Gay Farang Men Couple Building Together

[bledu]

Most of the posts I found on ThaiVisa refer to farang men married with or in relation with Thai women.

Our story is a bit different.

We are two gays farang men (link in Europe by a so called marriage contract).

One of us has a retirement visa. The other, only 50 next December, will get it next January.

I' m also owner (in my only one name) of a small condo in the center of Chiang Mai since four years now.

We got and registered last year an usufruct on a 5 rai land near Chiang Mai. The usufruct is in our two names and it is written (in thai language) on the chanote deed that is is an « usufruct for life until the last of the two dies ».

So the land problem is, I think, largely solved.

Now we plan to build our new home on the land.

We will have all documents with the engineer and the builder signed in our two names.

Each paiement will be done from a shared Thai bank account in out two names.

• First question  : can we have the building permit delivered in our two names too  ? If not, ideas to manage the situation ?

• Second point  : it is not clear if we need to have a yellow book before building  (and how, as there is no address yet on this land which is empty and a bit on the frontier of the small village) ? If a yellow book is needed, may I have one for my condo on which me and my friend will be registered  and will it be used for the house procedure ?

Thank a lot for your good ideas.

[pkrv]

Most of the posts I found on ThaiVisa refer to farang men married with or in relation with Thai women.

Our story is a bit different.

We are two gays farang men (link in Europe by a so called marriage contract).

One of us has a retirement visa. The other, only 50 next December, will get it next January.

I' m also owner (in my only one name) of a small condo in the center of Chiang Mai since four years now.

We got and registered last year an usufruct on a 5 rai land near Chiang Mai. The usufruct is in our two names and it is written (in thai language) on the chanote deed that is is an « usufruct for life until the last of the two dies ».

So the land problem is, I think, largely solved.

Now we plan to build our new home on the land.

We will have all documents with the engineer and the builder signed in our two names.

Each paiement will be done from a shared Thai bank account in out two names.

• First question : can we have the building permit delivered in our two names too ? If not, ideas to manage the situation ?

• Second point : it is not clear if we need to have a yellow book before building (and how, as there is no address yet on this land which is empty and a bit on the frontier of the small village) ? If a yellow book is needed, may I have one for my condo on which me and my friend will be registered and will it be used for the house procedure ?

Thank a lot for your good ideas.

I can only comment on the condominium issue - I would recommend you (re-)register the condominium in joint names, it could 'help' in the future on all sorts of levels. But you get a blue book for the condominium (if its freehold), I'm not sure what the yellow book is for a condominium. We have registered our Condo (and Bank accounts etc) in Joint names just to be on the safe side. I think this is a prudent move for any Ferang/Ferang purchase or activity in Thailand.

Edited June 17, 2008 by pkrv

[bledu]

Thanks for your advice. When I bought the condo, we had a share account in out thai bank but has the receipt of the money transfert from France was in my only one name, the Land Office refuse to register the buying with also my friend's name. That's why I'm officially the only owner of the condo. I did not know we could make any change to that situation now. And no, I have not any blue or yellow book for this condominium yet.

Things are strange sometime. I live in Thailand about height months a year (in two to three parts as I come: back in France for family and other activities) and I usually come to Thailand on double entry tourist visas (until I will be 50 at the end of this year) but I could bought and registered a motorbike I bought last november. I get all the officilal documents from the transport authority of Chiang Mai and the official number to put at the back of the motorbike. I thought it was not possible. But I got it.

So I will see if I can get some color book for the condo.

Thanks again.

[pkrv]

Thanks for your advice. When I bought the condo, we had a share account in out thai bank but has the receipt of the money transfert from France was in my only one name, the Land Office refuse to register the buying with also my friend's name. That's why I'm officially the only owner of the condo. I did not know we could make any change to that situation now. And no, I have not any blue or yellow book for this condominium yet.

Things are strange sometime. I live in Thailand about height months a year (in two to three parts as I come: back in France for family and other activities) and I usually come to Thailand on double entry tourist visas (until I will be 50 at the end of this year) but I could bought and registered a motorbike I bought last november. I get all the officilal documents from the transport authority of Chiang Mai and the official number to put at the back of the motorbike. I thought it was not possible. But I got it.

So I will see if I can get some color book for the condo.

Thanks again.

Sorry I am not entirely sure where you are in the Condominium registration process - you may find you have to shift the money back out and back in again to achieve a re-registration. As I say any Ferang/Ferang I believe should have joint names on all transfer forms. It is how we went about it really from a belt and braces type of approach.

It should be possible to argue the money came from a joint account - but things can be taken quite literally here. BTW we also transferred from a joint account from the UK simply to ensure a continuity of records. I know other western couples are adopting the same approach.

[bledu]

Well, I bought this condo four year ago. So the registration process is over for a long time now and I think the best is to change nothing, keep the condo in my own name and have "universal wills" here in Thailand (if this type of will exist herre too), to be sure that in case i die, my friend will inherit of the condo. Anyway, thanks you very much. Best regards.

[pkrv]

Well, I bought this condo four year ago. So the registration process is over for a long time now and I think the best is to change nothing, keep the condo in my own name and have "universal wills" here in Thailand (if this type of will exist herre too), to be sure that in case i die, my friend will inherit of the condo. Anyway, thanks you very much. Best regards.

Sorry I note you are not getting much help here. You SHOULD have a blue book that registers your condominium if not there is something wrong! I am not sure if anyone else can assist?

Wills are discussed on the finance forum. Yes they enforced but get them translated to Thai and notorised by your (French?) embassy. That should be enough from what I have seen. Thailand has strict laws, the English expression is 'do it by the book'.

Again IMO ANY Ferang/Ferang relationship embarking in Thailand should do the same.

[hughden]

My experience is that the blue book is not automatically issued. You get an official document when you buy your condo; then you take that down to city hall to get the blue book. I only did this seven years after I had bought the condo! So, there is nothing wrong, just a process to go through that took me no more than 20 minutes. Good luck.

[bledu]

Thank you again for those advices.

OK, I will see with some of our Thai friends where to go in Chiang Mai to ask for a Blue Book (should be at the same place as for Thai people).

I'm still looking for any help regarding my first question :

can we have the building permit delivered in our two names too ? If not, ideas to manage the situation ?

The architect what will sign the plans and do everything for the permit is not very confident in the possibility to have two farang names on the building permit and other documentation.

[ProThaiExpat]

The need to have the building permit in both your names seems a bit excessive, unless one of you is in bad health and he is the one on the building permit.

The usurfuct is in both of your names, so the life estate is for both of your lives, that is the critical issue. The ownership of the house, once built, is the next issue, it seems to me, not who takes out the building permit. Those of us who bought houses from developers, it was the developers name that was on the building permit, once the house is built, it is sold to its new owner. If both of you contract to build the house and both pay for it, you both would own it. I am not at all that sure that houses are ever recorded as such, a sales contract for the house is usually the way developments are sold, land office doesn't seem concerned if a house is on the land that is recorded or not. One of the way to avoid taxes on the property is to not get into whether a house is built on the land or not, when title to the land is recorded.

[Carib]

A building permit is a permit to build. No more, no less.

Even if you sell everything, the permit stays, as a proof that it was allowed to build, and that the structure was given a legal/aproved status.

That permit will go to the next owner if you sell the place. So it doesnot really mean anything as far as " owning " something IMHO.

[bledu]

OK, I start to understand a bit more.

If I understand correct, the company we chose and which will build the house for us, on "our" land (as we are the managers of the land as it it written in the thai law at the usufruct chapter), this company will have ITS NAME on the building permit, no mention of our names at all.

Then, we will sign a selling contract between this building company (seller) and both of us (buyers). Is it correct ? Seems clear to me – even if it is a bit strange.

Thanks a lot

[ProThaiExpat]

bledu: Trying to get what you think is "strange" about an almost worldwide normal legal procedure. Perhaps you haven't distinguished in your mind the major difference between an interest in land and ownership of other forms of property.

Your interest in the land in question is a life estate, the measuring life of your estate is the lives of you and your partner. A life estate is similar to a lease of land except leases must have a fixed term stated in the lease, while your "life estate" is indeterminable, only measured by how long you live.

What is built on the land, house, shed or whatever is "personal property", not governed by laws governing ownership of land. Personal property law allows for the purchase and sale of goods, including houses, in the same way is purchase and sale of cars, boats and whatever.

Since the house is a sum of its parts when completed and the parts were bought by the builder, ownership of the house rests with him until he sells it to you in the purchase and sale contract for the house. Yes, periodic payments during construction, have some significance, however, you don't want title to transfer to you until the house is done and you have "accepted it", hopefully retaining at least 10% of the purchase price, to be payed after satisfactory completion. The more money you can retain until satisfactory completion the better. Most certainly have a significant penalty provision for late completion.

[bledu]

Sorry for misunderstanding.

What was "strange" for me is the fact that, in France, the build permit is not issued to the company which manage the building of the house but in the name of the people (or organisation) who give the order to build to the company.

In some cases the company which manage the development is the same which builds but most the time it is not. And never when it is an individual (like me and my friends) who orders the building.