Has Living In Thailand Made You More Or Less Nationalistic?

[jstumbo]

Israel, now there is a perfect example of American hypocrisy and the dangers of nationalism.

There you have a country where which most agree has nuclear weapons.

They have already shown their contempt of UN mandates.

Yet there is no complaint.

Blatant double standards.

Hypocrisy, huh?

Does anyone seriously believe Israel would ever use its nukes aggressively? Of course they would never do so.

Yet Iran has pledged to destroy Israel. Such a regime must be stopped from acquiring this technology. No hypocrisy whatsoever.

Iran is just grandstanding for the arabs. The fact that Israel constantly violates UN mandates is appalling and not a sign of a stable state. Who knows what they would do if they believed they were under attack. When I was younger I had a lot of sympathy for the Zionist cause. I was a big Leon Uris fan. In recent years though it has become obvious that Israel has gotten out of control and needs to be reigned in. I don't believe that Israel will always have the same support in America, and I don't think America will always be able to give this support. Israel must do more to help peace- building walls and illegal settlements will not achieve this.

Iran is not Arab, it is Persian.

I do not like it that Iran violates the UN mandates either. I think they should have sanctions to force them.

I hope that they do not always have the same support in the US.

I have no problems with walls. Building them on the 1967 borders is fine with me. Their country, build the walls if they want, just do not build them in the occupied territories. Remove all the settlements. What are they thinking when they continue to do this? Building new settlements now just shows the rest of the world that they are not serious about peace.

[Naam]

Pretty sure it was a UN force that was in Korea, with the approval of the government of South Korea. Pretty sure that the US was in South Vietnam with the approval of the South Vietnamese government.

no doubt about that. but it should be added "pretty sure with the approval of puppets" which were put in power by the United States.

[garro]

Israel, now there is a perfect example of American hypocrisy and the dangers of nationalism.

There you have a country where which most agree has nuclear weapons.

They have already shown their contempt of UN mandates.

Yet there is no complaint.

Blatant double standards.

Hypocrisy, huh?

Does anyone seriously believe Israel would ever use its nukes aggressively? Of course they would never do so.

Yet Iran has pledged to destroy Israel. Such a regime must be stopped from acquiring this technology. No hypocrisy whatsoever.

Iran is just grandstanding for the arabs. The fact that Israel constantly violates UN mandates is appalling and not a sign of a stable state. Who knows what they would do if they believed they were under attack. When I was younger I had a lot of sympathy for the Zionist cause. I was a big Leon Uris fan. In recent years though it has become obvious that Israel has gotten out of control and needs to be reigned in. I don't believe that Israel will always have the same support in America, and I don't think America will always be able to give this support. Israel must do more to help peace- building walls and illegal settlements will not achieve this.

Iran is not Arab, it is Persian.

I do not like it that Iran violates the UN mandates either. I think they should have sanctions to force them.

I hope that they do not always have the same support in the US.

I have no problems with walls. Building them on the 1967 borders is fine with me. Their country, build the walls if they want, just do not build them in the occupied territories. Remove all the settlements. What are they thinking when they continue to do this? Building new settlements now just shows the rest of the world that they are not serious about peace.

Do you read other people's post?

I said they were grandstanding for the arabs, I never said they were Arab.

Sorry but I don't understand the rest of your post.

What support does Iran have in the US?

Edited April 20, 2008 by garro

[Naam]

I have no problems with walls. Building them on the 1967 borders is fine with me. Their country, build the walls if they want, just do not build them in the occupied territories. Remove all the settlements. What are they thinking when they continue to do this? Building new settlements now just shows the rest of the world that they are not serious about peace.

we are in agreement!

[Jingthing]

"the obliteration of Israel" or any evidence to suggest that would ever happen, do you think Iranians are all whacked out cavemen or something?

I have had Iranians friends and lovers, and went to school with a son of someone high in the Shah of Iran's regime so of course I don't think Iranians are cavemen. Actually, I hope for peace with Iran. But their current leader who denies the holocaust, who is blatantly anti-semitic, who allows executions of gay people even when he denies their existence in his country, and has indeed made very aggressive threats against Israel ("Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out."), their ELECTED leader is whacked out. OK, so is Bush, but we will fix that soon.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Jingthing

[jstumbo]

Didn't the UK appease Germany during the beginnings of WWII? Didn't they say that it was OK if they took Poland/Austria because it did not concern them. That it was historically part of Germany anyway? French tried to talk, but look what it got them. If the other person does not care what you have to say, you can not talk your way to a solution.

let facts rule! the UK did not appease Germany when WWII started. fact is that Chamberlain (reluctantly) let Hitler annex the area "Sudetenland" in (then) Czechoslovakia where an overwhelming majority of Germans lived since centuries. that was one year before Germany attacked Poland and started WWII.

Sorry, not my history. Being from Germany, I believe you. I knew that Poland was the first, but though I also knew that there was some small part that was even before Poland. Just thought it was in Austria not Czechoslovakia. So England appeased Germany and did not try to prevent Germany from invading and taking over part of Czechoslovakia. I am sure that wet Hitler's appetite for Poland and the rest. After Poland, what did the rest of Europe do? Nothing. No body gave a sh*t until it came the time for their country to be attacked. Then they wanted other people to come to their aid.

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has offered the Palestinians a homeland since they have been a nation and have been turned down numerous times. The rather obvious truth is that the Palestinians have no interest in anything other than pushing Israel into the sea and anyone who says otherwise is either a liar, a dupe or just plain stupid.

Yes, Israel built a wall to stop terrorists from blowing up innocent, men women a children, and it is working. Should they just allow these nuts to keep slaughtering innocent citizens?

Yes, they keep building settlements to show the Palestinians what will happen if they refuse to make peace. It is called the carrot and the stick approach and it often seems to work when both parties have enough brains to compromise. The Arabs have lost every single war against Israel including the first one when they had little help, but the Palestinians don't seem to get it.

Israel is tough because it has no other choice. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and are hated by all of the Arab "brothers" who just use them as chips against Israel. If they want peace, they might vote for someone other than Hammas who are terrorists who won't even recognize that Israel exists.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Naam]

Actually, I hope for peace with Iran. But their current leader...

Ahmadinejdad is in my view a sorry asshol_e who likes to talk shit whenever it suits him. but perhaps it's news too many that his power is rather limited and he should not be called "leader". the real political power is with the rather moderate Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei and a bunch of religious chaps who support him.

[garro]

Israel has offered the Palestinians a homeland since they have been a nation and have been turned down numerous times. The rather obvious truth is that the Palestinians have no interest in anything other than pushing Israel into the sea and anyone who says otherwise is either a liar, a dupe or just plain stupid.

Yes, they built a wall to stop terrorists from blowing up innocent, men women a children, and it is working. Should they just allow these nuts to keep slaughtering innocent citizens?

Yes, they keep building settlements to show the Palestinians what will happen if they refuse to make peace. It is called the carrot and the stick approach and it often seems to work when both parties have enough brains to compromise. The Arabs have lost every single war against Israel including the first one when they had little help, but the Palestinians don't seem to get it.

Israel is tough because it has no other choice. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and are hated by all of the Arab "brothers" who just use them as chips against Israel. If they want peace, they might vote for someone other than Hammas who are terrorist who won't even recognize that Israel exists.

So basically your argument is that Israel is above international law.

The people of Northern Ireland have also chosen to put terrorists into power so will they be punished next?

[Naam]

Israel has offered the Palestinians a homeland...

in Madagascar or the Easter Islands?

[Naam]

Israel is tough because it has no other choice. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and are hated by all of the Arab "brothers" who just use them as chips against Israel.

true! them bloody Ayrabs hate the Palestinians as well as the Israelis because in Eretz Yisrael and Palestine they got all that oil and the Ayrabs have none

[Xangsamhua]

I think that this lovely SE Asian nation where I am living has some of the absolutely stupidest, silliest, most illogical policies I have ever seen.

I've become more reconciled to some of the bizarre propositions of Thai politicians and bureaucrats since looking at some of the proposals of the 20/20 forum held in Canberra over the weekend. A thousand leaders and representatives from various interest areas formed 48(?) groups and came up with proposals to make Australia a better place. An unashamedly biased selection of some is found at http://alsblog.wordpress.com/

Having said that, I think Oz is a pretty decent country to live in. I don't think I'm any more or less nationalistic for all the years I've spent as an expat.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Xangsamhua

[jstumbo]

I am only aware of one country that has ever resorted to nuclear weapons.

Of course. And if you study history, there was a justification and it was in a time of total war. Whether or not that decision saved many more lives than it took (which I think) is a matter of historical debate.

It saved many more lives.

With the invasion of Okinawa over 140,000 civilians died, 66,000 Japanese soldiers and 12,000 US soldiers. This is just for a single island. Around 220,000 people killed and many more injured.

Around 220,000 people died within the first year of the bombings. More afterward because of the radiation. Maybe 500,000 in total? How many would have been killed if the allies had to invade each and every island? Probably a magnitude more.

Plus these cities were legitimate targets. These were major production sites for the Japanese war machine. That is why they were chosen as target in the first place. You have to remember that this was not a time of smart bombs and cruise missiles. In order to destroy these weapon plants there would have had to be wave after wave of bombers, destroying most of the city with conventional bombs instead.

Japan could have surrendered after the first attack and saved many lives, but they would not do that. It was only until after the second one that they decided that it was useless.

Edited April 20, 2008 by jstumbo

[Ulysses G.]

If people weren't so nationalistic there would be no wars. People who see themselves as members of the human population, instead of a countries population, are far less likely to invade, rape, torture, humiliate, and murder. That is my view. Nationalism only really serves the interest of a small elite.

You are echoing the lyrics of a dreamer, who was assassinated:

Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll join us

And the world will be as one

I'm a big Lennon fan - I love his music - but he he wrote about peace because it was fashionable at the time. He was mostly an obnoxious bully, not a "dreamer".

[Ulysses G.]

Israel is tough because it has no other choice. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and are hated by all of the Arab "brothers" who just use them as chips against Israel.

true! them bloody Ayrabs hate the Palestinians as well as the Israelis because in Eretz Yisrael and Palestine they got all that oil and the Ayrabs have none

Actually, it's because they are too stupid to know when to quit. There is plenty of room, but no welcome mat for them in any surrounding Arab countries.

[Ulysses G.]

I understand that you have your reasons for sympathizing with Israel. I think though, if you could step back and look at the what is happening just as a human (and not as a Jew or an American) you would agree that Israel is not doing itself any favours by its actions.

They are left no choice but to act as they do if they want to survive. It is quite easy for those who would love to see them wiped out suggest they just bend over and take it up the keister like "nice guys", but they already tried that in World War 2.

[Naam]

Israel is tough because it has no other choice. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and are hated by all of the Arab "brothers" who just use them as chips against Israel.

true! them bloody Ayrabs hate the Palestinians as well as the Israelis because in Eretz Yisrael and Palestine they got all that oil and the Ayrabs have none

Actually, it's because they are too stupid to know when to quit. There is plenty of room, but no welcome mat for them in any surrounding Arab countries.

that "Falastinis" are not really liked in some other arab countries is a fact and has it's special reasons. but why should there be room in other countries then their own, pray tell?

[garro]

I understand that you have your reasons for sympathizing with Israel. I think though, if you could step back and look at the what is happening just as a human (and not as a Jew or an American) you would agree that Israel is not doing itself any favours by its actions.

They are left no choice but to act as they do if they want to survive. It is quite easy for those who would love to see them wiped out suggest they just bend over and take it up the keister like "nice guys", but they already tried that in World War 2.

So you are suggesting that those who would criticise Israel's behaviour are Nazis.

How novel

The appalling acts that occurred in WW2 does not give Zionists a free pass to do what they want.

[Ulysses G.]

that "Falastinis" are not really liked in some other arab countries is a fact and has it's special reasons. but why should there be room in other countries then their own, pray tell?

Because they lost their country in a war which they and their Arab bretheren started and every time they are offered a new one in trade for peace, they turn it down.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

I understand that you have your reasons for sympathizing with Israel. I think though, if you could step back and look at the what is happening just as a human (and not as a Jew or an American) you would agree that Israel is not doing itself any favours by its actions.

They are left no choice but to act as they do if they want to survive. It is quite easy for those who would love to see them wiped out suggest they just bend over and take it up the keister like "nice guys", but they already tried that in World War 2.

So you are suggesting that those who would criticise Israel's behaviour are Nazis.

Actually, you came up with that one on your own.

I don't think that it is too far from the truth though.

[Naam]

I understand that you have your reasons for sympathizing with Israel. I think though, if you could step back and look at the what is happening just as a human (and not as a Jew or an American) you would agree that Israel is not doing itself any favours by its actions.

They are left no choice but to act as they do if they want to survive. It is quite easy for those who would love to see them wiped out suggest they just bend over and take it up the keister like "nice guys", but they already tried that in World War 2.

Israel can't survive without kibbuzims on palestine soil! it is therefore mandatory that another 312 settlements are built, enclosed by high concrete walls, controlled access roads, cutting off falastini farmers from their land, water supply and their relatives. what are these alien Ayrabs anyway doing in the promised land? can't they read what GOD has decided some milleniae ago? you mean they can't read aramaeic? it's there problem that they are not educated!

and there's the Rub al-Khali with unclaimed space and no borders and all the space for each and every Falastini!

[garro]

I understand that you have your reasons for sympathizing with Israel. I think though, if you could step back and look at the what is happening just as a human (and not as a Jew or an American) you would agree that Israel is not doing itself any favours by its actions.

They are left no choice but to act as they do if they want to survive. It is quite easy for those who would love to see them wiped out suggest they just bend over and take it up the keister like "nice guys", but they already tried that in World War 2.

So you are suggesting that those who would criticise Israel's behaviour are Nazis.

Actually, you came up with that one on your own.

I don't think that it is too far from the truth though.

Yes, you got me there, I'm a Nazi.

Well spotted.

I enjoy the way you deal with arguments.

If someone disagrees with your opinions they are obviously a fascist.

There was a time when I would be insulted, but sometimes you just need to shake your head and walk away.

[Ulysses G.]

You said it. Don't blame it on me.

If I want to point out something about someone personally, I don't resort to code or innuendos.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Naam]

that "Falastinis" are not really liked in some other arab countries is a fact and has it's special reasons. but why should there be room in other countries then their own, pray tell?

Because they lost their country in a war which they and their Arab bretheren started and every time they are offered a new one in trade for peace, they turn it down.

for today you have presented enough lame and uneducated bullshit General. i am now going to have a swim with my dog and perhaps later we (my dog and me) might have a more rational and factional discussion on politics, global warming, inflation, middle east problems and most important why cockroaches are not an endangered species

[Ulysses G.]

I'm sure that your dog thinks you are very well educated and a really clever guy.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

A country that has shown a tendency to use nukes aggressively should indeed be stopped from getting them, if possible. Do you doubt the world will be more unsafe if Iran gets these weapons?

Get realistic, Jingthing. Only one country has ever used nukes aggressively, and we are not just talking about a tendency to use them. OUR country. The USA, which brags that it had to use them to stop the war-crazed Japanese, as if the fire-bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo had not proven the Allies to be every bit as war-crazed. The West, especially the USA, is insane about using violence against mass populations. Israel, with its substantial nuclear arsenal, has a tendency in that direction, as well, apparently having learned the wrong lessons in the most unfortunate and damnable Holocaust.

To get back on topic: wars are fought in the name of nations and religions, seldom anything else. And nationalism, also called Nazi-ism, is the damnable excuse for killing those in manners the religious Scriptures condemn.

[egg6447]

Didn't the UK appease Germany during the beginnings of WWII? Didn't they say that it was OK if they took Poland/Austria because it did not concern them. That it was historically part of Germany anyway? French tried to talk, but look what it got them. If the other person does not care what you have to say, you can not talk your way to a solution.

let facts rule! the UK did not appease Germany when WWII started. fact is that Chamberlain (reluctantly) let Hitler annex the area "Sudetenland" in (then) Czechoslovakia where an overwhelming majority of Germans lived since centuries. that was one year before Germany attacked Poland and started WWII.

Sorry, not my history. Being from Germany, I believe you. I knew that Poland was the first, but though I also knew that there was some small part that was even before Poland. Just thought it was in Austria not Czechoslovakia. So England appeased Germany and did not try to prevent Germany from invading and taking over part of Czechoslovakia. I am sure that wet Hitler's appetite for Poland and the rest. After Poland, what did the rest of Europe do? Nothing. No body gave a sh*t until it came the time for their country to be attacked. Then they wanted other people to come to their aid.

please stop posting on the 2nd world war. it is so NOT your area of experties, its embarrasing.

[egg6447]

Israel has offered the Palestinians a homeland since they have been a nation and have been turned down numerous times. The rather obvious truth is that the Palestinians have no interest in anything other than pushing Israel into the sea and anyone who says otherwise is either a liar, a dupe or just plain stupid.

Yes, Israel built a wall to stop terrorists from blowing up innocent, men women a children, and it is working. Should they just allow these nuts to keep slaughtering innocent citizens?

Yes, they keep building settlements to show the Palestinians what will happen if they refuse to make peace. It is called the carrot and the stick approach and it often seems to work when both parties have enough brains to compromise. The Arabs have lost every single war against Israel including the first one when they had little help, but the Palestinians don't seem to get it.

Israel is tough because it has no other choice. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and are hated by all of the Arab "brothers" who just use them as chips against Israel. If they want peace, they might vote for someone other than Hammas who are terrorists who won't even recognize that Israel exists.

this is a very emotive subject for all concerned. me , i have a philosophy that is very simple. whatever my opinion , that opinion must fit both feet comfortably. now if you can accept a body of people camping in your back yard then it follows that you accept you can camp in there back yard. or the other way round. you will say i dont know you but i do know human nature. that tells me you dont/wont accept anyone in your back yard. so it doesnt fit both feet now does it. [flame removed]

[Beardog]

Not entirely accurate as Naam has spent a good many years in the U.S. & his home country & his home country & America have both have had the war mongering syndrome . I am proud of what I represent rather than a nationalist. And I would agree with Naam , My time here in LOS has made me a true realist & being away from the U.S. I can see the reason why the U.S. is losing world favor. No body likes the world cop. Not only that if we were smart we would withdraw support from Iraq rebuild our resources up & get ready for the next wave of attn the U.S. has brought us into.

Collateral damage has got to be the worst words ever contrived.

question for Beardog: have you been or do you know any individual U.S. citizen who has been personally accused because of some rubbish some politicians committed? i am convinced your answer is a clear "NO!" and the same goes for me. built a home in the U.S. and during construction period i found out (freedom of information act) that a bunch of my neighbours had names like Goldstein, Rosenbloom, Futterman, etc. was quite apprehensive when we moved in. but did my jewish neighbours blame me for the nazi crimes? NO! we were overwhelmed how warm we were accepted.

Most people (at least the younger Jewish crowd have realized) that the bad people that were in Germany at the time were the Government& the politicians that steer the country's whims+ too a hel_l of a lot of Jews come from Germany. My grandfather made the 3 month walk to get out while he could at that time. I being of Jewish accent have never blamed anybody but the government that rules out of fear(ww2) or the U.S. out of fear & brainwashing. That would be a firm NO to that question & I hope all of us are not looked after as the axis of evil from the whims of madmen. I would shutter to think that as an American I would be considered to be a pro nuke (like in Japan).and rightly so you should be welcomed warmly,

I would be glad to have a neighbor as genuine as yourself!

[Huey]

I wasn't crazy about living in the US, but because it is so fashionable to bash it, it has made me realize how much I like Americans in general and how hypocritical many of our detractors are. The US isn't perfect, but we never stop trying.

Good post, I hated my country before I left, I got in trouble in High School for not singing the national anthem, I had really no love at all for the States. But living here and in the middle east made me realize its not all about the color of your skin, its more about the color of your PASSPORT. And the rest of the world cares even less about me then my own country dose. So I adopted a similar attitude. Yeah, far from perfect, but we make progress every day. and make progress, social especially, FASTER than anyone else too. Still prefer to live in Thailand however