My Ex (or Not)

[toptuan]

(and trust me IJWT does flame anyone that disagrees with him or calls him on his crap)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can hardly believe that this personal saga is still continuing as a thread

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

may not like my posts because I don’t conform to the “old boy’s network”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aren't you guys fearful of getting neutralized as "unruly newbies"? Your number of posts don't authorize you to talk back like this!

[PeaceBlondie]

Shall we all calm down, take a holiday beverage, and unruffle our feathers?

I hate having to moderate a squabble between two of my best friends in Thailand, if it comes to that, but I can and will if I need to.

Not all the 'old boys' network' here consists of guys who spend a week or two every year. The only ones I can think of, are planning to be residents of Thailand, full time, in 2006, and the rest of us already are.

As Steve2UK said (and mercy to Mergatroid, Steve's a friend of mine!), the thread started by DrMoggles was going nowhere, and my friendships had nothing to do with it. It was not, as has been claimed, 'yet another thread closed by PeaceBlondie' or whatever, but the very first I've closed.

Dumpster, if you'll check the forum rules, I don't think you're supposed to discuss moderation calls or moderators on the open forum. PM me if you must.

Merry Christmas, y'all.

[DUMPSTER]

I don't think I was discussing a moderation call but merely stating the fact that a topic had been closed.

As for the 'old boys' network' the fact that they are in Thailand supporting their boyfriends instead of doing it from their native countries only means their circumstances have changed, their mentality doesn't. In fact once here the mentality of foreigners, who come here for love, tends to disintigrate.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd like to request that the last page or so from my "fans" be removed on the basis that it is consistently off-topic (including this message). Many thanks in advance.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

While I'm here, though, I'd just like to thank the many readers who, though they don't feel moved to post and say so, have made this thread one of the most popular ones in the gay forum and probably among some of the most-read threads in the entire forum. It puzzles me why certain readers feel bound to post here for the sole purpose of describing how boring they find the thread (in some cases, without having posted anything else on the forum for months and months). Of course, one hopes that if the thread is so boring and they are so talented, they would start their own threads to show us just how exciting they are, but that never seems to happen, for some unimaginable reason....

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Personally I find this thread very Interestiing & entertaining.

It obviously takes Time & Effort by the writer - and I for one am very willing to wait - and from past posts imagine most readers enjoy the Saga.

jdinasia - maybe you are unaware of the Thai word "krap"?

Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Bill. It's nice to get some positive feedback. Heck, it's nice to get constructive negative feedback, except that most of those "complaining" of my thread (as you point out) can't seem to get past the words "crap" and "boring," which perhaps means their challenge is mostly one of vocabulary.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

He told O. I was cute and looked like Pooh Bear (I get that a lot).

It makes me want to regurgitate when people seek to anthropomorphize themselves with cute cartoonish figures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Moog, I know you are my secret love.

[Ijustwannateach]

Getting back to the topic:

Everything was more or less smooth-sailing as previously described until Songkran of this year, which seems to be the annual job-quitting time for about half the population of Isaan employed within the Greater Bangkok Municipality. My ex- was no different, and he promptly quit his job to go home, promising profusely against my protests to have another job before the month was out.

Naturally, he asked me for money to help celebrate Songkran at home in Isaan.

Was I welcome to go?

No, of course not.

Why should I pay?

It's tradition for us to bring our families money at Songkran and if we don't we lose face.

Why haven't you been saving from what you earn and what I give you?

[puzzled expression as if does not translate]

Sigh... Ok, O., here's what I'll do. I'll give you a little money because it's New Year. I'll loan you the rest of what you want against what I give you to help you, ASSUMING that you get a new job. This means you'll only get 1000B a month from me until it's repaid. Do you understand?

OK!

..........................................................

Unfortunately for me, I was no match for O. Why? Because he didn't get a job when he came back to Bangkok and I wound up supporting him anyway for a month or two. To make matters worse, the "Brother" mentioned above had more of a talent for losing his way in Bangkok than he did for holding on to a job, and because of the ratty way in which new hires are treated here in Thailand (of which more later) he didn't really generate any income for his first two months of working. So I wound up supporting TWO Isaan boys for two months, when both were supposed to be working!

"Steven"

[SDH]

Getting back to the topic:

Everything was more or less smooth-sailing as previously described until Songkran of this year, which seems to be the annual job-quitting time for about half the population of Isaan employed within the Greater Bangkok Municipality.  My ex- was no different, and he promptly quit his job to go home, promising profusely against my protests to have another job before the month was out.

Naturally, he asked me for money to help celebrate Songkran at home in Isaan.

Was I welcome to go?

No, of course not.

Why should I pay?

It's tradition for us to bring our families money at Songkran and if we don't we lose face.

Why haven't you been saving from what you earn and what I give you?

[puzzled expression as if does not translate]

Sigh...  Ok, O., here's what I'll do.  I'll give you a little money because it's New Year.  I'll loan you the rest of what you want against what I give you to help you, ASSUMING that you get a new job.  This means you'll only get 1000B a month from me until it's repaid.  Do you understand?

OK!

..........................................................

Unfortunately for me, I was no match for O.  Why?  Because he didn't get a job when he came back to Bangkok and I wound up supporting him anyway for a month or two.  To make matters worse, the "Brother" mentioned above had more of a talent for losing his way in Bangkok than he did for holding on to a job, and because of the ratty way in which new hires are treated here in Thailand (of which more later) he didn't really generate any income for his first two months of working.  So I wound up supporting TWO Isaan boys for two months, when both were supposed to be working!

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steven,

I've read your story and I'm amazed by it...Well not so much by the story but by all the ultimatums! What's up with that? Do you think he will change and be the citizen you want him to? I think it's great you're setting goals for him and hopefully it works out for the 2 of you. However it sounds like he really loves you and has given up a very swanky lifestyle just to please you already.....Maybe cut the little guy some slack for a while

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for the candid (not to mention amusing and polite) comment. I admit I was perhaps trying a bit too hard, especially considering his age. However, I was and still am going up the learning curve, too.

How do things work out? Well, that's the topic, isn't it? I'll keep updating until we reach the present, more or less- and then it's up for grabs.

"Steven"

[dukkha]

'unruly newbies'......ooooooooh...that is an interesting label to tag one with...if my posts were frequent would I then only be justified in making any rational comments....I THINK NOT...reading some of the stuff posted by 'obedient oldies' ...these comments dont really encourage one to want to participate more frequently but serve as some kind of censor....

[Ijustwannateach]

I would like to encourage those who wish to post about my post count (or my comments on those without one) to post on this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=54329

where it would be on topic, and where I invite good-natured abuse. I would like to remind everyone that my post count or behavior elsewhere on this forum is NOT on topic on this thread, which is about my relationship with my ex- (or not). Thank you very much for your kind, topical, (and polite) attention.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

The next part of the story helped me to understand the answer to the question, "why do Thais kill the goose that laid the golden egg?"

In case there's anyone who hasn't heard the story:

"Once upon a time, there was a small village where a marvellous goose lived. This goose would lay an egg made of gold every morning, without fail. Its owners had become among the most prosperous gentlefarmers of the village, and people came from far and wide to witness the miracle.

One day, as a result of a bad business decision, the owner of the goose came home dejected and discussed his money problems with his family and neighbors. A sly and cunning man who lived next door suggested, "why don't you kill the goose and cut her open? She must have many golden eggs inside her and your money problems will be taken care of quickly, once and for all!" The goose's owner thought this was a great decision, and much against the advice of his wife, immediately slaughtered the goose- only to discover no eggs inside."

Thais are widely noted by farang for following this pattern of behavior. They go quickly for something they think will get them rich quickly, even to their disadvantage in the long or even short term. Stories abound of people borrowing large sums at interest simply to HAVE SAVINGS, or accepting a short-term bribe to agree to quit their jobs, or to attempt to extort or screw money out of a customer or client to such an unpleasant or impolite degree that they doom any chances of having repeat custom. Granted that this metaphor is instructive for many foreigners who also make mistakes, but in Thailand their errors seem much starker and more obviously blundering.

Dating O. and knowing other Thais has helped me to understand why this occurs, as we will now see.

As I previously mentioned, O. had had to pay a 1000B deposit from his salary every month for the first 5 months of his job. This is a common procedure in Thai jobs, to guarantee that people will not simply take the first month's pay and run off (another common procedure). He had been promised that this money would be refunded to him when he quit the job if he worked that long. In fact, this is the money he was planning to use for Songkran when he came to ask for my help.

Unfortunately for O., even though it was in a sort of contract which he had signed, the company refused to pay him. He went to their main office and harassed them for a few days, but got nowhere. They informed him that due to some technicality in their contracting, his contract was not really legal or binding. One woman actually offered to make the refund if he would give her a percentage from it!!!

I asked another young man I know recently if he planned to get married in the future. Though usually of a sunny disposition, his face became troubled and angry, and he said "I don't know. In Thailand we cannot know what will happen. Everything changes all the time. Maybe if I am lucky I will get married."

In my own experience working for Thai schools, I must say I have had some of the most unprofessional experiences of my life working here, for some of the shadiest and least respectable types of people (albeit in some of the "best and most reputable" schools in Thailand, in theory). And for my first two years, I had multiple broken promises, sudden changes, lies, deceit, and anguish from all my employers.

To sum up, in the Thai social system the idea of contracts as binding social promises is still a weak, poorly understood one followed more in the breach than in the observance. Power and status relationships seem to be more predictable indicators of how people will behave and promises will be kept. Put less politely, many Thais or Thai institutions are extremely unreliable by Western standards- this does not mean they are unpredictable, but that in dealings with them one cannot trust something as poorly respected as promises on paper in writing- or, I think, even promises made from one person to another. Of course, in the end this simply forces all to suffer, as no one can finally believe in or depend on almost anyone else's word. Thus follows the Thai custom: when you want something done, you don't look for a trusted person to do it- you start asking (if possible, ordering) as many people as you can in the hopes that one of them will finally help you out for some reason.

And this is why the Thais kill the goose that laid the golden egg: because for them, there never has been a goose that reliably laid the egg day after day. Better to get what you can while it seems there is something to get. I have the feeling that many a Thai-farang relationship becomes confused by this issue, and in the future I feel I must try to be more patient when I am building trust and dealing with security issues in dating or maintaining other kinds of relationships with Thai people.

"Steven"

[The_Moog]

"why do Thais kill the goose that laid the golden egg?"

Not limited to Thais.

In the original fairy tale, the goose got killed too- presumably by Bavarian or Danish peasants.

It wasn't that these reasonable citizens of EU countries somehow saw sense and kept the goose, ....they iced him too.

[Ijustwannateach]

I *did* point that out, Moog- I just think that in Thailand the examples are more extreme, and as I now believe, for good reason- not that Thais are less brainy than Europeans, but that their social environment simply encourages the practice more.

"Steven"

[Guest endure]

And this is why the Thais kill the goose that laid the golden egg:  because for them, there never has been a goose that reliably laid the egg day after day.  Better to get what you can while it seems there is something to get.  I have the feeling that many a Thai-farang relationship becomes confused by this issue, and in the future I feel I must try to be more patient when I am building trust and dealing with security issues in dating or maintaining other kinds of relationships with Thai people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got that right. It's taken 12 years for the bf to accept the fact that I'm there for good and won't go away. Now I'm 'family'.

[ChrisP]

Ok guys...

Dukkha, Dumpster and IJWT..

This post has reached 10 pages, 8,000views, and is STILL on-topic (despite the occaisional diversions and complaints..)

It is OBVIOUSLY of interest to many people, it's about relations in Thailand and as such is what TVisa is all about. I don't care HOW long it takes for IJWT to complete the story.. I think it's a good (and very brave) post. How many others here are willing to expose their personal lives for everyone to read and criticize.??

Look, NO topic is going to stay perfectly on-topic for each post.. Just go visit the rest of TVisa and tell me it's perfectly on-topic everywhere..

IJWT please be a little more lenient in that regard.. and Dukkha and Dumpster, if you don't like the length and time of the post.. then please don't read it.

We are quite happy to delete EVERY off-topic comment that comes along, but if we do there won't be a hel_l-of a lot left.. and then there will be complaints of "heavy moderating" and "no feedback allowed"..

ChrisP

Mod

[SDH]

Thanks for the candid (not to mention amusing and polite) comment.  I admit I was perhaps trying a bit too hard, especially considering his age.  However, I was and still am going up the learning curve, too.

How do things work out?  Well, that's the topic, isn't it?  I'll keep updating until we reach the present, more or less- and then it's up for grabs.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steven,

Okay I'm hooked.....

What is going on now?

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, Chris... my issue is not really with off-topic or tangents per se but rather these silly one-liner posts about "too long" or "boring" (usually repeated by the same individuals) obviously only intended to cause trouble.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

SDH, thanks for the interest- at the moment we are separated on a friendly basis, with big enormous hints from him that he'd like to be closer again. I'm kind of exasperated and thinking it would be better to look more in the thirty-something year-old crowd for someone with a real life. But it's the details that matter, so that's what I'll continue shortly!!!

"Steven"

[dukkha]

XrisP....many thanks for pointing out that I do not have to read this thread.... ...I am sure Dumpster and I will definitely heed your sagacious advice.

[Ijustwannateach]

For the two months following Songkran, when I was singlehandedly supporting O. and his brother, I continued to press O. to get a job. I looked around myself- and asked others what kind of work would be available for a college student. In the end, the best compromise I found with flexible hours was to be a grocery bagger at Tops or a similar store- the work would just be during the busiest hours of the day (3-4 hours a day at most) and low paid, but it would be normal, reliable work. I would have been happy to continue to subsidize the *rest* of O.'s expenses, assuming he showed enough good faith to take some responsibility himself.

However, when I discussed this with O. he would give a half-smiling excuse; talk about his plans to visit other places (he finally did visit one Tesco's- as far as I know, the only job interview he attended in those two months); and eventually, any mention of the subject would lead to an angry outburst, argument, and bad feeling.

Perhaps it will help SDH and other readers to understand that although I made my desires and boundaries clear within the relationship, the only thing that ever gave O. any incentive to change was a fairly drastic ultimatum; even then, he would simply backslide when he could (as with his job in this case).

To make things worse, soon after Songkran I found a new gym membership card in O.'s bag. I didn't pay for it, and I certainly knew he didn't have the money to pay for it. At this point, I warned him directly that I was not going to provide him with any more support and I would likely start dating other people soon.

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

Well I for one enjoy reading this comedy of errors. I cannot believe how ridiculous and stupid a so called teacher can make himself look with regards to a relationship with a M.B. Indeed Chris, I don't think there are many others out there willing to expose themselves in this way.

If you had stopped thinking with your genitals and opened your eyes maybe this comedy would have ended long ago. The fact that it went on for so long only shows what bad judgments you made throughout the period. Hopefully you did learn your lesson.

A simple rule when a Thai guy asks you for money.

If you were not in their life what would they do? Ask someone else, like a friend or relative for it or they would do nothing and get on with their life.

So why do you feel you should give them money?

Only your feeling of guilt makes you want to open your wallets all the time. Thais are very good at making you feel guilty, the sad face and the drooping eyes and they know exactly what to say. It’s a well rehearsed act. It’s been passed down from one generation of M.B to the next.

Steven gave his boy money to go home at Songkran so he wouldn’t lose face in front of his family. So what did he learn from that? Nothing. If he had gone home empty handed then he would have experienced a feeling that he wouldn’t like and maybe then he would have learned a lesson.

So just remember their life will not end if you don't hand over the cash. It will just go in a different direction and one they can well live with. Handing over the cash teaches them nothing about taking responsability for their lives.

Edited December 28, 2005 by DUMPSTER

[Ijustwannateach]

Yawn... don't the trolls have anything better to do?

[DUMPSTER]

Steven, are you writing this for people to massage your ego or what? You are writing on a public forum and inviting comments. You have to take the rough with the smooth. As other posters have said when you don't like another persons post you flame or incite them. I think my post is valid and you call me a troll because I'm not massaging your ego.

You are obviously not equipped mentally to cope with exposing your life story in this manner. Some private therapy sessions would have been more appropriate. You are too fragile at this time and you are carrying a lot of anger from this relationship and you keep taking it out on those who point out your fallible nature.

I am not attacking you Steven. I CARE STEVEN.

You ARE a good person under all that baggage you carry. Life indeed must be a burden to you but slowly and surely you can overcome this trauma in your life. "O" saw something in you. We all see something in you. If only you could see then this misery would end.

Edited December 28, 2005 by DUMPSTER

[Ijustwannateach]

You're going on ignore, troll. Bye!

[DUMPSTER]

Group hug for Steven

[Ijustwannateach]

Then there passed a long, awkward period, of about 6 months... O. was doing... whatever. He claimed to be collecting surveys and handing out fliers and doing assorted odd jobs such as this (with no way to verify this work, of course, usually at distant locations: shades of O. before his "real" job!) and continually showed up with new, unexplained expensive toys: a new mobile, the gym membership, lessons at a language school. Initially I confronted him about these things, but finally I got tired of the drama. What did I do instead?

Exactly as I promised: I stopped giving him any money, and started dating other people (I assumed he was doing this as well; I never had any direct evidence, however the expensive possessions leave little other explanation and no other reasonable explanation was offered: "my friend gave me this phone," etc.).

O. never really wanted to acknowledge that this is what I was doing. He continued to maintain the fiction that we were boyfriends as much as possible. In many ways, considering that he was at my home probably 5 out of 7 days a week, we were still pretty close. Whenever I intimated that I wanted a night to myself (to do whatever!) he would act weird and jealous- as if I had no right to do so. If I went back over our history together to explain to him why things were this way, he would simply lose patience (especially when it came to him explaining his lack of income and his new expensive toys) and either precipitate or simulate a blowup.

Personally speaking, I found it hard to break off with him. We were good friends, physically compatible, enjoyed each other's company and spent a lot of time together. My life in Thailand for at least the previous year had been largely spent in his company. He truly cared for me and loved me, and seemed to prefer to spend most of his time with me whether or not I was helping support him. Without a compelling reason to stop spending time around him, I think I was kind of stuck [as many who date Thai guys are]. I needed a final straw to break the camel's back.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Steven's most recent post about his relationship with O., which I always enjoy, shows a lack of communication or response with a Thai boyfriend. Perhaps there are four things that might cause this:

a. Language. Failure of the Thai to understand what the farang has said, and failure of the Thai to express himself. Likewise, the farang hasn't perhaps expressed himself well, or understood the response. In other words, a simple language barrier. However, when the farang is a teacher in Thailand, he probably knows how to speak simple English.

b. Culture. Of course, farang and Thais do things differently. However, in this example, Steven's been in Thailand a couple of years, and in other foreign country(s), and there's evidence that O. has dated farang before.

c. Infidelity and lies. The Thai simply is lying, maybe stringing 2 or 3 farang along simultaneously. Methinks this is the case.

d. It's all the fault of that nefarious 'Steven.'

[toyicebear]

"Steven" actually writes very well and the story itself is quite interesting too....

The only boring part of this tread is the assinine comments left by some people....no problem really....just read the post by the op and skip any of the others and you will be fine.. lol

One small comment, some parts of the story do indicate a slight naivite' on the op's part....well i actually shared some of those views/opinions at an earlier age and a lower level of expirience of Asia....but now..well what can i say..life's made me a cynic..lol

Best of luck to you "Steven" and please keep posting the recent developments of your expirience...

Edited December 28, 2005 by toyicebear