Running your overseas based business from thailand

[ChiangMaiThai]

In the past week, there have been various posts from a number of people related to the idea of running your overseas based business from Thailand. The scenerio is that you are in Thailand running the business back home i.e. making phone calls, meeting with people, sending business related e-mails, shipping product for those in the export business. However, you receive no pay in Thailand. You do not work for any Thai company. No one from abroad is paying you to come do work here. You employ no one in Thailand. It is your business from back home, which is simply being run from here. But obviously, you are not here purely as a tourist.

Now, the question is, what do you need to do this legally?

Can it be done on a tourist visa?

If not, will consulates grant you a non-immigration ( visa?

Even if it can be done legally on a tourist visa, will consulates readily grant a non-im b, preferably multiple entry?

Opinions vary, from 'if you do it on a tourist visa, you risk being blacklisted and kicked out of the country' to 'If you are receiving no pay here and employing no one here, then no problem even on a tourist visa' to 'you will be granted a non-im b visa to come run your business from Thailand no problem' to 'you can't receive a non-im ( visa unless you are working for a thai company'. So the issue seems less than clear.

So does anyone else have any more input to offer? And does anyone know the answer for sure or know who does? (Of course immigration is the obvious place to start, but I have found that the rules as they are written are not always how things work in practice and somehow I think if five different farangs went down to immigration and asked this same question, we'd have five different answers)

All responses welcome! I'm sure their are many of us who would like to live in Thailand and run the business back home.

[Indo-Siam]

1.  Visas are issued outside Thailand.   Policies for non-immigrant B vary from embassy to embassy.  Some places (such as honorary consuls - one in New Orleans comes to mind) virtullay give away one-year Class B's upon request and payment.  It is between you and your local Thai embassy to extract a one-year Class B.  Basically tell them that you are planning to start a company in Thailand, if you can verify via some extended research that your business plan is viable.  Then conduct your research forever, without reaching a conclusion.   Get that visa - preferably a one-year version.

2.  Upon arrival into Thailand, you will be issued a 90 day entry permit.  You now have 90 days free ride.  Carry on your business via telecommuting.  No one in Thai government has any problem with that.   Every 90 days, you will have to make a "visa run", to get a new entry permit.  Or you can use a dodgy service to send your passport on a trip without you (I do not advise this, but some people swear by it).  Make sure that you get a multiple-entry re-entry permit before departing on your first trip outside Thailand - so that your visa status remains valid.

3.  Virtually every serious businessman who comes to Thailand for a 30 day vacation spends some time checking up on his business back home.  That is what you will be doing - just at a more intense level.  The Thai government does not care.

4.  Forget work permit.  That only applies if you have an employer, that has a formal workplace address in Thailand.

5.  Without a work permit, you cannot get an extended entry permit.

6.  At the end of your first year, you will have to obtain another one-year visa - again, from an Embassy outside Thailand.  This is the first time that you may face complications - an embassy may be reluctant to issue back-to back Class B visas, with no sign of actual employment along the way.  Success will depend upon your creativity and charm.

Eveything I write above applies only if no aspect of your business activities involves customers or suppliers from inside Thailand.

If you flow significant money into a Thai bank account continuously, you might theoretically face income tax liability here.  But it would be very hard to even obtain a personal income tax registration card here, without a local employer.

The key sequence to understand - if you can get a one year Class B visa - which must be obtained outside Thailand - then issuance of a 90 day non-im entry permit upon arrival is automatic - they do not ask questions or think about it - the visa issued with the King's Garuda emblem on it directs that you be granted entry on non-im status.

Once you are here on a 90 day non-im entry permit, no else in Thailand has any say about your presence here - it has been allowed by the immigration gatekeepers, and no one else here has any right to challenge that.

Once you are here, working out of a hotel suite or apartment, with FAX, computer, handphone, etc., communicating exclusively with business contacts outside Thailand - that is no one else's business.  

Good luck.

Indo-Siam

[ChiangMaiThai]

Eveything I write above applies only if no aspect of your business activities involves customers or suppliers from inside Thailand.

Hi Indo Siam,

Thanks much for your thoughts and information. looking at the above quote, what about the debate that has been going on regarding exporters who have an import business back home. Can they run their business back home, doing what you said, speaking to customers, e-mailing etc. AND buy from suppliers in Thailand before shipping it all out? No invoices would be billed from Thailand. Maybe there would be a brochure or something which listed Thai contact info.

Would the above scenerio qualify one for a non-im b visa?

Would information you posted still hold true?

If not, what would you suggest?

Also, it sounds like you are saying that the non-immigration ( visa is granted depending on the situation and consulate more or less. When will you always absolutely receive a non-imm ( visa no matter what consulate you go to? (I'm assuming if working for a multinational here or something to that degree)

[ChiangMaiThai]

Hi Indo Siam,

In a follow up to the last post, can you explain the difference between a non-im ( visa and a work permit? DO they both allow you to do business?

[Morgan]

Hi Indo Siam Is it not a bit misleading to say once in country on your 90 non-imm no one has the right to challange you.

Cannot an immigration or police officer any where in Thai ask to see your passport and visa and if they think you are in breach of your

visa take action against you.

 Morgan.

[Indo-Siam]

If you are granted a 90 day non-immigrant entry permit, that is that.  If you are caught working without a work permit, then you have violated a work permit rule - not an immigration rule.

If you shoot someone, or deal drugs, or commit some other crime, then you face the consequences.  But these are not violations of a non-immigrant visa.

I suppose that if your passport is discovered to be fake - or your identity is falsified, then you are in a different category - you have entered the country illegally.

Responding to the work permit question - you need a work permit to work in a "regular job" here - meaning you have an employer, employer has a business location, employer pays you, and you have some sort of a structured job function.

If you are staying at a hotel, and walk into the hotel business center, and spend the entire day sending FAX'es, preparing and sending e-mail quoattaions, making sourcing phone calls, etc. - then some people on this board tell you that the "boys in brown" will be looking for you, to imprison or deport you.  I disagree 101%, and say this is perfectly acceptable.

Thai Police, and Labor Ministry, and Immigration have better things to do than pursue businessmen who are managing remote overseas activities, or searching for Thai bargains to export.

Some people will try to paint this as a very fine line - unless you are an "expert", you will not be able to tell where the line is - and vindictive Thai ladies will be poiised to swoop in and finger the hapless businessman who stumbles across this line to the police, who will immediately imprison him, or deport him.

My feeling is that this is rubbish.  If you are functioning here as a "virtual sole proprietor" - focused outside Thailand, or on shipping things out of Thailand - no Thai has any interest in bothering you.  You aren't even background noise.

I would venture to say that you could even become an impromptu employer - hiring some moto-taxi drivers to help you pack and load boxes for shipping - and the Labor Minister and Chief of Police would be happy to get out of your way.

You just don't want to be earning a regular paycheck here from a regular employer, doing a defineable structured job - without a work permit - which, by eligibility rules, automatically means that you had a non-immigrant visa to apply.

That's the "first affirmative" - now lets await the "first rebuttal".

Regards,

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

[george]

Steve, Thanks for your input.

I fully respect your opinions, but some of your advices are dangerous. I have been living here for 15 years, both in the private and official sector, and my experience of what you are allowed to do differs from youyrs.

Could you please point me to an url or printed text that certifies what you are saying.

[Indo-Siam]

George -

Nope - I have no reference.  I have only common sense.

I have a background in formal academic debate.  Formal debate is a truly ancient "sport".  Over the millenia, several common concepts have been internationally adopted in the debate field.    

One of those universals is theconcept of reductio ad absurdum.  See Reductio ad Absurdum

In this case, the way to demonstrate that the approach I have suggested is OK is to demonstrate that the  supposed "danger" that you say my approach invites - that this idea of danger is simply absurd.

To wit:

If the lone worker were to run afoul of the law, and face prosecution in court, the following scene would basically HAVE to occur:

The arresting policeman begins presenting evidence against thedefendant.  He begins by showing video tapes to the court - first shot, the internet cafe: Your honor, the felon is one of the six farang sitting at the computer - specifically, the "bad guy" is third from left. Now, here's the ATM shot. The lawbreaker is the fourth farang in line.  Now, the shot at the UPS office - our defendant is tough to see - too many other farang blocking the shot - 'there's a glimpse of him, in-between the two fat farang. Now, here's our final evidence - see the felon's signature on the Hotel Business Center log - he's the 18th signature down on 12 July.

If you or anyone else cannot see the absurdity of the idea of prosecuting someone for unstructured, "invisible" work performed here by a lone individual - then I cannot help you.

Regards,

Steve

[ChiangMaiThai]

I have been following this debate since it started a week or two ago. For what it is worth, I have spoken to a number of long time expats in the area (20 years plus). None have ever heard of a farang landing in trouble with immigration for participating in the activities described by Indo Siam. All say that if you are working for a company here, receiving a salary, and you do this on a tourist visa, then you are likely to run into problems.Otherwise, sending business e-mails, making business phone calls, buying and shipping product, they all say they have never heard of any problem in 20 years. Another opinion... I think everyone has to just decide for themselves.

[kukui]

I print books in Thailand.  Do all my graphic lay out, type setting and printing in country.  I spend hours each day at the factory, minding my business. Quality of production, etc.   Then export those books to Hawaii and North America.  The factory is happy to receive my business, and I am considered an exporter. Still, I check on my business in Hawaii on a daily basis. E mail, voice mail by phone, fax, etc.  I do this all by lap top from my rented condo.  I do this on a tourist visa, and have been doing this for the last six years, on a regular bais.  I am in Thailand every two to three months, for as long as three months at a time.  Never ever has it been suggested I am in violation of any law, but rather a contributor to the manufacturing and export business in Thailand.  Of course, my income is earned outside the country. Yet, small amounts of revenue have been generated in country - sales of my product at large retail chain book stores in Thailand.  Perhaps that is where some danger lies? But I doubt it. Technically yes, but I (am most of us) are such small fish I doubt anyone cares what small money I earn in Thailand. It is insignificant really. But I add thousands of dollars to the local printing business yearly.  People like us are generally considered valuable customers.  That being said, why not give us a break on residency visas, or retirment visas?  Over the years I have added way over the minum required, under the new retirement visa money requirement , to the local economy.  However, that is probably for politicians to decide.  Something like a favored visitor status?   That is why I feel reluctant to put down thirty five grand into a Thai bank, plus pay the government another $4,200 for a Retirement Visa.  The question is, how much is enough?   Many of us have contributed quite a bit to the growth of the kingdom, over the last many years.   Just my random thoughts.  

Kukui in Honolulu

[TRIPxCORE]

I would have to agree that it isnt too much to worry about exporting such small amounts of stuff for anybody to care about and not having a work permit.  We are, like the previous poster said, such small fish.  On the other hand, is having an export license necessary or a good idea when engaging in these activities?

[TRIPxCORE]

To add to my previous post, do you need a work permit to get an export license?  I am not sure.

[ChiangMaiThai]

there's another thread going on about this, but I can't remember the name-sorry. Basically you've got one guy saying you must have an exporters license to export. You must have a work permit to get the license. Now I've asked long time exporters here and no one knows what this license is. i also went to UPS today and asked if I was required to have one-they didn't know what an export license was. So, I think everyone has to decide for themselves. Even if it may be technically illegal, I guarantee you that if you went to a UPS and asked farangs sending product home to sell if they have an export license, maybe 1% would. One person suggested that this license is held by the freight forwarders and covers indicidual shippers. Again, rather than a big debate, I think we should just leave it up to the individual to talk to the relevant parties in their area and draw their own conclusion.

[mrentoul]

Again, rather than a big debate, I think we should just leave it up to the individual to talk to the relevant parties in their area and draw their own conclusion.

These ''big debates'', as you put it, might actually help those people who would like to know the difference between an export licence, a work permit and a non-immigrant B visa.

Judging by your posts above, you are not aware of the difference. If you're not interested, why post here?

[Butterfly]

Steve, Thanks for your input.

I fully respect your opinions, but some of your advices are dangerous. I have been living here for 15 years, both in the private and official sector, and my experience of what you are allowed to do differs from youyrs.

Could you please point me to an url or printed text that certifies what you are saying.

Well I agree with Indo-Siam and that has also been my observations. Again things could change in the future. This has been confirmed to me by Thai Officials at the embassy AND in Bangkok (immigration officials and labor department officials). They don't even care.

Not sure what you have seen here for 15 years but it does seem far from reality or maybe you have been limited to a specific industry or work environment where such observations would have been impossible.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Again, rather than a big debate, I think we should just leave it up to the individual to talk to the relevant parties in their area and draw their own conclusion.

These ''big debates'', as you put it, might actually help those people who would like to know the difference between an export licence, a work permit and a non-immigrant B visa.

Judging by your posts above, you are not aware of the difference. If you're not interested, why post here?

Sorry, I don't think that 80 contradictory responses from dozens of people with different motives helps to clarify anything for anyone.

I posted here to share my experience not to debate anyone. Namely, that my local UPS doesn't even know what an export license is and has assured me that I may ship as often and as much as I like without any kind of license. I would be happy to read the experience of others also.

But when its simply Mr. x insisting on one thing and Mr. Y insisting on another, I hardly see how this helps anyone.

But by all means, don't let me stop you...