Modern Indulgences Sale?

[toptuan]

There have been some serious charges leveled at the practice of Buddhism in Thailand on another thread, as follows:

TAXEXILE

there seem to be a lot of thai temples solely devoted to helping themselves , witness the proliferation of shiny , gaudy , spangly and oversized new temples going up , the increase in celebrity monks ..... and the increase in marketing of pseudo religious junk in order to fund the millions of billboards littering the roadsides advertising yet another miracle working monk or new roof construction for these places and to boost the egos and balance sheets of the monks.

whilst the rich can afford to give , the poor certainly cant , and for a religion where giving is seen as buying a first class ticket for the next life , its the poor who suffer most by this cruel (yet brilliant) marketing hoax , and the temples and those who run them who gain the most.

KMART

Seems that a lot of monks spend time blessing lottery tickets; fridges; and and pick-ups. I just think that this is Buddhism tailored to suit their flock. Spirituality is probably an indulgence most of them cannot afford anyway.

My questions:

1) Are we witnessing a clash of culture and religion? (A clash of mercenary, manipulative, self-serving Thai culture vs. the pristine precepts of Buddha?)

2) Or are we witnessing the natural and usual result of Buddhist philosophy when it is applied to fallible human nature?

3) Or, do you dispute the above allegations?

[jumnien]

Those two examples are not positive examples of Buddhism, of which there are many. Study the negative and your view will be negative.

[Brucenkhamen]

1) Are we witnessing a clash of culture and religion? (A clash of mercenary, manipulative, self-serving Thai culture vs. the pristine precepts of Buddha?)

Yes, also remember to some degree all religions get corrupted over time by people who miss the central message and use it for their self serving aims, though I think Thailand is one of the most blatant examples of this.

If only 5% of monks/people practicing Thai Buddhism are genuinesly following the Buddhas teachings then it's worth seeking them out to learn from them, just ignore the other 95%.

There are good Thai Buddhist teachers and temples out there and anyone genuinely interested in Buddhism won't have trouble finding them.

3) Or, do you dispute the above allegations?

I think they are a fair assessment, bearing in mind what I said about the 5% (not that I'm saying 5% is accurate, just a guestimate)

Edited May 2, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[PeaceBlondie]

Thai Buddhists can clean their own house, as they see fit. Just a reminder: when the abuses of the clergy, the sale of indulgences, and general moral laxity occurred in Roman Catholicism, that church lost half its membership before it launched its own counter-reformation.

[Plus]

If only 5% of monks/people practicing Thai Buddhism are genuinesly following the Buddhas teachings then it's worth seeking them out to learn from them, just ignore the other 95%.

That doesn't help much if you look at the society as a whole. Those 95% dictate social norms to something 99.999% of the population.

Saving yourself has never been enough in Christianity or Islam, but it seems Buddhists are not overly concerned with the fate of their fellow countrymen. Perhaps it's another sign of corruption, but something tells me that people would argue that it's how it's meant to be.

[lannarebirth]

1) Yes 2) Perhaps, 3) No

[Xangsamhua]

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

"Buddhism" is just human interpretation and application of what we think the Buddha taught and the example of his life as we understand it. It's not something to be packaged and presented in a self-satisfying form by which those who see things differently can be condemned.

Many people for one reason or another graft Buddhist (and other religious) teaching onto popular religion or vice versa. It may seem tawdry or even corrupt but it seems to satisfy people's need for reassurance and perhaps it's a better alternative to the purely commercial distractions otherwise available.

Perhaps we should be sincere and diligent in trying to understand and practise what we believe to be the essential truths of the Buddha's (or Christ's or the Prophet Muhammad's) teaching without trying to sweep it up into too neat a package. After all, even Tetzel's indugences had a place in the popular religion of Luther's time (and a perhaps questionable theological justification), and within three hundred years German Protestantism had lost touch with the common folk altogether. (In 1869 only 1% of working class Berliners attended church on Sundays. Burleigh, M. (2006). "Earthly Powers". Harper Perennial, p.263.)

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps we should be sincere and diligent in trying to understand and practise what we believe to be the essential truths of the Buddha's (or Christ's or the Prophet Muhammad's) teaching without trying to sweep it up into too neat a package. After all, even Tetzel's indugences had a place in the popular religion of Luther's time (and a perhaps questionable theological justification), and within three hundred years German Protestantism had lost touch with the common folk altogether. (In 1869 only 1% of working class Berliners attended church on Sundays. Burleigh, M. (2006). "Earthly Powers". Harper Perennial, p.263.)

Indeed, religious reforms can be short-lived on their effect of purifying the faith, and can let the genie out of the bottle or knock the props out from the house of cards. It may reveal that only a tiny percentage of the 'believers' were ever believers in the true sense of the term.

[Brucenkhamen]

If only 5% of monks/people practicing Thai Buddhism are genuinesly following the Buddhas teachings then it's worth seeking them out to learn from them, just ignore the other 95%.

That doesn't help much if you look at the society as a whole. Those 95% dictate social norms to something 99.999% of the population.

Saving yourself has never been enough in Christianity or Islam, but it seems Buddhists are not overly concerned with the fate of their fellow countrymen. Perhaps it's another sign of corruption, but something tells me that people would argue that it's how it's meant to be.

No I don't believe those 95% dictate social norms to the 99.999%, 95% is probably too negative a guestimate anyway.

I've met quite a few genuinely "saintly" Thais who can see the error of the way society has gone away from the values of Buddhism while still labelling itself Buddhist, and yes I think they are concerned about it.

Unlike in some other religions one can only help someone who wants to be helped, there is no compulsion to force people who aren't interested to follow what is considered skillful in terms of Buddhism. Each person has his own path to follow, if you want someone to follow a good path then don't try and force it on them, be an example that they might be inspired to emulate one day.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Brucenkhamen