Time To Put The "thai University Degrees Are Worthless" Generalization To Bed...

[endure]

I would say the only glaring weakness that many Thai university grads have is that their English language skills are often not up to par. This is usually taken care of after an intensive English course before entering a university overseas. Jbowman, thanks for bringing up the topic. I am one of the many foreign students studying at a Thai university, and I have had only good experiences so far. Actually, the only negativity concerning this subject that I have witnessed is on this forum and Ajarn.com. Many people who have no direct experience in a good program here don't know what they are talking about.

I live near a university in the UK that has lots of Thai grad students. By and large when they arrive their English could best be described as crap but the necessity of coping in English day to day gets most of them up tp speed fairly quickly although there is always that little group that won't make the effort. Shame because they miss out on a lot of stuff that the UK has to offer.

[aussiestyle1983]

Mr Bowman is totally correct: Julliard and Eastman have been some of the finest schools of applied music in the world since I married my wife in 1965. In the world.

Mr. Bowman is also correct that if we cannot somehow, anyhow, prove what we say about "all Thai uni degrees" or even about "almost all undergraduate degrees in Thailand" then we should stop singing the chorus.

If that makes him correct, then the people who say Thai degrees and universities are useless are also correct unless people can proove otherwise

[aussiestyle1983]

Looks like a decent uni if music is your thing. How about some stats about Thai students getting business, engineering, medical, law, etc. scholarships. I'd been keen to know

Decent....lol Yeah its not bad. I've heard that MIT is an ok place to major in physics as well. Not great, but not bad either...

And how many Thai Physics majors that you know of and that you can use to back up your positive outlook on Thai unis have gone on to grad school at MIT?

So far you have only given us the example of 5 Music grads going on to Juilliard. I don't recal any other stats?

[meandwi]

This girl graduated from Juilliard. I think she is Thai?

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...endid=151297980

[aussiestyle1983]

This girl graduated from Juilliard. I think she is Thai?

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...endid=151297980

I think she is Filipino.

[jbowman1993]

Looks like a decent uni if music is your thing. How about some stats about Thai students getting business, engineering, medical, law, etc. scholarships. I'd been keen to know

Decent....lol Yeah its not bad. I've heard that MIT is an ok place to major in physics as well. Not great, but not bad either...

And how many Thai Physics majors that you know of and that you can use to back up your positive outlook on Thai unis have gone on to grad school at MIT?

So far you have only given us the example of 5 Music grads going on to Juilliard. I don't recal any other stats?

Why do I have to provide stats? The only point I'm arguing is that not all Thai programs and not all Thai students are crap. My 5 examples are from my direct experience. Those 5 are enough to prove my point. We can assume that I am not the only decent teacher in LOS, and so the number is most likely quite a bit higher than 5.

I'm not sure what I did to irritate your sensiblities, but I don't think I've said anything that isn't pretty much on the mark. The reason I don't cite examples outside my area of expertise is that They are outside my area of expertise. If you want information on business, physics, engineering, etc. you need to ask someone in those fields, teaching at Thai universities, who would have direct knowledge in that regard. In other words, stop with the veiled hostility and sarcasm, its wasted on me.

Edited February 26, 2008 by jbowman1993

[aussiestyle1983]

Looks like a decent uni if music is your thing. How about some stats about Thai students getting business, engineering, medical, law, etc. scholarships. I'd been keen to know

Decent....lol Yeah its not bad. I've heard that MIT is an ok place to major in physics as well. Not great, but not bad either...

And how many Thai Physics majors that you know of and that you can use to back up your positive outlook on Thai unis have gone on to grad school at MIT?

So far you have only given us the example of 5 Music grads going on to Juilliard. I don't recal any other stats?

Why do I have to provide stats? The only point I'm arguing is that not all Thai programs and not all Thai students are crap. My 5 examples are from my direct experience. Those 5 are enough to prove my point. We can assume that I am not the only decent teacher in LOS, and so the number is most likely quite a bit higher than 5.

I'm not sure what I did to irritate your sensiblities, but I don't think I've said anything that isn't pretty much on the mark. The reason I don't cite examples outside my area of expertise is that They are outside my area of expertise. If you want information on business, physics, engineering, etc. you need to ask someone in those fields, teaching at Thai universities, who would have direct knowledge in that regard. In other words, stop with the veiled hostility and sarcasm, its wasted on me.

There's no need to get all hypocritical now. I was only asking you to provide stats to "back up" what you said, just like how you asked anyone who was arguing against you to "back up" their statements. there is no need to get all angry mate, I was just simply asking you to do the same thing that you were asking others to do. I guess after reading that you think your sample of 5 students is representative enough of the population to claim that not all Thai universities are bad. I'm sure there are even hundreds of students that go on from each uni to do marvelous things, but there are most likely thousands that don't. All I'm suggesting that 5 students isn't even enough to proove that your university isn't bad. I don't know what I did to get you all uptight, but it seemed that you were irritated from the very begining by basically saying that you were basically sick of hearing that all Thai universities and degrees were bad and useless. I was only, and still am suggesting that your example of 5 isn't even enought to get one university out of that catagory. Your university is probably good, proably the best; I'm only saying that your evidence to support your claim is not good enough. Like I have always said, I don't think that all Thai unis are bad. There is just very little evidence to suggest otherwise; and out of that evidence to suggest otherwise, half of it could be fudged figures by Thais trying to make themselves look good, eh? Try to enjoy the rest of your day mate. Have a cold one mate!

BTW, Has your thesis now change to not ALL Thai programmes and not ALL Thai students are bad, from not ALL Thai Uni's and not ALL Thai degres are bad? If so, I'd also agree with you on that too! No one has ever said that all Thai students are bad. Seems to me like you comitted the straw person fallacy and were caught out. Shame, shame, shame................

"So, this generalization pisses me off, and I want everyone to know about it" - Like I said, I'm not the one who's angry or even pissed off to say the least.

Edited February 26, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[jbowman1993]

Looks like a decent uni if music is your thing. How about some stats about Thai students getting business, engineering, medical, law, etc. scholarships. I'd been keen to know

Decent....lol Yeah its not bad. I've heard that MIT is an ok place to major in physics as well. Not great, but not bad either...

And how many Thai Physics majors that you know of and that you can use to back up your positive outlook on Thai unis have gone on to grad school at MIT?

So far you have only given us the example of 5 Music grads going on to Juilliard. I don't recal any other stats?

Why do I have to provide stats? The only point I'm arguing is that not all Thai programs and not all Thai students are crap. My 5 examples are from my direct experience. Those 5 are enough to prove my point. We can assume that I am not the only decent teacher in LOS, and so the number is most likely quite a bit higher than 5.

I'm not sure what I did to irritate your sensiblities, but I don't think I've said anything that isn't pretty much on the mark. The reason I don't cite examples outside my area of expertise is that They are outside my area of expertise. If you want information on business, physics, engineering, etc. you need to ask someone in those fields, teaching at Thai universities, who would have direct knowledge in that regard. In other words, stop with the veiled hostility and sarcasm, its wasted on me.

There's no need to get all hypocritical now. I was only asking you to provide stats to "back up" what you said, just like how you asked anyone who was arguing against you to "back up" their statements. there is no need to get all angry mate, I was just simply asking you to do the same thing that you were asking others to do. I guess after reading that you think your sample of 5 students is representative enough of the population to claim that not all Thai universities are bad. I'm sure there are even hundreds of students that go on from each uni to do marvelous things, but there are most likely thousands that don't. All I'm suggesting that 5 students isn't even enough to proove that your university isn't bad. I don't know what I did to get you all uptight, but it seemed that you were irritated from the very begining by basically saying that you were basically sick of hearing that all Thai universities and degrees were bad and useless. I was only, and still am suggesting that your example of 5 isn't even enought to get one university out of that catagory. Your university is probably good, proably the best; I'm only saying that your evidence to support your claim is not good enough. Like I have always said, I don't think that all Thai unis are bad. There is just very little evidence to suggest otherwise; and out of that evidence to suggest otherwise, half of it could be fudged figures by Thais trying to make themselves look good, eh? Try to enjoy the rest of your day mate. Have a cold one mate!

BTW, Has your thesis now change to not ALL Thai programmes and not ALL Thai students are bad, from not ALL Thai Uni's and not ALL Thai degres are bad? If so, I'd also agree with you on that too! No one has ever said that all Thai students are bad. Seems to me like you comitted the straw person fallacy and were caught out. Shame, shame, shame................

"So, this generalization pisses me off, and I want everyone to know about it" - Like I said, I'm not the one who's angry or even pissed off to say the least.

Ok, ok, you win. You intellectual d*ck is bigger than mine. I'll go quietly. Thanks to all who weighed in on this issue. Mr. Aussie seems hellbent on discrediting, challenging, or poopooing every comma and semicolon I write, so I'm going to let him have the thread. Good luck all.

Edited February 26, 2008 by jbowman1993

[PeaceBlondie]

bowman, it is your topic, and I hope you will stay. Uhm, you can ignore anybody you wish (including me!).

The burden of proof is on the persons who made the original statements, time and again, that all degrees from all Thai schools are worthless. Nobody has ever proved that assertion.

[jbowman1993]

In deference to the superior wisdom and virtue of some poster, I have decided to change my stance. In fact - All Thai Universities are sh*t, and so are their graduates. A Thai graduate couldn't find his or her collective ass with both hands and a map to guide them.

This forum breeds negativity that it is influencing me in a negative way, and I don' t like it. I don't much care for the majority of posters who can't seem to find anything positive to say. I'm going on a self imposed vacation, "and I don't expect I'll return. In fact, I mean not to. " (LOTR quote, so AS doesn't accuse me of intellectual dishonesty

Best.

[aussiestyle1983]

PB - I have to agree that the OP started this topic so it is the OP's responsibility to back up his or her argument.

jbowman - I hope you continue in here. I thought a debate is what you wanted after trying to comprehend your original post. Anyway, like I said many tuimes, i fully agree with all 4 of your arguments:

1 - Not all Thai unis are shit.

2- Not all Thai degrees are worthless.

especially your last 2;

3- Not all Thai programmes are shit.

4- Not all Thai students are bad.

I agree with all of the above.

I was just simply suggesting that your evidence to support that not ALL Thai unis and degrees are shit and worthless needed more backing up. I agree with your statements but I can not back them up myself. In fact, I'm guessing that there is sadly more evidence or proof that most Thai unis are shit, even though I think about 10 - 20% of Thai unis might be worthy. Maybe the old Times or QS rankings of years gone by can proove that at one small point in time a thai uni or two was in the top 200 world uni's list. But, where are they now on the list?

Now Mr. or Ms. bowman, can you back up your last two arguments in which you suggested that;

"All Thai Universities are sh*t, and so are their graduates. A Thai graduate couldn't find his or her collective ass with both hands and a map to guide them." ?

Edited February 26, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[toptuan]

I can't help but think of the phrase "Thou protesteth too much..." in reference to the OP.

OK, now that everyone has pooled their ignorance into this hearsay and anecdotal thread...here's the hard data.

Notice how Thailand's two top universities (the "Harvard" and "Yale" of Thailand), Chula and Kasetsart, score abysmally low compared to "top" universities in developed countries. Check out how many other third-world countries' universities outrank them. This is why many graduates of Thai universities who seek advanced degrees in Australia (who knows Thailand only too well) have to repeat their undergrad degrees before entering the advanced programs.

Read it and weep. You can close the thread now.

Edited February 26, 2008 by toptuan

[aussiestyle1983]

Sad proof that I was partly right when I said it would be easier to proove that Thai uni's are shit

In regards to that list, Prince of Songkla is the number 1 Thai uni? <deleted>? Just goes to show. I was under the impression from most Thais that Thammasat and Chula, followed by Kaset were the top 3. That list in itself is rather surprising, some rankings of unis in other countries is not even similar to the rankings does by other ranking sources. Anyway, Good find toptuan, very interesting.

Edited February 26, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[PeaceBlondie]

I have not read the list yet, but it doesn't prove that all Thai degrees are worthless. My uni was third rate, but nobody challenges it (unless I tried to teach in an international school, since it's not an education major). The website says its criteria are web-based. That"s debatable.

Nobody is saying that every uni in Thailand is Ivy League, Oxbridge, etc. Neither is every uni in YOUR native country. As I understand the OP, bowman was asking us not to say that all Thai degrees are worthless. He is right.

[toptuan]

"My mind's made up...don't confuse me with the facts."

[aussiestyle1983]

I was never disagreeing with bowmans claim that all thai uni's are not worthless, I was agreeing with him. I just suggested his example of 5 students wasn't enough to proove the credibility of a aprticular uni. If he didn't use that example to begin with I wouldn't have bothered posting in here because I agree with his statement. I just felt like suggesting that although I and many others might agree with him, the ones that don't would laught at his example of 5 students, especially with a minnow major such as music in focus.

[Loaded]

yeh, yeh, yeh, but in the West the students don't wear sexy black skirts and tight white blouses size XXXS. IMO far more important than academic rankings.

[Heemak]

Wow, you guys are hardcore. I better hire a research staff before I post anything.

In any event, those results that Toptuan posted look seriouly suspect. Here is the most generally accepted world rankings.

From

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/

http://www.topuniversities.com/ (extension of THES List)

2007 Results

Chulalongkorn - 223

Mahidol University - 284

Chiang Mai University and Kasetsart U are listed in the 401-500 group, as those schools are not ranked numerically.

Seems to be more accurate, imo.

[toptuan]

Wow, you guys are hardcore. I better hire a research staff before I post anything.

In any event, those results that Toptuan posted look seriouly suspect. Here is the most generally accepted world rankings.

From

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/

http://www.topuniversities.com/ (extension of THES List)

2007 Results

Chulalongkorn - 223

Mahidol University - 284

Chiang Mai University and Kasetsart U are listed in the 401-500 group, as those schools are not ranked numerically.

Seems to be more accurate, imo.

Have you worked your way through the ranking criteria, Heemy Boy, before you discredit the site? I'll work on yours.

[makavelithedon]

I think any fair minded person that surfs the boards and has been here a fair time would have come to the conclusion that some are very decent and have very good programmes and others leave a lot to be desired!

I spoke to a Harvard educated Thai professor a few months ago on the board of just about every educational work group committe you could think of in Thailand.

He said that all he saw at his university in Thailand (where he's been for a number of years) and the universities of committee colleagues, was falling standards year in year out and yes, if wanted -degrees that could be easily bought by half assed comittment and a good attendance record! The graduates didn't care for anything bar the certificate.

Make of it what you will just thought it might add something to the discussion.

Mak