A Country Full Of "expert" Thai Language Teachers

[Tod Daniels]

Does anyone else have a problem with the near constant correction in speaking thai which all the thais seem to so freely hand out to foreign speakers of this language?

It is bad enough thais are overly patronizing to anyone who remotely attempts to speak thai no matter how butchered. If I had a baht for every time a thai said พูดภาษาไทยเก่ง I'd be a millionaire. Mostly I respond to that statement with ขอบคุณครับแต่เรารู้อยู่แล้วว่าเด็กไทยหกขวบพูดเก่งกว่า, as it is slightly self-deprecating thais will usually warm up and chat after that.

I find it strange they can be overly patronizing and yet at the same time overly critical. My biggest pet peeve is too many thais feel they are the country's official thai language teacher and will correct the slightest mispronunciation when I speak to them before even trying to understand what I might be saying.

I KNOW already I speak like a foreigner, just like I KNOW already I mispronounce some words. Sheesh, listen first and see if you can pick it up by context. What do they think I do with their less than stellar grasp of english?

When I am in a less jovial mood and am asked, พูดภาษาไทยได้ไหม I now say in ผมพูดภาษาไทยเหมือนคนไทยพูดอังกฤษ บางครั้งไม่ชัด, บางคำการออกเสียงไม่ถูกแต่คิดว่าคุณเข้าใจดีพอ. It is probably less than perfect in sentence construction. It is however a jaw dropper more times than not, but it can break the ice OR freeze you out cold.

Now this could be entirely my fault for wanting to speak thai like I speak english. I want them to know if I am unhappy, if I have a problem, if what they are doing is unacceptable to me. The phrase เข้าแถวซิ is a good one for people who try to jump a queue. I would refrain from using it on the drunk as a skunk thai guy that staggers to the front of the line with 6 big bottles of Leo beer, though. You hafta know your audience. ช่างเถอะ is something I say when I am less than ecstatic with the catch all phrase ไม่เป็นไร as an answer to something I asked. I tried to figure out, Mai-bphen-rai is not good enough, think again, but it doesn’t translate well. I am also trying to work out how to say, “Don’t be afraid to speak straight I am an American I cannot lose face.”

I refuse to buy into almost mindless brain washing of couching my thai in some ultra polite semi hypothetical phrasing rather than speaking directly. I try speak very direct, right to the point, and now I will often purposely phrase questions to force them into giving me yes or no answers. I knew when began learning thai I only wanted to speak to thai people the way I speak english but in their language.

The ingrained sense of having to have a pleasant interaction in a conversation is off putting at times. I was driving to Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat) and got turned around. I saw a man walking down the road, and stopped to ask him if this road is the correct one to go to Korat. He said “Yes, of course, correct 100%”. It took almost another hour of driving before I realized I was going AWAY from Korat instead of towards it. I think he was concerned he didn’t want me to lose face by telling me I was going the wrong way, or he didn’t want to lose face by saying he didn’t know the way. It is situations like that which can be frustrating to someone used to dealing with direct conversations and answers.

NOTE: To all the oh-so cunning-linguists out there who read this. IF my thai sentence constructs are not understandable or correctly phrases, please lemme know. It is hard enough to be acerbic, witty and semi-disparaging in english, let alone trying for that in this language.

No wonder thais who don't take the time to know me as a person think I am หยิ่งยโส

[hanibal7]

Sorry to be a bad farang but that has to be the most boring post i have ever read.

Are you having a go at thais or just boasting,dont quite understand what tickles your fancy.Perhaps i am having trouble understanding you,just like the thais.

[taxexile]

whats the thai for "miserable git" and "chip on shoulder"

I saw a man walking down the road, and stopped to ask him if this road is the correct one to go to Korat. He said “Yes, of course, correct 100%”. It took almost another hour of driving before I realized I was going AWAY from Korat instead of towards it. I think he was concerned he didn’t want me to lose face by telling me I was going the wrong way,

.... not at all , i think he had you sussed out from the word go and acted accordingly.

[Dakhar]

I belong to a family corporation. I married in to it. There are only 2 senior members of the company above my wife and I, my mother in law & my father in law.

Any how, I walked into the office and asked an employee "Where is my wife...?" The response from the employee was "Where is my wife.... Kap" This particular employee happens to be a "Tom Boy." (but I have a better term)

I wanted to kick this particular employee right in the crotch..... and you can bet I will remember this in the future.

[DavidHouston]

Personally, I welcome the suggestions by my Thai friends and family on corrections of my Thai. How many Americans or other host country nationals are willing to take the time and effort to help foreigners with their English language skills?

I think their help is very endearing and I have never perceived any malace in their efforts. Usually the help is given in the form of a gentle reminder or the substitution of a correct word for the incorrect word or a pronunciation correction. We ought to treat this assistance as a gift, not a burden.

[meadish_sweetball]

I also like it when people correct me, and will thank people for doing so. Much better than when I find out in retrospect that I have been mispronouncing something or have got the meaning of a word wrong.

But then again, there is a time and place for everything. Some situations are simply not right for language lessons, and sometimes I bump into people less interested in helping than asserting their superiority, which can be annoying.

[DavidHouston]

I was out with a Thai friend the other day in Houston; we went to a camera store where wanted to buy a digital camera, his first. Like most first time users, he pushed the shutter button too sharply causing the camera to move and the pictures not to be sharp (despite the fact that this model had an "anti-shake" feature).

In describing "shake", I used the word สะเทือน and once กระเทือน. He corrected me, gently, and use the word "ไหว", a more accurate and common term. I sure am glad that he gave me this valuable lesson.

[Neeranam]

I was out with a Thai friend the other day in Houston; we went to a camera store where wanted to buy a digital camera, his first. Like most first time users, he pushed the shutter button too sharply causing the camera to move and the pictures not to be sharp (despite the fact that this model had an "anti-shake" feature).

In describing "shake", I used the word สะเทือน and once กระเทือน. He corrected me, gently, and use the word "ไหว", a more accurate and common term. I sure am glad that he gave me this valuable lesson.

สั่น is what I've always used for shake.

[Dakhar]

I belong to a family corporation. I married in to it. There are only 2 senior members of the company above my wife and I, my mother in law & my father in law.

Any how, I walked into the office and asked an employee "Where is my wife...?" The response from the employee was "Where is my wife.... Kap" This particular employee happens to be a "Tom Boy." (but I have a better term)

I wanted to kick this particular employee right in the crotch..... and you can bet I will remember this in the future.

I do not mind the help, but it was the context of when the help was offered. If I were with my wife, and she helped me fine, or if I am with a friend and he corrects me etc, no problem.

What I have a problem with is when a subordinate employee thinking she/he can get over on "defaceing" their boss.... Oh H3ll No..... that cr-ap don't fly.

[geriatrickid]

Lucky folks that someone actually cares enough to help. I'll take it from whomever and wherever. My friends tell me my attempts to speak Thai are so bad that I should just be quiet and speak in english.

[clausewitz]

whats the thai for "miserable git" and "chip on shoulder"

I saw a man walking down the road, and stopped to ask him if this road is the correct one to go to Korat. He said "Yes, of course, correct 100%". It took almost another hour of driving before I realized I was going AWAY from Korat instead of towards it. I think he was concerned he didn't want me to lose face by telling me I was going the wrong way,

.... not at all , i think he had you sussed out from the word go and acted accordingly.

[Jay_Jay]

I learned a couple of really valuable lessons from my grandfather when I was a kid learning a bunch of languages.

The first was to try and avoid saying 'How do you say X in Y language?'... Instead, try and elicit how the native speakers of a language would respond to a given situation - the facial expressions, rhythms, body language, velocity, pitch, tones of voice - everything. Sometimes, words mightn't even be used. He told me that we're not learning the language to express ourselves in the language. We're learning it to understand people expressing themselves in their own language and THEN express who I am wrapped up in a way that they will understand, accept and not considered so foreign that I'd be spat out before they even had a chance to digest me (a scary thought).

The second lesson was that the goal in learning a language should be to not have people compliment me anymore. I've found that although in different parts of the world initial reactions might cause people to assume they're not going to understand you, if pronunciation - rhythm, vowel placement (adjusting diphthongs, glides etc), throat positions, tones etc are good, people will start speaking to you as one of them and the paradigm of being a Farang / Bule / Lao Wai / Gui Lo is put aside.

Bottom line - If they're still correcting me, I'm saying it wrong.

One of the big complaints I hear is that Farang speak about things that are in Thais minds ไร้สาระ - 'not worth talking about' (with a bit of poetic license). Even if they speak Thai 'well', great selection of words, decent pronunciation etc... all it takes is a Farang to come into a conversation and drop a verbal bombshell that totally kills the atmosphere. I personally think it's better to get a foot in the door to the heart of someone first before having them shut the door on us.

[p_brownstone]

I belong to a family corporation. I married in to it. There are only 2 senior members of the company above my wife and I, my mother in law & my father in law.

Any how, I walked into the office and asked an employee "Where is my wife...?" The response from the employee was "Where is my wife.... Kap" This particular employee happens to be a "Tom Boy." (but I have a better term)

I wanted to kick this particular employee right in the crotch..... and you can bet I will remember this in the future.

I run my own small Company here and my Thai is pretty fluent, but I cannot imagine that any of my staff would have the gall to correct anything I said in this way.

First of all, since they are your staff, your subordinates, there is no need to address them using “Krap”, at the most I would have said “paraya yu ti nai na”.

Secondly, I am assuming you spoke in Thai, but if you asked in English “where is my wife” there would be absolutely no need to add any “honorific”.

Smack the “Tom boy” down hard before his attitude infects the rest of your staff.

Patrick

[mangkorn]

Neocolonialism is alive and well.

How dare those "munchkins" refuse to speak a "real" language!

[Rikker]

I also think that correction is helpful, and I generally welcome it. (It's also worth noting that much of the time, at least for me nowadays, Thais correct in a face-sensitive way through re-stating what you said using correct grammar/pronunciation/what have you. So it's good to be sensitive to these more subtle attempts at correction, since you can simply make a mental note and not let it interrupt the conversation.)

However, I think there's another kind of correction that is less helpful. Dakhar's example of the employee telling him to say ครับ is a good example. When Thais try to hold foreigners to the book standard instead of the spoken standard (or some uniform standard of politeness, as in this case). Maybe this is part of where your frustration comes from, Tod. Things like particles, or correct ยังไง to อย่างไร, that sort of thing. They wouldn't dare do it with fellow native speakers, but yes, there is a group of people who seem to think it's their duty to their language to make sure foreigners aren't using the "corrupted" version of Thai that many older Thais consider the colloquial language, particularly the heavily English-influenced language of the youth. Of course, if we weren't using it, we wouldn't be communicating as effectively (or as skillfully).

The attacks on Tod aren't really justified, though. I've felt exactly like he has plenty of times, and this is as good a venue as any for his thoughts. Thai formalities often drive me nuts, whenever I meet some ผู้หลักผู้ใหญ่ or another. I do my best to take it in stride.

I disagree with the "mindless brain washing" characterization, but I feel your pain. I think it's possible to communicate directly, within the bounds of social propriety, but I find it frustrating when I say something I think is innocuous, that gets me labeled ปากจัึด (or even ปากหมา)--even thought I didn't use any impolite words. I guess because of that I tend to have gone over to the dark side of hyper-politeness in formal situations, sometimes acting too Thai for my own good, which perpetuates the expectation that I'll always be this น่ารัก and สุภาพ, which comes back to bite me. But in my daily interaction, my level of Thai varies greatly, and I try to speak how they would expect a native to speak. Doesn't always go as planned, though.

(On a side note, I've also turned it into my own personal behavioral study to judge the likelihood of someone's directions being bogus, since this really is a common occurrence, as Tod says.)

Edited April 23, 2008 by Rikker

[Dakhar]

I belong to a family corporation. I married in to it. There are only 2 senior members of the company above my wife and I, my mother in law & my father in law.

Any how, I walked into the office and asked an employee "Where is my wife...?" The response from the employee was "Where is my wife.... Kap" This particular employee happens to be a "Tom Boy." (but I have a better term)

I wanted to kick this particular employee right in the crotch..... and you can bet I will remember this in the future.

I run my own small Company here and my Thai is pretty fluent, but I cannot imagine that any of my staff would have the gall to correct anything I said in this way.

First of all, since they are your staff, your subordinates, there is no need to address them using “Krap”, at the most I would have said “paraya yu ti nai na”.

Secondly, I am assuming you spoke in Thai, but if you asked in English “where is my wife” there would be absolutely no need to add any “honorific”.

Smack the “Tom boy” down hard before his attitude infects the rest of your staff.

Patrick

Yes, I did speak Thai, but I did not use the word "Kap." I did not speak to her in a rude matter etc. But yea, I did not like being treated like a joke.... and to tell even more... I hold a doctorate degree, and I hold the only doctorate degree in the nation in my field..... and I am this Tom Boy"s boss.... So yea, I wanted to kick her in her non-developed nuts.

Trust me, karma will be a biatch.

[meadish_sweetball]

I think it's possible to communicate directly, within the bounds of social propriety, but I find it frustrating when I say something I think is innocuous, that gets me labeled ปากจัึด (or even ปากหมา)--even though I didn't use any impolite words. I guess because of that I tend to have gone over to the dark side of hyper-politeness in formal situations, sometimes acting too Thai for my own good, which perpetuates the expectation that I'll always be this น่ารัก and สุภาพ, which comes back to bite me. But in my daily interaction, my level of Thai varies greatly, and I try to speak how they would expect a native to speak. Doesn't always go as planned, though.

Mirrors my experience exactly.

[Lithobid]

The ingrained sense of having to have a pleasant interaction in a conversation is off putting at times. I was driving to Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat) and got turned around. I saw a man walking down the road, and stopped to ask him if this road is the correct one to go to Korat. He said "Yes, of course, correct 100%". It took almost another hour of driving before I realized I was going AWAY from Korat instead of towards it. I think he was concerned he didn't want me to lose face by telling me I was going the wrong way, or he didn't want to lose face by saying he didn't know the way. It is situations like that which can be frustrating to someone used to dealing with direct conversations and answers.

I've experienced this problem driving in Thailand, and have found that telling the person where you are going is important. Yes it is the road to Korat, but did he know you were heading there, or perhaps you were heading to a place near there. I think you got what you asked for information wise, your expectations just exceeded the thinking of the culture. Reminds me of an old Garcia song.

[meadish_sweetball]

I find that these days I can usually tell when somebody really knows the directions, and when somebody does not.

It's difficult to describe the difference in body language and tone, but there is one. Another clue is that a person who understands what you are saying, and who knows the answer to your question, will usually give some additional details to acknowledge.

If the reply is just a short yes combined with nodding, and/or you get the feeling that the person would rather get rid of you, then you can be fairly certain they either do not understand you, or do not know the information you are asking for.

[Rikker]

If the reply is just a short yes combined with nodding, and/or you get the feeling that the person would rather get rid of you, then you can be fairly certain they either do not understand you, or do not know the information you are asking for.

This piece of advice is invaluable for beginning/intermediate learners, as it applies very broadly. To go a bit further, ครับ and ค่ะ do not mean "yes" in the same way English "yes" means "yes". They just as often mean "I heard what you said." I find that I'm rather sensitive to whether I'm being understood or not, and tend to immediately offer more detail, or a rephrasing based on the reaction of the first couple of seconds. I've been in the situation many times where a fellow farang thought they were being understood, especially if ครับ/ค่ะ is used, but it was obvious to me that they weren't. And the listener, say, a waitress at a restaurant, wasn't even trying to give the impression that they really understood--they were just being polite by responding ค่ะ to what the farang said. Obviously I don't think that's what happened with the Road to Korat story, but it's a common enough mistake, I notice.

Typical scenario:

Farang walks into a restaurant he frequents. He knows there are is a main cook and a backup cook at this restaurant, but he highly prefers the regular one. He attempts to ask something in Thai like "Is the regular cook working today?" but his Thai isn't very good. She hesitantly responds ค่ะ, unsure of what he was getting at. He says to himself, "Oh, good, I'm glad the cook I like is here." Food comes, it's not the cook he likes. Farang is upset, and wonders why the waitress didn't tell him the truth.

[meadish_sweetball]

Having read your additional advice, I think one good strategy is to stop asking 'yes/no' questions.

If you ask 'who' 'when', 'how much' and 'what' the listener can not get away with 'kha/khrap'... and if they should still respond that way, you know for sure they haven't understood.

[thithi]

well i can say that some of thais are just like that ... overly patronizing...

but most of us are not like that ... we think it's amazing that foreigners can speak our language.. or they like trying to speak, study thai. we are pround of that. Tho some thais act weird sometimes doesnt mean that they are overly patronizing... maybe they cant speak English fluently or it's just an irony that they mean it only to kidding u

thais do say something ironic just for fun

anyway i feel sorry for this case

[jdinasia]

the longer I am here the more atrocious I am convinced my Thai is, but yeah this topic seems to be both bragging AND whining at the same time. (My ego is enormous but I feel small compared to ...)

[MisterMan]

I belong to a family corporation. I married in to it. There are only 2 senior members of the company above my wife and I, my mother in law & my father in law.

Any how, I walked into the office and asked an employee "Where is my wife...?" The response from the employee was "Where is my wife.... Kap" This particular employee happens to be a "Tom Boy." (but I have a better term)

I wanted to kick this particular employee right in the crotch..... and you can bet I will remember this in the future.

So because you "married into" (did nothing to desreve the status) you have the right to be rude and not follow the social graces of your chosen culture to live in?

Good on that on employee for reminding you of manager. And your poor wife if such a small thing insigates feelings of violence.

And to the origianl poster? What is your problem?

I am happy when someone corrects my thai so i can speak correctly. I get upset to learn that i have bene speaking incorrectly and no one has corrected me!