Volunteer Opportunity

[Steve2UK]

.........I'm only asking for accurate, verifiable numbers that provide some context. Which I guess you can't provide either. And if only long-term members will remember people from Chiang Mai being deported, that tells me that it hasn't happened in quite some time.

With all due respect to the OP, sorry - but that just isn't how things work in Thailand. As a glance through any of the forums that touch on Thai rules and regulations (visas, building, motoring laws etc etc.......) will show - different officials in different localities at different times will operate differently. Unless you're researching an article or academic thesis on the statistics of how many got canned over what period and where and why, it just isn't important to know the precise figures. The Thai bureaucracy is a blend of Byzantine and old-style eastern bloc - ministries don't always talk to each other let alone to province/city administrations and different departments operate as power centres for the people running them. Officials "turning a blind eye" in that situation is not only widespread it's endemic - but what it isn't is safe.

What is important is that if a well-meaning volunteer gets innocently caught up in infringing the work permit regulations (laws, in fact) - then the statistic for that person is potentially 100%. All credit to you for publicising what is arguably a public benefit scheme (up to all of us to decide whether the city council should pay for improving its employees' language skills or not) - but the same goes for this scheme as it does for giving such help to (for instance) Myanmar refugees or disadvantaged Thai villagers............. not to mention emergency situations like the tsunami.

Peaceblondie has long experience of teaching in Thailand (see how many posts he makes on the teaching sub-forum) - and people should really pay attention to what he says. I think just about all of us with any insight into how things really work here have the same pragmatic attitude - i.e. you don't enter into such a scheme until you are shown 100% cast-iron proof that it is reliably exempt from the regulations governing all "work" paid or otherwise.

[sylviex]

Well said, Steve2UK.

It's not just about pragmatics, either. Dare I mention the word "principles" here ?

Why has nobody come forward to address the issues specific to this project ?

Who and where are the members of the enigmatic Chiang Mai Friends group and its "board" ?

Edited June 7, 2008 by sylviex

[sylviex]

Exceptionally shy group, the "Chiang Mai Friends" seem to be for such a selfless, keen to help lot..

I tend to think that if they had nothing to hide, a representative might have come forward to promote your activities and comment by now.

Hello, Chiang Mai Friends ? Where are you when we need you ?

How will we know how to contact you if you don't tell us who you are ?

Edited June 7, 2008 by sylviex

[Calico]

The last I heard, it's illegal for foreigners to work in the Kingdom of Thailand without the appropriate visa and work permit, regardless of what local politico claims to protect you with his or her personal umbrella of influence. If I felt motivated to volunteer for anything, that would concern me.

If I had a child, the idea that they could be taught by someone who had neither qualifications nor a background check would scare me quite a bit. I wouldn't trust such people with my calico, much less my child.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Calico

[emh1969]

Exceptionally shy group, the "Chiang Mai Friends" seem to be for such a selfless, keen to help lot..

I tend to think that if they had nothing to hide, a representative might have come forward to promote your activities and comment by now.

Hello, Chiang Mai Friends ? Where are you when we need you ?

How will we know how to contact you if you don't tell us who you are ?

Ah, the powers of google:

http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/aboutus.php

http://www.retireinchiangmai.com/contact.php

[Greenside]

As far as I know, the Mayor fielded the idea when she addressed the meeting of the Chiang Mai Expats' Club on March 8th. In response to widespread criticism about how difficult it often is to get the simplest of things done here in the city and with a general feeling that members of the CEC would like to contribute more, she suggested that working with the municipality to improve communication skills would be a genuine help. It certainly seemed like a good idea in principle and the impression was given that those taking part would not need to obtain a work permit. I don't recall any mention of teaching children during her speech so I think that's something that's been added to the mix since then.

I'm a decently qualified ESL teacher with my expensive training going to waste and would like to put in a few hours a week teaching adults, not only because I enjoy it but I really think it could be a genuine help. Unfortunately, I lack the required Batchelors Degree (any old subject will do it seems) the rules say I need to get a work permit and I'm not prepared to jeopardise my family life and duck and dive around on the fringes of the law, money or no money. I'm not going to get involved in the argument that says that the city should be spending money on training their staff properly with fully qualified teachers at the going rate. Since they can't get it together to fix the holes in the road let alone worry about whether the guy in the office that should issue me with my Yellow Book can explain in English why he's simply not going to, it's just not going to happen.

Anyway, I was going to sign up for this tomorrow but am now feeling pretty cautious and will need some serious reassurance that a well intentioned deed won't come back to bite me.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Greenside

[sriracha john]

Thanks for the additional background information. Indeed, it sounds even more certain that the mayor is completely unaware of her limitations to declare something is exempt from a national-level ministry law. It's not unexpected at all, the Thais are the first people to freely admit they all don't understand the nuances of all sorts of laws and different government departments. As a new mayor I'm sure she was keen to be seen as pro-active and in-charge and the English program seems worthwhile so why not issue a local exemption? Problem is, she can't. I fully expect that she, exactly like me, doesn't even consider the absurdity of this work permit law and fully thinks she can wave (waive) it away.

Edited June 8, 2008 by sriracha john

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe it was the American comedian or a Scot poet named Burns who said that the best-laid plans of mice and men, often get ganged up on. We need not gang up on some ideas dreamed up by Thai politicians, because they often come to nought (or is that nawt?). Many plans to teach English, even best-laid by professional edjumakators, oft go astray. As any of us who have tried to learn Thai know painfully well, language acquisition often takes many years, unless you immerse the student in the klong.

Now that we have a link to the Friends Club, I know those dudes! Chas and Rachel, Dang, Boong. I remember Boong saying she had a volunteer teaching program, but I avoided asking about work permits. They are nice friends, even though they are not Quaker Friends. I wish them luck. I promise to volunteer when the mayor promises to serve the jail time if she helps any farang break the law.

[Nienke]

Exceptionally shy group, the "Chiang Mai Friends" seem to be for such a selfless, keen to help lot..

I tend to think that if they had nothing to hide, a representative might have come forward to promote your activities and comment by now.

Hello, Chiang Mai Friends ? Where are you when we need you ?

How will we know how to contact you if you don't tell us who you are ?

You can also take the initiative yourself and contact Khun Boong with your concerns directly by email or at her her office. Her email address is provided in the OP and the office address you can find through the 'retire in CM' link.

It might very well be she (or the Mayor for that matter) doesn't read TV.

Nienke

[sylviex]

Nienke, it seems you are a member of this group yourself. (Correct me if I am wrong). You don't wish to address the concerns ThaiVisa members have expressed here ? Or alert the appropriate person (Khun Boong?) to this thread so all of us can have an open discussion of the issues ?

Srirachajohn : Indeed, it sounds even more certain that the mayor is completely unaware of her limitations to declare something is exempt from a national-level ministry law.

Sounds very likely that is the case.

[sriracha john]

I promise to volunteer when the mayor promises to serve the jail time if she helps any farang break the law.

That sounds very reasonable and if she's confident of her positional authority, it should be no problem for her to accept the condition.

Under these conditions, I'm right behind with another hand up.

[sriracha john]

This afternoon was the first lesson.

In reviewing the thread, I missed this earlier.

Perhaps anyone considering this program, should wish to see a resolution of the work permit issues addressed PRIOR to actually working.

[KevinHunt]

Not sure what your point is. I don't doubt that it happens. I'm only asking for accurate, verifiable numbers that provide some context. Which I guess you can't provide either. And if only long-term members will remember people from Chiang Mai being deported, that tells me that it hasn't happened in quite some time.

My point is that people do get deported for work permit imfringements, the last one that I knew of personally was an Italian gentleman that was arrested by immigration ploice and shipped down to Bangkok for deportation about nine months ago.

I very much doubt if you'll find any official figures anywhere, as like everything else that effects tourism......It's bad for the image, to say nothing of the pocket

Does anyone know of an actual case of a volunteer ever being jailed/deported for not having a work permit? I'm sure plenty of illegal teachers/tour guides etc have been punished throughout the years but I've never heard of a guy volunteering in the village school etc ever being jailed. Warned maybe. Actually jailed?

Personally, I very much doubt if anyone would actually report farangs volunteering for this project, and I very much doubt that if it ever happened, the volunteers would be jailed. It all seems theoretical to me. Highly unlikely scenario, methinks.

[Steve2UK]

Does anyone know of an actual case of a volunteer ever being jailed/deported for not having a work permit? I'm sure plenty of illegal teachers/tour guides etc have been punished throughout the years but I've never heard of a guy volunteering in the village school etc ever being jailed. Warned maybe. Actually jailed?

Personally, I very much doubt if anyone would actually report farangs volunteering for this project, and I very much doubt that if it ever happened, the volunteers would be jailed. It all seems theoretical to me. Highly unlikely scenario, methinks.

After you............

Edited June 8, 2008 by Steve2UK

[sylviex]

Best of all, you get to pay "retireinchiangmai" for the privelege of unretiring and working for free, (illegally) , so they can win fame, favour, and other more material benefits, no doubt.

You have to admit 'tis quite a clever wheeze. Sort of a white slave trade for seniors .

[Calico]

I've never heard of a volunteer being jailed for having a work permit, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I'd rather not find out the hard way, in a Thai jail.

And again, I'm bothered by the idea that any native English speaker you drag in off the street can teach the topic. To your children. They might be too friendly.

[sylviex]

The Chiang Mai Friends are not very friendly, at all.

Several are Thaivisa members.

They are undoubtedly aware of this thread, but refuse to respond.

[richard10365]

I didn't read through the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

This project could have been started 3 months ago if the mayor didn't want to get the legalities of foreigners working without a work permit out of the way. After dealing with the proper authorities, the program is moving forward.

Those of you with concerns are free to visit the Mayors office and take advantage of her open door policy.The mayor, Dr. Duaen Dtem Dawang (not sure if I spelled that right), will be happy to sit down with you and discuss any concerns you might have about the program. If you do visit her, I suggest you go into her office expecting to have an intelligent conversation with a very level headed woman. She's a lot smarter than most of the posters of this website. If you go in their acting like your superior just because your from a western country then you might find yourself out in the street. After reading some of the ignorant post, I would assume some posters would do just that. The mayor is probably one of the best friends foreigners have in Chiang Mai. she deserves a lot more respect than she is getting from this thread.

If your interested in helping with the program, you should follow the instructions posted earlier.

[Steve2UK]

I didn't read through the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

This project could have been started 3 months ago if the mayor didn't want to get the legalities of foreigners working without a work permit out of the way. After dealing with the proper authorities, the program is moving forward.

Those of you with concerns are free to visit the Mayors office and take advantage of her open door policy.The mayor, Dr. Duaen Dtem Dawang (not sure if I spelled that right), will be happy to sit down with you and discuss any concerns you might have about the program. If you do visit her, I suggest you go into her office expecting to have an intelligent conversation with a very level headed woman. She's a lot smarter than most of the posters of this website. If you go in their acting like your superior just because your from a western country then you might find yourself out in the street. After reading some of the ignorant post, I would assume some posters would do just that. The mayor is probably one of the best friends foreigners have in Chiang Mai. she deserves a lot more respect than she is getting from this thread.

If your interested in helping with the program, you should follow the instructions posted earlier.

It would be helpful and sensible for those who might be interested in volunteering to see some evidence the Mayor has actually got "the legalities of foreigners working without a work permit out of the way". For several days, people have been asking about the work permit aspect - and until now, all we have seen is other people doubting that anything bad would happen to a volunteer..........

Unlike you, I have read all the posts - and (IMO) none of them seems to show any disrespect to the Mayor. Nor would I expect any of the posters to "go in their acting like your superior just because your from a western country". Which of the posts (that you read) do you regard as "ignorant"?

It's very simple. Given that there are people who would be willing to participate in the scheme but also given that we are all told elsewhere that any kind of work in Thailand requires a work permit, then a proposal like this clearly requires dependable evidence that a local scheme has official exemption from the national norm. No amount of sniping from you changes that.

[Loaded]

I didn't read through the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

This project could have been started 3 months ago if the mayor didn't want to get the legalities of foreigners working without a work permit out of the way. After dealing with the proper authorities, the program is moving forward.

Those of you with concerns are free to visit the Mayors office and take advantage of her open door policy.The mayor, Dr. Duaen Dtem Dawang (not sure if I spelled that right), will be happy to sit down with you and discuss any concerns you might have about the program. If you do visit her, I suggest you go into her office expecting to have an intelligent conversation with a very level headed woman. She's a lot smarter than most of the posters of this website. If you go in their acting like your superior just because your from a western country then you might find yourself out in the street. After reading some of the ignorant post, I would assume some posters would do just that. The mayor is probably one of the best friends foreigners have in Chiang Mai. she deserves a lot more respect than she is getting from this thread.

If your interested in helping with the program, you should follow the instructions posted earlier.

Where did anyone criticise the mayor?

And with all due respect, I doubt very much whether she knows or understands the legalities of foreigners working here. The Labour Dept. here recently told one of our teachers, who is in the process of obtaining a work permit, to go to Mae Sai to extend his single-entry non-immigrant B visa! needless to say that as soon as he left the country, his visa was cancelled. Without realising he came back to CM with a Visa Exemption stamp for 30 days and continued the work permit process. When he went to the Immigration Dept. to extend his 'non-imm' visa, they told him he had a Visa Exemption and wouldn't be able to continue the process until he obtained a non-imm visa. He told them what the Labour Dept. had advised, they laughed and described that government office as incompetent. So, if the Labour Dept. doesn't understand the work permit process, what hope does the good Dr. mayor have?

However, saying all the above, many people do volunteer, and work, without the necessary documents to make them legal. And in fact, even with the 'correct' documents the terms of the work permit are so exclusive (location and type of work) that it's very easy to break them and technically work illegaly.

I've been here close to 10 years and haven't heard of any Westerner being deported for not having the correct papers to work, but I'm sure it happens.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Loaded

[Priceless]

The Chiang Mai Friends are not very friendly, at all.

Several are Thaivisa members.

They are undoubtedly aware of this thread, but refuse to respond.

Firstly, I have no connection with the Chiang Mai Friends group (except that some of them are acquaintances of mine). Secondly, I am in Thailand on (an extension of) a retirement visa and have very little clue about work permits here.

I have however noted that several posters here demand that members of the Chiang Mai Friends group come on Thai Visa to respond to questions. Me query is if any of these posters have done what the group ask them to do: "For further details, please contact Khun Boong by email at , [...]" (Chiangmai Mail June 3 - June 9 2008, http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/current/community.shtml#hd6 )? If not, why not?

It seems somewhat impolite, not to say pretentious, to ask them to do what you are not yourselves willing to do

/ Priceless

Edited June 9, 2008 by sabaijai

[Ulysses G.]

I've been here close to 10 years and haven't heard of any Westerner being deported for not having the correct papers to work, but I'm sure it happens.

I have. Several times.

[PeaceBlondie]

Khun Boong, like the good mayor, is well educated, very pleasing, and so forth. My brief encounter with Khun Boong, however, made me wonder how much she knew about work permits and the visa process. I could go see either or both the fine ladies, and I am a bit too lazy to do so. What is either of them likely to say, other than that they had lunch with a Labour officer once and the som tam was very spicy?

On a more serious note, the interplay between visas and work permits is so complex that one ministry does not often know what the other ministry does. Will a mayor and a travel agent know much more?

[sylviex]

Priceless, I simply find it odd that, considering several of the "Friends" are members of the forum, not a single one has come forward to dispel our concerns. The Friends group claims to want to open up lines of communication between locals and expats. Would this forum not be a great place to do so ? Would you not expect such a group to leap at the opportunity ?

Email is a private converstion between (usually) two people. Wouldn't it seem better to address the issues right here where they were raised, and where everyone can read and comment, if they so wish ?

Also, the group does seem, to some extent, to have taken on the role of liaison between expats and local officials. It may well be that the mayor does not have a very thorough understanding of work permits, but at least a few of the Friends most certainly do. It might now seem to the mayor that all expats would prefer to forgo the paperwork and work illegally. As you can see, that's not the case.

Edited June 9, 2008 by sylviex

[Priceless]

Priceless, I simply find it odd that, considering several of the "Friends" are members of the forum, not a single one has come forward to dispel our concerns. The Friends group claims to want to open up lines of communication between locals and expats. Would this forum not be a great place to do so ? Would you not expect such a group to leap at the opportunity ?

Email is a private converstion between (usually) two people. Wouldn't it seem better to address the issues right here where they were raised, and where everyone can read and comment, if they so wish ?

Also, the group does seem, to some extent, to have taken on the role of liaison between expats and local officials. It may well be that the mayor does not have a very thorough understanding of work permits, but at least a few of the Friends most certainly do. It might now seem to the mayor that all expats would prefer to forgo the paperwork and work illegally. As you can see, that's not the case.

It just seems to me that they have clearly indicated who they want to be their spokesperson (Khun Boong) and what is their preferred medium to receive/answer questions (e-mail). As far as I know, Khun Boong is not a member of Thai Visa. It consequently occurred to me that one of the TV members could send her an e-mail with the pertinent questions and then post the answer(s) here, rather than keep complaining about them not replying in a thread that they have not been participating in.

Just my two satangs worth

/ Priceless

Edited June 9, 2008 by Priceless

[sylviex]

Not sure I wish to end up on the municipal blacklist, Priceless. My internet service is slow enough as it is .

In any case, I think we can be quite sure Khun Boong has been made aware of this thread already. It's possible she's not well equipped to respond (see PeaceBlondie's comments above.)

Edited June 9, 2008 by sylviex

[PeaceBlondie]

Not sure I wish to end up on the municipal blacklist, Priceless. My internet service is slow enough as it is .

In any case, I think we can be quite sure Khun Boong has been made aware of this thread already. It's possible she's not well equipped to respond (see PeaceBlondie's comments above.)

Nor do I wish to end up on anybody's blacklist, and I did not mean to imply that Khun Boong is not well equipped about the general issues of volunteering. We are stuck on the question of whether, for an absolute certainty, a mayor can get an exemption for farang volunteers to get work permits. Both the ladies may know far more than I do. Nevertheless, I would want to see more than just their informal verbal assurance. I understand that Thailand is more a culture of social relationships than it is a nation under statutory law. But the authorities who punish working farang and alien visitors can do so under statutory law.

[sylviex]

Nor do I wish to end up on anybody's blacklist, and I did not mean to imply that Khun Boong is not well equipped about the general issues of volunteering.

No, not at all. Sorry if I seemed to be suggesting you had implied that .

If there were a satisfying answer on the legality of the WP "waiver", at least one of the CM Friends group members would surely have been delighted to pass that information on to us.

I think we can interpret the silence easily enough.

We are stuck on the question of whether, for an absolute certainty, a mayor can get an exemption for farang volunteers to get work permits. Both the ladies may know far more than I do. Nevertheless, I would want to see more than just their informal verbal assurance. I understand that Thailand is more a culture of social relationships than it is a nation under statutory law. But the authorities who punish working farang and alien visitors can do so under statutory law.

Precisely.

And if there had, indeed, been a breakthrough on the WP issue for volunteers, it would be major news !

If there's information that can be shared on how the mayor might be able to make such an arrangement, it would be of great interest to many.

One reason I am disappointed by the CM Friends' silence is that the discussions with the mayor on this matter this might have been (might still be ?) a way into changes or refinements which many would welcome.

Edited June 9, 2008 by sylviex

[Greenside]

In any case, I think we can be quite sure Khun Boong has been made aware of this thread already. It's possible she's not well equipped to respond (see PeaceBlondie's comments above.)

I've just had a short meeting with Kuhn Boong and picked up the forms to apply to teach a small group of municipal staff. She's aware of this thread but, as someone said above would prefer anyone who's interested and has a specific question to email her directly. I also understand that she's recently undergone serious surgery and is not very fit at this time so I'd suggest that unless you're planning to actually take part in the scheme it might be considerate not to add to her workload until she's better. There was an earlier post in which someone expressed an opinion that this effort was self serving in some respect but from her reputation and the little I know of her I'd venture that, other than the contacts one might normally make networking with local officials, this is really a genuine effort to work to improve the city.

I believe that there will be some kind of document that should clarify the situation about the status of the volunteer without a work permit but it won't be quite the "get out of jail free card" signed personally by the Mayor that someone wanted to see before signing up. The permission afforded under this arrangement is very narrow and only applies to the two hours a week involved. I don't think the deal will be as iron clad as I and some of the others on here would ideally like to see before it really gets under way but in a bureaucracy where the rules can change on a whim anyway, what is?

I wonder too, if Thai people can really understand how vulnerable and paraniod we expats really feel, any more perhaps than we are aware of the pressures immigrants to our home countries find themselves under? To the organisers, the fact that the Mayor's office says that they've sorted the WP issue out may really be enough, given that if you're a native you know how to deal with the authorities and don't run the risk (however slight) of being severed from your familiy and deported in short order. To us, floundering around in a system where our brands of logic and consistancy are often in short supply, it doesn't perhaps go as far as we'd like for comfort.

That said, I'm going to move forward with caution in the hope that I get the man responsible for issuing Yellow Books fluent enough to explain to me why I can't get one .

(Brief OT aside on the subject of bureaucratic whims: the lady issuing me with my new driving license this morning had just turned away some poor guy unable to get a Certificate of Residence who now has to go to BKK to visit his Embassy. She looked at mine with amazement, held it up to the light and said "What's going on down at Immigration? Stop, start, stop start." As if I, or anyone else knows. You have to laugh. Or cry.)

[sylviex]

Thanks very much for this post, Greenside.

Sorry to hear Khun Boong has been unwell. I am sure we all wish her a speedy recovery.

I don't think the deal will be as iron clad as I and some of the others on here would ideally like to see before it really gets under way but in a bureaucracy where the rules can change on a whim anyway, what is?

Nothing. However, if an expat ended up in some form of trouble, our own embassies/governments would have difficulty helping us if we had been breaking Thai law.

I wonder too, if Thai people can really understand how vulnerable and paraniod we expats really feel, any more perhaps than we are aware of the pressures immigrants to our home countries find themselves under? To the organisers, the fact that the Mayor's office says that they've sorted the WP issue out may really be enough, given that if you're a native you know how to deal with the authorities and don't run the risk (however slight) of being severed from your familiy and deported in short order. To us, floundering around in a system where our brands of logic and consistancy are often in short supply, it doesn't perhaps go as far as we'd like for comfort.

Well said, and I agree.

The expat members of CM Friends would, however, be fully aware of the illegality of any work conducted without a work permit. I doubt any one of them lack the requisite papers, yet their website promotes volunteer work to the retirees they hope to use their (paid) services without any mention of the WP.

Edited June 9, 2008 by sylviex