Head On Collision - Air Bags Failed To Open

[wilko]

As for weight...well that is largely an illusion....most standard pickups weigh LESS than a normal family saloon (some bearly more than a Jazz).

If you want weight you need to get the Toyota Innova.

The standard pickups which comprise a huge slice of the Thai traffic are lighter than Camry or Accord etc.....even a full spec. Fortuner is only about 100 k heavier .... given it's height and construction it would clearly have the disadvantage....and an ordinary pickup with no wieght on the back and the running gear of a ruhumatic brontosaurus, would behave like a skittle in an alley in what many posters seem to be regarding as a gladiatorial contest...though I still regard it as road safety myself.

Edited April 25, 2008 by wilko

[Pomthai]

Toyota Camry 1585KG

Honda Accord 1650KG

Toyota Fortuner 1925KG

Toyota Hilux Vigo 1870KG

Toyota Inova 1660KG

I dunno where you get your figures from wilko but they appear wrong if fact opposite of what you say regarding the Inova. Have a look here

for more comparisons.

[wilko]

lets throw figures about...I really think that quoting figures willy-nilly is the hallmark of a poor argument but I'll make an exception here as you seem to think that your figures differ from mine they don't...if you take time to read the important part....the script

Mitsubishi – triton 2dr 1,575,

4 dr 4 X 4 - Vehicle Kerb weight (Kg) 1875 1895 1945 1955

Honda Accord last model - 1810 kg)

Sport rider 1895

Fortuner - 1,945 to 1,735

Vigo 1550 to 1870

Honda Jazz 1050kg

now what did I say?

especially look at the weights of the older pickups which are even lighter......

apart from the fact you're splitting hairs any how with your choice of model. you appear to quoted the weight of the 4 wd models and only the 4 WD read my last post.........there's not a single fact wrong you just want to pick a row.

and take at look at YOUR figures, the point is there is NO great weight difference between pickups and most other vehicles on the road especially given the random nature of road accidents....the argument put forward by the gladiators is that these "monsters" will cut through any "opposition" by shear weight advantage, which in reality doesn't exist....a coupled with their inate lack of accident safety construction makes them less safe in an accident.

I've got a weight of 200 plus for the Innova - Thailand.

Edited April 25, 2008 by wilko

[Priceless]

lets throw figures about...

Mitsubishi – triton 2dr 1,575,

4 X 4 - Vehicle Kerb weight (Kg) 1875 1895 1945 1955

Honda Accord last model - 1810 kg)

Fortuner - 1,945 to 1,735

Vigo 1550 to 1870

Honda Jazz 1050kg

now what did I say?

especially look at the weights of the older pickups which are even lighter......

apart from the fact you're splitting hairs any how with your choice of model. you appear to quoted the weight of the 3.5 litre V6 model Mitsubishi that is not available here.and only the 4 WD read my last post.........there's not a single fact wrong you just want to pick a row.

the point is there is NO great weight difference between pickups and most other vehicles on the road especially given thwerandom nature of road accidents....the argument put forward by the gladiators is that these "monsters" will cut through any "opposition" by shear weight advantage, which in reality doesn't exist....a coupled with their inate lack of accident safety construction makes them less safe in an accident.

Sorry to join somebody else's fight, but I can't help noticing something. Pomthai shows the readers the courtesy of giving links to his sources, whereas wilko just quotes figures out of thin air. Until wilko comes up with his sources (and explains why the Triton 4x4 has four different kerb weights) I'll prefer to believe Pomthai

/ Priceless

[Pomthai]

Actually I just chose the top of the range of each model as a reasonable comparison. I just found your statement surprising to say the least and wanted to see some figures for my self. Comparing any pickup to a Honda Jazz weight wise is well just odd in my opinion. You also imply that the Toyota Innova is the heaviest of the lot - well it isn't is it. Also not available here as far as I'm aware.

Also, no I'm not after a row and nor did I quote any Mitsubishi either.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Pomthai

[Thaiboxer]

If you want weight, go for an 80's era Mercedes...say a 400 or 500 series sedan. My mother had a secondhand one years ago...it weighed 4,500lbs, yet it could go pretty quick with its turbocharged V-6 diesel engine.

[wilko]

Quite right too......because apart from the Innova, our figures are the same. or different vehicles.....one reason I don't quote sources is because I really don't consider a discussion on a web site like this merits it.....I spend most of my life quoting sources and researching, and what I come up with on a chat is from memory or evidence at hand....if you want a serious discussion you'd have to pay me.

Edited April 25, 2008 by wilko

[wilko]

Actually I just chose the top of the range of each model as a reasonable comparison. I just found your statement surprising to say the least and wanted to see some figures for my self. Comparing any pickup to a Honda Jazz weight wise is well just odd in my opinion. You also imply that the Toyota Innova is the heaviest of the lot - well it isn't is it. Also not available here as far as I'm aware.

Also, no I'm not after a row and nor did I quote any Mitsubishi either.

traffic consists of more than "top of the range"....remember what we are talking about?

[Pomthai]

Actually I just chose the top of the range of each model as a reasonable comparison. I just found your statement surprising to say the least and wanted to see some figures for my self. Comparing any pickup to a Honda Jazz weight wise is well just odd in my opinion. You also imply that the Toyota Innova is the heaviest of the lot - well it isn't is it. Also not available here as far as I'm aware.

Also, no I'm not after a row and nor did I quote any Mitsubishi either.

traffic consists of more than "top of the range"....remember what we are talking about?

I think the numbers I quoted speak for them self. That is why I used the words "reasonable comparison". I didn't think a Jazz and a pickup was.

You're metaphorically comparing an egg to bowling ball.

I am aware that indeed not all vehicles on the road are top of the range. I've even seen buses and really big trucks with dirt in them!!

[Plus]

All the numbers are quite the same.

Pickups and CamryAccord about 1.5 ton. Fortuner about 2 ton. Jazz/Vios etc about 1 ton. Corolla/Civic about 1.1 -1.2 ton.

If pickups were close to Jazz, say 10-20% difference in weight (and so in applied force) during the collision, I might consider that Jazz will be a safer vehicle.

But when the difference is 1.5 ton vs 1 ton, or 4wd Vigo 1.8 ton - 50-80% difference, I don't think that allegedly superior Jazz design is going to matter a lot.

Ncap test shows that Triton is as safely designed as Jazz, and weigh 50% more. There's no doubt in my mind that Triton will come out better of out of an accident with Jazz.

If a top spec Accord hits Jazz - 80% weight difference - Jazz occupants stand no chance.

Size DOES matter.

[Pomthai]

All the numbers are quite the same.

Pickups and CamryAccord about 1.5 ton. Fortuner about 2 ton. Jazz/Vios etc about 1 ton. Corolla/Civic about 1.1 -1.2 ton.

If pickups were close to Jazz, say 10-20% difference in weight (and so in applied force) during the collision, I might consider that Jazz will be a safer vehicle.

But when the difference is 1.5 ton vs 1 ton, or 4wd Vigo 1.8 ton - 50-80% difference, I don't think that allegedly superior Jazz design is going to matter a lot.

Ncap test shows that Triton is as safely designed as Jazz, and weigh 50% more. There's no doubt in my mind that Triton will come out better of out of an accident with Jazz.

If a top spec Accord hits Jazz - 80% weight difference - Jazz occupants stand no chance.

Size DOES matter.

Absolutely. My sentiments exactly.

[Maigo6]

Sadly, Wilko and all occupants in his pick-up are doomed if anything larger than a mosquito hits em.

[tuffy]

Mobi,

Glad you are OK I am sorry but right now I can't read through all the posts to see if this question is answered BUT did you buy the car new or used, if used you were scammed and the air bags were already sold to the lowest bidder...

[Mobi]

Mobi,

Glad you are OK I am sorry but right now I can't read through all the posts to see if this question is answered BUT did you buy the car new or used, if used you were scammed and the air bags were already sold to the lowest bidder...

It was new.

but shortly;y after I bought it I had a problem with the air bag light which wouldn't go off. One dealer said he wanted to keep the car for 2 days to trace the fault, and I took it to another dealer at the next service and they fixed it in five minutes.

There is now a suspicion that they simply disengaged the air bags.

It's still being repaired in Bang Na, so I won't know until it is finished on 20th May.

[wilko]

I should like to reiterate here that airbags that operate WITHOUT seat belts are a danger in themselves. You do not want to be hit in the face by an expending airbag!

Now…..The Fortuner and the stag beetle…..

This is going round in circles so let me summarize my point of view…..

My assertion is that contrary to popular belief, pick-ups are intrinsically less safe than sedans…it would appear that those who don’t believe this are arguing that this can’t be so as pickups are heavier than sedans. The argument “pro –pickups therefore seems to be based on the concept that “might is right”

Many of the other arguments against my proposition are in fact quite spurious “He can’t afford a Vigo/Fortuner’…many seem to disagree but can’t say why apart from reiterating a belief in the advantage of weight…if it’s heavier, it must be safer.

This argument really relies very heavily on the “dogs have 4 legs” proposition which goes thus….

Fact: - “Dogs have 4 legs”

Fact: - My cat has for legs”

Conclusion: - Therefore my cat is a dog…….

The truth is you need a lot more than one piece of information to support any theory – in this case just weight is not sufficient….a car is not a solid object with uniform density, it is the sum of its components and how they in turn are assembled.

Take the “bug” theory above - …….Imagine a 2.5 inch stag beetle happily flying towards your windshield and a .22 slug…both about the same weight – a few grams – on contact with the windshield these two objects will behave in completely different ways…..and it has to be said that pick-ups, Fortuners etc are more akin to a stag-beetle than a speeding bullet…….they have an outer skin (exoskeleton) some undercarriage and some very squishy insides….

Now come to weight of sedans – firstly I would suggest that figures show that the average sedan is about the same weight as the average pick up and of course some pickups (4wd) are heavier, but so are non average sedans… (Merc / BMW) etc….the figures I used were from Thai and Malaysian sources and refer to vehicles on sale in this country and S.E. Asia…..how accurate the figures are or whether they relate to regional differences in vehicle spec. I neither know nor care as it really isn’t that relevant and to argue over them is a waste of time…..

So for the benefit of the skeptics let’s assume we have a UK Honda Accord at 1600 kg in collision with a Fortuner – top-of-the-range at 2000 kg, only in this crash the Accord has 4 fat passengers – all 110 kg and their luggage which is 4 suitcases at 25kg - Fortuner is driven by my Thai girlfriend – 60 kg – no luggage – she is on her way to the shops……so what happens now? The Accord is heavier than the Fortuner…..are the tables turned???

According to the weight theory all have to do is add weight to my car to make it safer…..???

..Therefore other examples of “safe” vehicles would include a fully loaded Song taew or a side car full of rice???

What makes a “top of the Range” pickup heavier anyway? Well the extra mechanics – transfer box, drive shafts etc, and the extended cab extra doors and seats too…but is any of this going to help in an accident? Is the cab – the container for the passengers in anyway stronger?

All this weight then and the vehicle has “momentum” – as I said the vehicle is only the sum of its parts, not a uniform solid entity….so what you have rolling along…..(after an accident it may not even be on its wheels) - is a collection of assembled parts, and how do these behave in a collision? What is the single heaviest part? – Most likely the engine and gearbox unit. (In a sedan designed of go under the passenger compartment.). If this charges on it may collide with the passenger compartment of the sedan which is designed first to absorb the impact and then retain an “egg-like” cage around the passengers……..without the engine and gearbox the next thing is the chassis…this is 2 parallel bars along the underside of the vehicle that the passenger compartment and pickup tray are bolted to…the passenger compartment by now on its own and then has to be as well designed as a sedan’s…which it is not so the resulting decomposition of the parts continues much the same way as the stag beetle.

A modern sedan is designed to protect the occupants and the periphery of the vehicle is designed to absorb impact, the chassis and cab design on a pickup makes this much more difficult to achieve.

The end of the day pickups are not the “solid monsters” their owners like to think and rigidity and weight are not the best thing to have in an accident. The passenger compartment is not necessarily a strong as even thehumble Jazzes and cut lose from the chassis or powertrain it's on it's own.

Added to the nature of their construction, there is also the problem of centre of gravity, serve control and general cornering and handling of these vehicles…and resulting harm to others.

So pickups are lacking in both ACTIVE and PASSIVE safety. Active being features that make an accident less likely (ABS EPS, suspension systems etc) and passive in protection in the event. (seat belts/ airbags, crash compatibility and crumple zones)

Some people like to say “you get what you pay for” – well one of the reasons that pickups are cheap is that they are lo-tech - easy to produce in a cheap labour situation without the use of overly hi-tech production methods, this is because they are simple in design and construction…which also means that they do not readily come up to modern day safety standards and rely heavily on regulations that apply to family sedans not applying to them as “work vehicles”.

My problem is not with the pickups themselves but it is with perceptions as to their safety the majority of which seem to be largely erroneous.

Edited May 15, 2008 by wilko

[wilko]

Mobi, I was just looking over this thread and it really doesn't seem to address the question of the airbags properly.

To sum up it looks like you were driving without seat belts....

It wasn't a head-on collision and you expected the airbags to open.......

If you look into this you will find that on almost every car the airbags won't open if the seatbelts aren't worn because this is DANGEROUS - they are designed to work in conjunction with seat-belts. In the event of a collision the belts will hold you roughly in place so the airbag which opens explosively can open safely.....if you are travelling towards the airbag iit is tantamount to having an explosion in your face and some passengers have lost their lives due to this.

So if you override your airbags you may well be putting yourself in more danger rather than less.

Edited June 9, 2008 by wilko

[jayjayjayjay]

Mobi, hope your all good now, question, did you get an answer on the airbags(re May 20th). I would not put it past Thai mechanics to have simply pulled a fuse or disconnected power too or even removed your airbag sensors! I hope this is not the case, what's the final verdict!