Having Problems With Some Tone Rules

[Artamus]

I've been having a lot of frustrations lately with reading/writing Thai and have some, no doubt, idiot questions about tones that I could do with help with please

The Thai word อร่อย (a-roi meaning delicious) is pronounced with a low tone on the "roi" part. but the character ร is a low-class consonant and the sylable "roi" is a live-syllable in Thai. Therefore the tone mark over the ร่ means it is pronounced with a falling tone. So why is it pronounced with a low tone when spoken? (Seems it is treated as a mid-class consonant?).

Next question. Why is a-roi spelt like อร่อย but a-rai spelt อะไร by the same logic I would spell a-roi อะร่อย.

Another stupid question about the spelling of "I" (female). This is spelt ดิิฉัน in Thai. Now ฉ (choo ching) is a high-class consonant so ฉัน should be pronounced with a rising tone following tone rules, but is practice is spoken with a high tone, so I would write it ดิฉั้น which would of course be wrong. Is there something I am missing here?

[riga]

In อร่อย, อร is so called non-conforming initial consonant clusters so the tone of the second syllable is determined by the class of the first letter of the cluster, in this case อ which is a letter from the medium class: so medium class + maai aehk > Low tone

The second question is always related to the fact that อร is non-conforming consonant clusters and it implies that two phonologically incompatible consonants invoke a sub-syllable /-ะ/ (/-a/) phoneme within the cluster

The pronoun ฉัน as you stated has a rising tone. The form you hear with an high thone is ชั้น, an informal alternative spelling of the pronoun ฉัน

By the way ดิฉั้น would be eventually pronounced dee(Low) chan(Falling)

[5tash]

But there are some exceptions to the rule, for example; อธิ is pronounced with a high tone.

[riga]

But there are some exceptions to the rule, for example; อธิ is pronounced with a high tone.

Well, good point. I should have been more accurate.

In fact อธิ is not an exception to the rule, because the rule states that "... in the case that the second consonant in the cluster is not a sonorant (non-sonorant low-class consonants included) then that second consonant is used to determine the spoken tone of the syllable" which is the case with อธิ.

You can look at the complete explanation of the rule for non-conforming initial clusters here:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster_tone

[withnail]

My advice (as I tell students of both English and Thai) is to stop asking the question why? and stick to when?

You know the tones so just stick to that, I've almost completely forgotten the rules now as on a day to day basis I have no need to recall them. I do, however, seem to be able to read and guess the tone right more often than I get it wrong.

[Artamus]

Many thanks to all on the replies - it's clearer now.

You know the tones so just stick to that, I've almost completely forgotten the rules

This probably happens when you get more proficient as a speaker, but as I am still in the early learning phase I have to build each word mechanically in my mind, so if I don't understand the rules I get the written or spoken Thai wrong.

[withnail]

Many thanks to all on the replies - it's clearer now.

You know the tones so just stick to that, I've almost completely forgotten the rules

This probably happens when you get more proficient as a speaker, but as I am still in the early learning phase I have to build each word mechanically in my mind, so if I don't understand the rules I get the written or spoken Thai wrong.

Sure, but you need to know them to a point, not in as much detail as is often discussed here. Also, when you find something that's an exception to the rule any discussion of why it's an exception to the rule is likely going to take 10 times as much effort as it would to just remember this and move on. The real acquisition of these subtleties, even as an adult learner, takes place much more subconsciously.

Some of the discussions we have here are interesting linguistically, as that is a side of the language that many including me would like to know more about. There's a difference, however, between like to know and need to know.

[Johpa]

My advice (as I tell students of both English and Thai) is to stop asking the question why? and stick to when?

You know the tones so just stick to that, I've almost completely forgotten the rules now as on a day to day basis I have no need to recall them. I do, however, seem to be able to read and guess the tone right more often than I get it wrong.

I too have long forgotten the tone rules, and even the consonant classes. They are very useful in the beginning as a learning tool, but ask the average Thai about the tone rules or consonant classes and you will get this quizzical look.

As in any other writing system, you eventually internalize the written word as a single unit, written words all becomes like Chinese characters in the brain.

[riga]

As in any other writing system, you eventually internalize the written word as a single unit, written words all becomes like Chinese characters in the brain.

Hopefully in a couple of year or ten I will be able to state the same

[desi]

As in any other writing system, you eventually internalize the written word as a single unit, written words all becomes like Chinese characters in the brain.

Timely advice. Thanks.

Just yesterday I bookmarked very good (seems to me) lessons on the rules at YouTube. But no matter how good they are, just knowing about all the details makes me feel like I'll never learn them all.

So now I'll go through the rules every so often, but put my time into listening, reading and writing. Lots of listening.

Again, thanks.

[learnthaipodcast]

When you start learning Thai you might want to try the learning technique known as "shadowing".

Shadowing is pretty much just speaking the words and sentences while you listen to a native speaker. It is a bit like karaoke

This helps you to get a feeling for the sound profile and is especially effective for tonal languages such as Thai or Chinese (as they are so different to most western languages).

To get most out of it try talking along with some audio you are listening to and with our without transcripts (blind vs non blind shadowing). Another crucial part of learning a new language is to speak out loud. So try to do this as well while you are shadowing.

Edited June 3, 2008 by learnthaipodcast

[kriswillems]

I've not forgotten the tone rules but I got very fast in applying them.

From most of the words I just remember the tones and when I see a new word I compare it to one of the words I already know.

At this point I seem to recognise the tone based on the first consonant and the "shape" of the word. What I mean is, I don't need to answer all questions one by one (Is it a dead syllable? Is it a long vowel? Is there a tone mark? What is the class of the first consonant?) but it looks like I recognize all these things at once and that I got very fast at associating the syllable with the correct tone.

I make mistakes, but not really because I don't know what the tone should be, but because I sometimes pronounce the pitch/tone not very clear.