Buddhism And hel_l

[CuriousGeorge77]

I am extremely curious about how Thailand got its version of hel_l.  It is my understnading that hel_l is not a component of Buddhism,  however,  I know quite a few that would disagree strongly.  From what I can tell,  it is pretty similar to Dante's Inferno, only you get out after a while to try again.  

So,  my questions:  

A:  Can someone provide me with a more complete description of what it is?  

B:  where does the idea come from and how has it evolved?  

It seems out of place in Thailand.  

[jumnien]

There are many heaven and hel_l realms in Buddhist Cosmology. My favorite hel_l realm is the hungry ghost realm!

[garro]

In Buddhist cosmology there is talk about hel_l realms. Unlike other religions these hel_l states are only temporary. Many Buddhist believe these hel_l states refer to everyday mental states. For example the 'hungry ghost' realm is often compared to the world of an addict.

Edited April 20, 2008 by garro

[CuriousGeorge77]

I know the original Biblical version does not include hel_l as an eternal punishment.  But still,  the idea is now in existance.  

Can anyone inform me more about Buddhist Cosmology, and what some of the hel_l States are?  thanks

[garro]

This link might help;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

The inescapable law of kamma guarantees that each and every one of our actions — whether it be of body, speech, or mind — has consequences in line with the skillfulness or unskillfulness of that action.

The realms of existence are customarily divided into three distinct "worlds" (loka), listed here in descending order of refinement:

The Immaterial World (arupa-loka). Consists of four realms that are accessible to those who pass away while meditating in the formless jhanas.

The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka). Consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure. These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana and who have thereby managed to (temporarily) suppress hatred and ill-will. They are said to possess extremely refined bodies of pure light. The highest of these realms, the Pure Abodes, are accessible only to those who have attained to "non-returning," the third stage of Awakening. The Fine-Material World and the Immaterial World together constitute the "heavens" (sagga).

The Sensuous World (kama-loka). Consists of eleven realms in which experience — both pleasurable and not — is dominated by the five senses. Seven of these realms are favorable destinations, and include our own human realm as well as several realms occupied by devas. The lowest realms are the four "bad" destinations, which include the animal and hel_l realms.

[jumnien]

If you google "Buddhist hel_l Realms" you will find fascinating and diverse references, such as:

hel_l Realms

The lowest among the realms of existence is the hel_l realm. Buddhists believe that there are about 136 hells which are divided into “hot hells” and “cold hells”. The hel_l realms are looked upon as journey full of suffering; one born into this realm must not only endure suffering in their respective hel_l but also pass through each of lesser hells. This journey is supposed to take years to complete. In the course of which, even the Dharma is forgotten and even if it was remembered, the anguish is such that it makes practice impossible. The hel_l realm is characterized by acute aggression.

Buddhists believe that each person is reborn in accordance with their respective actions (Karma) in their previous lives.

[Brucenkhamen]

Buddhists believe that there are about 136 hells which are divided into “hot hells” and “cold hells”. The hel_l realms are looked upon as journey full of suffering; one born into this realm must not only endure suffering in their respective hel_l but also pass through each of lesser hells. This journey is supposed to take years to complete.

A small but not insignificant point, Buddhists don't necessarily believe in 136 hells etc.

It's not necessary to believe in them, and it's not expected of us the believe in them, in fact blind belief is discouraged.

It would be more correct to say that X Buddhist scripture describes 136 hells, now how literally you want to take that would depend how accurate a representation of the Buddhas original teaching that part of scripture is.

Now some modern teachers teach it quite literally but don't give it much weight, others teach it as mythology that points to the states people go through in their daily lives

[CuriousGeorge77]

Is this original Buddhism or is it a mix with other religions?

I've been meaning to start a thread about being reborn according to Kamma, because this is one thing I just really get my head around. It simply makes no sense to me, except insofar how it works as a carrot/stick mechanism mired in physical desires. (I've been accused of being a skeptic before ) Can anyone explain it a bit better for me? thanks

[Brucenkhamen]

Is this original Buddhism or is it a mix with other religions?

I've been meaning to start a thread about being reborn according to Kamma, because this is one thing I just really get my head around. It simply makes no sense to me, except insofar how it works as a carrot/stick mechanism mired in physical desires. (I've been accused of being a skeptic before ) Can anyone explain it a bit better for me? thanks

I'm in the same boat as you on this one and to my mind Buddhism works perfectly well without it, probably better.

Bear in mind that this part of the Buddhas teaching was not new at the time, it was the standard belief at the time in India, draw your own conclusions.

It's like when they invent a new flavour of icecream, something that's really makes vanilla pale by comparsion, they still deliver it in the same kind of cone.

[RY12]

It would be more correct to say that X Buddhist scripture describes 136 hells, now how literally you want to take that would depend how accurate a representation of the Buddhas original teaching that part of scripture is.

That's true, Westerners still seem to think there is one "Buddhism" out there that has universally accepted beliefs, like the Vatican and it's doctorine or something. In reality, there's not even a uniform Theravada out there, especially since probably more than half the suttas have probably no basis in Gautama's teaching. What I see in Isaan is much more of a throwback to the old animist spirit-worship days, and to me that's a heck of a lot more Thai than some buddhanet internet version of buddhism. That's not to say that the forest monks outside Ubon aren't less Thai, in fact I would hazard to guess that that tradition is (or was, since I've heard Pah Pong has gone downhill) the most sincere version of theravada since the pali days. Just my humble opinions (and an excuse to get my 100th post in)

[camerata]

Is this original Buddhism or is it a mix with other religions?

I've been meaning to start a thread about being reborn according to Kamma, because this is one thing I just really get my head around. It simply makes no sense to me, except insofar how it works as a carrot/stick mechanism mired in physical desires. (I've been accused of being a skeptic before ) Can anyone explain it a bit better for me? thanks

I've deleted some off-topic posts relating to Christianity since you asked about the Thai Buddhist notion of He11.

I think you'll find that the Thai idea of He11(s) is based on the Buddhist cosmology found in the Pali Canon but much embellished over the centuries in the popular imagination. I may be wrong but I don't think the suttas contain any detailed descriptions of he11 realms but later commentaries may well do and some Mahayana literature certainly does. I don't recall the Buddha using he11 realms as a stick other than pointing out that bad deeds lead to an "unfortunate rebirth." He tended to play up the idea that good deeds lead to a fortunate rebirth.

You can see a sample of medieval Buddhist he11 scrolls here.

[CuriousGeorge77]

Thank you for your thoughtfulness,  however,  one of the things I am very interested is where the Thai version of He11 comes from,  and as such I think I brought up Christian He!! myself,  so those were on topic.  As I recall, someone posted about how the original Christian He|| doen't resemble the modern one.  

I've been reading a bit about it, though, and it apparantly comes from the Indian "Naraka",  and that from back in tha' day has been the multi-tiered torture room to some and a metaphor to others.  

Edited April 27, 2008 by CuriousGeorge77

[Brucenkhamen]

Thank you for your thoughtfulness,  however,  one of the things I am very interested is where the Thai version of He11 comes from,  and as such I think I brought up Christian He!! myself,  so those were on topic.  As I recall, someone posted about how the original Christian He|| doen't resemble the modern one.  

I've been reading a bit about it, though, and it apparantly comes from the Indian "Naraka",  and that from back in tha' day has been the multi-tiered torture room to some and a metaphor to others.  

Sounds reasonable to me, when Thais talk about he// and hea\/en (Sawan) they don't sound like the versions we hear about in Buddhism.

[CuriousGeorge77]

What I've read and heard has indicated to me that it ought to be very similar ... the whole 9 yeards going down to the name... Different people interpret it different ways, but the idea seems to be almost exactly the same - from what I've read.

What makes them different? What am I missing? Thanks