Thai-western Round Table On Thai Root Culture

[dinog]

I Invite Thais and western people to meet here to talk about the Thai culture. I think that the respect of any opinion is requested and none have to be offended. I think too that many Farangs live with Thai spouse from years but maybe they some time have doub about the real meaning of some Thai custom. Let me say before that i love Thai country and Thai people and am about to come back im Thailand to stay.

Here are some topic we can discute:

1 Thai and Western Love love, sex , family

2 Money priority

3 Hygiene and medicine concept

4 Where is the story of Thai culture? ( ancient mathematics, physics, philosophy, etc )

I hope someone will welcome my invite and want analyze together this topics

Best Regards

ob1kenobi

[Nampeung]

What a lovely idea dinog. don't be sad if some people are not polite - that always happens!! I think it's a great idea. I am particularly interested in discussion of ancient Thai history/beliefs/culture etc

[boiledegg]

The only types that would turn up to this are middle class Thais and Farangs who debate very much but have never actually lived the life of poor Thai people who are the majority, so they actually know very little, seeing it and living it are 2 very different things.

You mention someone that has lived with a partner for several years may know little, he will have a basic understading of his partner and her families ideas and way of life which is enough to get by.

But if you wish to get a view on middle class Thai culture i suppose its of some use.

The Upper and Working classes in the UK both despise the middle class sterile way of life/culture as ours is far far superior, is the same view held in LOS?

Edited June 29, 2008 by boiledegg

[Briggsy]

I Invite Thais and western people to meet here to talk about the Thai culture. I think that the respect of any opinion is requested and none have to be offended. I think too that many Farangs live with Thai spouse from years but maybe they some time have doub about the real meaning of some Thai custom. Let me say before that i love Thai country and Thai people and am about to come back im Thailand to stay.

Here are some topic we can discute:

1 Thai and Western Love love, sex , family No sex before marriage; there is no prostitution in Thailand

2 Money priority ????????????? Money is very much a priority??

3 Hygiene and medicine concept Washing is very important, Thais are clean; farangs are smelly; khaeks are very smelly. Everything can be cured with a pill.

4 Where is the story of Thai culture? ( ancient mathematics, physics, philosophy, etc ) Ancient Mathematics, are you sure?

I hope someone will welcome my invite and want analyze together this topics

Best Regards

ob1kenobi

This sounds like a recipe for disaster. I hope my gentle ribbing has demonstrated to you the direction this may well take.

[Scott]

We'll have to see where this thread goes and it could be interesting. Most cultures have their 'roots' buried deep enough in the past that people don't know why things are the way they are. They are handed down from generation to generation and get mixed with other cultural concepts--they get diluted, transposed, die and then revived. One thing is for certain, they are not logical and they don't make sense.

If you look at Western Culture, just look at Christmas. It's such a mix of different concepts from all kinds of places, religious, secular and different ethnic groups and don't even get me started on the Easter Bunny and his colored eggs!

But best of luck to all who participate.

[dinog]

We'll have to see where this thread goes and it could be interesting. Most cultures have their 'roots' buried deep enough in the past that people don't know why things are the way they are. They are handed down from generation to generation and get mixed with other cultural concepts--they get diluted, transposed, die and then revived. One thing is for certain, they are not logical and they don't make sense.

If you look at Western Culture, just look at Christmas. It's such a mix of different concepts from all kinds of places, religious, secular and different ethnic groups and don't even get me started on the Easter Bunny and his colored eggs!

But best of luck to all who participate.

I hope some Thai people can participate soon to listen what they have to say from Thai side.

1 - Talking about love, sex and money concern let me begin to say that prostitution is everywhere in the world, but beyond that seem that Thai lady have special feeling for money. Maybe that come from the remote past where the Thai woman had few or no right and the must to feed and grow the kids. Maybe someone can have better explain better about-

2 - Some time i ask myself if Thai woman have the capability to have feeling and love ( i am sure yes). How is the love between the family ?

3 - I hate split the world in Thai and Farang. The Farang is a Thai imagination race. In real beyond Farang are Greech , English , Italian, Australian and so on all different with different feeling

4 - I found that western people often are not kind with Thais. Farang love to say that if a Farang not understand a Thai that mean the Thai is not so smart. I think viceversa that if a Farang not understand a Thai maybe he not do enough to be understood and to understood them.

5 - Thais maybe have a different ( not lower or higher but simply different ) way to think. In the work they prefer to think that the salary is the price they devote to stay at work. Farang tend to think salary is the price for the objective they reach.

6 - Thais not like to let Farang know too much about the Thai culture. The Thais think the Farangs corrupt the Thai culture.

7 - The last : I have found some information that the story of ancient Thai culture ( mathematic, philosophy, and so on ) was wrote in ancient Thai language that at now only few people can read. This ancient culture was talking also about a charming love way

I hope all that let we all Thais and Western to live better together

best regards

ob1kenobi

[zzdocxx]

We'll have to see where this thread goes and it could be interesting. Most cultures have their 'roots' buried deep enough in the past that people don't know why things are the way they are. They are handed down from generation to generation and get mixed with other cultural concepts--they get diluted, transposed, die and then revived. One thing is for certain, they are not logical and they don't make sense.

If you look at Western Culture, just look at Christmas. It's such a mix of different concepts from all kinds of places, religious, secular and different ethnic groups and don't even get me started on the Easter Bunny and his colored eggs!

But best of luck to all who participate.

I hope some Thai people can participate soon to listen what they have to say from Thai side.

1 - Talking about love, sex and money concern let me begin to say that prostitution is everywhere in the world, but beyond that seem that Thai lady have special feeling for money. Maybe that come from the remote past where the Thai woman had few or no right and the must to feed and grow the kids. Maybe someone can have better explain better about-

2 - Some time i ask myself if Thai woman have the capability to have feeling and love ( i am sure yes). How is the love between the family ?

3 - I hate split the world in Thai and Farang. The Farang is a Thai imagination race. In real beyond Farang are Greech , English , Italian, Australian and so on all different with different feeling

4 - I found that western people often are not kind with Thais. Farang love to say that if a Farang not understand a Thai that mean the Thai is not so smart. I think viceversa that if a Farang not understand a Thai maybe he not do enough to be understood and to understood them.

5 - Thais maybe have a different ( not lower or higher but simply different ) way to think. In the work they prefer to think that the salary is the price they devote to stay at work. Farang tend to think salary is the price for the objective they reach.

6 - Thais not like to let Farang know too much about the Thai culture. The Thais think the Farangs corrupt the Thai culture.

7 - The last : I have found some information that the story of ancient Thai culture ( mathematic, philosophy, and so on ) was wrote in ancient Thai language that at now only few people can read. This ancient culture was talking also about a charming love way

I hope all that let we all Thais and Western to live better together

best regards

ob1kenobi

I've been hesitating to post this since I saw it on a documentary several months ago, it was a fleeting comment from some lady scholar/academician. The "History International Channel" program was about the 15th century Chinese explorer, Zheng He.

The comment was something to the effect that when the Chinese explorer, and subsequently traders, came to Thailand, that the women were in charge of the businesses. Also, that it was a point of pride for the husbands if their business-owning wives had a Chinese lover, even more so if she had a half-Chinese child.

I didn't find any source documentation of this and I wondered if it wasn't some kind of 15th century Chinese propaganda. Also, if factual, whether it related to any current practices.

That one has puzzled me for a while.

[a2396]

Leave this to University academics, who would presumabably be qualified to discuss this, not to a bunch of sidewalk experts on Thai culture that one finds on this forum.

[teacup]

1 Thai and Western Love love, sex , family

2 Money priority

3 Hygiene and medicine concept

4 Where is the story of Thai culture? ( ancient mathematics, physics, philosophy, etc )

I hope someone will welcome my invite and want analyze together this topics

ob1kenobi

Ok I will only chime in 1&2.

There are so many angles you can approach these issues. So I will look into from one of the angles.

Love

My thai friends and some american friends see me being devoted to my husband as romantic. Most of my white friends, see me being too submissive. In Thailand if you love someone, you’re more than likely willing to put that person before yourself. That is being unselfish, not 'submissive.'

Sex

Plutonic relationship is highly advisable before marriage. It is not so much about the virginity issue but it’s about self restraint and time to get to know each other and the families much better. Sex before marriage tends to complicate the relationship more in the not so good ways, and is generally being frowned upon ( if you get caught).

Family

In a marriage, they demand little from each other as long as it is for the good of the family and harmony is preserved. Selfish behavior is looked poorly upon in thai families generally.

Money

A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man.

It’s very hard to separate Love and Money in Thailand. In Thailand money is power and it opens doors to many opportunities. People without money don't stand much of a chance here. If you’re born poor , generally the only chance to improve life is either finding a rich husband or winning a lottery. Which one do you think is easier to achieve?

TC

Edited July 1, 2008 by teacup

[Kilgore Trout]

I hate split the world in Thai and Farang. The Farang is a Thai imagination race. In real beyond Farang are Greech , English , Italian, Australian and so on all different with different feeling

Then don't! Just stop using that word. After being here for nearly a decade that word just becomes more offensive day after day. In the beginning I thought it was cute, now I just find it disgusting.

We have a word in American English; very offensive; not sure of its origins but seemed to be prevelant in the vietnam war. The word is "gook." I think it means anyone from south east asia so you could say that Thai people, Burmese, vietnamese, Cambodian etc. could be called that.

I for one see the differences between the cultures of say, Thailand, Lao and Burma but for most Thai people's information most westerners do not. Thats right; most people think you are the same as a Burmese. Want to foster some understanding and not offend each other? I don't call you a gook so don't call me a farang. In my opinion ANYONE who uses this word seriously is a racist pure and simple. It is the same as Nigg@r in my view; if not please explain to me how so.

[dinog]

Hi all, let me say first i know not so many people never will read this my words, but is a way to reflect and understand for me too.

I read here in the forum a little more around this topic and i sawe many tread opened ( about the Thai woman the more) , many words written around but let me say that after i have read so many messages the problem is not so much clear then before for me.

I think Thai woman, sex, love, marriage are a part of the Thai culture but is not the all.

Can some Thai people please write here to clarify a little their think?

We all use words as computer, email, marketing, wife and so on but have the same meaning for a American from NY, a UK from London or a Thai ? How fast the Thai culture changed in the last 100 year? how is balanced between BKK and the deep province ?

When a country is evolving from a deep farming culture to a industrial culture of today that make a broken point of the culture ?

What is easy to see is that at now the Thai country want to be up to date about the technology, the economy, the industry but what about the sociology , the law system, the literature, the story ?

In few words : OK Thailand is the land of smile all seem to be very friendly and the lady are very pretty and kind. But all the Western lived in Thailand know how all that can became fake in range of few days. Husband can discover the the Thai wife can became very angry and aggressive, employers can see employees leave the job suddenly and and no have no sense about the damage can doing to the company no matter they was looking so happy and smiling for so many time. And if a day you western will become poor you will prove how is easy Thai change his feeling from treat you as a VIP to make you feeling the last of the beggars. And i think all of us can see some time western people to be real beggars around some MRT station. And what about so many Western businessman cheated from Thai partner ?

Well now you can ask me now if i think in this way why i am come back to Thailand again after about 2 years.

The answer is : simply i think all that cannot be true.

I think any culture have a way to feeling : friendship, true love, trust and so on. I think is matter to study and understand. Maybe can be difficult very difficult but i thin is very important to understand each others. Maybe the world could be very better with a better understanding.

Now 2 words about the Thai girls that can give you love for few money in BKK. Please be kind with them. Yes i wrote love not sex as many of them really can give you the feeling to be in touch with a real girl with all his life, feeling body and soul. I think men paying for sex are very poor men and are following a no place way. But if you touch the hand of this girls staying with you some time you can feel rough skin on their hands as they have worked hard maybe in the farm or some seven eleven serving you the full day. One day i saw a girl to pray before to have a meeting. I asked why. She said was to ask to God to not see what she will do. OK is not always so, the bad can be really bad i know

Ob1kenobi

[qwertz]

Thailand would be doomed without its root culture.

[Sarge]

I hate split the world in Thai and Farang. The Farang is a Thai imagination race. In real beyond Farang are Greech , English , Italian, Australian and so on all different with different feeling

Then don't! Just stop using that word. After being here for nearly a decade that word just becomes more offensive day after day. In the beginning I thought it was cute, now I just find it disgusting.

you are right on the money there. I dislike to be labelled farang by people who knows me and worst still by relatives of my Thai family. I'm not shy in making my feeling known to them. It a sign of deep ignorance when somebody who knows your name and yet insist in referring you as farang. I make sure that won't happen a second time.

Regarding the OP idea, just one question; how would you conduct this meeting? English or Thai? Not many Thai know how to speak fluent English and even less foreigners who can converse fluently in Thai. Plus a lot of expats whose English isn't their first language. It sounds like a fun meeting.

[dumball]

I think you may have a reasonable point there , if you could only get the Thai people to follow it in an honest open manner .

[GuestHouse]

I think if you want to understand Thai culture then my best advice is learn the language.

When you have learned the language you can do something very enlightening - Listen.

What Thais say and the way in which they say it will reveal to you more about Thai culture than you'll ever learn in discussions with foreigners on an internet discussion board.

When you understand the Thai language you'll be able to get your information first hand. You might then notice there is a Gap between what Thais tell you is their culture and what their culture really is.

But don't let's blame the Thais for this - You'll also find there is a Gap between what Thai culture is and what you yourself thought it was. The fact that you've listed Love and Sex as the first item in your check list reveals there are things to be learned here.

But I also think it is important to understand your own culture too - we make judgments or other cultures based on our own cultural values, I find it difficult to believe those who are so completely dismissive of their own culture can have any real understanding of Thai culture.

Good luck with learning about the culture of your new home - Just don't believe everything you are told or indeed every thing you tell yourself.

[Tod Daniels]

I do agree with "Guesthouse", although I am hesitant to be on "that side of the proverbial fence". Learning the language was by far the best invested time I have spent here and truly an eye opening experience. It dispelled MANY beliefs and ideas I read and had been told by thais about their "alleged culture".

I also agree the mindless rhetoric thais spout to foreigners concerning their "culture", what they actually say and their actions are completely different from each other. The fall back; "you don't understand 'our "culture" is just an excuse to evade the fact they no longer have the answer to why they do something. They have done it for so long that they don't know the 'why' anymore. The 'gap' guesthouse referred to in what thais tell you is their "culture" and what their "culture" is really; seems more like a yawning chasm than a mere 'gap'. The disparity is truly mind wobbling.

Language is the key, but I believe you will find too few thais fluent enough in engrish to even begin to enter into this conversation with any real depth or coherency. Of course excluding thais educated abroad who have for the most part already discarded their 'culture' as something of little practical value due to their first world exposure.

When I talk to thais educated in-country with degrees in English they are sorely lacking in their proficiency and instead fall back on parroting meaningless answers rather than give any real thought to their reply. This can be blamed on the education system where rote learning is the foundation and critical thinking and/or asking questions, is just not the norm.

Unfortunately I am that weak in the thai language should the subject get into technical terms, political jargon, or stray onto a subject where I just don't have the necessary vocabulary to keep up. I cast no judgment against the thais proficiency or lack thereof in engrish, only offer my observations as anecdotal.

I feel there is so much disparity between thai and western upbringing that neither side will ever understand the other. Instead; acceptance of our differences and tolerance for each other's views is about the best it's ever gonna get.

I can and do accept the mindless actions and idiosyncratic behavior pawned off as "culture"; because after all I live in their country. That doesn't mean for a single second I have to buy into it.

Good luck in your quest to "bridge the gap"

***WARNING*** My version of reality may NOT be compatible with yours, suck it up and deal with it...