Miss Or Mrs

[raro]

Hi girls,

just curious, and don't give me too hard of a spanking, this is possibly my first post in here....anyways...today I read in the BKK post that in Thailand from now on a married woman can now be addressed officially as a "nang sao", i.e. a Miss, and not as "nang", a Mrs. if she wishes so.

Now this was celebrated as an outstanding achievement of feminism and yadayadayada...and I wondered what is the point?? Not married = Miss, married = Mrs.

What is the benefit of a married woman to be addressed as a "Miss"?

over to you, ladies....

[Boo]

I'm with you on this raro, I never even thought about not becoming Mrs & adopting my husbands surname & don't see it should be a big feminist issue if you do or if you don't but this view is coming from a women who comes from a country that has granted that right to women for quite a while already, so I can see why this deciscion has been lauded by womens groups in Thailand as it implies choice.

Being free to chose what you want to be called is a basic right imo & just as I chose to call myself Mrs so other women should be allowed to chose whether they do or not I would suppose (& know from a thread on here in the past covering a similar topic) that some women view the changing of names or title to be a loss to their independance or to suggest ownership, so that thai women now also have the right to decide is step in the right direction imo.

[Pushit]

Hi girls,

just curious, and don't give me too hard of a spanking, this is possibly my first post in here....anyways...today I read in the BKK post that in Thailand from now on a married woman can now be addressed officially as a "nang sao", i.e. a Miss, and not as "nang", a Mrs. if she wishes so.

Now this was celebrated as an outstanding achievement of feminism and yadayadayada...and I wondered what is the point?? Not married = Miss, married = Mrs.

What is the benefit of a married woman to be addressed as a "Miss"?

over to you, ladies....

Could it be Mr = Miss??

[raro]

I'm with you on this raro, I never even thought about not becoming Mrs & adopting my husbands surname & don't see it should be a big feminist issue if you do or if you don't but this view is coming from a women who comes from a country that has granted that right to women for quite a while already, so I can see why this deciscion has been lauded by womens groups in Thailand as it implies choice.

Being free to chose what you want to be called is a basic right imo & just as I chose to call myself Mrs so other women should be allowed to chose whether they do or not I would suppose (& know from a thread on here in the past covering a similar topic) that some women view the changing of names or title to be a loss to their independance or to suggest ownership, so that thai women now also have the right to decide is step in the right direction imo.

it reminds me somewhat ot the German army when they started to get women in. A woman is not a "Hauptmann" but a "Hauptmännin" - which curls up my toenails.

I am quite liberal, but when it comes to twisting ages-old terms to suit the PC brigade....there is something wrong.

I DO agree, however in the free choice of the last name.

Could it be Mr = Miss??

sorry....I somehow Missed your point...

I get my coat....

[meme]

I can not speak on behalf of women in Thailand, or any woman for that matter, but this is what I understand:

Miss=single

Mrs=married

Ms=divorced

Mr=Mr

So I believe some people think it is not right that a woman has to be labeled according to her marriage status, or constantly needing to declare it

There is now a movement in the west to have all women as Ms.

This is just my understanding of the issue.

Edited June 5, 2008 by meme

[wolf5370]

Does this mean that married Thai women can put nang sao on their ID Cards - this is a popular way to see if your GF is/was already married. Not a bother to me (being long taken already), but interesting nevertheless.

[sbk]

Someone pointed out in the other thread that george posted that divorced women were required to keep the mrs on their id cards, even though they were legally divorced. So, that might help clarify some of the issues posters have with this law.

As for me, I am a Mrs, I took my husband's last name. But as far as I am concerned that is MY choice and not the government's right to tell me to do so. I feel that all women should have the right and ability to choose their own names. Seems like a minor point but I believe there are broader implications than just being called Mrs.

[raro]

So I believe some people think it is not right that a woman has to be labeled according to her marriage status, or constantly needing to declare it

somehow a valid point!

There is now a movement in the west to have all women as Ms.

My sister threatens to beat the sh1t out of anybody calling her a "Fräulein" - the German equivalent for Miss. In fact, "Fräulein" is regarded in Germany as a deteriotive and not really as a a friendly address...to prevent nose bleeding, you should address German women rather as "Frau", i.e. Mrs., regardless of their marital status. (HA! here we go again...)

[MiG16]

didnt read all the posts

but I would say its something along the line of what meme said, but I just have a slight different angle to that

yes theres the mrs, miss, and ms.

but if women are able to use ms regardless of if they are married or not, we can move away from the branding thats given to women. having to use either mrs or miss is like walking around with a placard on our forehead to say whether or not we are married

while men are always Mr regardless or being married or not

i think thats the contested point.

Im not divorced, but have always preferred to use Ms my entire adult life. when I last went to renew my passport, they insisted on putting Miss in front of my name. why do I have to advertise whether or not Im married if I dont want to? and why is it that men can remain anonymous as to their marriage status.....

by the way, i have no issue with sharing with people whether or not Im married, single or whatever. but its a question of choice, and of equal treatment

does this explain it from some of the women's perspective?

[meme]

didnt read all the posts

but I would say its something along the line of what meme said, but I just have a slight different angle to that

yes theres the mrs, miss, and ms.

but if women are able to use ms regardless of if they are married or not, we can move away from the branding thats given to women. having to use either mrs or miss is like walking around with a placard on our forehead to say whether or not we are married

while men are always Mr regardless or being married or not

i think thats the contested point.

Differnt angle? Sounds like you are dead on my angle

[mssabai]

I am a ms and proud of it! I inherited it from my mum and have been proudly circling the Ms box on forms since I was 11. My mum was never married and it was partly this reason that made her take Ms (the spinster conotations of being a Miss at 50 were too much to bear), however she (and I) strongly believe that your name should not be a label to your status or lifestyle. I enjoy the enigma of putting Ms and will continue to do so whether I am married, divorced or a spinster!

[BangnaBound]

I don’t think this is a feminist issue, it simply a privacy issue. Under the old law, Thai women’s ID cards indicated marital status, where as men have no indication. None of my id’s from back home have Mr. or Mrs. on them.

The privacy issue comes in when applying for jobs or even university. They ask ridiculous questions, like who is your husband, what is his education and job etc. Guys can get away with skipping this part, but if a woman has Mrs on her id card, she gets forced into filling out a lot of unnecessary paper work.

[icequeen]

I am a mrs and have been since I was 18, I used to get quite offended when people automatically called me miss because of my age even when my title was in front of them in black and white. I would never want to be called Ms but thats just my personal choice so please no one jump on the band wagon over it.

[Andiamo]

I can not speak on behalf of women in Thailand, or any woman for that matter, but this is what I understand:

Miss=single

Mrs=married

Ms=divorced

Mr=Mr

So I believe some people think it is not right that a woman has to be labeled according to her marriage status, or constantly needing to declare it

There is now a movement in the west to have all women as Ms.

This is just my understanding of the issue.

Mmm, I had understood this diferently than you Meme.....

I had understood........

Ms can be used by 1) someone who is divorced

2) someone who is single (& does not want to advertise they are single, i.e. on bank ATM cards, their postal mail,

especially if they live in a communal apartment block with no separate mailboxes so more for personal security,

officialdom - when completing forms etc).

3) someone who is widowed (who does not want to be introduced as Mrs ??? as she may now be looking to meet

a new guy and not wanna start out at the outset by immediately revealing their past.

4) someone who is in a committed relationship and/or living with somebody but has chosen not to marry or has not

yet married

Just my two pennorthworth!

BTW, Ms is VERY common in the UK due to a mixture of the above reasons

Edited June 6, 2008 by Andiamo

[greenmember]

I've heard they wanted to change to "Khun" as this is the safest way, same as "Nai" (Mr) for men. It's so funny if a married woman is addressed as "nang sao" by the new "rule" because Thais for so many years get it as "not having a husband".

If you understand Ms = divorced, you're wrong.

Ms doesn't show marital status.

[meme]

I've heard they wanted to change to "Khun" as this is the safest way, same as "Nai" (Mr) for men. It's so funny if a married woman is addressed as "nang sao" by the new "rule" because Thais for so many years get it as "not having a husband".

If you understand Ms = divorced, you're wrong.

Ms doesn't show marital status.

As I said, "there is a movement to change all women to Ms."

Meaning, as Adiamo explained:

Ms can be used by 1) someone who is divorced

2) someone who is single (& does not want to advertise they are single, i.e. on bank ATM cards, their postal mail,

especially if they live in a communal apartment block with no separate mailboxes so more for personal security,

officialdom - when completing forms etc).

3) someone who is widowed (who does not want to be introduced as Mrs ??? as she may now be looking to meet

a new guy and not wanna start out at the outset by immediately revealing their past.

4) someone who is in a committed relationship and/or living with somebody but has chosen not to marry or has not

yet married

When my mother was divorced in Canada, 26 years ago that was what Ms meant.

I agree with Adiamo, it no longer means only divorced. But for many people that is still what it implies.

[MustaphaMond]

Hi girls,

just curious, and don't give me too hard of a spanking, this is possibly my first post in here....anyways...today I read in the BKK post that in Thailand from now on a married woman can now be addressed officially as a "nang sao", i.e. a Miss, and not as "nang", a Mrs. if she wishes so.

Now this was celebrated as an outstanding achievement of feminism and yadayadayada...and I wondered what is the point?? Not married = Miss, married = Mrs.

What is the benefit of a married woman to be addressed as a "Miss"?

over to you, ladies....

Uh, OK .. BOY I don't want to spank you ( retch!! ) and i think you would have a better chance paying for this as usual at the local " Girl" bar .

( note to censor mod please don't ban me for complaining that women are always refered to as " Girl" , it's like woman is a bad word , he can't even say it at the end, it's " Ladies"

I'm not suggesting ANYONE on TV is a pedophile - it's just the whole world is ...well, pedophiled ....everyone shaving off their pubic hair, referring to women as girls. Do men call themselves "Boys, " ever??? Not really . The word " girl" is beyond slang , it is systemic demeaning of women through common language...)

I don't see how having to choose between 2 titles that reveal your marital status is equality.... It is all about sexual availability and the perceived sate of a woman's virginity,, her hymen what utter sexism .. Men should have to have this requisite too then..I want to know if he is circumcised; MrCut or MrUncut

Edited June 8, 2008 by MustaphaMond

[MustaphaMond]

I've heard they wanted to change to "Khun" as this is the safest way, same as "Nai" (Mr) for men. It's so funny if a married woman is addressed as "nang sao" by the new "rule" because Thais for so many years get it as "not having a husband".

If you understand Ms = divorced, you're wrong.

Ms doesn't show marital status.

Ms. was started by feminists in the early 70's. It just mean female; whether one is married, divorced, single , widowed , virgin, whore whatever ...

WHY do we have this titleing by sexual availability system and men do not ??

That is sexism

Ms means No one's business like Mr. ..... Ms.

Actually why do we need to know gender anyway why not just M. Or why anything at all ????

Can we just get over this sexual divide??

Edited June 8, 2008 by MustaphaMond

[alantheembalmer]

The term "Mister" is indeed neutral of any marital status, and I think that it would be helpful if women had an equally neutral title of address. However, am I alone in thinking that the term "Ms" is virtually unpronouncable, as well as being one of the ugliest concocted words in the English language?

[suegha]

Interesting post above re 'Girls'. It depends on where you're from. In Dublin, my home city for the first 25 years of my life, ladies are always referred to as 'girls' doesn't matter if they are 80! Men are always 'boys' or 'lads', never gentlemen. It's a cultural thing. What makes a word offensive is the intent behind it.

I'll go shop for my newspaper shortly and I know the 'girl' behind the counter will say, "all right lover", she doesn't mean it offensively and I don't take it as such. The pc brigade try to convince us it is - and it is in some situations - but not this one.

In this day and age, in the UK at least, it seems so many people are looking for an opportunity to be offended!

[Boo]

agree suegha

[sbk]

I am over 40. If you want to call me girl, go right ahead. Had someone call me Miss the other day in the shop, nearly kissed the guy

[donna]

i call all women girls. dont have a problem with it at all.

as they say in thailand 'dont tink too mut'.

[Andiamo]

Mmm can't say I agree with the above post about using 'Girls' as offensive terminology!!!!

Where do we get the familiar expressions such as Girl talk, a girlie lunch, a night out with the gals/girls......

I frequently use 'Girls' when with friends even if they are older than me!!! e.g. Ok, girls, ready? Shall we go?

Nobody has ever taken offense.

Now if I was to say "Ok you old grannies, you ready?? ..... I would get a slap for sure!

Edited June 11, 2008 by Andiamo

[suegha]

Just to add to my above post. With this thread in mind I paid attention to the 'girl' in then shop where I buy my newspaper today. I got 'love', lover', 'babe' and 'honey' all in the one transaction. What joy! Wasn't delivered offensively and wasn't taken offensively! She's cool, I like her!

[5tash]

A bit of info on Ms.

[RouxTheDay]

My preference is and always has been Ms., whether I've been single, married, separated or divorced (I've been all of those).

Reason for my preference? In this day and age, when females are no longer chattle (in my western world), and when a female's marital status no longer determines her social status, or lack thereof (again, in my western world), how on earth is my marital status in way, shape or form relevant? The abbreviated form of address Ms. can mean Miss (single) or Missus (married). Either way, it's a variation on the old-fashioned "mistress" (feminine equivalent of "master" for males). I think the infamous "they" should decide that all females will be addressed as either Miss or Missus exclusively, with the other term being dropped from usage entirely as obsolete, antiquated, whatever.

As a slightly off-topic aside, I've also used both my husband's surname and my family surname (aka "maiden" name, another outdated term), interchangeably, according to need and situation. And, I see nothing wrong with a male choosing to do the same.

Oh. And I love the Thai unisex term of address "khun" -- awesome.

[Naam]

it reminds me somewhat ot the German army when they started to get women in. A woman is not a "Hauptmann" but a "Hauptmännin" - which curls up my toenails.

silly claims that something like "Hauptmännin" exists in Germany always make my toenails curl

[Ananke]

Well, there's two issues here isn't there ladies? The title Miss/Mrs/Ms and the actual last name. Very confusing. I chose to keep my own name when I got married, for various reasons (professional, feminism, couldn't be bothered with the paper trail, bla bla ) But then came the whole issue of which title to use :

Miss <Maiden Name> suggests incorrectly that I was unmarried and "living in sin" .

Mrs <Maiden Name> gives me the same name as my mother, and causes a lot of confusion when I trave with my brother or father ...

Ms <Maiden Name> Well, probably the best compromise, so the one I chose, although now I'll be paranoid that it suggest that I am divorced form someone else (e.g. my brother) and living in sin with my husband ....

But the biggest problem about all this surfaced when I became a mom: Having a different surname form your kids can be a real inconvenience. I got stopped and questioned about it at the airport EVERY TIME I travelled alone with my young children!!! When one was in hospital, I had to go through my life's story with each shift-change of nurses (only parents allowed on the ward). In their school, I go by two different names (mine and theris), which invariable confuses everyone.

So, with hindsight, maybe Mrs <Married Name> wouldn't have been so bad after all!

What is the benefit of a married woman to be addressed as a "Miss"?

Exactly! What will it be then? Miss <Husband's Property> or Miss <Father's Property>? Not so feminists either way now, is it? Lol.

[thaiclan]

Im with you there Ananke, becoming a Mum using a different surname always takes some explaining. I don't mind however and it has already brought up the topic with my daughter about how it all works and why.

I chose to keep my own surname and then thought it strange to call myself Mrs as it implied (to myself) I was married to my father or something. uurrghh

Anyway I chose Ms, but many times ppl change it to Miss.

It was never an issue for me, just a simple by-decision I had the luxury and freedom to make. Im glad Thai women have the same freedom too now.