Anything Wrong With This Sentence?

[sysardman]

^I would say we've been hired to help the students, and it's best to teach in a way that helps the students.

If the students plan to take formal grammar tests for university entrance, El Kango is probably right to eliminate extra, exceptional concepts that will simply confuse them (and probably reduce test scores). For advanced students, wider ranging things are better.

I doubt that El K ever comes into class and starts a lesson "....would like a coffee" is INCORRECT!

Most likely he simply never uses the phrase in that level of class.

I would find it odd and possibly incompetent if a teacher of lower-level students were spending a lot of time on such unhelpful minutiae.

Thanks Steven (or is it Stephen?)

I never once said that I teach the phrase in question as being incorrect English. I simply don't wish to complicate the already very complicated matters for EFL students. Therefore, I do not teach idiomatic phrases. I'd sooner see my students get the "basics" VERY correct before they launch headlong into the variations of English across the globe.

I'd just like to say that the expression 'Would you like a coffee' is used by millions of British people every day and I would bet that while I am writing this somebody is saying it now. I say it every day myself, the cup is implied in the sentence as I assume my guest is not expecting the coffee in a bucket or some other container. Whether it fits in with EFL I don't know but rest assured if you go to the UK and ask for 'a coffee' you will get a 'cup of coffee'.

[PeaceBlondie]

Would it be okay, if we were the king of grammar, could we unconditionally discuss conditional phrases and verbs?

[withnail]

^I would say we've been hired to help the students, and it's best to teach in a way that helps the students.

If the students plan to take formal grammar tests for university entrance, El Kango is probably right to eliminate extra, exceptional concepts that will simply confuse them (and probably reduce test scores). For advanced students, wider ranging things are better.

I doubt that El K ever comes into class and starts a lesson "....would like a coffee" is INCORRECT!

Most likely he simply never uses the phrase in that level of class.

I would find it odd and possibly incompetent if a teacher of lower-level students were spending a lot of time on such unhelpful minutiae.

Thanks Steven (or is it Stephen?)

I never once said that I teach the phrase in question as being incorrect English. I simply don't wish to complicate the already very complicated matters for EFL students. Therefore, I do not teach idiomatic phrases. I'd sooner see my students get the "basics" VERY correct before they launch headlong into the variations of English across the globe.

Your acting as if it's an obscure, uncommon expression, only encountered in advanced conversation, but it isn't. Ordering a drink in a cafe is about as basic as it gets and you're depriving your students of the ability to do it properly.

If you can find a copy of New Headway Beginner turn to unit 12 and you will see the phrases "Would you like a Coke?", "I'd like an orange juice." and "Would you like a coffee?"

Could you tell me again what you would do if you were using this book?

[elkangorito]

^I would say we've been hired to help the students, and it's best to teach in a way that helps the students.

If the students plan to take formal grammar tests for university entrance, El Kango is probably right to eliminate extra, exceptional concepts that will simply confuse them (and probably reduce test scores). For advanced students, wider ranging things are better.

I doubt that El K ever comes into class and starts a lesson "....would like a coffee" is INCORRECT!

Most likely he simply never uses the phrase in that level of class.

I would find it odd and possibly incompetent if a teacher of lower-level students were spending a lot of time on such unhelpful minutiae.

Thanks Steven (or is it Stephen?)

I never once said that I teach the phrase in question as being incorrect English. I simply don't wish to complicate the already very complicated matters for EFL students. Therefore, I do not teach idiomatic phrases. I'd sooner see my students get the "basics" VERY correct before they launch headlong into the variations of English across the globe.

Your acting as if it's an obscure, uncommon expression, only encountered in advanced conversation, but it isn't. Ordering a drink in a cafe is about as basic as it gets and you're depriving your students of the ability to do it properly.

If you can find a copy of New Headway Beginner turn to unit 12 and you will see the phrases "Would you like a Coke?", "I'd like an orange juice." and "Would you like a coffee?"

Could you tell me again what you would do if you were using this book?

I am familiar with the "Headway" series & I have, on numerous occasions, edited the English to suit more common profiles of the language for learners of English (EFL). I am not a teacher who simply follows each page of a book. Any fool can do that.

Whilst I don't disagree with you that the abovementioned phrases are not obscure, I reiterate my objective..."I simply don't wish to complicate the already very complicated matters for EFL students. Therefore, I do not teach idiomatic phrases."

One may guess that you are one of the very few people in the world who can simply "pick up" languages. If not, have you ever tried to learn another language & at the same time, tried to learn all the "modern & current" lingo that goes with it? This especially applies if the new language is a total departure from your mother tongue (i.e. a "tonal" language versus a Latin based language & visa versa).

I have just finished a 10 week course for Hotel & Tourism students (4 hours per week). These students are 2nd year College students & they still, after years of learning English at "Matyom", can hardly get through a basic sentence. Out of the 20 students in the class, less than 30% were able to negotiate their way around a "basic" sentence, which was structured in a "standard grammitical way". Had I used "current English idioma", the students would have been at a total loss. As it turned out (after the course), most of the students "significantly" improved their abilty to listen to, speak & read (aloud) English, as gauged by myself & other colleagues (testing). At no time were terms like "would you like a coffee" or similar, used.

For you to think the way that you do;

1] you might not currently teach people English at a Thai institution or,

2] the people you teach are quite advanced in English & can therefore understand "idioma" or,

3] you have no idea about what you are speaking.

Today was the last day of the intensive course & as a result, the Thai teachers decided to have a small party. The students did all the work (of course)...cooking etc. Constantly, throughout the afternoon, I was fronted by students who asked me, "Rob, would you like some squid?" or "Rob, would you like a glass of beer?" This is what I have taught them & it took them a great deal of effort to say what they did. It also perfectly fits in with all the other English that they have previously learnt. Now (today), they can finally apply it correctly without fear of being misunderstood...unless, of course, a foreigner doesn't undertsand "a glass of" or "some" or "a piece of" etc. My hat goes off to them because they tried so hard to please me...but in the end, they did make themselves happy BECAUSE THEY COULD SPEAK ENGLISH, WHICH WAS ABLE TO BE PERFECTLY UNDERSTOOD BY OTHERS. Not only this, they could understand what they were saying...without a doubt.

Had I injected the "current" idioma into the course, I think I would have had to spend at least another 2 days (16 hours) to teach & test the students' understanding of such, since it departs from the "typical" grammatical solution, with which they are are familiar. BTW, I do NOT teach grammar.

The wonderful idea that you have of introducing language specific idioma may not necessarily work. Each class/student MUST be gauged upon their ability BEFORE introducing language idioma. To simply assume that this is not necessary is to neglect the needs of your students, particularly if you know that their English background is poor (typical in Thailand).

Edited May 6, 2008 by elkangorito

[mr_hippo]

Idioma? IDIOMA? The plural is idioms, I see that you belong to the BBB School of English! What is an idiom? It is a figure of speech where the meaning cannot be understood by the sum of the component parts - if I were to say to you "Bill's ar5e is cold." Could it be that Bill has a medical condition where his posterior is cooler than the rest of his body? I'll leave others to provide the answer. Another idiomatic expression is "It's black over Bill's mother's" - can you work out the meaning from the component parts?

"Would you like a coffee?" is not an idiom - you can work out what the speaker is asking you or are you just being stubborn?

[PeaceBlondie]

mr hippo beat me to the punch, after I waited or waded through countless uses of idioma in el kangorito's posts.

el kan, I take it you are bilingual in Spanish, as I am. idioma is the Spanish word for language. It is not an English word, nor are we discussing idiomatic expressions in this thread. We are discussing countable nouns, and have seen that throughout the native-English speaking world, it is common for native speakers to request a coffee without using slang.

But el kan, I applaud your success with your students, and sympathize that the matayom graduates we sent out into the world were almost totally illiterate in English. I use the word we collectively, since 95% of the English taught in Thailand was taught by Thais who also were not great English conversationalists. I would teach students of hospitality (including future waiters) that customers will ask for a coffee. Bill Clinton probably asked for a coffee and a "smoke" after he had been to Oxford and Harvard.

[wilko]

I would have thought that it was very important for students to at least recognise such expressions as "would you like a coffee" as they will be encountered in everyday usage...I'd hate to think that such common expressions would leave them puzzled....whether they use them or not.

[midasthailand]

Good point, wilko, as usual. Brits seem to say, TO the contrary, while (whilst) Americans say, ON the contrary. Any more examples?

Aussies would just say Bulls--t!

Americans root for their football teams - In Australia that could be dangerous, so we barrack for our football teams.

I'll have a coffee and a croissant thanks!

[wilko]

Good point, wilko, as usual. Brits seem to say, TO the contrary, while (whilst) Americans say, ON the contrary. Any more examples?

Aussies would just say Bulls--t!

Americans root for their football teams - In Australia that could be dangerous, so we barrack for our football teams.

I'll have a coffee and a croissant thanks!

On the contrary, I think a Brit would say "on" before saying something "to" the contrary....

Of course they would pronounce either either or neither as "eye"ther or "Nigh"ther, not "ee"ther nor "nee"ther.........but am I starting a CON-troversy or would that be a con-TRO-versy?

[Crossy]

Good point, wilko, as usual. Brits seem to say, TO the contrary, while (whilst) Americans say, ON the contrary. Any more examples?

Aussies would just say Bulls--t!

Americans root for their football teams - In Australia that could be dangerous, so we barrack for our football teams.

I'll have a coffee and a croissant thanks!

I love these threads

Actually, contrary to the above, as a Brit I would likely say "On the contrary" as a preposition (is that the right name) when starting an argumentative phrase in which I would be saying something to the contrary of a previous argument (or something like that).

And, of course, (back on topic) I would say "Coffee?", one eyebrow raised, quizical expression

Just a thought, "barracking" is what we do to the opposing team

Edited May 7, 2008 by Crossy

[withnail]

mr hippo beat me to the punch, after I waited or waded through countless uses of idioma in el kangorito's posts.

el kan, I take it you are bilingual in Spanish, as I am. idioma is the Spanish word for language. It is not an English word, nor are we discussing idiomatic expressions in this thread. We are discussing countable nouns, and have seen that throughout the native-English speaking world, it is common for native speakers to request a coffee without using slang.

More to the point, idiomatic doesn't just mean 'using idioms', but rather 'being natural of a language'. The idea that you wouldn't teach idiomatic speech is crazy. The whole reason we are employed is to do this, as a Thai teacher can easily teach a student language that might be grammatically correct but not commonly used.

Example: Could I have a knife and fork? Idiomatic

Could I have a fork and knife? Unidiomatic but correct. You would teach this would you? No, of course not, because you do teach idiomatic English.

Also, if you want to get technical about the difficulties of teaching such 'modern and current lingo' to students whose first language is tonal you must realise that 'Would you like a cup of coffee?' (if transliterated into Thai) involves using two more words which would naturally to a Thai speaker have a tone implied and one of which that contains a final sound that doesn't exist in their language.

Not only is this expression 100% correct, more common in certain situations, and necessary language for someone in their industry. It is also ridiculously easy. You must have low expectations of your students if you think they couldn't understand this written on a whiteboard:

a coffee = a cup of coffee

The idea that you'd need 2 extra days for this or that it would only be understood by people whose English is quite advanced is mental.

Edited May 7, 2008 by withnail

[mbkudu]

The idea that you'd need 2 extra days for this or that it would only be understood by people whose English is quite advanced is mental.

I love your fresh approach to explaining the obvious.

[withnail]

The idea that you'd need 2 extra days for this or that it would only be understood by people whose English is quite advanced is mental.

I love your fresh approach to explaining the obvious.

Now that's idiomatic. (Sorry, cheap shot.)

Edited May 7, 2008 by withnail