along on a vacation clear across the globe? Have these people never hear of babysitters?

Don't give me this, "They want to experience the holiday as a family" crap; it's easy to have a "holiday" for a day or so near your own home. Traveling on an airplane for hours with transfers and ultimately staying in a hotel or bungalow for days far from normal amenities with the constant attention a baby needs seems to defeat the purpose of a "vacation."

A "holiday" is defined as a time when one does not work. Taking care of a small child or infant is work, no question.

So why bring the baby along?

PS -- This has nothing to do with "liking children or not"; it's a matter of R&R (Rest and relaxation/ rehabilitation/ recreation).

parents would never leave their kids overseas for a 2 weeks holiday !

How then do you explain Thai mothers leaving their kids with family members while they go elsewhere in the country to work (such as in drinking establishments)? The Thai mothers might just as well be overseas since they do not go home often, perhaps only once every several months.

Life certainly doesn't stop after having kids, but anyone who has been there knows the value of "away time" from the duties to enjoy life without the constant attention a toddler needs.

Perhaps I should have included, along with babysitters, family members. The idea that a mother and father cannot find someone trusted to take care of the baby for a week or two means that they either aren't trying, or they have no friends and have been ostracized from their families.

Sounds pretty judgmental to me koheesti.

[koheesti]

Sounds pretty judgmental to me koheesti.

Please check your PMs.

[happyaussie]

It's all a matter of discipline. The most annoying thing is when parents let their brats scream their heads off and go into tantrums in public. Then sit there as though this is acceptable behavour. Kind of like, "if I have to put up with it so does everyone else". Small children travelling on planes should be banished to the back in some form of sound proof capsule. When in restaurants children should be seen and not heard. This is adult space. They can run rampant in McDonalds etc. Parents using strollers have no special right of way. Fathers should refrain from using those ridiculous "front packs" for carrying babies and there should be kid/family designated spaces on beaches.

Parents enjoy your kids just don't think you have special rights over those of us who don't desire to be annoyed by their screaming and tantrums.

[Mark Wolfe]

I don't know any parent who would leave their under 3 year older for more than a few days in the care of a trusted relative or friend let alone more thana week.

..when people have kids imo they take care of them, not dump them for extended periods on other people to do their job just so they can have what they (or even odder, what other people) think is a better holiday ...

I know people who leave their kids with others for more than a few days.

I know women who leave their kids with a "trusted relative or friend" for months at a time (they are all Thai).

In your opinion, then, Thai ladies who "dump" their kids on relatives to go work are pretty much irresponsible, yes?

Maybe this is part of the cultural divide between Asians and Westerners. In China and Taiwan for example, it is not uncommon at all for the parents to hand over the child at a very early age to the grandparents to tend during the workweek, and they only see the kid on the weekends. I saw this many times myself. I think it strange to have a kid then not be around to raise it in the early years, but that's my cultural bias.

Try making the case to Thai ladies that they are bad mothers for what they do. And the issue is not here of being "forced" or "having no choice" (although that may be the case in many instances); the issue here is whether it is a good idea to bring babies on holiday and whether there is a way to have that holiday away from the kids.

Granted, there are certainly instances where it is "take the vacation with the kids or don't have a holiday at all." This I understand. But I am not talking about couples whose parents are dead or who have no friends or relatives to watch the kid. I would guess that the average couple from the West has some sort of family network or close friends who are able to watch a child for a week or so.

And Boo, would your cronies really say that you were a bad parent for leaving the kid with the grandparents for a week while you were on holiday? If so, that would certainly rankle the grandparents, the implication being that they were not fit to take on this responsibility, or that it would not be a good bonding experience for the kids (never spent any time with your grandparents?)

SBK, I never implied that I thought these people are impinging on my experience or whatever in Samui. I just asked the question as a topic of discussion. Personally, I find it contrary to vacationing. Obviously, I know others feel it worth while to bring their toddlers along. It's interesting to see the nature of the replies. As for thinking too much, isn't this forum for (at least in part) lively discussion?

[koheesti]

In Russia it's common for the parents to send their kids off to stay with grandparents in the countryside for most of the summer while the parents stay in the city and continue to work.

[brizzle]

“The most annoying thing is when parents let their brats scream their heads off and go into tantrums in public. Then sit there as though this is acceptable behavior. Kind of like, "if I have to put up with it so does everyone else".

Reminds me of a drunken stag party I encountered here recently

"Small children traveling on planes should be banished to the back in some form of sound proof capsule"

Hey …what a great idea for drunken stag parties

"When in restaurants children should be seen and not heard"

…need I repeat myself?

"Parents using strollers have no special right of way"

…well in Thailand its difficult to find any right of way…by the way do you feel the same about people in wheelchairs?

“Fathers should refrain from using those ridiculous "front packs" for carrying babies”…

I agree with this one…I let the mother do it…and it doesn’t look anywhere near as ridiculous.

“there should be kid/family designated spaces on beaches”

What a great idea…keeps the kids away from the aforementioned drunken louts…

Believe me its not just kids that can ruin your enjoyment….fact is kids are a part of life and are around us everyday .Most people know that they will get upset by other peoples kids from time to time and like mature adults have learnt to deal with it…some people unfortunately will never learn to deal with it.

Edited February 21, 2008 by brizzle

[koheesti]

Believe me its not just kids that can ruin your enjoyment….fact is kids are a part of life and are around us everyday .

Number of times small children have "ruined my enjoyment": In Thailand: 0, Everywhere else: Maybe once, but I don't remember.

Number of times staggers have "ruined my enjoyment": In Thailand: 0, In Estonia: ~200 times.

Most people know that they will get upset by other peoples kids from time to time and like mature adults have learnt to deal with it…some people unfortunately will never learn to deal with it.

In all fairness, the parents are the ones who decided to have children. It shouldn't be up to everyone else to get used to it whether in the cinema, on a plane, or in a restaurant. Parents should TRY to control their kids and other adults should TRY to understand. Afterall, we were all there at least once in our lives.

[Boo]

..when people have kids imo they take care of them, not dump them for extended periods on other people to do their job just so they can have what they (or even odder, what other people) think is a better holiday ...

Mark please try to read what is written instead of trying to turn this into a thai versus western cultural issue. I have been quite clear so the least you can do is read it properly.

the issue here is whether it is a good idea to bring babies on holiday and whether there is a way to have that holiday away from the kids.

& that is what I am talking about, you are the one trying to turn it into a thai women working & leaving their children wiuth relatives issue. So you should really try to keep on topic or decide what exactly it is you are trying to say.

I would guess that the average couple from the West has some sort of family network or close friends who are able to watch a child for a week or so.

Again you assume that there are people just sitting aorund, no jobs, all the time in the world to look after someone else offspring 24/7 for a couple of week!!! Newsflash dear, everyone I know works, including myself. Oh how lovely to have unlimited childcare resources sitting around doing nothing all day but that isn't life in the west for the people in my life But again, I don't know anyone who would leave their kids as I & others have already stated, we like our kids & wouldn't want to leave them regardless of who was avaiable to look after them.

And Boo, would your cronies really say that you were a bad parent for leaving the kid with the grandparents for a week while you were on holiday? If so, that would certainly rankle the grandparents, the implication being that they were not fit to take on this responsibility, or that it would not be a good bonding experience for the kids (never spent any time with your grandparents?)

Do you know my mum? How could youi possible know what would rankle her? Confused!!! But fyi, she is the only grandparent, the others are dead or overseas. She works part time & in the other days helps look after my neice & takes my son one day a week whilst I work. What would rankle her would be someone assuming that she has time to take care of a 9month old for 2 weeks whilst me & my husband went away. Dunno where you were raised mark but it is considered rude to take advantage of a parents generosity. I mean apart from her age, taking on full time care for a small child is hard work (I should know but then I chose to have a baby ) she bonds plenty with my son but I wouldn't want to add to her already full & active life by expecting her to do my job & I wouldn't want to inflict the amount of work it takes on any one else either. As I already said, I don't beleive in dumping my kid on anyone just so I can have a holiday. I can have a good holiday with him so feel no need to leave him & certainly, people like you with your funny ideas don't even come into my mind when planning trips abroad.

I'll say it one more time, try not to think about other people too much, get a hobby instead .

[nod]

Don't forget to check out Mark Wolfe's teaching methods in the "Private Swimming lessons" post!

Cheers.

[brizzle]

In all fairness, the parents are the ones who decided to have children. It shouldn't be up to everyone else to get used to it whether in the cinema, on a plane, or in a restaurant. Parents should TRY to control their kids and other adults should TRY to understand. Afterall, we were all there at least once in our lives

Yes I totally agree parents should try and control their kids,that's what good parenting is all about, but in the case of an infant which is only months old this is nye on impossible.You can only do your best.I don't ever expect people to get used to it...just deal with it..its part of life and as long as humans continue to have babies it won't be going away none too soon!.As for planes there are worst things than crying infants such as loud or drunk adults,smelly adults and sick adults...my father ended up wth a serious chest infection in a Sydney hospital for one week prior to the RWC finals courtesy of the passenger next to him who was in no fit state to fly.

I won't carry on with that one though as annoyances on planes deserves a thread all of its own.

As far as kids generally I go along with the comedian who said " I love kids...I used to go to school with them!"

Edited February 21, 2008 by brizzle

[southbot]

My mum took me everywhere when I was a baby/kid.

And I DO remember bits and pieces, even from travelling as a 3 year old.

The idea that babies don't remember is a bit odd you know, because they DO most certainly remember things.

Just that our education systems tend to teach us and them that they do NOT remember.

Travelling at a young age left me with a distinct travel bug which has been biting me ever since.

I see no problem in that. And if I had kids I would take them with me no matter where I went and why would I not travel the whole globe with them?

I would not trust a baby sitter for 2-4 weeks solid, you could not be serious about that could you?

Some baby sitters eat babies you know, OK to leave 'em for a night but not for a days on end, kid will end up in microwave for sure, eh?

I for one see nothing wrong at all with people travelling even with very young babies.

Oh sure, their crying and general noise annoys me at times, so I am annoyed, I put on the headphones or move my body elsewhere. No problem. Kids make noise, it is a fact and we must deal with it.

BABIES HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL

In fact they should have the right to vote because most of them have more brains than most of us, yes?

[koheesti]

I mean apart from her age, taking on full time care for a small child is hard work...

Ah, but as has been pointed out here several times it is a complete joy!

[Boo]

Yes but still hard work. Have some, you'll see what we mean

[Cuban]

Oh sure, their crying and general noise annoys me at times, so I am annoyed, I put on the headphones or move my body elsewhere. No problem. Kids make noise, it is a fact and we must deal with it.

BABIES HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL

I'm sure parents can do with their children what they please, that is their choice and to some extent their right.

HOWEVER: As parents, they need to understand that many long haul holiday destinations are not the same as back home with regard to safety standards whether we are considering hotel bedroom wiring or food hygiene at the hotel buffet or street stall or beach ice cream vendor (think refrozen yesterdays goods). Is it right that the children are exposed to these risks? Yes, I'm sure many parents will jump on this post saying that they do take care, watch out, check this and tell the kids to be careful of that, but the headlines report year on year of holiday deaths due to parents not being able to watch junior 24/7. Accidents happen.

About an hour ago I read about a Canadian girl that died here in a pool side accident, I remember reading about an electric shock killing a European boy on Phuket last year I think playing with his computer game in the hotel bedroom, where the parents consider him in a place of safety.

I would suggest that small children, and let's include babies, can travel anywhere as we as a species have survived some 20,000 years since coming down from the trees eating semi rotten food we find and avoiding wild beasts. However during that time many of our offspring did not survive. They did die through eating the wrong sort of red berry from the bushes, they were eaten by tigers or suffered a fatal snake bites because they did not know better themselves, they might be more % brain then adults but they have no experiance to protect themselves. Protection is the sole task of a parent, the child might enjoy the beach on the islands - but is it really worth it?

Even a minor bout of diarrhea that would cause a few days discomfort to an adult can be really scary for a kid, even life threatening. Tropical sun burn for a young child from North America or Europe that is not exposed to the sun much during the Northern Hemisphere winter could be roasted out here. I saw a young Russian child in Tesco a short time ago who's face and arms were glowing bright red. Skin Cancer?

These facts added to the long haul flight in econnomy class where your screaming brat is the most unwelcome thing on the whole plane including reheated meals and the smelly backpacker scratching his groin.

Parents have an implicit duty of care to their children - it is a pity they only consider the family qudous of a long haul holiday and not the real life risks they are taking on board when they step off the plane.

[Boo]

[brizzle]

Oh sure, their crying and general noise annoys me at times, so I am annoyed, I put on the headphones or move my body elsewhere. No problem. Kids make noise, it is a fact and we must deal with it.

BABIES HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL

I'm sure parents can do with their children what they please, that is their choice and to some extent their right.

HOWEVER: As parents, they need to understand that many long haul holiday destinations are not the same as back home with regard to safety standards whether we are considering hotel bedroom wiring or food hygiene at the hotel buffet or street stall or beach ice cream vendor (think refrozen yesterdays goods). Is it right that the children are exposed to these risks? Yes, I'm sure many parents will jump on this post saying that they do take care, watch out, check this and tell the kids to be careful of that, but the headlines report year on year of holiday deaths due to parents not being able to watch junior 24/7. Accidents happen.

About an hour ago I read about a Canadian girl that died here in a pool side accident, I remember reading about an electric shock killing a European boy on Phuket last year I think playing with his computer game in the hotel bedroom, where the parents consider him in a place of safety.

I would suggest that small children, and let's include babies, can travel anywhere as we as a species have survived some 20,000 years since coming down from the trees eating semi rotten food we find and avoiding wild beasts. However during that time many of our offspring did not survive. They did die through eating the wrong sort of red berry from the bushes, they were eaten by tigers or suffered a fatal snake bites because they did not know better themselves, they might be more % brain then adults but they have no experiance to protect themselves. Protection is the sole task of a parent, the child might enjoy the beach on the islands - but is it really worth it?

Even a minor bout of diarrhea that would cause a few days discomfort to an adult can be really scary for a kid, even life threatening. Tropical sun burn for a young child from North America or Europe that is not exposed to the sun much during the Northern Hemisphere winter could be roasted out here. I saw a young Russian child in Tesco a short time ago who's face and arms were glowing bright red. Skin Cancer?These facts added to the long haul flight in econnomy class where your screaming brat is the most unwelcome thing on the whole plane including reheated meals and the smelly backpacker scratching his groin.

Parents have an implicit duty of care to their children - it is a pity they only consider the family qudous of a long haul holiday and not the real life risks they are taking on board when they step off the plane.

This could equally apply to Spain or Greece ...apart from the long haul flight there really is little difference provided you do not venture too far off the beaten path here in Thailand.

My baby was born and lives in this country and although I am always careful, as I would be with her anywhere, I really do not believe there is any reason to get unnecessarily paranoid about the safty of my child. At least the air on the south of Samui is clean! (well hopefully??)

[brizzle]

My mum took me everywhere when I was a baby/kid.

And I DO remember bits and pieces, even from travelling as a 3 year old.

The idea that babies don't remember is a bit odd you know, because they DO most certainly remember things.

Just that our education systems tend to teach us and them that they do NOT remember.

Travelling at a young age left me with a distinct travel bug which has been biting me ever since.

I see no problem in that. And if I had kids I would take them with me no matter where I went and why would I not travel the whole globe with them?

I would not trust a baby sitter for 2-4 weeks solid, you could not be serious about that could you?

Some baby sitters eat babies you know, OK to leave 'em for a night but not for a days on end, kid will end up in microwave for sure, eh?

I for one see nothing wrong at all with people travelling even with very young babies.

Oh sure, their crying and general noise annoys me at times, so I am annoyed, I put on the headphones or move my body elsewhere. No problem. Kids make noise, it is a fact and we must deal with it.

BABIES HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL

In fact they should have the right to vote because most of them have more brains than most of us, yes?

Well said southbot!

[Mark Wolfe]

Boo:

...you are the one trying to turn it into a thai women working & leaving their children wiuth relatives issue.

No, I was using it as an example, as I used other examples as well (as my own). I brought this up as an example since it is not only salient, but ubiquitous in Samui.

Because you only have one grandparent doesn't mean everyone is hobbled as you are. I bring up the situations of Thai workers to show that there exists a large segment of some society that can cope with parents handing off the caregiving duties to others.

Many on this thread seem to think that not being with your child every day of its young life is unthinkable and akin to a crime.

By the way, I never said that infants or youngsters on Samui mattered to me; more power to the parents if that is what blows their hair back, but for me, it seems bizarre in the extreme to have a baby here. Maybe people should be bringing their dogs and cats along on holiday too (and I know at least a few who cannot stay away from home very long for this very reason -- they miss their pets too much. My mother is one.).

Read again carefully; I said that if a couple has no choice but to bring the baby or not go on vacation, well, then they may have to bring along the kid. Boo sounds like she can't find anyone to look after her baby while she enjoys an adult vacation. So be it.

Brizzle:

The idea that babies don't remember is a bit odd you know, because they DO most certainly remember things.

Just that our education systems tend to teach us and them that they do NOT remember.

You mean like de-programing? Yikes!

Here's a thought, what about the Club Meds that cater specifically to families with children vs. the adult Club Meds? There Club Meds that are for 18 and older. The ones for families have things designed for kids to do. Another thread here has asked what things on Samui are suitable for kids to do. Not much, apparently. The guy threatening to "poison" dogs that come close to his kids mentioned that there are few things for kids to do (other than play in the giant sandbox, it seems, and be scared of dogs).

What is it that Samui holds for older children? And what sort of place is this to bring young, impressionable kids?

Kid looking at wildly girating girls dancing on poles with breasts nearly falling out in mini skirts: "Mommy, what are all these girls doing?"

Mom: "Ask your dad."

Kid: "Dad?"

Dad: "Well son, they are prostitutes. They have sex with men for money, or, sometimes, they go with really older men -- like grandpa -- because the old men are lonely and can't find a girlfriend in their own country."

Kid: "Sex? I know what that is. Like what you and Mommy did to make a baby."

Dad: "Sure."

Kid: "So these men want to have babies with the dancing girls?"

Dad: "Well, I think not. ..

Kid: "That man over there looks like Uncle Bob. They drink a lot of beer."

Of course you could lie to your kids, tell them that the girls all work in the peace corp or something.

There are so many economical family oriented places to go besides Thailand.

[Boo]

Boo sounds like she can't find anyone to look after her baby while she enjoys an adult vacation. So be it.

nope, I have been quite clear, I like my child & want to bring him when we go on holiday, I enjoy his company & wouldn't leave him if I had all the options in the world. It's called being a family, just cause you can't get your head around that not everyone needs to holiday alone doesn't mke it a problem for other people. What is an "adult vacation" what does one involve??

[SusieWolfe]

What is an "adult vacation" what does one involve??

This is Mark's sister, Susie, visiting him in Thailand from the US. I have been on the sidelines watching these conversations unfold and wanted to add my 2 cents. I am a mother of two children ages 20 & 22. I love to travel and have done so before I had children, while they were quite young and continue to travel now that they are young adults. Let me also add that I have been divorced and remarried.

I strongly feel that with the high rate of divorce in the US (over 50%) it is vital to a marriage to spend time nurturing the adult side of the relationship of marriage. I love my children whole heartedly but had there been a better balance between parenting and being husband and wife, my earlier marriage (and many others I would guess) would have fared much better. So to see someone ask the question, "What is an adult vacation"? is laughable to me. There are places, resorts, etc. that are geared towards adult- themed entertainment that would be inappropriate for young children, and these places allow adults to be adults...as opposed to say taking the kids to Disneyland. I did travel with my children when they were young to Disneyland and also a family-oriented Club Med many times but I learned the hard way that as a woman to pigeon-hole myself as only a "mother" had detrimental effects on my role as a "wife." Had there been more "alone" time for uninterrupted husband and wife time the fate of my first marriage would have been different.

Adult-themed...when I am with my husband and we are on vacation alone, there are things that we can do without having to censor our behavior. If you don't understand what things you want to do alone, then I feel sorry for you. If you don't understand what constitutes family activities, I feel sorry for you.

The other thing is that as a mother and a wife, when I am on holiday either alone or with my husband, I do not always want to be mixing with other people and their young children.

If you want to velcro yourself to your children for 18 years, that's your choice, but at some point they will leave and go out on their own and you will be left with just you and your husband, if you last that long, and will have little experience being a couple on your own without "the kids around."

I have friends who are going through this now -- learning to be a couple, something that they could have been more familiar with years ago if they had not been keeping their kids so tightly tied to the apron strings.

(And my kids are in university and are not only well adjusted, but polite and upstanding people. My going on vacation without them didn't "ruin" them. Perhaps quite the opposite as they grew up with broader experiences.)

And as a matter of perspective, I would go on vacation once a year, basically. It's not like I was some <deleted>' gypsy mom....

By the way...not to open yet another sensitive can of worms, but I am traveling without my current husband. Partly for economic reasons, partly selfishly to have my brother to myself and also to have some away time from my hubby, who by the way is not only taking care of our ranch back home, and doing things with the guys in a way that he would otherwise not do when I was there. The point is that he is not home bitter that I am off in Thailand without him. We miss each other but have no doubt that this time away will result in a great reunion and better appreciation for each other.

[toptuan]

-i fully agree with your opinion on "wailing infant on a long flight"!

Years ago, I began a long 13-hour flight to Tokyo from the USA in economy class with a wailing infant on the lap of the mother in the adjoining seat. I had just resigned myself to a 13 hour torture session, when the flight attendant came by my seat: "Mr. ______, would you come with me?" calling me by name. I thought I'd been busted for bringing my nail clipper in my carry-ons.

Instead, she led me up to the almost-empty first class section, where she seated me comfortably with a pillow at my head. "Mr. ____, I'll go back and bring your personal things to you. I'm sure you'll enjoy this area much more!" For the next 13 hours, I was wined and dined at five times my paid fare.

Never been so thankful in my entire life for a wailing infant!

P.S. Although Northwest Airlines is far down the list of desirable airlines, they did earn some measure of loyalty from me that day.