Why Bring Small Children On Holiday?

[neion2000]

Don't you people go to the movies or something with a babysitter looking after the kid? Or are true to your posts and take the baby with you to the "romantic" dinner and then the cinema? Do you carry the baby while you dance?

I watch movies, and I watch the news, and that is MORE of a reason not to trust a baby sitter.. When it comes to being a parent and you have the need/instincts to have your child with you during a romantic vacation or just going to the movies, it's up to the parents and not anyone else to make that decision..

Plus, if you don't know the circumstances why someone would not leave their child at home, then ask them... They may have wanted to leave their child-(ren) with family or a baby sitter, but it may have not been an option.. Or, they just want to bring their children with them, why do you care? If you get annoyed because a baby is crying when you're on a plane, then buy a Bose speaker headset to drowned out the noise of everything that goes on during a flight... If you don't want to bring your kids to a family function, then don't, it's up to you..

I'll also add, if I had a one year old child, and had someone I could trust my life on to take care of him/her, then I would do that... Because I would love to spend some alone time with my significant other in some romantic location or just a night out in the town.. I just know that it's not always possible..

Anyway, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to opinions, in this situation..

[theoracle]

Mark - get out more and stop revolving your life around this forum.

Mark's sister - Get out and enjoy your holiday, give mark a kick up the backside and make him take you somewhere nice for the day instead of dragging you into these unbelievably frustrating threads.

[Boo]

good for you susie for doing what you felt was best for you as a mum & wife but as for feeling sorry for me, well keep it love, there is no need so it is not nessecary nor wanted.

My husband & I have ben together 7 years & our son is only 9 months so think that we know how to be a couple but tbh you would have no idea of how much time we spend together as a couple cause it has never come up here. Thankfully we get a lot of opportunity at home so don't need to cram a couple of weeks of being a couple into our holiday & for both of us, our piority when away from work & normal life is to spend time as a family, that is our choice. If you can't undertsand that then that is, entirely your problem.

My comment about "adult holiday" was tounge in cheek, meant to be a joke to make the point that what your brother deems to be adult entertainment isn't neccesarily what other people would like to do. Obviously it was missed or maybe I should have put a smilie like this

But in case you still don't get it here are some examples; We don't drink a lot(well I don't) dont' like clubs or dancing & have never been for fancy dinners (mainly cause I have gastro problems but also we aren't impressed by a'la carte either), going to cinema, well not exactly anything special is it, we can do that any day of the week at home. In fact when we choose to do so, we do any of the "adult themed" activities in London cause contrary to Marks assumption earlier, we do have people who will & do watch our son for us but chose not let them for more than a night. So, to reiterate, holiday for us is for relax, catch up on sleep, spend time together (as we both work & baby goes to childcare) visit sights, visit freinds & family & generally spend time together.

Sorry if that doesn't tie up with your idea of a holiday or what a couple should do for 2 weeks a year but well, it does for us & we aren't going to change just cause you & Mark can't undertsand it

Enjoy the rest of your holiday.

[Mark Wolfe]

Mark - get out more and stop revolving your life around this forum.

Mark's sister - Get out and enjoy your holiday, give mark a kick up the backside and make him take you somewhere nice for the day instead of dragging you into these unbelievably frustrating threads.

Mark: For me, I touch type and do so quickly. I also can read fairly rapidly. "Revolving your life around this forum"? Uh, huh.... That's me, Mr Thaivisa forum man. Actually, I spend very little time indeed on this forum.

theoracle:

...unbelievably frustrating threads.

Wow, if it's that bad for you maybe you ought to get back to work. And if you're not at work, shouldn't you be spending more quality time with your child?

Neion2000:

If you get annoyed because a baby is crying when you're on a plane, then buy a Bose speaker headset to drowned out the noise of everything that goes on during a flight.

Uh, so how does that work, exactly? I can't recall there being a Bose duty-free shop on the plane in flight. ..

So what you are saying is that it is the responsibility of the people being inconvenienced by a crying infant to come prepared with electronic sound canceling equipment? Well, at least you've thought this through.

Susie: I agree with my brother, I type very fast and having a few things to say in an online forum over our morning coffee is hardly wasting the day. We had a great day today and a nice hike/ swim at Na Muang Waterfall today and a great lunch on the beach, topped off with a nice afternoon on the porch watching the sun go down. By the way, "Revolving your life around this forum"? Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? Or is this what you do during the day while your child is in childcare?

Incidentally, it sounds that you may have the wrong impression about what constitutes an "adult vacation". Today was a great example, the hike today was very challenging and not appropriate for young children. In fact, we saw none yet it has been one of the most interesting sites here on Samui thus far. There are a lot of things you can do that would be considered adult that does not consist of going to night clubs or out dancing.

I do want to commend you on your 7+ year marriage and I know fist hand that children enhance your life to the fullest. If it is your choice not to leave them to go on holiday so be it...I think the original question posed was why would someone come all the way to Thailand with small children in tow...having been lots of places this would not be top on my list to visit with youngsters. NOT people shouldn't travel with their children at all. Remember, this is Thai forum not Disneyland forum.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Mark Wolfe

[Boo]

susie, suggest you read who's comments you are refering to before making comments like

Revolving your life around this forum"? Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? Or is this what you do during the day while your child is in childcare?

I will assume this is aimed at me as I am the only one to mention childcare, fyi, I never said anyone was revolving their life around a forum so try to be a bit classy & not attack people who haven't attacked you.

You felt the need to sign up & give unwanted marraige guidance & parenting advice to me so I replied to you specifically. But yes it is my choice to bring my child anywhere I want, the topic asked why people would bring small children on holday, I have answered clearly, because I can & because I want to but lets be even clearer, just because you don't consider it a suitable holiday spot only means you have different interest & go different places to us.

Really is that simple.

Anyway, like I said already enjoy the rest of your holiday

[neion2000]

Mark - get out more and stop revolving your life around this Neion2000:

If you get annoyed because a baby is crying when you're on a plane, then buy a Bose speaker headset to drowned out the noise of everything that goes on during a flight.

Uh, so how does that work, exactly? I can't recall there being a Bose duty-free shop on the plane in flight. ..

So what you are saying is that it is the responsibility of the people being inconvenienced by a crying infant to come prepared with electronic sound canceling equipment? Well, at least you've thought this through.

I'm just going with that you're not on the plane at the moment and that you would have the opportunity to purchase that particular item prior to a future trip.. I just seen the advertisement that it could be very helpful to drowned out some much of the noise that could occur on a flight.. It has to be better than what the airline lets you use, so yes, it would be the responsibility of each person that is inconvenienced or annoyed to do what ever to takes to make their own flight more pleasant..

Now I most likely jinxed myself by joining in this conversation... I have a flight to Thailand this Wednesday.. I did not take my own suggestion by buying them headphones, so most likely I'll be sitting aside crying twins, that have the shits, and I'll be saying to myself, freaking Mark!!! you cursed me.. dam_n you!!!

Edited February 23, 2008 by neion2000

[Mark Wolfe]

susie, suggest you read who's comments you are refering to before making comments like

Revolving your life around this forum"? Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? Or is this what you do during the day while your child is in childcare?

I will assume this is aimed at me as I am the only one to mention childcare...

theoracle:

Mark - get out more and stop revolving your life around this forum.

You could have assumed that the reply was in response to the person who posted the comment, instead of being defensive.

Personally, I have no problem with anyone bringing a child anywhere, as long as it doesn't unduly interfere with me. I agree that kids misbehaving in restaurants, for example, is unacceptable. Odd that the parents often do nothing about this, when if drunk Uncle Bob started making similar noises they would be embarrassed and do what they could to control him.

It's the movie scenario: Bring a baby to a movie...as soon as it starts crying you are obligated (in my mind) to leave the theater (unless you have your noise-canceling headphones, of course).

Similarly, if your baby starts to make a fuss to the annoyance of others (vacationers) around you, you ought to be sensitive enough to address the situation.

I am speaking in general, and not aiming this at anyone....

[BigSnake]

Disagree a five year old can remember a lot about a trip and may even enjoy it more than the adults. Maybe they are just a loving and close family and enjoy doing things together. aLL POWER TO THEM.

[SusieWolfe]

Boo- You seem rather defensive and that I cannot help. But it is my belief that these types of forums are to provide insight to all. Out of curiosity have you traveled to Thailand with your baby? And if so, what did you do while you were here?

Everyone has their preferences about travel and the freedom to choose... and I support the concept. However, I hope that those reading this who decide to travel with children remember how "passionate" some of us feel about having to tolerate unruley children on long flights, quiet beaches and otherwise peaceful restaurants. Case in point, I had a 14 hour flight from LA to Taiwan on my way to Bangkok and there was a 2-3 year old boy behind me traveling with his grandmother. When he was awake he constantly kicked the seat or played with the tray table. I asked the woman to please have him stop but she was Thai and didn't speak English well enough to understand. A flight attendant had to interveen and spoke to the woman. Now...everyone who has had this happen to them knows what happend next...the child stopped for about 2 minutes (maybe) then contined to kick on and off for the rest of the flight. The most frustrating thing about this is the woman did nothing to stop it or even act as if is was a problem.

It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident but is is not, it happens all too often.

So to all of those planning on traveling to Thailand with children, my opinion is this place is not as family friendly as many, many other places in the world. And for those traveling with children in general...please be aware that although you choose to travel with your child the person in the seat in front of your kid may have gone out of thier way to travel without thier child and to have to be subjected to someone elses ill behaved child is less than a preferred way to start a relaxing vacation.

[sbk]

I don't have kids, probably won't. Not that I don't like kids, but just never felt the need to burden my life with children. I don't care if other people have kids and have absolutely no compunction telling people to mind their naughty kids. So, Susie, instead of putting up with a naughty kid, you should have again called the flight attendant and told her that this is intolerable and something needed to be done. Perhaps she would have moved you to business instead?

Regardless, the complaint about kids making a ruckus on the plane, in the hotel, on the beach or in the pool really has very little to do with Mark's original observation about the quality of holiday that parents can have if their small children are along, does it?

We have gone from "how can parents have a proper holiday if their kids are with them" to what was, most likely, the real issue in the first place: "Naughty ill behaved kids drive me nuts and shouldn't be interfering with my holiday"

[Boo]

Selective reading again I see Mark No not defensive susie, just sick of people making snide comments about things they have no idea about. If your comment about childcare wasn't aimed at me then you should have quoted the person you were referring directly but as I was the only person to make a comment about childcare in the whole thread then I could only assume it was for me otherwise why make the comment in the first place??

Yes, I have travelled to thailand with my son, he is half thai & as I lived on Samui for 7 years am fully aware of what is or isn't avaibale for kids to do. Again, just cause you don't view it as a suitable holiday destination just means you have a different idea of what should be done on holiday. Not everyone needs to go hiking or whatever you deem adult activities & not all kids need the distraction of disneyland to have a good time, thousands of families go on similar holidays to spain or greece etc & there is not that much for them to do there either except play sandcastles on the beach or go swimming & to aquariums and those destinations are also deemed a good family choice just as Samui is now being marketed but my 9 month old doesn't need a lot of amusment to be happy & needed even less when we were there when he was 3 monhts old so thanks for worrying but if he neds amusing, we will find something.

As for the rest of your post about flights , well not really anything to do with the topic at hand but as I answered a few posts back, if you don't like kids on flights, book a private jet, can't afford it?? Then suck it up like the rest of us or like sbk said, keep complaining until you get an upgrade or beter seat.

[Patsycat]

Well said Boo.

I have not been blessed with children but i would never put my life on hold if i had them. Why not travel with your kids - let them see other cultures, countries etc. My parents did it with me and my brother and sister and we are still alive to tell the tale - and recount the memories and stories.

We probably ate dirt in numerous countries!!!

[Mark Wolfe]

Selective reading again I see Mark …. If your comment about childcare wasn't aimed at me then you should have quoted the person you were referring directly…

IF you can't follow the conversations without needing pull quotes, then I apologize.

Yes, I have travelled to thailand with my son, he is half thai & as I lived on Samui for 7 years am fully aware of what is or isn't avaibale for kids to do.

Why did you move away from Thailand when the baby came? Isn't Thailand a suitable place for a baby to live? Or just suitable for a holiday with baby?

…not all kids need the distraction of disneyland to have a good time…

Indeed, young kids are as happy with the box as the toy inside; or the sands of a Thai beach or the sand in a box in your backyard in England. So the trip isn't about any entertainment/learning, etc value the child might gain, it's purely about the parents, read: the adults.

…if you don't like kids on flights…Then suck it up like the rest of us or like sbk said, keep complaining until you get an upgrade or beter seat.

Why is it the responsibility of the airlines to discipline someone's kid? Why should I move because another passenger is being irresponsible or annoying? Isn't it the adult parents' duty to control their children such that they do not bother others? If a child were to kick the back of your seat in a restaurant, would you expect to have the waitress move your dining party or would you expect that the parents of the kid should put their child right? What about a family movie? If a kid were kicking the back of your seat in a theater, would you move you and your kids? Don't you think learning common courtesy is important and the job of the parent?

SBK – No, sorry to disappoint, but my original post was the nature of the query. If I had wanted to discuss kids bothering adults on vacation I would have started that thread. I do know how forums work.

We were walking along the narrow lanes in Lamai with the ear-shattering music blasting out of each bar, crashing into a cacophony of disjointed sounds and noticed a Thai hooker in one bar holding a foreign baby, maybe about 6 months old. The parents were saddled up to the bar enjoying the libations of Samui.

So, I guess I was wrong about at least one activity I thought was for adults only….

We also saw a man with an infant in a stroller/pram (a rather industrial-strength one) who was trying to negotiate a parked car, while holding some sort of baby paraphernalia like diapers and a blanket in one hand and steering with the other while another car came by…he glanced up at the car, then at us as we walked passed and he had this unmistakable look of "I need a vacation" on his face. I just thought, "Well, that looks like fun. Bet you're glad you brought the kid."

But to each his own….

[sbk]

But to each his own….

........And it only took you 3 pages to figure that out

[Mark Wolfe]

Why not travel with your kids - let them see other cultures, countries etc. My parents did it with me and my brother and sister and we are still alive to tell the tale - and recount the memories and stories.

We probably ate dirt in numerous countries!!!

How old were you?

"Yeah, I remember when I was 11 months old, I was sitting at the foot of the pyramids, and my sister, she was a year-and-a-half, she says to me: 'Big, big, big,' and I says back: 'bwah, gwah, oooooh.' My Mom had to take the dirt of my hand because I was just about to taste some. At the time I thought the pyramid dirt was sacred and might help me grow strong bones...this was from some article in the New England Journal of Medicine that I overheard my mother reading out loud to my Dad. But of course it was just dirt! Hahaha!"

We are discussing very young kids being with vacationing parents....

Young kids can't get anything out of different cultures or countries. As I said, they are happy playing with the upturned trash bin as with a Faberge egg.

[Boo]

mark, really if you can't quote the part I was referring to & see that your sister made a direct refereence to somethign I had written then you really do have selective reading but tbh you & your sisters arguments are pointless. You have your own issues with the subject but you really need to try to accept that you can't control who walks the streets or gets on a plane.

I & others gave you our opinions to your op based on travelling with our children, but I suggest you either get your own kids & start worrying about them instead of obsessing about mine or learn to accept other people can go where they want with or without their kids in tow. We are doing just fine & yes, we adults will continue to chose to take our child whereever we want & continue to have a good time doing it.

Buy fyi we moved from samui to Issan & then to London well before my son was even a thought in my mind. Do try not to assume too much.

As for the rest of the post.... so just cause you see one couple with a baby in a bar you make a huge assumption about all parents on holiday based on that!?? Or an instance of a kid kicking a seat back & make the leap that all kids shouldn't fly becuase you sister had the misfortune to be sitting infront of a kid whos grandparent couldn't control them??? Really???. Hmm how narrow minded, maybe I should start saying how all men shouldn't travel to thailand cause some of them can't control themselves & come here to have sex with children or how about how all airlines should ban alcohol cause one adult on my last flight got so wasted he fell down in the plane & had to be lifted back into his seat & had a big wet patch down his pants. Get real!!!!

Those examples are just as pathetic as the ones you have given. How about all the parents who are in after a nice relaxing day at the beach who you never see at bars or the ones who's kids sit quietly on planes drawing, watching tv, playing or are just asleep, you don't notice them do you?? cause they aren't kicking the back of your seat or screaming blue murder, just as no one cares about the thousands of men who come to thailand & dont' have sex with children or get drunk & make a show of themselves or get arrested for drugs or fighting. The good ones are quitely having their holiday & not bothering anyone.

QUOTE (Mark Wolfe @ 2008-02-25 10:47:18)

But to each his own….

Yes exactly

[Khun Jean]

We have kids. We travel all over the place with them. First trip for my daughter was when she was 2 weeks old. (She doesn't remember that one, but we have pictures to proof it, and she likes those.)

They like sand and sea, same like 'papa'. They play all day long and fall asleep around 19:00.

When we announce a new destination they already happy and start singing 'talon talon talon....' (Our family theme )

In the plane they play with toys we bring for them, or they play 'colouring'. Same when we travel by train.

A whole bag full with their 'things' accompanies us while we travel. Keeps them busy and quiet.

Depends on the time we travel but we like to make them tired/sleepy before the long haul trips, flights late afternoon or evening are best.

When they were very young, holding them close keeps the stress and fear away. They never cried on trips long or short.

Only thing 'bad' is that i gave them the travel bug for the rest of their lives.

Private time is after 20:00 when they are vast asleep.

And weekends we go out to dinner/movie or other things we like to do as a couple, but always after at least 17:00.

The 'babysitter' is my sister in law. They know her like a second mother, so absolutely no problems.

Samui is net the greatest place for kids but what is when you exclude the 'club meds' and disneylands.

As long as they are able to play it is fine.

[ChangMaiSausage]

Babysitter required for three weeks in April (Samui)

Dont think anyone will agree on the subject you either like it or lump it and move to another location but childeren will always be near, planes, trains ......

[t.s]

Oh sure, their crying and general noise annoys me at times, so I am annoyed, I put on the headphones or move my body elsewhere. No problem. Kids make noise, it is a fact and we must deal with it.

BABIES HAVE THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL

I'm sure parents can do with their children what they please, that is their choice and to some extent their right.

HOWEVER: As parents, they need to understand that many long haul holiday destinations are not the same as back home with regard to safety standards whether we are considering hotel bedroom wiring or food hygiene at the hotel buffet or street stall or beach ice cream vendor (think refrozen yesterdays goods). Is it right that the children are exposed to these risks? Yes, I'm sure many parents will jump on this post saying that they do take care, watch out, check this and tell the kids to be careful of that, but the headlines report year on year of holiday deaths due to parents not being able to watch junior 24/7. Accidents happen.

About an hour ago I read about a Canadian girl that died here in a pool side accident, I remember reading about an electric shock killing a European boy on Phuket last year I think playing with his computer game in the hotel bedroom, where the parents consider him in a place of safety.

I would suggest that small children, and let's include babies, can travel anywhere as we as a species have survived some 20,000 years since coming down from the trees eating semi rotten food we find and avoiding wild beasts. However during that time many of our offspring did not survive. They did die through eating the wrong sort of red berry from the bushes, they were eaten by tigers or suffered a fatal snake bites because they did not know better themselves, they might be more % brain then adults but they have no experiance to protect themselves. Protection is the sole task of a parent, the child might enjoy the beach on the islands - but is it really worth it?

Even a minor bout of diarrhea that would cause a few days discomfort to an adult can be really scary for a kid, even life threatening. Tropical sun burn for a young child from North America or Europe that is not exposed to the sun much during the Northern Hemisphere winter could be roasted out here. I saw a young Russian child in Tesco a short time ago who's face and arms were glowing bright red. Skin Cancer?

These facts added to the long haul flight in econnomy class where your screaming brat is the most unwelcome thing on the whole plane including reheated meals and the smelly backpacker scratching his groin.

Parents have an implicit duty of care to their children - it is a pity they only consider the family qudous of a long haul holiday and not the real life risks they are taking on board when they step off the plane.

im with you, i am not taking the plastic off my daughter until she is 10.

[HomeisThai]

I do think Haad rin/chaweng and certain areas in Phuket arent suitable for kids and this year I saw quite a few kiddies in Haad rin...its like taking your kids to Falaraki or San Antonio in Ibiza. not really the right setting for children to see IMO.

I dunno its peoples choices but I dont think kiddies (under 5's esp)who arent used to the intense heat should be taken to certain places, esp in its hottest seasons, it dangerous for a start heat wise let alone anything else. I think if a kids brought up in Asia's heat day in day out thats different because they are used to it.

Im also not sure about backpacking around for months with young kids...but each to their own and all that jazz.

Edited February 25, 2008 by HomeisThai

[mssabai]

I think it's quite sad Mark that you obviously do not have any good memories of holidaying with your parents when you were young. I think it is a great thing when children are able to experience different cultures and customs just as their parents can. I think that it enriches the child and opens up their world ensuring that they do not grow up thinking their culture, language and customs is the only one. I only ever went on holiday in Europe when I was younger but still have some brilliant memories - watching the bulls running through the Galiere when I was 5 for example, or staying in a house with 20 of my extended family in Italian lakes. Quite often these holidays would not have been as easy as holidaying is here in Samui. We would often camp, get bitten by many mozzies, get sunburnt, get rained on etc. But it is about having the experience AS A FAMILY - whether good or an absolute disaster as some holidays were!

I am not sure where you are from - possibly the states - which has a similar attitude to kids as the prevalent attitude in the UK. Kids are treated as separate beings...I am almost expecting you to trot out "kids should be seen and not heard" in fact. When you travel in other countries in Europe and Asia, you see that children are not treated like this. In Italy it is very common to see kids out with their parents at 11pm eating dinner, and what is more surprising is that these children are usually impeccably behaved (unlike children in England on the rare occasions that they are taken out). The same in Thailand...children spend most of their time with their family - instead of being shipped off to child minders and babysitters, and this I believe, has a positive impact on their behaviour.

And Susie, I do actually agree with your overall argument, I can see that it is good to ensure that you spend quality time with your partner away from the kids, however I cannot believe that you would take the once yearly holiday in which to do this. Maybe I read your message wrong, but in my opinion if you can only afford / have the time to go on holiday once a year, then this should be with your children. Taking additional holidays on your own is fine - but completely banning children from holidays just seems crazy.

[trader1]

So far have brought my children 10-11 times for holidays in thailand. First one was when eldest was 6 months. Went to a hill tribe village outside chiang mai - she loved seeing the elephants, loved the hotel swimming pool even more. Loved all the attention she got from Thai people telling her how cute she was. Got sick, got better.

As the children reached around 4-7 years old they started to listen to Buddhist talks, something hard to find outside of thailand.

Now the eldest is 19 and at university in home country but still hopes to visit thailand soon.

[Mark Wolfe]

I think it's quite sad Mark that you obviously do not have any good memories of holidaying with your parents when you were young. ... but still have some brilliant memories when I was 5 for example

I have been talking about young kids, under five. I have lots of memories of travel with the folks, but that's because we went when I was old enough to experience the places as a young adult and my brain was matured enough to recall events.

Trader 1...Here's to you:

So far have brought my children 10-11 times for holidays in our town. First one was when eldest was 6 months. Went to a hill outside the distillery to a hotel- she loved seeing the dogs playing, loved the hotel swimming pool even more. Loved all the attention she got from staff telling her how cute she was. Got sick, got better.

As the children reached around 4-7 years old they started to listen to TV evangelists, something hard to find on our TV at home.

Now the eldest is 19 and at university in another county but still hopes to visit the old hill hotel soon.

For a six-month old, it's all the same....The London Zoo or the snail in your garden; the swimming pool in town or the one in Bali...a toddler will have a ball everywhere.

It's the PARENTS who imbue insights into what the kids absorb that are in fact not present.

The PARENTS are old enough to process the information on Buddhism or an elephant in Thailand and what it means; the child doesn't even begin to understand this. So the PARENT transfers its sense of cultural impact or wonderment to the child.

YOU see the Jatukam Ramethep amulet and think of the belief/superstition of how it can ward off bad happenings, or that the "legend" based on the Great Stupa at Nakhon Si Thammarat is a fabrication, or whatever.

THE BABY sees a bauble, a little doll behind plastic, to play with. Nothing more, no deeper than that.

"My four-year-old has been discussing the differences between Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism and we were mulling over the Mahasaṃghikas and whether the split was before or after the Third Council..."

I think not.

[koheesti]

100% right on the money Mark. Although I'm sure someone will try to deny it.

[sayitaintso]

"My four-year-old has been discussing the differences between Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism and we were mulling over the Mahasaṃghikas and whether the split was before or after the Third Council..."

<deleted>?

[Eric1949]

So far have brought my children 10-11 times for holidays in thailand. First one was when eldest was 6 months. Went to a hill tribe village outside chiang mai - she loved seeing the elephants, loved the hotel swimming pool even more. Loved all the attention she got from Thai people telling her how cute she was. Got sick, got better.

As the children reached around 4-7 years old they started to listen to Buddhist talks, something hard to find outside of thailand.

Now the eldest is 19 and at university in home country but still hopes to visit thailand soon.

Sorry the more I read this thread convinces me that 3rd world countries are not western baby friendly, food, mozzies, public toilets or the temperature etc

[Boo]

^^So easy soultion, don't bring your children ^^

[Eric1949]

^^So easy soultion, don't bring your children ^^

Hey Boo, my sons can bring themselves, the're 25, 28 and 30 YEARS.

[Boo]

[brizzle]

Sorry the more I read this thread convinces me that 3rd world countries are not western baby friendly, food, mozzies, public toilets or the temperature etc

[/quote

... and the more I read this thread convinces me that when it comes to kids certain adults behave ...well...just like children.

No offence meant to any children reading of course!