Militants Threaten To Strike Bangkok

[thaidancer]

I can't believe what some of you guys are saying!! The Muslims are the victims here, we are the ones being oppressed. Muslims seemed to get screwed by the west and the outside all the time. Now read the below article and then you will understand why we are fighting back.

Early History

According to many historical sources, the ancient Hindu-Malay empire of Langkasuka was centered in Pattani, todays southern Thailand, which encompasses of modern Malaysia states Kelantan, Terengganu and northern Kedah, as well as modern Thai provinces of Pattani, Yala, Narathiwat, Songkhla and Satun.

While when exactly Pattani was Islamized is in debate, it was certainly one of the earliest Malay kingdoms to adopt the Middle Eastern religion around mid-13th Century. The kingdom adopted the name Patani under the rule of Sultan Ismail Shah. According to local folklore, he was finding a spot for the kingdoms new capital, and when he arrived to the place he liked best, he shouted Pantai Ini! which means in Malay, This Beach! According to most accounts, this capital is thought to be todays modern Kru Se (Kampung Grisek).

It is widely believe that Pattani is one of the oldest kingdoms on the Malay peninsular. Pattani was known to the Western world, especially in 1516 when Portuguese explorer Godinho de Eredia landed on its port. The fall of Malacca five years before that increased Pattanis popularity with Indian-Muslim traders; competing viciously with northern Sumatra kingdom of Acheh.

During the massive Burmese attack from the north against the ancient Siamese kingdom of Ayutthaya, Pattanis Sultan Muzaffar Shah took this advantage and launched an attack on Ayutthaya in 1563. He however mysteriously died during battle.

Pattanis golden age was during the reign of its four successive queens from 1584, known as Raja Hijau (The Green Queen), Raja Biru (The Blue Queen), Raja Ungu (The Purple Queen) and Raja Kuning (The Yellow Queen), where the kingdoms economic and military strength was greatly increased and managed to fight off at least four Siamese invasions with the help of the eastern Malay kingdom of Pahang and the southern Malay kingdom of Johore.

Thai Annexation

During the reign of Pattani's last Queens in the 17th Century, the kingdom fell into disarray and went into gradual decline. A Siamese leader, Phraya Taksin, drove off the Burmese invaders out of Siam in a war of independence. His successor, Rama I, established the Chakri Dynasty, which still rules Thailand till today. The reunited and stronger Siamese army was to face another Burmese raid and demanded troops from from a reluctant Pattani.

Prince Surasi, Rama I's prince, invaded Pattani and its Sultan Muhammad was killed in battle and his capital razed to the ground. According to local sources, 4,000 Malay men was taken to Bangkok in chains and made into slaves digging Bangkoks system of khlongs (canals) To further humiliate the Pattanese, the symbol of Pattani's military strength – the Seri Patani and Seri Negara cannons, was brought to Bangkok and it is today displayed in front of the Ministry of Defense.

On 1791 and 1808, there were several unsuccessful rebellions within Pattani against their Thai conquerors. Following which, Pattani was divided into 7 largely autonomous states – Pattani, Nongchik, Saiburi (Teluban), Yala (Jalur), Yaring (Jambu), Ra-ngae (Legeh) and Reman. All these was ruled by the Raja Ligor. For several months, there was a period of independence when along with Kedah Malays, Pattanese drove the Thais out. This however was short-lived.

In 1902, Pattani was formally annexed by Siam, followed a 1909 Bangkok Treaty with the British recognizing it. All seven provinces were united into a monthon and incorporated into the kingdom. Later on the central government in Bangkok renamed certain localities with Thai-sounding names, as well as merging together some of the provinces. When the monthon was dissolved in 1933 three provinces remained - Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat.

Greater Pattani State

During World War II, Thailand was an ally with Japan and allowed its southern territory to invade British dependencies and colonies on the Malay peninsular. Tun Mahmud Mahyuddin, a Pattani leader, allied himself with the British in promises that after the war should they win, Pattani would be granted independence.

The major source of support came from the Malay people frustrated with the Rathaniyom policy during the reign of Pibul Songgram where Malays were subjected to assimilation and forced to abandon large amounts of their indigenous culture.

The Malay leader collaborated with the British in launching guerrilla attacks against the Japanese. In 1945, a petition of Malay leaders lead by Tengku Abdul Jalal demanded from the British independence of the 4 southern provinces from Thailand. After the war, there was a period where the Greater Pattani State (Negeri Patani Raya) flag rose in Pattani. However soon enough, the British broke its war promises; reestablished Thai presence in Pattani and the hopes of an independent Pattani was shattered.

This immediately gave rise to many insurgency groups seeking independence. British reasoning behind this move however is to keep Thailand stable, because they are seen as a strategic counterweigh to the communist insurgency in China, Indochina and Malaya.

Islamic Republic of Pattani

During the World War II, along with the Greater Pattani Malay Movement lead by Tun Mahmud Mahyuddin, another guerrilla force under the leadership of Islamic scholar Haji Sulong Tokmina fought alongside against the Japanese. Their stated goal is to create a Islamic republic in Pattani, which frequently put it at odds with Tun Mahmud who wants to reestablish the Pattanese Sultanate (being a prince himself).

Today, the goals and ideas of Haji Sulong Tokmina is still carried on by minor terror groups interested in creating a Islamic republic closely imitating that of the Islamic Revolution in Iran. After the war though, hopes of any independent republic in Pattani was quickly dashed by the British and the Thais.

Pattani United Liberation Organization

PULO is the most notorious terror group in the south of Thailand. Its platform is shared between Islamic and nationalistic goals, calling Thai presence in Pattani as a breach of Islamic land by infidels.

Its goals however are more notorious and often placed Thailands southern neighbor in the middle of this conflict. Its stated aims are to secede from Thailand through military and political means and unite with Malaysia as a state named Pattani Darussalam (Pattani, State of Peace). Their zeal is further enflamed when petroleum is found off-shore of Pattanis coast.

Their flag resembles closely to Malaysias, having four red and white stripes and a black rectangular on the upper left with a crescent and a star. In 2003 and 2004, the unrest started by an arms theft in a Thai military installation was quickly blamed by the media on PULO, though Thaksins administration blames bandits in what many say an effort to maintain warming relations with Malaysia.

PULO is widely seen to have connections with other regional terror groups, including Achehs Independence Movement of Acheh (GAM). In 2004, Thaksins administration admitted that weapons from southern Thailand made it across the straits to Acheh. Many speculated that PULO had supplied GAM with those weapons. In 2003 too, Thailand had demanded that several Thai clerics seen as PULO leaders be arrested by Malaysian police.

[meom]

I can't believe what some of you guys are saying!! The Muslims are the victims here, we are the ones being oppressed. Muslims seemed to get screwed by the west and the outside all the time. Now read the below article and then you will understand why we are fighting back.

I think I can understand why you are fighting back but you better make sure you win otherwise you end up losing more than you had to start with. I doubt if in the present climate you stand a big chance of winning because the western world seems more united than the muslims who are often bitching amongst themselves.

[Sangsom]

I sincerely liked and appreciated the lenghty historical overview by thaidancer! It reminds me of the remarks by a Dutch writer from the 19 th century (Bilderdijk) that reads ( I try to translate this is accurate as possible): In the past we find our presence, in the presence we find what is to be.

In other words we always must look back into history to see why things became as they are presented to us now and be aware that we are making history now ourselves!

[sonthaya]

Muslim teachings has always been radical from the start.

Let's put it this way, in the Koran it tells a story of a war between muslims and other religion.

At one point before going to a battle the muslim were out numbered and they got scared. So the prophet muhhamad who was leading this battle told his men to bring along their wives and children into battlegrounds so they would fight to protect their wives and children from the enemy. And as usual who ever died for the religion during war will have his/her place in heaven.

I find this sick! The prophet muhammad would do anything to protect his interest and people worship him for that!

Another example, if i may...

In the islamic teachings women have no say against  their husband

1) As all of us know one man entitle for 4 wives if they can afford it.

2) The wife has no right to question the husband where is going or what time is he coming back or who is he going with.

3) If the wife is "sick" (those time of the month) and the husband "feels" he wants it. The wife MUST satisfy the husband at all cost no matter what. If not she is consider unfaithful and the husband could divorce her because of that.

And, if you are a muslim who wish to convert to other beliefs, you'll be burried with your head sticking out. And every person in town that sees you would throw stones at you until you die. Talk about choices in the world!

So basicly islamic teachings sucks! And being one make it worst!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can only agree with you, I have lived 30 years in Muslim countries around the Middle East and north Africa, it's a stoneage religion.

[usatrader]

First of all, I wish to thank Thaidancer for presenting this insightful historical perspective as to some root causes of the Thai-Muslim problem in the South.

As I have stated before my extended Thai family has Buddhist, Muslims and Christians and even an agnostic, me, in it. We have Brits, Yanks, native Thais’, and ethnic Chinese and Indian 2nd and 3rd generation Thais as well.

As such, I am convinced the real issue with Muslims in Thailand and elsewhere is not one about Muslim people nor the Islamic Religion per se but is more about conflicting political desire and as such is falsely attributed by disingenuous extremists on all sides as related to the larger global extremist movement and it’s of tools of division.

However, I would add that I would respectfully disagree with the notion that it is strictly or otherwise a conspiracy by Americans and or westerners in general to persecute the Islamic religion and as such the Muslim peoples.

Though I am still of a mind that this a Thai national issue still removed for the most part from this larger ideological conflict, it appears the Fahrang dominated majority here desire to make it pathetically a part of this larger issue so egocentrically related to them instead of Thailand.

As such I would add an observation of at least a puzzling concern. The one thing that, in some ways does and others does not, demur to the Muslim persecution conspiracy theory is the scale, diversity and range of conflicts worldwide involving Muslims and others that are clearly non-Muslims.

If indeed it is a worldwide conspiracy it’s participant diversity is wide-ranging and not well identified as having homogeneous political, societal and ethnic tendencies with easily definable commonality of motive and purpose. Of course, with one exception, that being each incidence of conflict involves some form of Muslim political/religious organization and or group.

Of course there are indeed numerous possibilities beyond the commonality approach. Similarly, each, on its own, have numerous hard to evidence but not impossible to prove assumptions that would easily create disagreement and avoid consensus.

Let’s examine commonality not by motive or intent, as these are as nearly diverse as the number of incidences. Let us look at just the number of incidences of conflict involving Muslims and non-Muslims.

1. Thailand – Muslims vs Buddhist

2. Afghanistan - Extremist Muslims vs Moderate Muslims (post Us invasion)

3. Bosnia -Muslims vs. orthodox Christians

4. Côte d'Ivoire -Muslims vs. Christians

5. Cyprus - Muslims vs. Christians

6. East Timor - Muslims vs. Christians

7. India - Muslims vs. Hindus, Shiks & Animist

8. Indonesia, - Muslims and Christians (province of Ambon)

9. Indonesia, - Muslims vs. Christian (province of Halmahera)

10. Kashmir - Muslims vs. Hindus

11. Kosovo - Muslims vs. Orthodox Christians

12. Kurdistan - Muslims vs. Christians

13. Macedonia - Muslims vs. Christians

14. Lebanon - Muslims vs. Christians

15. Israel - Muslims vs. Jews

16. Saudi Arabia - Extremist Muslims vs. semi-Secular Muslims

17. Jordan - Extremist Muslims vs. semi-Secular Muslims

18. Nigeria - Muslims vs. Christians and Animist

19. Pakistan - Sunni & Shiite Muslims

20. Philippines - Muslims vs. Christians

21. Russia, Chechnya – Muslins vs. Orthodox Christians

22. Serbia, - Muslims vs. Orthodox Christian (province of Vojvodina)

23. Sudan - Muslims vs. Christians & Animist

24. Uganda - Muslims vs. Christians & Animist

25. Spain - Muslins vs. Christians

26. France - Muslims vs. Christian

27. UK - Muslims vs. Christians

28. US - Muslims vs. Christians

29. Iraq - Sunni & Shiite Muslims

30. Iran - Sunni & Shiite Muslims + Kurds

31. Chad - Muslims vs. Non-Muslims

32. Turkey - Muslims vs. Kurds

33. Australians - Muslins vs. Christians (Bali)

I am sure there are others, but just looking at this list we see a diverse group with very little in common politically, socially or ethically. Of course there are religious commonalities but as I said there is a good possibility that the roots of these various conflicts may not be religion but more locally and as such politically rooted.

Likewise, poverty and lack of opportunity as in the poor against the rich is not evidenced in these diverse conflicts as well as the evidence shows equally poor against poor somewhat profusely.

Leaving me to conclude that this so called Islamic movement by Benny Ho Ho and his boys is one of hopeful thievery via the incorporation of mostly local political conflict into their vision of a more globalizes conflict about religion.

What thoughtful Muslims and westerns alike need to access are the ramifications and implications of Benny and boys succeeding in globalizing their dreams.

What are these people’s motives and desires? For example in Southern Thailand, where Thaidancer pointed out, the reasonable motive is one of an independent Islamic state free of Thai and Buddhist domination. Will ties to a global Muslim –Non Muslim conflict brings the southerners any closer to their goal or will it brings the opposite outcome for them?

If these Global adventurers begin to succeed will this actually enhance the plight of Muslims in the world? If so how?

Did we see a glimpse of their vision for the world in the Taliban? Is this the vision of all Muslims? Theocratic-ism or despotism how, pray tell, do they differ?

Will this effort eventual bring on the hoped for prophecy of doom for America and the west as its rhetoric suggests? If not what are the chances it’s growth as a global movement will not bring the inverse of its dreams not to America and the west but rather to the Muslim world that embraces it?

Likewise, as is readily accepted rhetoric these day the Americans and the west generally are alleged to be the sole and exclusive contributors to this oppression and conspiracy against Islam, as such, it is equally implied, by the rhetoric of the day, that the Islamic world and its peoples are dubiously of clean hands and pure of spirit in total non-complicity as to the outcomes of the events that have befallen them.

As such, first of all, is it true Islam and the world’s Muslim population is without sin and complicity in these far ranging conflicts that engage them?

Secondly, can any of the extremist’s supporters point to any concrete undisputable positive improvement this so called global movement has contributed to the lot of Muslims and Islam as a whole?

That is all

P.S.

“Phormio”

You ARE NOT.

Were it to be so simple as this, oh were it to be so simple.

You're so wrong, with head buried so deep in the sand, maybe you'll get lucky and only your ass'll get blown off.

Ever hear of a regional interrogation center? Lets say 1960ish. Shipped Viet Congs out to Thailand for torture, oops i mean "interrogation".

It is hard indeed to retort to such allegations expressed with such elegance and grace, but my learned comrade seem to have embellished the facts just a little.

First, beyond the Air America and standard Embassy CIA functionaries based in Thailand during Vietnam there was one additional small detachment present in Bangkok, Thailand, known as Detachment K of the U.S. Army's 500th Military Intelligence Group based in Hawaii. This detachment was disbanded in 1977.

Its is absolutely a joke to infer even in stupidity and flaming anti-Americanism that the US need interrogation center for Vietnamese in Thailand.

One, the US intelligence community had PICP (Province Interrogation Center programs) that later became PICCP (Province Intelligence Coordination Committee program) all over Vietnam.

Second, the South Vietnamese were most adaptive at the art of interrogation needing little help in that regard.

Third, my history deficient friend fails to consider the Thai’s also faced an expanding internal security problem from Thais trained in the People's Republic of China, their movement across Laos supported by a joint Pathet Lao/North Vietnamese Army special command. The aim of these Thai dissidents was to overthrow the government of the Kingdom of Thailand, or at least to make it appear that way. Reason one for Thai Interrogation centers setup with US help.

Likewise, the Thai’s had a Vietnamese refugee problem where known units of North Vietnamese intelligence personnel attempted to recruit and direct terror attacks on US and Thai facilities. As such Vietnamese were also interrogated at these Thai Interrogation centers.

As such, the US turned many into a cadre of double agents usefully blunting the Vietnamese effort to expand the war into Thailand.

In terms of current events, Thailand, though originally involved in Iraq with a few hundred medical personal has subsequently decided its best interest were to withdrawal and has done so.

Again, in Thailand’s own best internal interest, like most countries in the world, including France, Germany Russia and China, they have continued to support the intelligence efforts against the likes of one of the world's sought after Terrorist, Hambali, who was Asia's most-wanted terrorist suspect. The Thai Government did hand him over to the US authorities and he was breifly questioned at an undisclosed location in Thailand following his arrest in Ayutthaya. In as much,

Thailand received $10million USD for his capture.

I would say if you have a problem with that well....

We know the type that would have a problem with terrorist being arrested and interrogated don’t we?

Separation of the conflict is impossible at this point. It'll be SOME BIG business in Thailand, its just a question of how soon.

Watch out for any suspicious fuel trucks on Sukhumvit

Is that silliness supposed to frighten someone or as I surmise, prove to the rest of us your sympathies and desires?

That is finally all!

[stroll]

Though I am still of a mind that this a Thai national issue still removed for the most part from this larger ideological conflict, it appears the Fahrang dominated majority here desire to make it pathetically a part of this larger issue so egocentrically related to them instead of Thailand.

Well said, unfortunately there are attempts by more extreme agitators from Arab nations as well as from anti-Islam farangs to hi-jack the issue for their global politics.

[samran]

I was responding to Pepe', who is an American;  I find the simplistic statement that "all Muslim terrorists must die" quite frightening........This is the level of rhetoric that Americans seem comfortable with, and I just don't think it will get us (the civilised people of the world, who don't believe that all problems can be solved by killing those who disagree with us) anywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Americans have the right to talk like this I talk like this, 3000 of my fellow countrymen died and the muslim's are right in what they did!!!!! Give me a break.

The muslims are in different country's Why?? because they want to eradicate everyone and take over the world. don't you see this?? malaysia they are in bosnia chechnya and the &lt;deleted&gt; middle east. when are you gonna wake up!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IamMaiC,

Just a couple of questions. Did it ever occur to you that there were a substantial amount of people who weren't Americans who were in the WTC as well? Doesn't this give them the right to make a statement about these things too that may be different to yours?

Another question, from time to time you like to make a song and dance about the fact that you are half Thai. Have by any chance you lived in Thailand, for anything longer than a 2 week holiday - or does your familiarity of Thailand extend only so far as Thai food (like you state on your website)?

Are you familiar with Thai politics? Have you ever live in Southern Thailand like some of us?

If not, then, using your rule of thumb, you shouldn't really comment on topics such as this one, lest you look more of a fool than you already are. Most people in this forum don't take to well with extremist views, wherever they come from.

Yours sincerely, with total love and respect

Samran.

[thaidancer]

I was responding to Pepe', who is an American;  I find the simplistic statement that "all Muslim terrorists must die" quite frightening........This is the level of rhetoric that Americans seem comfortable with, and I just don't think it will get us (the civilised people of the world, who don't believe that all problems can be solved by killing those who disagree with us) anywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Americans have the right to talk like this I talk like this, 3000 of my fellow countrymen died and the muslim's are right in what they did!!!!! Give me a break.

The muslims are in different country's Why?? because they want to eradicate everyone and take over the world. don't you see this?? malaysia they are in bosnia chechnya and the &lt;deleted&gt; middle east. when are you gonna wake up!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Samran it was the Muslims that were being attacked in Chechnya and Kosovo. Look at the slaughter that happened in those two countries by the Russians and Milosevic. And the only thing that these two countries wanted was Independence, but what they got was mass slaughter of thousands of Muslims. Did you ever wonder why 911 happened? It is because of American foreign policy that likes to shake hands and sell chemical weapons to people like Saddam and other dictators. The U.S. is controlling most of the puppet governments in the middle east especially in Saudi which then oppress the people of that country and because of this the people have the right to be angry. The current administration in the U.S. supports the apartheid Israeli policy against the Palestinians and you wonder why they are so pissed? Look at Iraq where American soldiers are raping and killing Iraqi men women and children. Or even look at the history of your government in south America, it doesn't look to stellar now does it? Look at the situation right now in Thailand. After WW2 the British promised the Muslims in southern Thailand that they can have their own country if they help them beet the Japanese. The Thai Muslims fought bravely and gave their blood only to be told afterwards by the British that they couldn't have their independence and you wonder why people are so mad, because we keep getting shafted every turn we make. So please stop watching CNN for your info and get an education before you place judgment. Now I don't want to sit here and slam the U.S. I believe that the U.S. has the power to create peace only if they would kick that Nazi Bush out of power, and put the power back into the hands of the people, because I generally believe that Americans are good people capable of bringing peace to the world and not war, by changing how they conduct their foreign policy.

[stroll]

I doubt if in the present climate you stand a big chance of winning because the western world seems more united than the muslims who are often bitching amongst themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excuse me but what has 'the western world' to do with a conflict in Southern Thailand?

Besides, the US failed to coerce the western world into being 'united'.

[usatrader]

Samran it was the Muslims that were being attacked in Chechnya and Kosovo.

Look at the slaughter that happened in those two countries by the Russians and Milosevic.

And the only thing that these two countries wanted was Independence, but what they got was mass slaughter of thousands of Muslims.

Did you ever wonder why 911 happened?

It is because of American foreign policy that likes to shake hands and sell chemical weapons to people like Saddam and other dictators.

The U.S. is controlling most of the puppet governments in the middle east especially in Saudi which then oppress the people of that country and because of this the people have the right to be angry.

The current administration in the U.S. supports the apartheid Israeli policy against the Palestinians and you wonder why they are so pissed?

Look at Iraq where American soldiers are raping and killing Iraqi men women and children. Or even look at the history of your government in south America, it doesn't look to stellar now does it?

Look at the situation right now in Thailand.

After WW2 the British promised the Muslims in southern Thailand that they can have their own country if they help them beet the Japanese. The Thai Muslims fought bravely and gave their blood only to be told afterwards by the British that they couldn't have their independence and you wonder why people are so mad, because we keep getting shafted every turn we make.

So please stop watching CNN for your info and get an education before you place judgment.

Now I don't want to sit here and slam the U.S. I believe that the U.S. has the power to create peace only if they would kick that Nazi Bush out of power, and put the power back into the hands of the people, because I generally believe that Americans are good people capable of bringing peace to the world and not war, by changing how they conduct their foreign policy.

Thaidancer,

As I pointed out in my earlier post there are many self-responsible alternatives available to the Muslim world but first they need to look at the root causes beyond blaming everyone else beside themselves for the wide ranging and multi-cultural/national conflicts they are involved in. There are 33 conflicts listed as involving commonly Muslims. Surely there is some Muslim responsibility for this? The fault can not be exclusively non-Muslins can it?

Though as an American and yes even a voter for Bush this time around, I can still appreciate your point of view as to the outcomes of events and how they have turned out for many Muslims. Obviously these outcomes are relevant and important and should not be look over and or diminished in consequence.

But I must say in all candor and respect having taken the blunt of many years of American bashing representations that have been presented by various nationalities, groups and religions, who at one time, but not necessarily at another, perceive America as not having acted in their specific groups opinionated interests, I find this retort “that it is everybody but our fault” some what disingenuous and conflictingly without self critical examination.

Over the last 40 years in my travels, I have met many nationalities abroad and in their native countries that have at one time warmly welcomed me and expressed their personal gratitude and praise, not for something I did, but, rather about something my country had done for them and or their people at one time or another.

Likewise, over these same years, I have been personally confronted and as such, taken the brunt of various political and social, cynicisms, criticism, anger, hatred and even threats of bodily harm by nationals from those same nations where I had at one time or another, sometime concurrently, receive warm reception and praise.

The actual common denominator in these Freudian inverse reactions were, in my estimation, the perception of a real, imagined or propagandized act or deed done by my government which this particular nationality or subset of nationality, at that particular time, perceived as being favorable and or unfavorable to their point of view at that time and place in the universe.

In Israel once, on the same trip, I was threaten by a orthodox Jew for positions my country was taking at the time on the issue of settlements, A week later in Beirut, just north of there, my life was threatened by 15 year old Arab Muslim boy armed with an AK-47 as he ranted about America being pro- Israeli.

My point being, as in real life, those with problems that they will not or can not face and resolve on their own, find it lazily convenient and unproblematic to blame as being caused, not by their actions, deeds and missteps, but rather infallibly someone else’s deeds, acts or missteps were causative of their current predicament or impediment.

They say this as though they have no fault or consequence and are of pure spirit and deed as to the events that has befallen them. Like heroin to an addict, in their mind, it’s the heroin, which has the problem, not the addict.

America is and has been for the last 60 years that convenient source of blame for the world ills and shortcomings as if it was this humongous so omnipotent force that takes the free will of others from them and as such affect their life’s to such an extent that the people of the world are and have been impotently helpless as to ways of seeking other outcomes and alternatives. Utterly, as expressed, complete balderdash to the power of 100.

It is time for others to take responsibility for their own outcomes. If they choice the sword then the sword it will be. If they choice peace then peace it will be. America has choices as well. Choices that are in her best interest but which please some and dissatisfy others are not necessarily deeds of omnipotent imperialism as is so fashionable to retort.

America faults and mistakes are well known and are obsessively scrutinized, by herself, as much as everybody she cannot please and equally praised by those she does please. She cannot and should not be all things to all peoples.

For people outside the US to think Americans should not act in it’s own perceived best interests is the height of absurdity and foolishness. No other nation is held to or should be held to that standard.

What many here are saying about American policy is ageless rethreaded rhetoric that has been expressed by the unsatisfied and unpleased for centuries on end. As with all great nations of the past from America today to Pharaohs of Egypt each must seek and receive the realities of the Zen of consequences and as such must proceed towards the Karma of their destiny.

A people, A nation, or A religion, can proceed with its destiny in its own hands or in the hands of others. Don’t you agree there is and has always been that choice. It is the price not the choice that inhibits most to the require action you know.

Irregardless, of the dependency inspired pontifications of the fault finders and the timidity of the disinclined naysayer, There is alternative and choice for each that will seek internally rather than externally for self actuated achievement and accomplishment and accept the price that entails.

Truthfully if the heart of most Americans could be realistically translated into actuated policy, most, I surmise, would prefer isolation and disengagement in a fortress America.

A preference for Isolation and self-sufficiency would be the choice I think. A choice far removed from a world that many perceive as drowning in its own inhumanity, consumed in it’s own self interests and acting in unwilling blind isolation seeking to not to rectify, in ownership, of it’s own responsibilities as to the consequences of outcomes and event that befall it.

My two cents once more.

That is all.

[samran]

Thiadancer,

I think you mis-read the intentiion of my post. I actually agree with you.

My point with my last post was that there are those amongst us standing from afar have no real experience in Thailand (beyond eating Thai food) who are making nonsensical comments about the problems in Southern Thailand without any reference to historical context, and only using flimsy predjucies to make their case.

I actually agree with people like yourselves and USAtrader, who seem to have an actual clue about these things. Lets not let racial and religious bigotry (as I am sensing from IamMaiC) take over this board.

[phormio]

...

It is hard indeed to retort to such allegations expressed with such elegance and grace, but my learned comrade seem to have embellished the facts just a little.

First, beyond the Air America and standard Embassy CIA functionaries based in Thailand during Vietnam there was one additional small detachment present in Bangkok, Thailand, known as Detachment K of the U.S. Army's 500th Military Intelligence Group based in Hawaii. This detachment was disbanded in 1977.

Its is absolutely a joke to infer even in stupidity and flaming anti-Americanism that the US need interrogation center for Vietnamese in Thailand.

One, the US intelligence community had PICP (Province Interrogation Center programs) that later became PICCP (Province Intelligence Coordination Committee program) all over Vietnam.

Methinks you neglect the Air base up north at Udon Thani - where B-52 bombing runs ran. Regional Interrogation Center existed in Thailand, though I doubt is was dedicated solely to Vietnamese capturees. Every hear of Phoenix or CORDS. America war with Vietnamese Quislings- the South Vietnamese.

P.S.:

Your eloquence is quite unsurpassable.

Second, the South Vietnamese were most adaptive at the art of interrogation needing little help in that regard.

So why were US military/intelligence personnel assigned to PICs?

Third, my history deficient friend fails to consider the Thai’s also faced an expanding internal security problem from Thais trained in the People's Republic of China, their movement across Laos supported by a joint Pathet Lao/North Vietnamese Army special command. The aim of these Thai dissidents was to overthrow the government of the Kingdom of Thailand, or at least to make it appear that way. Reason one for Thai Interrogation centers setup with US help.

Likewise, the Thai’s had a Vietnamese refugee problem where known units of North Vietnamese intelligence personnel attempted to recruit and direct terror attacks on US and Thai facilities. As such Vietnamese were also interrogated at these Thai Interrogation centers.

As such, the US turned many into a cadre of double agents usefully blunting the Vietnamese effort to expand the war into Thailand.       

In terms of current events, Thailand, though originally involved in Iraq with a few hundred medical personal has subsequently decided its best interest were to withdrawal and has done so.

Again, in Thailand’s own best internal interest, like most countries in the world, including France, Germany Russia and China, they have continued to support the intelligence efforts against the likes of one of the world's sought after Terrorist, Hambali, who was Asia's most-wanted terrorist suspect. The Thai Government  did hand him over to the US authorities and he was breifly questioned at an undisclosed location in Thailand following his arrest in Ayutthaya. In as much,

Thailand received $10million USD for his capture.

I would say if you have a problem with that well....

We know the type that would have a problem with terrorist being arrested and interrogated don’t we?

No doubt that I have colossal ignorance of many things. For instance, I didn't know that Thailand had pulled out of Iraq already(really?). Kind of nasty to imply I'm supporting terrorist causes, though I'm a yank and served in the Military. Tad bit insulting, but I don't blame you, I was too. Problem with torturing people and interrogating them to death is that most of em are innocent.

Separation of the conflict is impossible at this point. It'll be SOME BIG business in Thailand, its just a question of how soon.

Watch out for any suspicious fuel trucks on Sukhumvit

Is that silliness supposed to frighten someone or as I surmise, prove to the rest of us your sympathies and desires?

That is finally all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks be to god you are done!

Could be a bit of paranoi on my part, since i'll be living in that vicinity of BKK in the near future, though if they know their business they'll go after public transport.

Don't fancy getting myself blown up; though I can't blame you for suggesting I would.

[JemJem]

*Yawn*

This senseless 'Muslim bashing' in this forum by the same group of people is not only shameful but now getting a bit boring.

Jem

[mouse]

Every hear of Phoenix

Yes heard of it. It was a program run by MACV Advisory Teams and funded and overall controlled by the CIA. It never operated in Thailand other than when we came here on R&R. Incidentally Pattaya was a village then with one small Hotel.

Just to add my two cents. Ever notice that all these Muslim and other problems in the world seem to stem from the division of lands and treaties by the British and the French.

[gburns57au]

Quote "Over the last 40 years in my travels, I have met many nationalities abroad and in their native countries that have at one time warmly welcomed me and expressed their personal gratitude and praise, not for something I did, but, rather about something my country had done for them and or their people at one time or another. " Unquote

In the countries I have visited over the last few years or so, including Communist and Muslim countries, I have been met with warmth and kindness....not because of where I was from but because of who I was and the way I acted. When you travel to another country, you do so as an ambassador of your country.

Wasnt it JFK who said...Think not of your country can do for you....Think of what you can do for your country.

I have met many people from other nations and some from my own who when they travel seem to think that they are superior to the people of the country they are visiting. These people are doing nothing for their countries.

[meom]

I doubt if in the present climate you stand a big chance of winning because the western world seems more united than the muslims who are often bitching amongst themselves.

Excuse me but what has 'the western world' to do with a conflict in Southern Thailand?

Besides, the US failed to coerce the western world into being 'united'.

My response was initially direct at Thaidancer's post who made the link to "muslims being screwed by the west"

In itself the conflict so far has not much to do with the west although some hawks might fear that independency for (radical) Muslims in Southern Thailand could spill over into Malaysia/Singapore and they would not want radicals to control the Malacan Straits.

Regarding the US I agree that they might have failed to coerce the western world into being "united". That doesn't mean all non-coerced "christians" automatically feel a lot of love for their muslim brothers. If it would come to a religious crusade instead of a business crusade I think the christians stand more united than the muslims.

[usatrader]

Methinks you neglect the Air base up north at Udon Thani - where B-52 bombing runs ran. Regional Interrogation Center existed in Thailand, though I doubt is was dedicated solely to Vietnamese capturees. Every hear of Phoenix or CORDS. America war with Vietnamese Quislings- the South Vietnamese.

P.S.:

Your eloquence is quite unsurpassable

Yes, I am very familiar with the imbed inside MACV’s CORDS as well as Detachment B-57 and their relationship to the Phoenix Program (Phung Hoang) as it was know.

Every SOG group, Lerp and Seal team in country knew of this counter-intelligence effort. You might say it was one of a long line of and or forerunners of “with prejudice” counter-persuader programs which today might be called anti-terror programs.

You’re a soldier, you know what soldiers fight for. War is not clean, its not nice and it is for sure not spit and polish soldiering.

Your point is what?

That the program was used as a counter-intelligence assassination program which killed people who were trying either directly or indirectly to kill us.

It’s one thing to be philosophical and cerebral situated in a non-life threaten environ, which I have no problem with at all. It is however quite another to hypothetic morality and what is right or wrong when its your arse which faces never more, forever more.

If one is incline to a preference on the moral issue of war and peace it is after all their life and their choice and their morality.

However, as I have resolutely pointed on numerous occasion in these forums, as it, your making a war/peace choice, is but a mere human preferential choice, not an annotating as a deity .

As such that choice does not grant divine righteousness and omnipotence wisdom so as ordain the opinionated selector the godly right to sit in Judgment of those of different opinion and or selective choice.

I am not speaking of you personally just us humans with free choice and opinion in general.

Anyhow, I am familiar with Udon-Thani, in addition to B52’s there were Black spot recon aircraft, there were F4’s, there Army SOG’s , there were intel-units and even a few Marines not to mention some old EC-47 ducks there at one time or another as I recall?

They dropped a lot of bombs from there and a lot of people died. Some good a whole lot not so good and even bad.

If we who where there are to be judged as to whether others should have died so that we might survive then, then that’s our judgment to bear, but no one, I repeat no one reading these words are divine or omnipotent enough to make that judgment of us particular if they themselves have not walked in the valley of death and never more.

That’s all I have to say about that.

So why were US military/intelligence personnel assigned to PICs?

?? To gather intel ???

No doubt that I have colossal ignorance of many things. For instance, I didn't know that Thailand had pulled out of Iraq already(really?). Kind of nasty to imply I'm supporting terrorist causes, though I'm a yank and served in the Military. Tad bit insulting, but I don't blame you, I was too. Problem with torturing people and interrogating them to death is that most of em are innocent.

I would say it was not my intent to insult you, I would not be so pretensions as to presume any more righteousness in my opinion that in yours, I was intending to point out your statements implied sympathy but I was not judging your right to be so.

As to bad things happening in war. I accept reality that in all people there are bad and good. Some which to obesses over the bad things that happen in war some wish to ignore and or justify them. Beyond that I will let my judgment commentary addressing the judgment of guilt and innocent you and anyone else makes here.

I agree a bite long winded I be.

As for me, when in LOS, I avoid Fahrang mainly because my venues are not where they cluster, I sue taxi or car, eat in local mainly native restaurants and have my extended family shop as Thailand is not very wheel chair friendly.

qburn57au

Not sure what your point is but I couldn’t agree more as to you last paragraph.

That is all!

[gburns57au]

qburn57au

Not sure what your point is but I couldn’t agree more as to you last paragraph.

That is all!

My point was, albiet very cryptically........

ATTITUDE

You have people who travel overseas saying how superior they are to others...people get ticked off.

When you have a government saying the same thing.....Nations get ticked off.

The USof A is perceived as trying to be the worlds Police Force by many nations and not just nations of differing religions. It is the attitude of the US government that has caused this perception.

I remember Bush as saying after 9/11 that they would find and punish the perpertrators of this horrific act. Then it became the War on Terror and 2 countries have been invaded. Yet the perpertrator of the act is still at large !!!

Iraq was invaded on false premise, this is now on record. Was Dubbya just trying to finish what dad had started ??? Osama had used Afghanastan as a base and was supported by the regime there, did that necessitate the invasion of the whole country ???

Only certain areas of Africa were dealt with while others are still under dictatorships and embroiled in civil war....where is the help for them??? Are US interests in danger in those other places...I think not or the US would have dealt with it.

The US seems to have a "We Will Fix it Attitude" but what have they fixed...and what have they fuxed... There are 2 countries now in worse shape since the US went in to fix it.

Is the US still trying to restore the lost face of Korea and Vietnam ???

I surely do get cheesed off when I see chest beating Americans telling everyone how great the US is....Many nations think that the US is trying to impose its values on others, Why do they think this ????

Because that is the message that the US is putting out.

In God we trust.....or God is Great.....not a lot of difference there.

As I said................ATTITUDE

[phormio]

...It’s one thing to be philosophical and cerebral situated in a non-life threaten environ, which I have no problem with at all. It is however quite another to hypothetic morality and what is right or wrong when its your arse which faces never more, forever more.

If one is incline to a preference on the moral issue of war and peace it is after all their life and their choice and their morality.

However, as I have resolutely pointed on numerous occasion in these forums, as it, your making a war/peace choice, is but a mere human preferential choice, not an annotating as a deity .

That is all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just the point of it though. Vietnam was a war brought about by ruling classes in the US out of paranoia(China had recently gone commie), fear-mongering for political advantage, and mass deception. Millions of people died throughout Southeast asia based on a bunch of freaking lies and mass political deceptions perpetrated on the American People(by their fellow Americans). People of both major parties participated in the deceptions to gain/maintain political advantage. Fear-mongering for political advantage is as old as politics.

As they say,

Fool me once...

It pisses me off no end when the Idiots Upstairs start a war with half the human race(only a slight exaggeration) putting me and my family in danger; by attacking IRAQ without JUST CAUSE, the IUs have screwed up on multiple levels through their arrogance and indifference; there's a reason the guy called the book "Imperial Hubris". They are limiting my freedom and forcing me to consider issues that I should not have to consider(particularly in Thailand with a large moslem population).

Screw the IU bastards.

Same old story - lieing and fear mongering for political advantage - and accelerating the decline of America to boot. The ruling elites really couldn't give a rats ass. See u in Siam.

[usatrader]

My point was, albeit very cryptically........

ATTITUDE

You have people who travel overseas saying how superior they are to others...people get ticked off.

When you have a government saying the same thing.....Nations get ticked off.

The USof A is perceived as trying to be the worlds Police Force by many nations and not just nations of differing religions. It is the attitude of the US government that has caused this perception.

I remember Bush as saying after 9/11 that they would find and punish the perpertrators of this horrific act. Then it became the War on Terror and 2 countries have been invaded. Yet the perpertrator of the act is still at large !!!

Iraq was invaded on false premise, this is now on record. Was Dubbya just trying to finish what dad had started ??? Osama had used Afghanastan as a base and was supported by the regime there, did that necessitate the invasion of the whole country ???

Only certain areas of Africa were dealt with while others are still under dictatorships and embroiled in civil war....where is the help for them??? Are US interests in danger in those other places...I think not or the US would have dealt with it.

The US seems to have a "We Will Fix it Attitude" but what have they fixed...and what have they fuxed... There are 2 countries now in worse shape since the US went in to fix it.

Is the US still trying to restore the lost face of Korea and Vietnam ???

I surely do get cheesed off when I see chest beating Americans telling everyone how great the US is....Many nations think that the US is trying to impose its values on others, Why do they think this ????

Because that is the message that the US is putting out.

In God we trust.....or God is Great.....not a lot of difference there.

As I said................ATTITUDE

Qburn57au,

I do understand. You have a problem with Americans and America. You obviously have met yanks you have had issues with. As such, as it has given you this self-professed “attitude”, it would seem prudent to avoid them as much as possible.

As to your view on the world’s perceptions of the USA, et. Al, “ticked off people and nations” well, as you stated, it is your opinionated perception of other’s perception. A point some share others do not.

Likewise, as the definition of perception tells us it is a representation of a quick, acute, and intuitive cognition, an opinionated thought that can equally, on the one hand, be a reality, or the other hand, either, be a fantasy and or a simple proliferation, abet, a recital of talking points recycled or in original thought, as to positions of opposition as your seem to be.

As such, these thoughts can equally have a basis founded in perceptions of threat, fear, envy, jealousness and a mired of both sincere and disingenuous motives and agenda.

They have appeared over the years as if mirage reflections, on the shifting sands of self-interests and motives that, as in Paris fashion, ebb and flow in the positive as well as negative connation, dependent on whether the US is considered by the preceptor, as, in some way acting against their desires and self-interests as they vacillate between the affirmative and negative view in the changing perceptions over the time.

You are obvious one who opposes the US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Your opposition does not make you right any more than the US being in those places makes them right. It however does makes you right for you.

In the end, the righteousness of these events will be determined by the outcomes and the consequences that entail once they are concluded. Not by the likes of you or me.

As there is Ying for every Yang in the real world, there are Americans that agree with you and those that don’t.

Likewise, you may have many countrymen that share opposite points of views as to Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam.

As with most things, few perceptions and opinions are clear and obvious in black and white veracity.

I can only say that your argument against US engagement in the world like in the places you mentioned in the Middle East, Asia and Africa is one which advocates disengagement as opposed to engagement by the USA.

It is an easily defendable position. It is an advocacy of the critique from the safe confines of inaction conveniently void of alternative and as such void of consequence and responsibility.

To tell others to not do what you can not or will not, is most effortless inconsequential of positions. It is not a position of righteous pity and divine wisdom but rather the inverse by the disenfranchised and disconnected.

Lastly, you seem to point confusingly to the difference be between the self serving concept of superiority and that of “superiority complex”. Which is a thoughtful exaggerated opinion of one’s self that implies all else as being inferior.

As opposed to real american indenity of self-confidence which is a believe in oneself and one’s powers and abilities.

As in your commentary the USA has a "We Will Fix it Attitude", I agree that Americans as a part of their national identity and vision do have that self-confident belief that all things are possible, unless, like those who stand afar in uninvolved and inconsequential indifference, one does not attempt or give an effort in that regard.

That is all!

PS

Phormorio.

That's just the point of it though. Vietnam was a war brought about by ruling classes in the US out of paranoia(China had recently gone commie),

555, did you get that out of Chairman Mao’s “little red book”. It’s there you know?

deceptions to gain/maintain political advantage

Same old story - lieing and fear mongering for political advantage - and accelerating the decline of America to boot. The ruling elites really couldn't give a rats ass. See u in Siam.

Of this we can agree. Little people like you and me no matter your country or mine have little do but bare the burden of consequences of those that lead and have dominion over us.

I can not judge the rightness or wrongness of Vietnam anymore than I can Iraq or the next place that someone starts killing people to prove a point, gain position or domination over another. That judgment is for a higher power to make.

Your and my role is to survive their consequence placed on us.

These things you say of America and Americans have been said of many countries and people even probably your own over the ages.

Blood begets blood, war and man have been, up until now, like the relationship between the sea and the shore, sometimes it laps against it peacefully and benign and at other times it is a raging tempest of destruction and shifting changes. All controled by events distant from these two things.

You and I are the grains of sand in this larger domain. I love my country and put my life on the line for it. I accept the consequences of my actions in that effort. You may have or will for yours someday. It is about choice which we debate.

See you in Siam.

That is all!

[gburns57au]

Qburn57au,

I do understand. You have a problem with Americans and America. You obviously have met yanks you have had issues with. As such, as it has given you this self-professed “attitude”, it would seem prudent to avoid them as much as possible.

I only have a problem with the chest beating Americans that will not accept the US as being anything but the greatest. To me these people are as fanatical as some of the people that they are putting down for the same reasons. I am all for patriotism, I am not for fanaticism. I have quite a few American friends that are tolerant and decent people.

I would have supported the efforts in Iraq more if the WMD had of been found. But since it has been revealed that the WMD were just a cover for other agendas....???? By the way my best mate is working there now with the US forces, until recently in Fallujah.

In Afghanastan they got rid of that regime and then pulled nearly all their forces out, the job was left unfinished. The leaders of that regime are still at liberty as is Osama, who they were after in the first place.

I would not condone disengagement in these places....The job has been started so it must be finished...By all means stay and ensure that the infrastructure is put right. As long as it is done right and in the end the people are free to make their own choices.

I dont need to write a novel full of long words and rhetoric to put a point across, I just call it the way I see it from what I have read, seen and heard. I dont see the need to try and confuse issues with long winded replies...after all this is just another way of saying ..."I am better than you cos I know a lot of big words"

I dont like fanatics or extremists from anywhere, whether that is USA, England, Australia or the Middle East. Whether they are fanatics about their countries, religion or beliefs.

That is all

[Sangsom]

This dicussion is about possbile problems in Bangkok. But I read today in CNN and the BCC (and several other news sites) this:

A Buddhist village leader in southern Thailand has been beheaded in revenge for the deaths last week of 85 Muslims.

Local people found the head of the 58-year-old deputy village leader on a roadside in Narathiwat province.

OK not Bangkok but firghtening for sure. I also wander why this "news" is not to be found on either The Nation or The Bangkok Post . . .

[JemJem]

This recent beheading is also grim news indeed !

Let's hope this recent cycle of violence turns out to be a short-lasting one.

We in this forum all have our political/philosophical views on things but I think we all have a liking for Thailand. Regardless of our views, we should hope for this cycle of violence to end and hope that no innocent person (Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, agnostic or whatever) is killed or injured.

But I guess for the non-humanist, right-wingers here, like Nam Kao and IamMaiC, what I wrote above is something to be ridiculed.

Sad !

Jem

[Nam Kao]

Jem maybe a good ole Liberal group hug will make these meanies stop

Why dont you head down there and "work things out with these guys"

Just dont lose your head

[Dickie]

Can't fault the muslims for beheading the Buddhist. As their religious book says: "Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him". The Buddhists don't follow the religion of mohammed so, therefore, muslims should kill them.

The only solution to militants is to kill them.

[stroll]

The only solution to militants is to kill them.

No, not just 'militants', all Muslims, as you already so eloquently implied. Some haven't shown their true face yet, but it is only a matter of weeks now before they'll show up at your place, and rape your wife and daughter before they kill you. This latest event is undisputable proof of it.

They eat babies as well.

[thaidancer]

Can't fault the muslims for beheading the Buddhist. As their religious book says: "Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him". The Buddhists don't follow the religion of mohammed so, therefore, muslims should kill them.

The only solution to militants is to kill them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are a very ignorant individual, You know nothing about Islam and the Unbeliever/infidel you are talking about is a person who attacks Muslims or is apart of a government who oppresses and kills innocent Muslims. I can't believe the ignorance on this web site it was Muslims who were the victims over 80 of them died! Remember that after WW2 the Brits promised the Muslims in the south that they can have their own homeland for helping the Brits fight and beat the Japanese but the Brits went back on their promise and not only that OVER 80 INNOCENT MUSLIMS DIED JUST RECENTLY!!! I keep giving you guys facts about how the western world has been screwing us since WW2 but it seems to fall on deaf and dumb ears!

[stroll]

One gradually comes to the same conclusion as the militants. One just cannot argue with these fanatics, who refuse to acknowledge even the most basic facts which have relentlessly been pointed out to them. They are blinded by hate and ignorance.

[thaidancer]

Take the incindent of innocent muslims dieng just recently in southern Thailand and having a promised homeland taken away from them, and apply it to Chechnya, Isreal, Kashmire, Europe and the middle East.

[Dickie]

Can't fault the muslims for beheading the Buddhist. As their religious book says: "Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him". The Buddhists don't follow the religion of mohammed so, therefore, muslims should kill them.

The only solution to militants is to kill them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are a very ignorant individual, You know nothing about Islam and the Unbeliever/infidel you are talking about is a person who attacks Muslims or is apart of a government who oppresses and kills innocent Muslims. I can't believe the ignorance on this web site it was Muslims who were the victims over 80 of them died! Remember that after WW2 the Brits promised the Muslims in the south that they can have their own homeland for helping the Brits fight and beat the Japanese but the Brits went back on their promise and not only that OVER 80 INNOCENT MUSLIMS DIED JUST RECENTLY!!! I keep giving you guys facts about how the western world has been screwing us since WW2 but it seems to fall on deaf and dumb ears!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Kill unbelievers' from the Quran is just part of a very good explanation of how Islam degenerated from enlightenment into violence. I'm ignorant? Nope, I just read, digest and, if it sounds valid, accept.

80 muslims died? 2,600 people died in 2001 in one hit but, as the vast majority weren't muslims, that's alright then.