What Would You Do?

[phormio]

My first trip to Thailand was in the early 90s, its the trip where I met my wife. One day we were sitting on Wireless Rd across from the US embassy, waiting for a bus.

I heard the screech of breaks and banging sounds of a Asia guy getting hit full force by a medium sized sedan in the middle lane of Wireless Road; for those of you who know Wireless Road, its confusing - divided into three areas separated by concrete/grass, with the middle area having bi-directional traffic.

When I heard the noise of the pedestrian being struck, I swung my head around and saw him lying in the road in front of the car. I took care to look both ways to get over to him after handing my girlfriend's(now wife's) guitar back to her; by the time I got to him, the driver of the car had gotten out of his car and was standing near the victim. I looked into the victim's eyes as they rolled back into his head.

The guy had stepped in front of the car, the car had struck him probably at close to full force, and the back of the vics head had been crushed in by the driver's side windshield.

I had studied the Thia alphabet and read up on Thailand before my trip (at that time I was stationed in South Korea in the US Infantry) ; but I only knew a few words. So I looked across at the US embassy and saw some security guards(Thais working for a private company, I presume), and ran over to them and asked them to get an Ambulance - they had very little English language ability. But I made sure that they knew about the accident.

I went back to the scene where the victim was laying in the street in front of the car. The driver now had the vic cradled in his lap, holding the victims head.

I got mad - thats not what your supposed to do to a severely injured guy - but I did not lose my cool.

My GF finally came over.

A pool of blood was forming and running down the gutter. I didn't know what to do for such a severely injured person - thinking that trying to stem the bleeding from the back of the head might cause brain damage.

So I waited.

Eventually, the Thai security guards pulled the victim up and put him in the back of a Toyota 4x4 pickup truck. I got really pissed at this; could be that the guy was already dead.

Over on ajarn, Phil posted a story recently about getting sick and driving himself to the hospital, reminding me about my long ago experience.

My question is what do you do in an Emergency Situation where you have severely injured victims? Can't recall ever seeing an Ambulance running around in Bangkok, but I've never spent more than 3-4 weeks there at a time.

My wife said that in the countryside, its not uncommon for accident victims are robbed and killed to cover up the robbery.

Is the apparent lack of proper treatment for accident victims a direct result of Thai cultural values? Perhaps its related to Buddhist philosophy is some way?

[NedKelly]

I came across some people standing around a girl lying on the side of the road in Phuket one time. No-one doing anything. Ilooked at her and noticed she was blue around the mouth, so I decided to try and save her, by doing some basic first aid stuff. I put her on her side in recovery position while having her head supported and a big gush of blood and stuff came out of her mouth and she started breathing.....so I figured she was going to have a chance.

She had severla wounds on her head and neck and also a puncture wound to her rib cage area. She had been ridinga bicycle and went off the road into an area of long gras which concealed an unfinished building site......so imagine what was under the grass.......

Anyway she was barely alive when two cops arrived and literally pushed us all out of the way, grabbed her by the shirt and feet and put her in the back of a pick up truck.......for all I know they could have taken her away and raped her and then dumped her body. These guys ignored our screams to stop what they were doing......like we were not even there. Bloody idiots.

[Gazza]

It may sound heartless but, don't ever get involved. You may save a life but you can also be, in the eyes of Thais, the cause of death.

Even if you come across an accident scene and people seem to be ok, don't stop to offer any kind of assistance as you could be falsely accused of causing the accident.

[shopgurl]

Not something that I'm surprised with. I would figure the first reaction would be curiousity, that's what I see whenever there is an accident around here. The probable reason being that I don't believe many people know or are aware of first aid, since it's not a subject that is taught (why is that?)

I think you are right Phormio, I've learned that in any circumstanc, if a victim has been injured especially around the head or back, the victim should not be moved at all until medical help has arrived. But I have seen that this is not the case simply because they don't know better.

So an important reminder....better safe than sorry.

[Gazza]

grabbed her by the shirt and feet and put her in the back of a pick up truck......

That's exactly how they're removed from pick up trucks and placed on gurneys.......by the hospital staff at the Thai Police hospital in Patumwan.

[andy50]

sounds like a great place to live--not!

[Dr. Burrito]

The guy didn't flee the scene and he actually made human contact with the roadkill. ######, that's a huge step-up already. Poor sod probably had to pay a few million for that, whether it was his fault or not.

[Ajarn]

grabbed her by the shirt and feet and put her in the back of a pick up truck......

That's exactly how they're removed from pick up trucks and placed on gurneys.......by the hospital staff at the Thai Police hospital in Patumwan.

Last Friday evening, coming back from Doi Angkang north of Chiang Mai, I happened on an accident that had happened just seconds before my arrival- A motorcyclist, his bike in pieces, was sprawled out unconsious in the road, and some guys had just gotten to him...I stopped next to them and yelled out, 'Pay song Rong Phayabaan mai?'

5 guys lifted him up and they all crawled into my carryboy and I took off for the hospital in Mae Rim, about 10 k's away. I have no idea whether he lived or not, but I know he got the best (and only) help available at that time from the people around...

I don't know what caused the accident, and it didn't matter. Nobody else around had a truck except me, and I wasn't going to just not stop. I'm glad I could offer assistance.

To simply ignore someone in such a situation of real need sounds like the most heartless thing I could imagine. Using an excuse like being worried about being blamed just sounds like a person who doesn't care enough about others. Hope you're not around me, were I to find myself in such a dire situation of need...

[GuestHouse]

To those who advise, don't get involved, I can only wish that if ever they have the missfortune to be in need of help at an accident, everyone who might help just passess on by.

I have stopped at two accidents, one I was unable to give any assistance because the victim was dead, at the second I and others helped someone out of a wreck.

Act according to your concience.

[exotic_princess]

There is some wisdom in not getting involved...especially if you're a foreigner and cannot speak Thai.Personally though I'd stop and help...especially for a person bleeding heavily (not squeamish about blood but the sight of someone being injected makes me faint!)severe blood loss can kill in minutes but I'd never move an injured person.No matter how you justify it...its a fact that the injury will get worse.

[Ajarn]

There is some wisdom in not getting involved...especially if you're a foreigner and cannot speak Thai.

Yes, you're right...Sometimes you can't help.

It's one thing to not stop because you can't help... It's quite another thing to be able to help, and not offer it in such an emergency.

If you live someplace with ambulances and such, of course it's better to wait if you can, but..in the reality here, waiting for 'official' help is not always the best advice, and backboards and such are not available in most of the country. And if the 'officials' do arrive in time to help, they're simply going to load them into a pickup, in most cases. ...

Everyone has a moral obligation to try to help others if they can, in my book.

[Insight]

Torn on this one...

My Thai is shamefully pants so I really don't think I'd be able to offer much assistance, other than the usual pidgeon stuff I speak and lots of pointing, but if somebody was looking seriously worst-for-wear, It'd tear at heartstrings to turn my back.

If I was driving along with my girlfriend and I seen such an accident, there'd be no hesitation in getting involved. Driving alone though, I guess I'll tell you my reaction when it eventually happens as I just don't know right now.

[wolf5370]

My wife says the danger of stopping at accident scenes in the sticks that you were not involved in. She says that sometimes someone will lay in the middle of the lane looking like they have been run down. If you stop, the rest of the brigade pops up and robs you of your possesions, your car and possibly your life.

When I was in the Phillipino capital once (Manila) - I was in a Taxi going down Roxas boulivard (spelling?). In the road, at the side of the lane, was a young girl/boy laying facing away from the traffic. Every car, including the cab, was swerving out to go around her. This is a major road in Manila, and where the tourists, businessmen and rich people travel back and forth along. The driver said in fair English that it is probably a trick; others wait to rob you when you stop.

Sad when people are willing to take advantage of another in such a way. It makes people affraid to help!

[Ajarn]

My wife says the danger of stopping at accident scenes in the sticks that you were not involved in. She says that sometimes someone will lay in the middle of the lane looking like they have been run down. If you stop, the rest of the brigade pops up and robs you of your possesions, your car and possibly your life.

In Thailand? How many times has anyone ever known (vs feared) of that happening here? Once? Twice? Never? I have seen no evidence of that being a realistic ('sometimes') concern or fear here.

Granted, if I was a woman alone, I would certainly want to secure my safety in such a situation, and it's quite possible I might feel it too dangerous to stop and offer help.

Also, besides offering a ride to the hospital, there's probably not much more most people can do, in most cases...Certainly in my case, that was true.

[lingling]

Anyway she was barely alive when two cops arrived and literally pushed us all out of the way, grabbed her by the shirt and feet and put her in the back of a pick up truck.......for all I know they could have taken her away and raped her and then dumped her body. These guys ignored our screams to stop what they were doing......like we were not even there. Bloody idiots.

They were right in ignoring you - this is how accident victims are taken to the hospital. Police, passers-by or voluntary organizations that load them on pickup trucks and take them to the hospital.

[lingling]

My wife said that in the countryside, its not uncommon for accident victims are robbed and killed to cover up the robbery.

Or killed to make it all cheaper...

If say a truck hits a motorbike and there are no witnesses around, it is not uncommon that the driver will back over the victim a second time to finish the job. The reason for this is that it is much cheaper with a dead victim (typically around B50k) than one that survives and accumulate hospital bills.

[Ajarn]

My wife said that in the countryside, its not uncommon for accident victims are robbed and killed to cover up the robbery.

Or killed to make it all cheaper...

If say a truck hits a motorbike and there are no witnesses around, it is not uncommon that the driver will back over the victim a second time to finish the job. The reason for this is that it is much cheaper with a dead victim (typically around B50k) than one that survives and accumulate hospital bills.

Why do you and others say this is common? What stats/experiences to back such claims? Sounds like fear-mongering without the facts, to me.

And, it would not make any sense for the driver to do what you described...Why should he care about whether it's cheaper, or more expensive? Is he now going to turn himself in? Of course not....No witnesses you said. If he killed the guy, it would be to try to rid himself of the only witness..

Common? Come on, lets be real here, na'?

In the situation you described, where the truck is at fault, if the biker lives, you'll likely be liable for the hospital costs and the cost of replacing his bike- assuming nobody has insurance....Maybe some extra compensation for lost work. No Jail, no hassle with cops likely except for a relatively small fine...

If the biker dies, it is common to charge the truck driver with 'Reckless driving, ending in a death' and jail him...Maybe he gets out on bail for 20,000, 50,000, 100,000 baht. Now you have lawyer fees- and don't forget that you'll be expected to pay all costs for dealing with body including funeral costs...Then the question of compensation to his family for the loss of the bread winner- add some more for the mother who lost her support, too... How much are we talking now?

And how much of a fine will the court give you? How much prison time????

That's the real world here.

[slappyharry]

always remember the words in thai, i think my neck or spine is broken so pls dont man handle me onto the back of that pickup, it could save ur life.

[Ronnie 100]

One who gives no assistance should expect no assistance.

[Ajarn]

always remember the words in thai, i think my neck or spine is broken so pls dont man handle me onto the back of that pickup, it could save ur life.

Or kill you.

What would you expect to happen after those words? Get some women to handle you?

[sriracha john]

always remember the words in thai, i think my neck or spine is broken so pls dont man handle me onto the back of that pickup, it could save ur life.

You'll be in for a very, very, very long wait if you insist on a proper backboard accompanioned with correct spinal immobilization prior to being moved. Those items are not available on the normal "snatch and dash" pickup ambulances and even if they were, the staff is not trained on how to apply them properly. Unfortunately, proper EMT protocol and training are not available in the VAST majority of Thailand. It just has to accepted by those that are here. In Thailand, emergency medicine is essentially to simply get you to the hospital as quickly as possible.

[wolf5370]

Why do you and others say this is common? What stats/experiences to back such claims? Sounds like fear-mongering without the facts, to me.

I think, Ajarn, you will find that I and the other poster this comment is pointed at, both stated that 'Our wives said...'.

In my particular post, I stated that this was the belief and that it was sad. I never said it was fact - I do believe that was my point to some degree - that people believe this to be true (myth or fact), it WILL affect how people react to seeing such accident victims (supposed or actual). I also relayed a true story from my time in Phi in which I saw it displayed by, not only the taxi I was travelling in, but a whole stream of traffic going around an apparantly dead/dieing juvenile!

Take your pick on cliches:

"No smoke without fire" and/or "Mud sticks".

[Totster]

Me... I think I'd have to stop and help, I don't think my conscience would allow any different...

... perhaps until I got robbed.... !

I think with regards to being robbed in this way, common sense should prevail... you should be able to read a situation...

totster

[taxexile]

I also relayed a true story from my time in Phi in which I saw it displayed by, not only the taxi I was travelling in, but a whole stream of traffic going around an apparantly dead/dieing juvenile!

not only in thailand , but in the uk last week too.

featured on the news was a clip from a roadside cctv camera that showed an unconscious woman lying in the road and the traffic detouring around her.

she was left untouched for 15 minutes until an ambulance (summoned by the camera watcher) arrived. she was the victim of a hit and run driver.

[Ajarn]

Why do you and others say this is common? What stats/experiences to back such claims? Sounds like fear-mongering without the facts, to me.

I think, Ajarn, you will find that I and the other poster this comment is pointed at, both stated that 'Our wives said...'.

In my particular post, I stated that this was the belief and that it was sad. I never said it was fact - I do believe that was my point to some degree - that people believe this to be true (myth or fact), it WILL affect how people react to seeing such accident victims (supposed or actual). I also relayed a true story from my time in Phi in which I saw it displayed by, not only the taxi I was travelling in, but a whole stream of traffic going around an apparantly dead/dieing juvenile!

Take your pick on cliches:

"No smoke without fire" and/or "Mud sticks".

Simply, in my eyes, I saw you giving unquestioning credence to what 'your wife said'.

I challenged that, based on my experiences, and asked for, hopefully, some ancedotal experience or some real numbers to back your wife's claims. I live here, too, and if there is real enough evidence to indicate it might be a situation such as you described in the Phillipines, maybe in some area like pattaya, or wherever, then I want to be educated about that. I don't want to live in some dream world when it's my safety on the line. I've lived here long enough to know things aren't always the way we perceive them from our own experiences... And, our fears aren't always as justified as we fear, either.

Sorry I didn't explain myself more clearly before

[phormio]

Why do you and others say this is common? What stats/experiences to back such claims? Sounds like fear-mongering without the facts, to me.

I think, Ajarn, you will find that I and the other poster this comment is pointed at, both stated that 'Our wives said...'.

In my particular post, I stated that this was the belief and that it was sad. I never said it was fact - I do believe that was my point to some degree - that people believe this to be true (myth or fact), it WILL affect how people react to seeing such accident victims (supposed or actual). I also relayed a true story from my time in Phi in which I saw it displayed by, not only the taxi I was travelling in, but a whole stream of traffic going around an apparantly dead/dieing juvenile!

Take your pick on cliches:

"No smoke without fire" and/or "Mud sticks".

Simply, in my eyes, I saw you giving unquestioning credence to what 'your wife said'.

I challenged that, based on my experiences, and asked for, hopefully, some ancedotal experience or some real numbers to back your wife's claims. I live here, too, and if there is real enough evidence to indicate it might be a situation such as you described in the Phillipines, maybe in some area like pattaya, or wherever, then I want to be educated about that. I don't want to live in some dream world when it's my safety on the line. I've lived here long enough to know things aren't always the way we perceive them from our own experiences... And, our fears aren't always as justified as we fear, either.

Sorry I didn't explain myself more clearly before

Excellent points here, but my wife is sleeping right now and I'm not going to wake her up (its 6:30 am EST USA) to ask her if its an unsubstantiated belief or if she has knowledge of this kind of thing going on.

My wife's response to the accident also surprised me; at the time of the accident she was my new Thai girlfriend(potentially). She had a degree in Pharmacy from Mahidol university, but didn't know first aid. I jumped up to help(I was on leave from the US Army stationed in South Korea at the time and had some rudimentary first aid training in Infantry school), but my GF's initial response was to do nothing.

I don't think she knew what to do, honestly. But years later she told me she felt bad and wondered if I thought there was anything we could have done for the victim.

Here's what I did do. The next day I went back to the US Embassy on Wireless road and wrote out a suggestion that they should train the security guards in first aid(again they were Thai, couldn't speak English hardly at all, and in retrospect looked like they were more interested in cleaning up a mess, rather than saving somebody's life - got to wonder if the guy had looked caucasian if the response would've been different) .

I returned to South Korea to my new duty post and received a letter from the US dept. of State, surprisingly. They indicated that they did not know the status of the injured man and that they did not have the funds to train the Thai guards in proper first aid.

What about Ambulances in Bangkok? Are there any properly trained EMTs in Bangkok?

[astral]

What about Ambulances in Bangkok? Are there any properly trained EMTs in Bangkok?

In a word NO.

The hospitals do have equipped ambulance, but they do not respond to accidents.

The only service are well intentioned volunteers with pickup trucks,

run by a chinese organisation Sawang Pateep. They have little or no training and

no real equipment.

I would not touch a person injured in an accident, but would give my details as a witness.

I would probably have to go to the local police station a few days later

to talk to police and any insurance adjuster who may be involved.

Only worth trying if you speak pretty good Thai, otherwise stay clear.

Edited October 12, 2004 by astral

[Ajarn]

Why do you and others say this is common? What stats/experiences to back such claims? Sounds like fear-mongering without the facts, to me.

I think, Ajarn, you will find that I and the other poster this comment is pointed at, both stated that 'Our wives said...'.

In my particular post, I stated that this was the belief and that it was sad. I never said it was fact - I do believe that was my point to some degree - that people believe this to be true (myth or fact), it WILL affect how people react to seeing such accident victims (supposed or actual). I also relayed a true story from my time in Phi in which I saw it displayed by, not only the taxi I was travelling in, but a whole stream of traffic going around an apparantly dead/dieing juvenile!

Take your pick on cliches:

"No smoke without fire" and/or "Mud sticks".

Simply, in my eyes, I saw you giving unquestioning credence to what 'your wife said'.

I challenged that, based on my experiences, and asked for, hopefully, some ancedotal experience or some real numbers to back your wife's claims. I live here, too, and if there is real enough evidence to indicate it might be a situation such as you described in the Phillipines, maybe in some area like pattaya, or wherever, then I want to be educated about that. I don't want to live in some dream world when it's my safety on the line. I've lived here long enough to know things aren't always the way we perceive them from our own experiences... And, our fears aren't always as justified as we fear, either.

Sorry I didn't explain myself more clearly before

Excellent points here, but my wife is sleeping right now and I'm not going to wake her up (its 6:30 am EST USA) to ask her if its an unsubstantiated belief or if she has knowledge of this kind of thing going on.

My wife's response to the accident also surprised me; at the time of the accident she was my new Thai girlfriend(potentially). She had a degree in Pharmacy from Mahidol university, but didn't know first aid. I jumped up to help(I was on leave from the US Army stationed in South Korea at the time and had some rudimentary first aid training in Infantry school), but my GF's initial response was to do nothing.

I don't think she knew what to do, honestly. But years later she told me she felt bad and wondered if I thought there was anything we could have done for the victim.

Here's what I did do. The next day I went back to the US Embassy on Wireless road and wrote out a suggestion that they should train the security guards in first aid(again they were Thai, couldn't speak English hardly at all, and in retrospect looked like they were more interested in cleaning up a mess, rather than saving somebody's life - got to wonder if the guy had looked caucasian if the response would've been different) .

I returned to South Korea to my new duty post and received a letter from the US dept. of State, surprisingly. They indicated that they did not know the status of the injured man and that they did not have the funds to train the Thai guards in proper first aid.

What about Ambulances in Bangkok? Are there any properly trained EMTs in Bangkok?

Hey it's great you got a response! At least the idea has been floated- and hopefully not forgotten... I think giving them that kind of feedback is a very good idea, even if it's not followed up on right away.

Ambulances in Bkk will respond to traffic accidents-Astral take note- but they must be called directly, from what I was told by the Bumrungrad Hospital ambulance service, whom I just called (02) 667-1000... 800 baht in the central downtown area. Each ambulance has a nurse. Even Chiang Mai has a few...Still, across the board, not nearly good enough, I feel...

[otherstuff1957]

I asked my wife what she would do if she saw an accident & she said that she would call the police. Of course, she has an Uncle, a Brother-in-law and other relatives who are policemen, so she has a more positive attitude towards them than most people.

I always have helped and always will.

[phormio]

What about Ambulances in Bangkok? Are there any properly trained EMTs in Bangkok?

In a word NO.

The hospitals do have equipped ambulance, but they do not respond to accidents.

The only service are well intentioned volunteers with pickup trucks,

run by a chinese organisation Sawang Pateep. They have little or no training and

no real equipment.

I would not touch a person injured in an accident, but would give my details as a witness.

I would probably have to go to the local police station a few days later

to talk to police and any insurance adjuster who may be involved.

Only worth trying if you speak pretty good Thai, otherwise stay clear.

Why Not?

Is it Thai world-view beliefs in Karma Fate?

Is it elitism, only the well-off get good care?

I would have thought that at least in Bangkok they would at least be moving

towards a basic service such as this. Seems like an obvious area for

development, only take some investment of time and moderate amounts of money.