At Least 78 Die After Thailand Riot

[guran]

RDN- moderate muslims are ok by me, but these radicals a small minority give the whole religion a bad name. There lies the problem- the moderates out number the radicals, but don't criticize those that are causing all the grief.

Doubt they could be an independent state- prob claim Phuket to finance new independence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I'm curious as to where a line could be drawn across southern Thailand where those people below the line were 50% or more in favour of a separate state, and those people above the line were 50% or more in favour of staying as part of Thailand.

It reminds me of Northern Ireland, where all the "troubles" were caused by a small minority who wanted Northern Ireland to be part of Eire, but every time a vote was taken in Northern Ireland, something like 75% of people in Northern Ireland wanted to stay part of the UK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some 99% of the population in Patani is said to be muslim.

There seems to have been no immigration to Patani from other parts of Thailand.

As far as I can see there is nothing in common with the situation in Northern Ireland.In fact it reminds me more of the situation in East Timor or Aceh.

[sriracha john]

Well guess those down South will think twice about rioting now

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the exact opposite reaction is most likely. Brutal violence begets violence.

"I am concerned that the incident yesterday will escalate the tension in the south, some groups may try to do something about taking revenge," Abdul Rahman Abdul Samed, the top Muslim official in Narathiwat, told AFP.

[guran]

Well guess those down South will think twice about rioting now

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the exact opposite reaction is most likely. Brutal violence begets violence.

"I am concerned that the incident yesterday will escalate the tension in the south, some groups may try to do something about taking revenge," Abdul Rahman Abdul Samed, the top Muslim official in Narathiwat, told AFP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm afraid britmaveric does not respond to logic.

He seems to think that they are just naughty schoolboys.

[sriracha john]

Islam is strictly a monotheistic faith. There is only one God (Allah), and at the core of Islam stands the Five Pillars:

1. The Attestation of Faith; There is no God, but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.

If only they would be a bit more tolerant of other faiths, maybe they would live in harmony with them. But if they are taught "there is only one god", what can we expect? Zero tolerance from them for us.

Christianity has the same precept, yes? With the insertion of J.C. in place of Muhammad.

[sriracha john]

About 1,300 protesters were arrested and sent to detention at a military camp in the neighbouring province of Pattani. The military camp is about 120 kilometres away from the protest site. It took between five and six hours for the trucks to arrive at the military camp in Pattani. A military source said the trucks arrived at the camp at about 1am yesterday.

"We didn't find any dead bodies with broken arms or legs, but between two or three of them had broken necks which may have been caused from the transportation," Pornthip Rojansunan said.

But Pornthip did not rule out the possibility that the suffocation could have been caused by another party blocking the nostrils and mouths of the protesters to prevent them from breathing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm very familiar with military trucks and I know they certainly can travel faster than 20k/hr, (120k/6 hours), especially in the middle of the night with little traffic.

But then again, if people are going to suffer broken necks while riding in the back of a truck, they must have some huge potholes there.

Usually, it's extremely difficult to breathe when your nostrils and mouth are being blocked.... (by a soldier's hand?)

[ASIC]

Usually, it's extremely difficult to breathe when your nostrils and mouth are being blocked.... (by a soldier's hand?)

Or duct tape?

ASIC

[sriracha john]

The Islamic Society of South Thailand (ISST)Secretary-General Abd Allah Muin al-Din said, "But the days when Thai Muslims were demanding independence or unification with Malaysia have gone - a message that does not seem to have reached Bangkok."

"At a grassroots level, all the Islamic movements I am in touch with crave stability, peace and calm - but with justice."

Muin al-Din believes that one of the many reasons for the instability in the south is the lack of government support or dialogue - a reality that has lead the Muslim minority to feel peace can never be achieved.

"Even before the latest electoral campaign, the prime minister was too busy to handle serious life-and-death issues that affect us.

"This has not changed since the elections and is detrimental to the region. We need the authorities to concentrate on matters of urgency," he said.

"They must recognise our language, culture and ethnicity and deal with the fact that the south is poorer than much of the rest of the country."

He says until such a time as discrimination in the workplace ends and there are genuine opportunities for education and business, not much is going to change.

[Johpa]

It has been ages since the actions of the Thai government have left me speechless. But this horrid event goes well beyond the pale of the normal major screwups of the Royal Thai government.

I see only one hope. And that is for some people in power to get their lazy corrupt asses over to the Palace and engineer a coup against Toxin, the Great Incompetent, by this weekend.

If His Majesty is unable to come out in public and denounce the Toxin government and revoke his support then the damage may take years to repair.

This is no longer simply about crazy hate-filled Muslim fundamentalists. One can alwys argue that the last major incident down south was a defensive action against armed, although youthful, militants. That incident was not excusable by "Western" standards but was within the norm of Southeast Asian standards. But this latest action is only justifiable by Burmese SLORC style standards. If this action is left to stand then many of us here may be forced by circumstances to rethink retirement plans.

Chaiyo or silence?

[britmaveric]

Hardly re-think retirement there, same same as it always will be.

We differ in opinion and my logic is quite sound. If they wanted peace then why riot? One knows how the govt reacts to such incidents so one cant be surprised when smth like this happens.

If they are truely interested in peace- stop attacking govt officials, police stations and generally anarchist like actions. I dare say they WONT DO IT!!!!

[RDN]

Islam is strictly a monotheistic faith. There is only one God (Allah), and at the core of Islam stands the Five Pillars:

1. The Attestation of Faith; There is no God, but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.

If only they would be a bit more tolerant of other faiths, maybe they would live in harmony with them. But if they are taught "there is only one god", what can we expect? Zero tolerance from them for us.

Christianity has the same precept, yes? With the insertion of J.C. in place of Muhammad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I don't know too much about Christianity - I'm Church of England . But I do know that Britain is a "multifaith" country and we (Anglicans) live relatively happily with Muslims, Roman Catholics, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus and others. And everyone has the right to religious freedom. Why do the Muslims in Southern Thailand want a separate country? What would it do for them that Thailand doesn't?

[PvtDick]

Uhhh tourists aren't interested in the deep south I'm afraid- dare say even if they were it wouldn't be a smart place to visit during present climate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most tourists have no idea how far away the deep south is from Bangkok, or from Phuket or Samui for that matter. They see "Thailand" in the headlines, and Thailand gets scratched off their list of tourist destinations.

[stumonster]

the results in mr T's war on violence....

in other news, stupidity will be combated by imbecilic television soap operas.

this incident will ensure that attacks against those viewed as officials of the central government will escalate.

[Goat Roper]

I sure hope this "suffocation death" claim doesn't turn into a circus, I love this country and always try to defend what is done here in a small sort of way but I had to scowl a bit when I read this news.

[mbkudu]

Now you're just 'generalising.'

[george]

Update:

Thaksin admits mistakes over Muslim deaths

BANGKOK, Oct 27 (Reuters) - Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said on Wednesday security forces had made mistakes in their handling of a Muslim riot and voiced regret at the loss of nearly 80 lives in military custody.

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters. But mistakes happened during the transfer of the arrested people to trucks," Thaksin told parliament.

The comments were his first since officials said late on Tuesday that 78 male protesters had died of suffocation on Monday while being transported to a detention centre at a military barracks in Thailand's restive, predominantly Muslim south.

"I regret the loss of lives in a way that should not have happened, due to suffocation. I will order a committee to be set up to investigate the situation," Thaksin said.

--Reuters- 2004-10-27

[Simbo]

Can't imagine that happening in the UK, unless it was in an overcrowded football stadium.

[danone]

killing over 80 people and speaking of "some mistakes" ...

go figure with what respect for the grassroot people they reign this country

disgusting.

[Artisi]

As this is not my country and being a farang I am powerless to do much about what does on even though I am in complete disagreement and extremely upset with the blunders and disasters continually perpetrated by the authorities.

I watch and observe and feel anger on behalf of the powerless people of this country who day after day after day are subject to one F***-up after another by the authorities.

The world is crying about what is happening in the middle–east with world TV coverage etc – in Thailand it is no different with just as many lives lost - but who really cares- certainly not the Thai authorities. Sure we see some inane statements made, a few people moved to inactive posts, re-shuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic - but next week same thing again.

This latest disaster is a complete train-wreck and already the excuses are made:

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters. But mistakes happened during the transfer of the arrested people to trucks," Thaksin told parliament.

And we can already see the outcome –

Oh F*** ! who can we blame.

Have I got my arse covered.

Anyway it didn’t hurt me.

They were only trouble makers.

When will it end, soon enough is not good enough.

[astral]

I do not think there was anything wrong with the initial response.

What do you do with a MOB demanding the release of suspected gun thieves?

The handling of the arrests and the subsequent deaths due to suffocation

was big blunder by the military, and heads should roll.

Whether they do, remains to be seen.

Tough action is needed here by the PM, not the Gentle touch which should be reserved for other matters!!

Edited October 27, 2004 by astral

[dseawarrior]

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters. But mistakes happened during the transfer of the arrested people to trucks," Thaksin told parliament." (Thaksin)

Bullets, water cannons, tear gassing, and mass suffocations...

If these are "gentle measures," I do want to see the harsher responses...

Is anyone around here hip to "Nonviolent Communication" or nonviolent responses to mass gatherings/ protests?

So far, it seems that the authorities have handled this situation about as badly as they possibly could. But, I could be wrong. I wasn't there...

I worry about the fallout and blow-back from this latest incident in the days and weeks to come...

Violence only begets more violence. We need to come up with some fresh strategies about how to handle this and avert further tragedy and disaster...

Who else is thinking about constructive solutions and remediations? I am happy to volunteer some help, but I have no idea as to which channels I should work through...

dseawarrior

in Chiang Mai

[george]

Update:

Govt to investigate scores of death of local residents in South

BANGKOK: -- The government will set up a committee to investigate a recent incident in which scores of local residents in Thailand's southernmost province of Narathiwat reportedly died from suffocation on a six-wheel truck carrying them to an army camp in the nearby Pattani Province.

The prime minister told a Senate special meeting here this morning that results of the official investigation would be a good reference for all parties concerned to prevent any repetition of the undesirable incident in the future.

He conceded that an initial investigation found that the local residents apparently died from suffocation due to the crowded condition on the truck and their fatigue, adding that some of those who had died were found to be drug addicts.

The Thai leader expressed his sorrow for the unexpected tragedy, saying that local authorities had resorted to their utmost attempts to avoid using forces but being in vain, and the forces were used inevitably to keep the unrest under control.

Over 1,000 local residents rounded up the Tak Bai Police Station in Narathiwat on Monday in an attempt to press for the release of six inmates accused of gun theft.

As more and more people besieged the police station, the local police realized that it was not an ordinary visit as they had claimed.

The six men have been accused of one of the worst acts of insurgency in the southern border region – the theft of guns from village defence volunteers.

As chaos erupted around the prison walls, soldiers and police officers fired into the air, while the visitors attempted to surge into the jail but were stopped by water cannons.

This led to a clash between the local officers and the mob, resulting in dozens casualties--six died and about 44 were injured, 14 of whom are the local officers.

Eventually the local officers were able to close off all routes into the Tak Bai Police Station, but not before damages had been done to steel barriers and cars parked nearby.

Another 78 of the mob who were arrested reportedly died later from suffocation in a six-wheel truck carrying them to a military camp--the Inkayuth Bariharn Camp--in Nong Jik District of the nearby Pattani Province.

The prime minister told the Senate special meeting that the current spate of unrest in the country's deep South was caused by distorted Islamic teachings and some separatist attempts by militants.

However, members of the Senate urged the government to take the responsibility of the incident and make compensations to families of the dead residents.

Meanwhile, Gen. Sirichai Thanyasiri, who heads the government's command centre on promoting peace and order in the deep South told journalists here that the committee on investigating the incident had already been set up.

--TNA 2004-10-27

[wolf5370]

It seems Thaksin can't win.

If he repeats the scene of a few months ago when 100 or so Muslims were killed attacking the police he is attacked by the media - especially in the west. So, he tries softly-softly tactics and arrests the disidents.

Logistics in transporting 1,300 rioters is incredably difficult, especially when the people on the ground are under attack, vehicles capable of prison transport thin on the ground and time of the essence. Few millitary personnel or police anywhere in the world would have such training.

So, should he sit back and let these people attack the police, raid millitary bases for arms and explosives, burn schools and murder children and monks. Of course not. In such circumstances any action will have consequences and often result in loss of life; the alternative of doing nothing is worse.

With the west and the media continually critisising and alienative Thaksin's government, a time will come when his government decides its not worth listening to the world as he will be critisised anyway. Then any action taken may be excessive and without the limiting factor of world reputation.

A difficult time and extreamly hard issue. Thaksin has come out and admitted the failings, and he will learn from this; such is inevitable. Remember it is the disidents that force the issue and the government can only be dismissive, defensive or aggressive. Mass arrest is defensive - many leaders would have opted for the latter; Thaksin has learnt from the slaughter last year and the problems from the drug crackdown a while back. His government continues to evolve and, in my opinion, he is endeavouring to be a responsible leader in as far as this crisis goes.

How many died at the hands of police and the millitary in riots in the west, let alone countries like China, India, Pakistan etc.

[wilko]

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters@

Anyone viewing the TV footage can see that this is not the case; did Mr Taksin not see it?

As for blaming the Ramadan fast; is this not idiocy following lunacy following incompetancy?

[wolf5370]

While writting my last post, several other posts have come in. I agree with Astral, but think some of the others need to take a break from planet Cookoo-Land!

These people have been burning schools and killing children and monks. The government is being pressed continually to sort out the violence - do you want them perpetrators shot, arrested or left to continue. Think about it.

It was a 'peaceful' riot last time that ended up with mobs of young muslims attacking police. It ended in over 100 dead.

Some of you guys think it can be sorted with a quick round-the-table chat. It can't. Britain was bombed time and time again by the IRA and splinter groups, despite peace accords/talks - tentative peace now, but how long did it take (and how much did 9/11 play in this, with Americans less willing to fund terroists). Eta is still

'at war' with Spain. Terrorism rages the world over and little can be done. This is new to Thailand; it will take time to fix (if its possible at all) and will have many setbacks. Many Muslims terrorists are raging because they see it as their duty, Jihad. No appeasing these misguided people.

Innocents get caught up in riots all the time. Every riot ever started as a 'peaceful gathering of protesters'.

SOmeone said "So far, it seems that the authorities have handled this situation about as badly as they possibly could". Are you sure you can't think of a worse way? How about when Britain open fired on a square full of Indian protesters that led the way to India's independance? Examples of how our governments have handled such crises litter our recent and not so recent past guys.

Water Cannon, plastic bullets, stun guns, tear gass - allm extreame measures of crowd control. Not as extreame as a volley from an SA80 though I'd say.

[slim]

I agree entirely with Wolfs post.

If the Muslim south want to take on the Thai Government they know the consequences.

Having said that, I'd respect Thaksin more if he was honest with his comments.

He conceded that an initial investigation found that the local residents apparently died from suffocation due to the crowded condition on the truck and their fatigue, adding that some of those who had died were found to be drug addicts.

This goes with his previous comment about many of the protestors were weak from fasting through Ramadan.

Are these comments for Thai consumption who are likely to believe him?

Thaksin should be honest enough to admit that he has the same policy for insurrectionists as he has for drug dealers - shoot or kill first - ask questions later and if you don't like it - ask me if I'm bothered.

[JemJem]

I don't agree at all with Wolf's post. Violence usually brings about more violence. And, the deaths of so many people in such a manner is totally unacceptable.

Just because similar stuff happens in other countries (and that won't be that many countries, trust me), should we see this kind of thing as 'acceptable' ? I think NOT.

I am wondering if heads will roll after this tragic incident ?! I sort of doubt it ! Maybe there will just be the transfer of a few lowly-ranked guys to other posts. I think most of you will agree that will be the outcome.

Regards,

Jem

[I'm watchin you]

I doubt that this is going to help, violence never dosn't stops violence.

What a nice way to die by suffocation, gee is Hitler in power here!

[katyusha]

Pattanis are not Thai, they're Malay, an ethnic and religious minority living in a Buddhist country and tolerated by that country only as long as they behave in an acceptable civilized manner.

Since the start of 2004, Pattani dissidents have burned schools and desecrated shrines and shot monks and policemen on numerous occasions.

What response would you expect from Malaysian troops if you and several hundred Buddhists began a campaign of burning schools and desecrating mosques and shooting mullahs and policemen ?

What response would you expect from Saudi troops if you and several hundred Christians began a campaign of burning schools and desecrating mosques and shooting mullahs and policemen ?

Pattanis are heavily armed. They've stolen enough firepower to start a full scale war, and knowing this, Thai troops showed remarkable restraint. This time. Maybe next time they won't be so restrained.

[udon]

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters. But mistakes happened during the transfer of the arrested people to trucks," Thaksin told parliament.

Maybe Toxin doesn't have a telly...... It's on every tv stn in Oz and I assume throughout the world today.

"Visit South Thailand, the HUB of massacres by the Royal Thai Army"

I hold no truk for militant Islamists buy this latest outrage is inexcusable! (sp)

[JemJem]

I fully agree with udon......I am also fully against Islamist (and other types of) extremism but these suffocation deaths are inexcusable !

By the way, a typically idiotic and hateful post from katyusha (errr, I mean 'rod-kalashnikov'). When will he become 'Mr. Uzi', I wonder ?

Cheers,

Jem