Abnormal Oil Consumption

[hans1977]

To those experienced in advanced car repairs,

About four mounths ago i bought a secondhand car for my wife to use when she goes to work.

The water leaked out of the radiator at the very first time she went, and she didn't notice the temperature going up until it was too late. So the engine got overheated and the cylinder head got warped.

The seller took the car to his friend for repair, which was cheap at first glance, but the fix turned out to be absolutely useless. After just a few weeks, i observed the signs of water comming into the engine from the cooling system.

At this time i had got to know about a better place to repair my car, so i went there to see if they really were any better. I got the car back and everything seamed ok for a few weeks until the engine started to consume oil instead.

I went back to the place where i got my car repaired and asked them for advices. They said i could continue to drive and refilling the oil (and change the spark plug on the failing cylinder), or let them open the engine again.

I let them open the engine again and they told me that one oil ring was broken. They recommended me to change all the piston rings, so i did that.

I was driving about 1500 km before i saw it had started to consume oil again. It seams to be on one cylinder in particular (another cylinder), and i have filled about one liter of oil since the repair after about 2500 km of driving.

Anyway, i went back to the repair place to ask them for advices again. They now say that the engine usually consume some oil after changing the piston rings, and they also thinks that there might be a leak where the valves are fitted.

They have told me that they will respond about their repair until 5000 km after the repair, so i will go back to let them have a look somewhere just before that, and i would like to be prepared before the check-up.

- What do you think about all this?

- Are the repair place right about what they have told me?

- Has the engine reached its end of life?

- Should i look for a replacement engine instead of repairing the old engine?

- Do i have a reasonable chance to get an advanced repair, like this one, properly done i Thailand?

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,

Hans

[Thaiboxer]

A similar thing happened to me years ago with a Honda Prelude. My engine overheated when the water pump stopped working. The vibration damper had broken off which also broke part of the crankshaft. The engine was repaired and to my knowledge, the piston rings were replaced. The thing began burning oil not too long after that. I learned that when cylinders wear, they don't rear in a round fashion, but rather in an ovular fashion. Piston rings are round, so even new ones won't seal the cylinders. To make the cylinders round again would require an engine machine shop to bore them out to a slightly larger diameter and then install bigger pistons/rings. This is a major job and your used vehicle may not be worth it. Perhaps a secondhand engine would be your best option. I have one of those in my old Toyota now and the thing burns no oil despite having a ton of kilometers on it.

[hans1977]

Thanks!

Yes, i know that the cylinders tend to get oval, and i asked the guy who repaired the engine about this. He said that my cylinders were actually quite round, and that he did not decide to go into the over-sizing procedure because they were. But i cannot be sure he is right, of course, and that is my problem now as well as all the other times when i simply do not have the option to do things myself.

Anyway, what was your decition about the Honda? Did you live with the problem, or did you get into over-sizing the pistons?

/Hans

A similar thing happened to me years ago with a Honda Prelude. My engine overheated when the water pump stopped working. The vibration damper had broken off which also broke part of the crankshaft. The engine was repaired and to my knowledge, the piston rings were replaced. The thing began burning oil not too long after that. I learned that when cylinders wear, they don't rear in a round fashion, but rather in an ovular fashion. Piston rings are round, so even new ones won't seal the cylinders. To make the cylinders round again would require an engine machine shop to bore them out to a slightly larger diameter and then install bigger pistons/rings. This is a major job and your used vehicle may not be worth it. Perhaps a secondhand engine would be your best option. I have one of those in my old Toyota now and the thing burns no oil despite having a ton of kilometers on it.

[Thaiboxer]

I just kept the Honda going; couldn't afford major machine shop work like that in the USA. I had to add a quart of oil every two weeks or so, but other than that the car ran ok. I ended up selling it to a neighbor who owns a used car dealership...a year later and he couldn't resell it. I wonder why!

[H2oDunc]

Either of you guys want to buy a car????

The Mechanics are giving you the runaround mate youve bought a TURKEY!!!!!!!!!!! I lved the bit abut the cylinders being round ha ha ha a classic.

Most of my family was involved in the motor trade back home and you would not believe how guillable ( read stupid ) people are. Your best bet would be to try and sell it to somebody you dont know

[hans1977]

Well, i genuinely believe that the very reason why the car business, and secondhand car business in particular, is so awful is the attitude of the people running it; and i think that your reply serves as a good example to prove my point of view.

/Hans

Either of you guys want to buy a car????

The Mechanics are giving you the runaround mate youve bought a TURKEY!!!!!!!!!!! I lved the bit abut the cylinders being round ha ha ha a classic.

Most of my family was involved in the motor trade back home and you would not believe how guillable ( read stupid ) people are. Your best bet would be to try and sell it to somebody you dont know

[cali4995]

Hans1977, when piston rings are replaced, it is always necessary to resurface the cylinder walls. When

going with original size, this would be done by honing, using fine-grade stones perhaps mounted in

a drill to etch the proper cross-hatch pattern so the new rings would break-in properly.

If there is considerable wear or damage (which can be measured with a dial indicator) then Yes, the

cylinders can be bored .030-.060 over the orig size and new pistons and rings fitted. Still, the honing

procedure must be performed for break-in. So, whatever method they used didn't work correctly.

The oil is either leaking externally, through crankshaft seals or various engine cover gaskets or it's being

burned internally through bad rings or leaking valve oil seals. At the present time you now have so many

unknowns with these various problems it really will require comprehensive assessment.

As Thaiboxer suggests, unless you do it yourself, it's quite difficult to find a quality shop that will do the

repairs correctly in a manner that you can depend on. It's almost easier (and cheaper) finding a sound 2nd

hand engine that doesn't have all the issues and hopefully you should get a minimum guarantee with that.

As H2oDunc says, it does seem like you're getting a bit of a runaround and these people aren't communicating

well with you about what's actually wrong, or in fact the unit is riddled with problems. Sadly, this is why 2nd hand

vehicles with unknown history can be such headaches. No easy way out of this mess I'm afraid.

[hans1977]

Thanks for your detailed answer!

I don't think the leaks are external anymore. The work they did seams to be very nicely done from that point of view.

Using your replay as a reference would almost for sure point out the fact that the cylinders has not been through honing, before the new piston rings were fitted, as the cause of the problem, i think.

So if i go on using the car like this, the engine will get burned internally. Right?

I have no idea on where to go to end this problem. Going back to have it done over again doesn't seam to be an option, and buying a secondhand engine would be to join a second lottery...

It's quite sad, actually, because if i didn't know about the oil consumption, i would think the car is perfect! It has got good performance and the engine runs nice and smoothly.

/Hans

Hans1977, when piston rings are replaced, it is always necessary to resurface the cylinder walls. When

going with original size, this would be done by honing, using fine-grade stones perhaps mounted in

a drill to etch the proper cross-hatch pattern so the new rings would break-in properly.

If there is considerable wear or damage (which can be measured with a dial indicator) then Yes, the

cylinders can be bored .030-.060 over the orig size and new pistons and rings fitted. Still, the honing

procedure must be performed for break-in. So, whatever method they used didn't work correctly.

The oil is either leaking externally, through crankshaft seals or various engine cover gaskets or it's being

burned internally through bad rings or leaking valve oil seals. At the present time you now have so many

unknowns with these various problems it really will require comprehensive assessment.

As Thaiboxer suggests, unless you do it yourself, it's quite difficult to find a quality shop that will do the

repairs correctly in a manner that you can depend on. It's almost easier (and cheaper) finding a sound 2nd

hand engine that doesn't have all the issues and hopefully you should get a minimum guarantee with that.

As H2oDunc says, it does seem like you're getting a bit of a runaround and these people aren't communicating

well with you about what's actually wrong, or in fact the unit is riddled with problems. Sadly, this is why 2nd hand

vehicles with unknown history can be such headaches. No easy way out of this mess I'm afraid.

[Thaiboxer]

If the car runs smoothly, then perhaps you can just deal with the oil consumption by adding a bit now and then. This is what I did with my old Honda until my father gave us his Dodge Caravan. Once the engine you have now gives out, you can then go for a secondhand engine. They're not too expensive and there is a place near the Bangna-Trat Expressway in Bangkok that has TONS of car parts, engines included.

[cali4995]

Hans1977, From what you said in your initial post, the engine has now been disassembled

multiple times by various parties already so it's difficult to know exactly what you have, and

further, it's still not right with one of the spark plugs getting oil-fouled. Whether this was

caused by the initial overheating or ineffectual subsequent repairs who knows. The problem

with just continuing to add oil is that when the spark plug for this one cylinder fouls out with oil,

you will lose the power for that cylinder, so rough running, possibly stalling, probably not how

you want your wife to be driving around. I suppose it all depends on the severity of the oil

consumption problem. If it's something you can live with and the vehicle is reliable enough then

I'm sure you'd rather not sink additional funds into the car if it's not necessary. So I guess wait

for the next 5,000km to pass and then evaluate where you are then at that point.No easy answer.

[hans1977]

Ok, i'll probably try to live with it as long as it's continuing to run well and no one manages to convince me to do something else about it. After all, filling a liter of oil every 2000 kilometers, or so, and cleaning the spark plug every 1000 kilometers, or so, would not be too bad compared to spending tens of thousands of baths on a repair that just _might_ solve the problem...

My friend just told me that he went through a similar procedure with his car once. He said that the car used to consume about one liter per 1000 kilometers without any other signs of leaks, but suddenly it just stopped consuming the oil by itself. He said he asked various people for an explaination, but no one could ever give him any real answer. Do you think that might happen in my case as well? I mean somewhere in the future my cylinders and new piston rings should wear together provided that they wouldn't break before that?

And one more question to you (and everyone else reading this); do you know of any repair place in the Chonburi area that you feel confident to recommend because of their skills?

/Hans

Hans1977, From what you said in your initial post, the engine has now been disassembled

multiple times by various parties already so it's difficult to know exactly what you have, and

further, it's still not right with one of the spark plugs getting oil-fouled. Whether this was

caused by the initial overheating or ineffectual subsequent repairs who knows. The problem

with just continuing to add oil is that when the spark plug for this one cylinder fouls out with oil,

you will lose the power for that cylinder, so rough running, possibly stalling, probably not how

you want your wife to be driving around. I suppose it all depends on the severity of the oil

consumption problem. If it's something you can live with and the vehicle is reliable enough then

I'm sure you'd rather not sink additional funds into the car if it's not necessary. So I guess wait

for the next 5,000km to pass and then evaluate where you are then at that point.No easy answer.

[hans1977]

Thanks! I'll most likely go into oil filling and spark plug cleaning...

/Hans

If the car runs smoothly, then perhaps you can just deal with the oil consumption by adding a bit now and then. This is what I did with my old Honda until my father gave us his Dodge Caravan. Once the engine you have now gives out, you can then go for a secondhand engine. They're not too expensive and there is a place near the Bangna-Trat Expressway in Bangkok that has TONS of car parts, engines included.

[cali4995]

Hans1977, I'm no expert, I've got some experience with used cars, enough to know that when

folks go to such elaborate lengths to conceal damage or hide problems, it just becomes a train

wreck for the next person. Even a seasoned pair of eyes can't always spot accident damage or

engine conditions that aren't so easily seen, so it could have happened to anyone. I'm kind of

thinking it was leaking coolant when they sold it to you and it was a little sneaky not telling.

What you're proposing to do is probably the best measure. Continue to drive it and evaluate is

it losing coolant? Is engine oil being burned? Does the vehicle continue to be reliable or is the

spark plug fouling causing problems? When you install new piston rings, there is a break-in

period just like a new car, where the parts mate together if you will. I suspect why the garage

told you to come back in 5k km. So, Yes, it's possible things may improve over time.

[Gary A]

I would never spend money on an engine that has been run hot and then starts using oil. Engines today are throw away because of the decent used engines being imported from Japan. Scrap that engine and put in a decent used one if the car is worth it.

[hans1977]

I think that the seller was more optimistic than i expect a seller to be, and i should have checked the car more, but i suppose i will never know if he genuinely thought the car was alright or not. What i do know is that i rushed with my desition, and i did that because of my concerns about my wife's 40 km per day on her motorbike for work. So, yes, i've made a misstake by buying this car, but i'm nevertheless determined to proceed as wisely as i can from here...

The cylinders have not been through honing before the engine was assembled with the new piston rings. How to you think that will effect the abillity for the cylinders and piston/piston rings to wear together?

Thanks for sharing your points of view!

/Hans

Hans1977, I'm no expert, I've got some experience with used cars, enough to know that when

folks go to such elaborate lengths to conceal damage or hide problems, it just becomes a train

wreck for the next person. Even a seasoned pair of eyes can't always spot accident damage or

engine conditions that aren't so easily seen, so it could have happened to anyone. I'm kind of

thinking it was leaking coolant when they sold it to you and it was a little sneaky not telling.

What you're proposing to do is probably the best measure. Continue to drive it and evaluate is

it losing coolant? Is engine oil being burned? Does the vehicle continue to be reliable or is the

spark plug fouling causing problems? When you install new piston rings, there is a break-in

period just like a new car, where the parts mate together if you will. I suspect why the garage

told you to come back in 5k km. So, Yes, it's possible things may improve over time.

[hans1977]

But a used engine is still a potential problem, and it may or may not be much better than the one i already have. I think the problem would be to know if it's really decent or not. It might appear to be perfect, just like my engine did for the first 1500 kilomenters after repair, and then you're suddenly back to square one again.

My friend bought one of those used engines last month, and he has already got problems with the "new" one.

I'll keep the used engines in mind, and who knows, someone might be proud enouogh about their business to give me a warranty that says they will keep on changing my engine for free until i have been able to use it for 10k kilometers without any problems?

/Hans

I would never spend money on an engine that has been run hot and then starts using oil. Engines today are throw away because of the decent used engines being imported from Japan. Scrap that engine and put in a decent used one if the car is worth it.

[Thaiboxer]

Given that labor is cheap here, it may be worth it to have a secondhand engine opened up by a good mechanic and checked over....not just a visual inspection, but with proper guages (caliper guages, etc).

[hans1977]

Yes, but to know where to go to feel sure that the engine is still fine after that...

/Hans

Given that labor is cheap here, it may be worth it to have a secondhand engine opened up by a good mechanic and checked over....not just a visual inspection, but with proper guages (caliper guages, etc).

[cali4995]

Hans, here's a video clip below which quickly shows the procedure and you get a look at the general

tool I was talking about (the abrasives stones mounted in an electric drill). replacing piston rings

requires major engine disassembly. even here, it must have cost you a few baht to have that done.

Resurfacing the cylinder walls (honing or glaze breaking) before reassembling the engine would be standard

procedure, if you're saying it wasn't done I'm not sure why that would be the case but the result would

probably be the new piston rings not sealing correctly as well. Is there something you're not telling us?

Yes, there gets to be a point where the beast you have possibly has less problems than a new used unknown

unit where you may just have to start all over again. Cylinder sealing can be checked with a compression

tester ( an inexpensive tool available at most auto part shops) I mean there are ways of ascertaining

the general condition of what you've got there.

I understand where you're at, you purchased the thing used and probably don't want to sink a whole lot more

cash into it so evaluate the present condition and determine if additonal repairs are necessary. Some of this

transcends what you can do in your driveway so you do need to find a good competent shop to assist.

[hans1977]

Looks like anyone with just a little bit more than just half a brain could do honing...

The reason why the honing was not done is that the guy in the repair place is sure that genuine replacement parts today are manufactured in such a way that it in this case it was not necesary to do honing. I think he means that my cylinders are circular enough... Nevertheless i felt (and still feel) dissapointed that he didn't do it for me.

Do you know what that compression test equipment is called in Thai? If you could write it in Thai, it would be perfect!

/Hans

Hans, here's a video clip below which quickly shows the procedure and you get a look at the general

tool I was talking about (the abrasives stones mounted in an electric drill). replacing piston rings

requires major engine disassembly. even here, it must have cost you a few baht to have that done.

Resurfacing the cylinder walls (honing or glaze breaking) before reassembling the engine would be standard

procedure, if you're saying it wasn't done I'm not sure why that would be the case but the result would

probably be the new piston rings not sealing correctly as well. Is there something you're not telling us?

Yes, there gets to be a point where the beast you have possibly has less problems than a new used unknown

unit where you may just have to start all over again. Cylinder sealing can be checked with a compression

tester ( an inexpensive tool available at most auto part shops) I mean there are ways of ascertaining

the general condition of what you've got there.

I understand where you're at, you purchased the thing used and probably don't want to sink a whole lot more

cash into it so evaluate the present condition and determine if additonal repairs are necessary. Some of this

transcends what you can do in your driveway so you do need to find a good competent shop to assist.

[cali4995]

Well Hans, it isn't so much about the cylinders being perfectly circular as it is the actual

"finish" of the cylinder walls. After considerable mileage, cylinder wall finish is extremely

smooth, almost like a mirror. If I had to guess, I would think perhaps it wasn't physically

convenient (maybe the engine was still in the vehicle) when the replacement was done.

Another issue is at the top of the cylinder often you're left with a "ridge" a centimeter or

less of unworn area where the piston rings never travel. If this also isn't removed and

refinished it can lead to damaged / broken new piston rings upon engine run-up. It seems

easy but if you haven't got someone to explain, learning by mistake is often expensive.

Here's a picture below of some compression testers, it isn't rocket science, you push it

into the spark plug hole and crank the engine over a few revolutions. Typically, pressures

will be in the range 170-190 psi. With valvetrain or piston problems, notably less.

http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Tool-Shop/Compression-Testers

[Thaiboxer]

Another thing to consider is that when an engine is reassembled, it must be done in a dirt free environment. Even a tiny speck of dirt on a cylinder wall can wreak havoc. Some of the shops I've seen here are far from clean! As said before, there's also the ridge left over from where the piston rings never made it, and that must be removed to give the cylinder even dimensions.

[hans1977]

Thanks! I wonder if they have seen that kind of thing in any of the nearby garages here?

The engine was lifted out of the car where they started to work on it. I went there to have a look, when the engine was disassembled, before they went to buy the required spare parts.

/Hans

Well Hans, it isn't so much about the cylinders being perfectly circular as it is the actual

"finish" of the cylinder walls. After considerable mileage, cylinder wall finish is extremely

smooth, almost like a mirror. If I had to guess, I would think perhaps it wasn't physically

convenient (maybe the engine was still in the vehicle) when the replacement was done.

Another issue is at the top of the cylinder often you're left with a "ridge" a centimeter or

less of unworn area where the piston rings never travel. If this also isn't removed and

refinished it can lead to damaged / broken new piston rings upon engine run-up. It seems

easy but if you haven't got someone to explain, learning by mistake is often expensive.

Here's a picture below of some compression testers, it isn't rocket science, you push it

into the spark plug hole and crank the engine over a few revolutions. Typically, pressures

will be in the range 170-190 psi. With valvetrain or piston problems, notably less.

http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Tool-Shop/Compression-Testers

[hans1977]

I wonder how there can be so many cars on the streets in Thailand...

/Hans

Another thing to consider is that when an engine is reassembled, it must be done in a dirt free environment. Even a tiny speck of dirt on a cylinder wall can wreak havoc. Some of the shops I've seen here are far from clean! As said before, there's also the ridge left over from where the piston rings never made it, and that must be removed to give the cylinder even dimensions.

[cali4995]

Much of it depends on the severity of the wear in the cylinder. Honing removes a miniscule amount

of metal, maybe a few ten thousandths of an inch. If the wear is slight and you can use original

dimension piston rings this is an option for an economical rebuild.

If however you have deep gouging in the cylinder walls, or excessive wear from milieage you can

get on oval shaped cylinder from the nature of the throw of the crankshaft. Here, it is necessary to

machine a new oversize bore maybe 30 or 60 thousandths over. New pistons and rings.

Who knows what they did, if you've only got a little 4 piston engine and one of the cylinders is down

on compression, you'd know it. They're obviously unsmooth, shaking and acting ornery. If it's just a

little oil blow-by maybe you can live with it. We've pretty much flogged this topic to death haven't we?

[hans1977]

Yes, sort of...

I know that the odds are against me in this, but I've still a small piece of hope left over, and at the end of the day the scrap yard is just over the street from where i live...

/Hans

Much of it depends on the severity of the wear in the cylinder. Honing removes a miniscule amount

of metal, maybe a few ten thousandths of an inch. If the wear is slight and you can use original

dimension piston rings this is an option for an economical rebuild.

If however you have deep gouging in the cylinder walls, or excessive wear from milieage you can

get on oval shaped cylinder from the nature of the throw of the crankshaft. Here, it is necessary to

machine a new oversize bore maybe 30 or 60 thousandths over. New pistons and rings.

Who knows what they did, if you've only got a little 4 piston engine and one of the cylinders is down

on compression, you'd know it. They're obviously unsmooth, shaking and acting ornery. If it's just a

little oil blow-by maybe you can live with it. We've pretty much flogged this topic to death haven't we?