Buying A Tractor

[Maizefarmer]

Thanks all.

I think I've got it clear now.

Sounds like I had the speeds about right & it felt right.

I'll post some close ups of the tractor next time im home.

Sounds like this one is a bit different to usual.

Anyone got any leads where to find a manual for such a gray market tractor ?

MF, got any pics of you water pump on a 3 point hitch ?

I have a manual for the Western/European market (English) - you'll have to wait till I get back to Thailand end of next week.

Putting all the "this gear & that gear" talk aside - yes, you are right: no different to driving a car - put it in gear, and if it feels right the chances are it is going to be right. Remember the pto 540 speed is a rated speed i.e. the pto seldom actaully turns at that speed - it spends its time within a +/-15% range of that speed, no mattter what gear or rpm you are working in - so do just as you said - if it feels right chances are it is right.

Below is are some pump pics

1) a pto pump (this example is good for about 120 ton p/hour @ 6bar and needs around 90hp - a bit big for your tractor but can easily put a smaller one together)

2) 3 pics of another type of pto pump (used to lift water from rivers & irrigation canals - good for over 1000 ton per/hour but the pressure is only around 0,5bar - again, needs around 75 - 90hp

3) the last 2 pics are what I use to power the sprinklers - no good for lifting from a river if the height is any more than around - 3meters - well, you can the the efficiency drops dramatically and you then loose a lot of the ouput pressure. Its a 240hp 6cylinder Catapiller, all things setup proper its good for 260 - 440 tons per hour @ 5 -bar - 8bar

[Saiyan]

4wd cutting grass? come on! Why? I'm sure you're cutting a field that is on steep slope? Are you driving at a 90 degree slope?

Not too suprised at your coments judging by some of your previous posts. Not even your much larger Ford tractor can cut at 90 degrees. It seems you have far more respect for the much smaller and lighter Kubotor tractor in this case. The Kubotor tractor will spin it's wheels sometimes especialy in reverse on flat ground. The reason why I use 4WD. I was sharing my experience and advise with the OP and certainly did not invite sarcasm. R.Sole.

[Gary A]

My Yanmar Tachometer has a big arrow at 2,500 RPM that says "Rated power". This is maximum horsepower and at his point the 540 PTO is running 540 RPM. I was working today and looked at the PTO shifter. The higher speed is 785 RPM. Here are the specs for my little tractor;

Brand Yanmar

Model EF312T

Engine Capacity (cc.) 1,496

Engine Model 3TNV84

Horse Power/RPM. 30.5/2500

Fuel Tank (L.) 28

Forward-Speed (km./hr.) 1.29-22.5

Backward-Speed (km./hr.) 1.26-22.1

Transmission Magic Synchromesh Reverser

Forward Speed 8 Speed

Backward-Speed 8 Speed

PTO-Speed 540-785

Clutch Dry 1 Plate

Brake Disc Brake

Steering Power

Hydraulic Position Control

3-Point Hitch Category I

Front Wheel Size 7-14

Rear Wheel Size 11.2-24

Length (Front Bumper-Rear Ti 2,850

Width (Rear Tire L-R) mm. 1,025-1,105

Height (mm.) 1,365

Wheel Base (Front-Rear) m 1,600

Clearance (mm.) 350

Turn Circle (m.) 2.2

Weight (kg.) 920

I use the dozer blade a lot and the main reason I bought the Yanmar is the Synchromesh transmission. I can go forward or backward with just the steering column shifter. Up is forward and down is backward. No gear grinding and very smooth.

[Pond Life]

MF,

The PTO Pump, is that a gearbox its bolted to ?

If so what do you recon the rpm of the pump is when the PTO is doing 540 ?

If I set my angles up correctly on the tiller & fit the depth control wheels. Do I lower the tiller all the way down & the wheels support the weight or just or lower it until the depth control wheels just contact the ground ?

Salyan,

I've been using 4WD a lot, especialy on hard uneven ground, it seems to lift a wheel very easily, maybe its the short wheelbase & light weight, anyway the 4WD usualy gets it going, if not, standing on the diff lock for a few seconds always does.

GaryA,

Sounds similar to mine, I've got the steering column Fwd/Rev, but its definatly mechanical & involves a bit of grinding sometimes.

Mine has a 4 ratio lever to the left of the seat & another 4 on another column shift.

Then theres another shifter for the pto with 4 options.

Im try in to teach my worker how to drive it, he's never driven a car before & is struggling to cope with just the 2 column shifts, I havnt mentioned the other 2 yet !

Thanks all

[mikejphuket]

A long time back I asked some questions here on how, where to buy a used Kubota Tractor.

So now I've done it, I'd like to share the info in case it's useful to anyone else.

Someone advised me that (Wipawadi) Rangsit Rd in Bangkok was the place,

so I jumped in a taxi & headed out past Don Muang Airport as instructed.

Found lots of places selling heavy machinery, but not to many Kubota's.

Then found a place that had about 50 sitting on the lot, plus stacks (literaly) of attachments.

This place is several km past the airport (heading North) on the right very close to Tesco Lotus.

I was helped by a young guy who spoke excellant english, he is the son of the owners & runs the store on saturdays as he's at university the rest of the week.

The model I was looking for, L3400 4WD, wasnt available & as it turns out, out of my budget.

But they did have several "Sunshine ZL1-20 4WD" which seemed to fit the ticket.

The price was 155,000 baht. All tractors of that model were the same price, regardless of condition.

Luckily for me an old guy who works there says "come & look round the back , we just had a new arrival & its in Very good nick".

Sure enough, same model but in far better condition, same price !

So I bought it, plus a front loader bucket 48 k, rototiller 15 k, rear grass cutter 11 k.

All to be put on a truck & delivered to Pai, Mae Hongson for 17,500.

It was delivered without any problems & runs like a dream.

I did a little bit of internet research later, I presumed it was 20 hp, but looks like its 26 hp.

I highly recomend this company, dont know the name, but if you follow the directions it would be hard to miss, just look out for lots of orange tractors & attachments.

I hope this info is useful, Thanks to the people who pointed me in the right direction.

Hi Pond Life,

After spending day one on my land with a few labourers doing site prep for the work camp I can quickly see the use of a tractors like yours. I just spent a while trying to find model info on the web with little success- Siam Kubota's web site was going nowhere for me. I would be very interested in getting a back hoe attachment fitted and am wondering if they are made for your model of tractor and if you saw when you made your purchase.

All the best, Mike

[Pond Life]

I think like most tractor implements, back hoe's are not made specific to a model of tractor, but to fit a given category of 3 point hitch & PTO. If youve got a cat 1 hitch, any back hoe made for a cat 1 hitch will fit. I think.

When I was researching the tractor i was interested in a back hoe but decided against it, 1. to expensive, 2. if you want to dig a trench you have to position the tractor, get out, get in the back hoe seat, dig a bit, get out, get in, move get out get in, a pain in the arse.

I didnt see any back hoe's in the yard i visited in Bangkok.

Another option, my mate Dave the builder has a "mini macro", its got a back hoe style bucket, mounted on tracks, it rotates 360 deg & its got a little bulldozer blade on the front, he bought it in Chiang Mai 18 months ago for 160,000 B, second hand from Japan. I'd guess in Bangkok it would be a fair bit cheaper. Disadvantage, its incredibly slow over the ground.

I hope that helps.

[mikejphuket]

I think like most tractor implements, back hoe's are not made specific to a model of tractor, but to fit a given category of 3 point hitch & PTO. If youve got a cat 1 hitch, any back hoe made for a cat 1 hitch will fit. I think.

When I was researching the tractor i was interested in a back hoe but decided against it, 1. to expensive, 2. if you want to dig a trench you have to position the tractor, get out, get in the back hoe seat, dig a bit, get out, get in, move get out get in, a pain in the arse.

I didnt see any back hoe's in the yard i visited in Bangkok.

Another option, my mate Dave the builder has a "mini macro", its got a back hoe style bucket, mounted on tracks, it rotates 360 deg & its got a little bulldozer blade on the front, he bought it in Chiang Mai 18 months ago for 160,000 B, second hand from Japan. I'd guess in Bangkok it would be a fair bit cheaper. Disadvantage, its incredibly slow over the ground.

I hope that helps.

Thanks for that- more very useful info. i was wondering how to rotate neck to see "hoe" in operation as not easy for me. The mini-macro sounds more like I might be looking for as speed is not an issue. Any further info from any one out there will be much appreciated.

[Maizefarmer]

MF,

The PTO Pump, is that a gearbox its bolted to ?

If so what do you recon the rpm of the pump is when the PTO is doing 540 ?

If I set my angles up correctly on the tiller & fit the depth control wheels. Do I lower the tiller all the way down & the wheels support the weight or just or lower it until the depth control wheels just contact the ground ?

Salyan,

I've been using 4WD a lot, especialy on hard uneven ground, it seems to lift a wheel very easily, maybe its the short wheelbase & light weight, anyway the 4WD usualy gets it going, if not, standing on the diff lock for a few seconds always does.

GaryA,

Sounds similar to mine, I've got the steering column Fwd/Rev, but its definatly mechanical & involves a bit of grinding sometimes.

Mine has a 4 ratio lever to the left of the seat & another 4 on another column shift.

Then theres another shifter for the pto with 4 options.

Im try in to teach my worker how to drive it, he's never driven a car before & is struggling to cope with just the 2 column shifts, I havnt mentioned the other 2 yet !

Thanks all

Pond Life

What speed should the pump be if you are running it off your 540rpm tractor pto?

It should be whatever speed the manufacturer reccomends the pump to be run at - and this is where a number of points have to be kept in mind, but your question raises a whole bunch of relivant issues that you are going to have to consider if you want to spend your hard earned funds correctly and have the pump doing the job you want it to do - so I'll run theorugh the issues here and now and get them out the way.

Let me to explain: there are very few pump manufacturers and very agricultural pumps that are designed to run at 540rpm and deliver the pressure & volume required for most irrigation duties (e.g. long throw or impact sprinklers) - so a gearbox is added almost always added to increase the pto output speed of 540 (or 1000rpm - depending on what the tractor pto is rated at) to that of the pump's rated speed. In the case of the pump in the photo, I usualy drive it off the front hitch/pto on a New Holland 8970 - which has a 540/560 & 1000rpm pto (but set @ 1000rpm), the gearbox on the pump takes the pump rpm up to 1800. It is a 1: 1,8 ratio box on the pump - allowing the tractor engine to be run at right at the bottom end of its working rpm/torque range (to save fuel).

Okay - so when you ask what speed I recomend you run the pump at when your tractor pto is turning at 540rpm, what you need to do is take a look at the pump casing (of whatever ever pump you have, or intend to purchase), and on it somewhere you will find an small aluminium/or stainless steel plate that will have 2, or possibly 3 sets of figures stamped on it:

1) the pumps rated rpm (this will be the speed at which the pump should run to achieve max efficiency).

2) alongside the given rpm figure (or underneath it) will be the second figure - which will be the volume of water it will pump at the above rpm - which will more than likely be expressed as m3 p/hour (cubic meters per hour which - a cubic meter is 1 ton or 1000litres) or g/ p/min (Gallons per minute). Do not exceed the max rated rpm - its a quick way to fxxx up a pump.

3) the 3rd figure often, but not always supplied, wil be the hp required to turn to pump at its rated rpm. - and in your case this is your primary consideration.

If there is no aluminium/stainless plate riveted to the pump body/frame, then these figures will be cast into the pump casing - usualy found located on the side of the impeller casing , or on the top of the bearing cover.

So, you are almost certainly going to have to construct a belt & pully type gearbox to convert the 540rpm pto pseed into whatever the rated pump speed is, which is almost certainly going to be higher than the pto speed - and this is where the same mistakes are made by farming folk time and time again in Thailand. I'll run through them here briefly - keep the following in mind and you will avoid these problems if/when you decide to construct your own belt pulley gearbox:

1) Farmers often select pumps that are rated at higher horsepower than their small/medium tractor can deliver, thinking that all they have to do is then run the pump slower so that not so much hp is required. While that is true to a point, unfortuneatly the relationship between pump rpm and volume/pressure is not linear - and using the pump at say, an rpm of about 15% - 20% less (to save on the hp requirement), may well result in an acceptable volume drop of about 10% - 20%, but the pressure drop in many cases will be as much as, or over 50%! - and when they get fedup with this and decide to increase the tractor engine rpm (above the usualy 220 - 2400rpm that most small/medium tractors are designed to work at!!), they find they initialy get the pressure the pump is rated for, but because the tratcor engine can't deliver the required torque, the volume starts to drop, and in many cases that drop can be down to about 10% - 15% of what the pump is capable of. Then the pump starts "hunting" -like an auto-throttle trying to maintain a set speed and the pump volume/pressure starts variying up & down/high & low every minute or so - one moment the sprinkler(s) are running fine, they next they are just drippling water.

2) go into any ag store to select a pump and theres a good chance you'll get asked "how many inches?" - meaning what size discharge diameter are you wanting? I don't why/how this has come about in Thailand, but a lot of Thai farming folk think about pump performance in terms of pump discharge/outlet diameter, and while there is indeed a relationship to some extent, it seldom results in the correct pump being chosen.

Okay, now the relivancy of all this in the context of the question you asked - what speed to run the pump at if your pto is running at 540 rpm?

In short, you run the pump at whatever speed the pump manufacturer has stamped ont he side of the pump. However, as its all going to be through a gearbox driven by your tractor, then the first thing you need to bare in mind is the max hp you have a valible from your tractor engine, and minus from that about 10% as a "safety margin". Why/How? - because, unless the pump is also rated to turn at the same rpm as the pto shaft (i.e. 540rpm) the gearbox used to get the ratio up to the pump rpm is going to result in full, or close to full engine torque being used, and as that will be to turn 540rpm into say 1200 or 2800rpm (typical centrifugal pump speeds as used in Thailand by farmers never exceed 3000 - 3600rpm and are usualy in the 1800rpm - 2200rpm speed), the mechanical relationship between rpm/power/torque is going to play a big role. You now the old mechanical equation - double the rpm then the torque will halve, half the rpm the torque will double. That's an over simplification of the subject, but it suffices for the purpose of these comments.

In my experiance if choose a pump to be driven by a 540rpm tractor pto, and then through a gearbox (which you are going to have to use) - so long as you keep about 10% of the tractors hp in reserve , you are not going to run into problems. This will give you lots of extra flexability in choice and selection of pump, and will open up to you a load more pump rpm and volume and pressure ratings than you would otherwise be able to use.

Now - consider your required Volume and Pressure - and as you have not shared with me any info about how this pump is going to be used, I can't comment whether you should consider volume or pressure first - all I can say is you are going to have to find a balance between the 2 thats suits your requirements - like torque and hp, if you double the volume the pressure will halve at the same pump rpm e.g. if you need this pump to drive sprinklers that are each rated for x cubic meters per hour at y pressure, by adding 1 extra sprinkler the result will be the presure at the output of the 2 spinklers will drop to halve what it was with one sprinkler (and a 1/3 of one sprinkler if 3 sprinklers are used) - but the total volume delivered by the pump wil remain the same if you do not increase it. Conversly, if you double the pressure at the pump output, the volume output will halve - again, so long as the pump rpm stays the same - which it will if you have kept that 10% hp in reserve.

Anyhow, think I have said enough - but I hope it helps to put the whole subject of "what pump speed should I use" into its correct context. You are to have to build a gearbox and may advise to you is to use belts and choose pulleys (both commonly availible from all good local ag and hardware supply stores in various pulley sizes and belt diameters), to get the correct drive ratio. The advantage of belts and pulleys is that they are easily and cheaply changed for get different ratios at any later date if decide to change either the pump or tractor.

In summary: choose whatever pump you want, running at whatever speed you want - just make sure it's power requirement does not exceed around 90% of that which the tractor engine can deliver, and you will have lots of scope in both choice of pump type, and pressure and volume.

Your next question: do you allow the tiller weight to be taken up on the rear tiller wheels?

The answer is yes - the 2 lower 3 point hitch extensions at the rear of the tractor are used to support/control the height and straightness of the front of the tiller. the 2 rear wheel are to support the rear of the tiller. The set-up should be so that the tiller is parrell to the ground, and then you use the top extension on the 3/point hitch to adjust the angle at which the tiller blades "attack" the soil.

As for 4WD - heres my 2cents worth. Its a light tractor and will skid/slipp around a lot - especially if the soil is wet or its doing heavy draught work: keep it in 4WD and keep the diff lock off unless it is required - especially if you are teaching somone how to use your tractor (learner drivers have a habit of taken shortcuts on headland turns, they'll lock the rear brake on whichever side they are turning into and spin the tratcor around on its own axis, while thats okay on hard soil where the front wheels will easily slip, in damp soil where they will grip, it will load up the transfer box). So keep 4WD on all the time for best traction - but only use DiffLock when required.

Good luck.

MF

Edited March 15, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[Badbanker]

Backhoes for Cat 1 tractors are available in the US but are about USD3-5,000!  If you include the cost of transportation to Thailand and taxes and and and it is cheaper to buy a used mini hydraulic excavators!

At JSSR I have seen a lot of mini hydraulic excavators going at between 100-200k that are the same cost as importing a new 3 point Backhoe.  

For this money you get another piece of plant that you may be able to rent out and you get a real hoe with great break out power.  3 point hitch tractor backhoes are no where near as strong as a real mini excavator.

BB

[Pond Life]

Thanks MF,

That all made sense.

If & when I put a pump together it will be used to fill a tank, so pressure wont be to important as long as it easily overcomes the head. I'd be more interested in max volume so I can run the engine for the shortest time possible.

Have you noticed that Thai's love to run Diesels at idle (or below when its loaded).

I try to tell them its inefficient & screwing the engine, but

[Saiyan]

Another invaluable post. I've been thinking about a pump fitment, but every time I stand infront of all the pumps at the stores I decline the purchase only because I sense that I'm about to waste money. You have made every thing crystal clear not only with your knowledge but also in the way that you explain things. You truly are a great asset to this forum and I thank you for your patience (with most of us), your dedication and your time.

Best regards

[Maizefarmer]

Thank you

[Pond Life]

Ok, next question related to my new toy.

I bought the front loader partly with the idea of using it to make my access road a bit better in the rainy season.

I envisioned using it to dump stone on the track & then use the bucket, bulldozer style, to level it out.

After a bit of experimentation I've found it doesnt work very well as a bulldozer. it is after all a loader.

What would be best to use for leveling a dirt road, a bulldozer blade or a box scraper or something else ?

It would have to be rear mounted as removeing the loader looks like a pain in the arse & its to useful.

Preferably I would build it myself.

Anyone got any links to DIY farm machinery plans or pics ?

Thanks

[Maizefarmer]

No - it doesn't does it - and yes, tow it, do not try to push it (good thinking). You want something like in the pics below.

Off to the local hardware store to purchase some square tubing to make a rea 3point hitch triangular frame (just like you have on the tiller) - with a strong round down bar (so you adjust the scrape angle from left to right using a length of chain on each end of the blade to hold it at whatever angle you want - just like a road grader ) - then all you have to do is learn to weld!!

[Lickey]

PondLife, all you need to do with a front loader to level anything is just angle the bucket downwards on the heap of stone/gravel whatever and reverse your tractor, with a bit of practise you will see this makes a perfect job of things, any kind of angled blade will just push the material to one side,

Or for just cleaning ground, angle the bucket down 50degrees, perhaps lifting the front wheels off the ground and reverse, ok so you loose the steering but practise will make perfect, good luck, Lickey..

[Pond Life]

Thanks MF, that looks simpler than what I had in mind.

I learned to weld last year, partly from your recomendation to visit the Miller web site.

Lickey, I know what youre saying about using the bucket in reverse, I've tried it & it works fine for the loose stuff, but I think I also need to scrape off some of the old hard high points.

[rice555]

Hello Pond Life, nice little tractor, about the size I need. I use to use a Ford 1720 and a 1920 both with front end loaders and a 60" Kabota tiller, it had adjustable skids on each side, not gage wheels. Yours look more like a bed tiller - a few parts. The picture is out of a past issue of House Agriculture Magazine, doing beds for green onions up north. If you enlarge the picture enough, you can see his rates for tilling.

rice555

[Pond Life]

Thanks for the photo Rice.

Surprised to see the depth wheels at the side.

Judging by my frame the wheels will end up behind.

Anyone else got photo's of tillers with depth control wheels ?

[Gary A]

Thanks for the photo Rice.

Surprised to see the depth wheels at the side.

Judging by my frame the wheels will end up behind.

Anyone else got photo's of tillers with depth control wheels ?

I think that is a special set up for drainage purposes. Notice the disk blade on each side. The gage wheels follow the disk blades.

[Maizefarmer]

Pond Life - the frame on the tiller in the photo which is holding the rear wheels, is the same setup as you have on yours. Click on the photo to open it, and then click again once it has opened - and it should fill your whole screen - then you'll be able to see the detail better.

The sides discs are used as "ridgers" to push the soil in towards the bed more effectively than the tinwork on the side of the tiller - not essential but no harm in having them (I've never used them) and on most of the used tillers you get in Thailand there aren't brackets to mount the ridgers as they are seldom used in Korea and Japan (where most used tillers in Thailand come from).

[Pond Life]

Bugger !

Yep, you're right, zoomed in on the pic of my own tractor.

just goes to show what smoking does to your memory.

[Pond Life]

Can anyone recommend me a ballpark figure for tractor tire pressure,

Standard Ag style tires,

[Gary A]

Can anyone recommend me a ballpark figure for tractor tire pressure,

Standard Ag style tires,

I'm not sure either but I put 20 psi in the fronts and 15 psi in the rears. Years ago in the US on much bigger tractors 12 PSI was the norm for the rears.

[ilyushin]

Thanks for the post. I am in the market for a used tractor.

Looks like what I want.

Happy farming!

[Pond Life]

I've got another question for you farming folks about my tractor.

Just to remind you, its a second hand small 4WD Kubota.

No manual & most labels are in Japanese.

Below the seat, mounted on the rear axle, is a screw valve labeled open/close

Can anyone tell me what it does ?

Thanks

[slapout]

Pond life; When I saw your post and the pics, I laughed, not at you but at me for the simple answer I had in my mind. Its a weight adjustment for the seat suspension. hel_l I have no idea as to what it is for, cant read Jap, no manuel in English. Have you tried turning the knob full ccw or cw just to see what happens? When in doubt I just play with the controls and knobs until something changes or if not I figure they are broken or someone disconnected them. sorry for no helpful hints or ideas.

[ozzydom]

I've got another question for you farming folks about my tractor.

Just to remind you, its a second hand small 4WD Kubota.

No manual & most labels are in Japanese.

Below the seat, mounted on the rear axle, is a screw valve labeled open/close

Can anyone tell me what it does ?

Thanks

Is it a bostrum type air or hydraulic sprung seat , it looks a bit like a valve to adjust the seat suspension.

[Gary A]

I think you'll find that it is a speed control for your three point hitch or possibly the speed control for whatever hydraulic accessories you have.

[Pond Life]

Ozzy & Slap,

What have you been smoking ?

Gary,

I was wondering if it was a lock out for the 3 point hitch, so maybe we are on the right track.

Unfortunatly Im away from my toy for several wks so cant experiment.

Thanks all, any more suggestions welcome.

[Lickey]

I would think youve all looked at this Kubuta site, but will post anyway, hope it helps with specs ect if nothing else, Cheers, Lickey.

http://www.kubota.com/f/products/m4800_Specs.pdf