Mechanising A Paddy Farm

[DagonKhan]

I'll come clean from the outset and tell you that I'm not a farmer! I don't live in Thailand either, I live across the border in Myanmar. Now that we've got that out of the way.... down to business!

The wife's family has around 80 acres of land which they use for growing paddy during the monsoon. The rest of the year the land lies fallow. There is a very low level of mechanisation and the 80 acres includes "extended family" with one family member owning 50 acres of it. It will come as no surprise to many of you that money is the primary reason. It is too expensive for them to buy fertiliser and diesel for the water pumps to irrigate the paddy's.

What's interesting is that this land (all 80 acres of it) is up for grabs by anyone who wishes to farm it during the dry season. There is no rent to pay, all they ask is that you plow it before the monsoon paddy is planted. Naturally if you require their labour to help plant/harvest the crop you have to pay for it, that choice is up to you. (In actual fact it is not just this 80 acres, any of the neighbouring farmers will gladly do the same). I suspect this in itself may raise a few eyebrows, so let me explain further; all land here essentially belongs to the State, farmers merely have a "permit" to farm that land. If an individual approaches the authorities and informs them that Mr. XYZ is not using his land to its full potential and he/she will, the authorities will confiscate the land and give the individual who will work it the permit instead. It's a pretty nasty way of doing things and I have no intention of going down that route! In any event the farmers are more than happy, especially if you use fertiliser as they believe a residual amount of it will be left and that will benefit their monsoon paddy. Acres and acres of unused paddy land:-

This year a younger couple (part of the family) decided to grow some paddy during the dry season on just 1 acre (2.5 Rai? ). I went along to see how they were getting along close to harvest time, it was then that I learnt about what I have written above. They used fertiliser and they managed to get 100 baskets of rice. The seed stock was local seed from last years harvest. 1 basket here equates to 20.9Kg, not sure if they sell it like this over in Thailand. By local standards that was an excellent result.

Sometime later after they had harvested their crop and had sold it I asked them if they would share with me their costs etc., they did. I have since drawn up a spreadsheet. Their biggest cost by far was diesel, it accounted for just over 50% of their total investment which was followed by fertiliser which accounted for 30%. The majority of the diesel was used for powering a water pump to irrigate the field, the source of the water is a mixture of shallow hand dug wells (about 3 metres deep) and boreholes:-

But they also used an iron buffalo (they have a rotary tiller attachment for this):-

They also have a whole load of cows and buffalo's that they use, on the 80 acres there are only 2 iron buffalo's.

I've been discussing this with the wife and we're keen to have a go. We're not farmers and we would rely on the family to provide that expertise. The planting would be done by hand as they normally do, as would the harvesting. I'm thinking about 20 acres to start with, the investment is modest (around US$200-250/acre) and I can walk away from it if it all goes wrong!

But I've been looking at it again and I'm asking myself whether or not I should investigate further the use of modern machinery. I've been reading several threads on these forums about people who have bought small Kubota and Yanmar tractors, I've also been reading threads about harvesters. It is very common here for people to rent things off each other, if I needed to, I could do that.

What you see in the pictures above is the actual land I'm talking about. The soil I would describe as predominantly clay (and as you may be able to make out from the first photo), it is rock hard during the dry season! Get it wet and I'm worried I will be telling tales of woe similar to some of the ones I've seen on this forum of tractors sinking into the mud!

Questions:

1) If you were going to be farming 20 acres (50 rai? ) of paddy, what size tractor would you be looking at?

2) If you were going to farm more than 20 acres, at what point (in acres or rai) would you need to upgrade your tractor? (Is there some sort of unofficial formula where "x" acres = "x" Hp?)

3) I can imagine a (tine) ripper of some description would be needed to break up the soil first, how much do they cost?

4) Implements; the iron buffalo they use only has a rotary tiller, they use buffalo to pull a single plough, What implements would be necessary? I'm guessing a plough of some description, a dozer blade for levelling/building levees and a rotary tiller. Any pointers on cost?

5) Are PTO powered water pumps more efficient than standalone diesel pumps? Electric is not an option.

6) What increase in yield could you expect if you were using a harvester? It strikes me that what they're doing now is horribly inefficient.

7) What size harvester would you need?

8) If I were to purchase either a harvester or a tractor (or both) in Thailand, can I get training? Or would it be easier to pay someone from Thailand to come over here for a couple of weeks?

Any replies would be much appreciated!

A couple of minor points:- Any equipment or machinery imported here must be new, they won't issue import permits otherwise. I can handle the paperwork and shipment this end, I can even arrange for machinery to be collected in Thailand if needs be. I regularly fly over to Thailand and spare parts need to be available in Bangkok. It's quite easy to get things sent over the border from Thailand (but it takes time). I can also buy other bits and pieces from Singapore if needs be (but that takes even longer!). There are many Yanmar and Kubota engines over here in generating sets, spare parts are relatively easy to come by.

[Issangeorge]

It seems that your family got 836 kilograms per rai, my family is lucky to get around 400 kilograms per rai. That is a great yield your family is getting. Issangeorge

[Gary A]

You can buy fertilizer and diesel but you can't buy water. Water will be the biggest problem. Shallow dug wells are normally not that strong and many go dry during the dry season. Bore holes are not really that dependable either and if they are deep, it takes a good pump to draw the water up. Small self priming pumps powered by the iron buffalo are the most efficient method but you have to be careful to choose those that are designed for the depth of the bore hole.

It sounds like you can find enough labor so I'd forget about a larger tractor. A larger tractor will cost somewhere around 700,000 baht. You can buy ten iron buffaloes for that price. The new generation are very fuel efficient and nearly bulletproof. A large diesel pumping station is also worthless if there is not enough water to pump.

The bottom line is that it's all about water.

[thaipak]

You can buy fertilizer and diesel but you can't buy water. Water will be the biggest problem. Shallow dug wells are normally not that strong and many go dry during the dry season. Bore holes are not really that dependable either and if they are deep, it takes a good pump to draw the water up. Small self priming pumps powered by the iron buffalo are the most efficient method but you have to be careful to choose those that are designed for the depth of the bore hole.

It sounds like you can find enough labor so I'd forget about a larger tractor. A larger tractor will cost somewhere around 700,000 baht. You can buy ten iron buffaloes for that price. The new generation are very fuel efficient and nearly bulletproof. A large diesel pumping station is also worthless if there is not enough water to pump.

The bottom line is that it's all about water.

I think you have got a very good yield as compare to Thailand. New Small Kabuta 80 HP tractors (about 300000 baht) are being made and marketed in Thailand by SIAM CEMENT GROUP. They are two wheels and four wheels as well (parts are available easily). You may add many attachments with them, as a matter of fact we have it here in Khon Kaen and use it on our farm which is quite handy in all seasons. I spray chelated fertilizer on rice after booting stage and use the same tractor for spray. It is good and user friendly. Try one in a shop and see for yourself. There are people who import / export with Mynamar and can deliver u as well.

[Pseacraft]

You have what sounds like a fun project. I would love to have that opportunity. I’ll try and answer some of your questions that best that I can. The land looks very nice and level…

1) If you were going to be farming 20 acres (50 rai? unsure.gif ) of paddy, what size tractor would you be looking at?

I have about half of that I and I am going to be running a 45hp machine, Kubota L4508. You could probably getaway with it's little brother the L3408 too. See attachments.

2) If you were going to farm more than 20 acres, at what point (in acres or rai) would you need to upgrade your tractor? (Is there some sort of unofficial formula where "x" acres = "x" Hp?)

I use to know a “formula” for this but it’s been over 25 years but you could getaway easily with 2hp per acre. The number 2 really sticks out in my memory. Of course it could be from the fact that we ran 1 head of cattle for every 2.5 acres in my part of Oklahoma. :-) ;

3) I can imagine a (tine) ripper of some description would be needed to break up the soil first, how much do they cost?

Ah, prices…fresh from Udorn Kubota, http://kubotaudon.com/home.html 30 Jun 08: L4508 498,000ThB; 6 disc finishing plow 29,500ThB; 4 disc rough plow 29,500ThB; Heavy duty (say clay soil) rotary tiller 60,000ThB; push blade (if needed) 67,500ThB; Front end loader (I don’t like the blade) 175,000ThB. Now I was reading about hard pan problems in the clay soil, that’s the compaction of the soil below the “normal” tillage line that can prevent moisture absorption and retard root development, so one may need to consider a ripper or chisel type plow also, I’ll be making my own as I haven’t seen any in my searches. And these implements require the HP…

4) Implements; the iron buffalo they use only has a rotary tiller, they use buffalo to pull a single plough, What implements would be necessary? I'm guessing a plough of some description, a dozer blade for levelling/building levees and a rotary tiller. Any pointers on cost?

Oops…see above. :-) ; From what I have seen the rough plow goes first then the finish plow. Depending on how tough the soil is you may need to rough plow before you run the rotary tiller. Many of the rotary tillers in Thailand are “cheap” standards and not heavy duty models.

5) Are PTO powered water pumps more efficient than standalone diesel pumps? Electric is not an option.

You see a lot of fly wheel pumps in central Thailand that seem to do a great job. I have only experience with high capacity electric and small pto driven pumps. I’d stick with electric from my experience, not an option I guess. Have you considered a solar pump setup, see www.leonics.com

6) What increase in yield could you expect if you were using a harvester? It strikes me that what they're doing now is horribly inefficient.

Could be another way to earn money for the family. They aren’t cheap and compared to what I am use to stateside they are still inefficient but not as bad as by hand.

7) What size harvester would you need?

There are different sizes in Thailand? I’m use to big John Deere’s. :-) ; I think Kubota’s is about 1.2M ThB though.

8) If I were to purchase either a harvester or a tractor (or both) in Thailand, can I get training? Or would it be easier to pay someone from Thailand to come over here for a couple of weeks?

I think the dealer would be more than happy to educate you, provided there was land available. It isn’t that hard, I started rather late…I was 12.

Eric

L4508_20new1.pdf

Specification_L3408.pdf

[DagonKhan]

That is a great yield your family is getting.

Interesting comparison. As I mentioned above, it is regarded as an excellent result here, I could easily contrast that with one farmer, about a mile away from where they are, who only managed 120 baskets on 5 acres. He used no fertiliser at all and didn't pump much water, he spent a quarter of what they spent on 1 acre over his 5 acres, hardly any water pumped at all. (I doubt they get as much for their crop as you do! Prices here are pretty low as far as I can make out, 100 baskets (2,090Kg) fetched US$278 (about Bt.9200) from their local rice mill. If they had of sold it 2 months later they could have realised US$300. This was back in April this year. Prices for monsoon paddy are about 30-50% higher.)

Here's a picture of the crop a few weeks (I'm guessing 2 or 3 weeks if memory serves me correctly) before they harvested it:-

Water will be the biggest problem. Shallow dug wells are normally not that strong and many go dry during the dry season. Bore holes are not really that dependable either and if they are deep, it takes a good pump to draw the water up. Small self priming pumps powered by the iron buffalo are the most efficient method but you have to be careful to choose those that are designed for the depth of the bore hole.

Point taken, I guess I would have to investigate the flow rates from these wells as well. Interesting point you make about choosing the correct pump according to the depth, I wasn't aware there were different types. Generators are very common out here, I have a small diesel powered one that will give out 5Kva. I've been looking at my submersible pump (it's not a huge one, just a little 2" one, 0.75Kw) and I see that I could power about 5 of them with such a generator. Now I doubt very much doubt that would be enough to irrigate 20 acres, but what if I scaled it up and used bigger pumps? Three phase gensets are easy enough to come by, you can hire them very easily and I have means to transport one. I see a cost for cabling, but I can do that myself.

Is there any guidelines you could give me on how many litres/gallons per rai/acre you pump and how often you pump? This obviously depends on the land, but the evaporation I would imagine to be reasonably constant?

It sounds like you can find enough labor so I'd forget about a larger tractor. A larger tractor will cost somewhere around 700,000 baht. You can buy ten iron buffaloes for that price. The new generation are very fuel efficient and nearly bulletproof. A large diesel pumping station is also worthless if there is not enough water to pump.

Finding labour certainly wouldn't be a problem, you're correct on that. The iron buffalos that you see here at the local market (I've spent quite some time looking at these already) are all powered by Chinese engines (about US$1,500 without any attachments). All of the farmers I have talked to have told me that these engines need to be rebuilt every year, reliability appears to be an issue with them. I've recently learnt that there are Japanese iron buffalo's on the market apparently, I haven'y come across any just yet. So you're talking around US$22,000 for a larger tractor? What sort of price do the various implements cost?

I'm tempted to do the first year with 20 acres without purchasing much at all, hire equipment if needs be. I want to see if the results they achieved above can really be replicated and the only way I'm going to find that out is if I actually do it. They did tell me that the majority of the diesel they purchased was for the water pump, I need to think about that some more.

I think you have got a very good yield as compare to Thailand. New Small Kabuta 80 HP tractors (about 300000 baht) are being made and marketed in Thailand by SIAM CEMENT GROUP. They are two wheels and four wheels as well (parts are available easily). You may add many attachments with them, as a matter of fact we have it here in Khon Kaen and use it on our farm which is quite handy in all seasons. I spray chelated fertilizer on rice after booting stage and use the same tractor for spray. It is good and user friendly. Try one in a shop and see for yourself. There are people who import / export with Mynamar and can deliver u as well.

I appreciate that information Thaipak. This leads me on to another question, is it better to have two smaller tractors or just one big one? I'm thinking fuel economy and working more efficiently, as well as breakdowns etc.

[DagonKhan]

Pseacraft,

That Kubota link that you have provided is a gem! I don't read Thai, but I can get a pretty good idea as they have pictures and prices. It answers a whole load of "other" questions regarding prices that I was thinking about asking you guys!

Interesting link with regards to the solar powered pumps. I fear that even their highest capacity system wouldn't come close to providing enough water though, but interesting nonetheless. Pumps is clearly something I need to some serious research on!

You read my mind about the harvesting. Everyone I spoke to told me that they get in a "gang" who harvests the fields for them, here's one of the guys harvesting their field:-

I printed out some pictures from some of the websites of harvesters and showed them to a few of the local farmers, they had never seen them before! They had seen tractors and the implements they use, but they had never seen them working. Apparently there is a large state owned farm about a couple of hours drive away where they have as many as 30 tractors, but no harvesters. I may take a drive one day to see if I can't see what they're using. Nine times out of ten, whatever the Government does here is hugely inefficient though, not sure I would want to base my ideas on their business model!

With all the useful information regarding prices and sizes etc. it gives me the ability to put it all down on paper and see what my options are, I appreciate the help with that.

Cheers!

[JerryPara]

Pseacraft,

That Kubota link that you have provided is a gem! I don't read Thai, but I can get a pretty good idea as they have pictures and prices. It answers a whole load of "other" questions regarding prices that I was thinking about asking you guys!

Interesting link with regards to the solar powered pumps. I fear that even their highest capacity system wouldn't come close to providing enough water though, but interesting nonetheless. Pumps is clearly something I need to some serious research on!

You read my mind about the harvesting. Everyone I spoke to told me that they get in a "gang" who harvests the fields for them, here's one of the guys harvesting their field:-

I printed out some pictures from some of the websites of harvesters and showed them to a few of the local farmers, they had never seen them before! They had seen tractors and the implements they use, but they had never seen them working. Apparently there is a large state owned farm about a couple of hours drive away where they have as many as 30 tractors, but no harvesters. I may take a drive one day to see if I can't see what they're using. Nine times out of ten, whatever the Government does here is hugely inefficient though, not sure I would want to base my ideas on their business model!

With all the useful information regarding prices and sizes etc. it gives me the ability to put it all down on paper and see what my options are, I appreciate the help with that.

Cheers!

WRT: tractor pricing, I don't know if you are thinking of Thailand Tractor places, but there is another Kubota tractor place ~3 kilometer from the link provided above. I went to both places and compared prices. This other place is just off the Udon outer ring road toward town on the left. I think the name is Vichit. His prices are much less. I got my L3408 for 350,000 with a front blade and 4 blade plow it was 400,000 even. I just purchased a Rotary tiller from him for 32K when it was around 45K for the same model above. He did not have the correct blades for the same Tiller but the more expensive place above did. They seem very organized there.

Amount of water needed: We are growing rubber. I asked a consultant who told me it is 10liters/day per tree.

I would be interested if anyone has any other numbers.

So i am planning a 25,000 liter ground level tank for the 30 rai of rubber, ~2500 trees. I have been working on the same no power water pumping issue as you. I also have a 750w submersible 220v pump. BTW, the locals stole the wire off of it so I had to pull the whole thing up and out 4 (4meter)lengths of 1.5" galvanized, ouch ... not sure if you have that problem in Cambodia. See also, "Boreholes", another Farming Forum topic regarding water.

Solar is good but not cost effective now, with all the development going on maybe in a couple of years. There is another method using a solar collector and a sterling engine(about 25-30% efficient, compared to solar ~8%) but I have not found any systems on the market yet. There are plans though and they should have residencial models in about 2 years too.

We have a 8KW portable generator for welding and such. But I used it to test the gas usage and it used 1-liter of gasoline to pump 2300 Liters of water ~40Meters [pumping height] to a water tower.

Anyone have any other consumption figures?

It took about 80 minutes to do that. To get the 25,000 liters I want it will take about 8 hours or 340 baht(42ß/L) every day to supply 10 liters to each tree in the dry season. I'm not sure how much water you are looking at but this can give you an idea. for 6 months thats ~62K baht to get maybe a 30% increase in productivity. Is it worth it? Maybe a smaller gen'tr and a ground lever tank would make it more reasonable.

Any body want to check my numbers please , please do.

After you get it set up I would be interested to know how much gas yours uses? I am not there often so supplying the gas day after day or a large storage is not viable for me. A smaller generator would do fine but you have to take into consideration the starting current will be more the 750watts. If I remember correctly, I think the starting current is 3x the nominal. A big store in Udon town also suggested to use a 2200w Gen'tr for a 750w pump. For your 5 pump - 5KW gen'tr situation if you start each of them at different times you should be OK. Another consideration maybe to see how far the nearest house is that has power and run it from them with your own meter. For me it is 1.7Km is the nearest and I am considering this as an option. Still worry about the electric line and poles growing legs and walking away though, so we may route it along the road ... more visible.

Good luck ... Would like to hear what you finally do ..Ps there is some great underwater electrical tape available if you have to make a pump connection in the bore hole.

[JerryPara]

Pseacraft,

That Kubota link that you have provided is a gem! I don't read Thai, but I can get a pretty good idea as they have pictures and prices. It answers a whole load of "other" questions regarding prices that I was thinking about asking you guys!

Interesting link with regards to the solar powered pumps. I fear that even their highest capacity system wouldn't come close to providing enough water though, but interesting nonetheless. Pumps is clearly something I need to some serious research on!

You read my mind about the harvesting. Everyone I spoke to told me that they get in a "gang" who harvests the fields for them, here's one of the guys harvesting their field:-

I printed out some pictures from some of the websites of harvesters and showed them to a few of the local farmers, they had never seen them before! They had seen tractors and the implements they use, but they had never seen them working. Apparently there is a large state owned farm about a couple of hours drive away where they have as many as 30 tractors, but no harvesters. I may take a drive one day to see if I can't see what they're using. Nine times out of ten, whatever the Government does here is hugely inefficient though, not sure I would want to base my ideas on their business model!

With all the useful information regarding prices and sizes etc. it gives me the ability to put it all down on paper and see what my options are, I appreciate the help with that.

Cheers!

WRT: tractor pricing, I don't know if you are thinking of Thailand Tractor places, but there is another Kubota tractor place ~3 kilometer from the link provided above. I went to both places and compared prices. This other place is just off the Udon outer ring road toward town on the left. I think the name is Vichit. His prices are much less. I got my L3408 for 350,000 with a front blade and 4 blade plow it was 400,000 even. I just purchased a Rotary tiller from him for 32K when it was around 45K for the same model above. He did not have the correct blades for the same Tiller but the more expensive place above did. They seem very organized there.

Amount of water needed: We are growing rubber. I asked a consultant who told me it is 10liters/day per tree.

I would be interested if anyone has any other numbers.

So i am planning a 25,000 liter ground level tank for the 30 rai of rubber, ~2500 trees. I have been working on the same no power water pumping issue as you. I also have a 750w submersible 220v pump. BTW, the locals stole the wire off of it so I had to pull the whole thing up and out 4 (4meter)lengths of 1.5" galvanized, ouch ... not sure if you have that problem in Cambodia. See also, "Boreholes", another Farming Forum topic regarding water.

Solar is good but not cost effective now, with all the development going on maybe in a couple of years. There is another method using a solar collector and a sterling engine(about 25-30% efficient, compared to solar ~8%) but I have not found any systems on the market yet. There are plans though and they should have residencial models in about 2 years too.

We have a 8KW portable generator for welding and such. But I used it to test the gas usage and it used 1-liter of gasoline to pump 2300 Liters of water ~40Meters [pumping height] to a water tower.

Anyone have any other consumption figures?

It took about 80 minutes to do that. To get the 25,000 liters I want it will take about 8 hours or 340 baht(42ß/L) every day to supply 10 liters to each tree in the dry season. I'm not sure how much water you are looking at but this can give you an idea. for 6 months thats ~62K baht to get maybe a 30% increase in productivity. Is it worth it? Maybe a smaller gen'tr and a ground lever tank would make it more reasonable.

Any body want to check my numbers please , please do.

After you get it set up I would be interested to know how much gas yours uses? I am not there often so supplying the gas day after day or a large storage is not viable for me. A smaller generator would do fine but you have to take into consideration the starting current will be more the 750watts. If I remember correctly, I think the starting current is 3x the nominal. A big store in Udon town also suggested to use a 2200w Gen'tr for a 750w pump. For your 5 pump - 5KW gen'tr situation if you start each of them at different times you should be OK. Another consideration maybe to see how far the nearest house is that has power and run it from them with your own meter. For me it is 1.7Km is the nearest and I am considering this as an option. Still worry about the electric line and poles growing legs and walking away though, so we may route it along the road ... more visible.

Good luck ... Would like to hear what you finally do ..Ps there is some great underwater electrical tape available if you have to make a pump connection in the bore hole.

Sorry, its late ... looks like I confused where you live Myramar with Cambodia.

[pumpuiman]

you may find this article interesting. It refers to higher yields using 40% less water.

[Mrjlh]

Very interesting project you have. I'm not a farmer either, just an old retired mechanical engineer.

Have you considered installing a "windmill"? And putting in a small pond to store the water? For the times when the wind isn't blowing you also use a small electric pump just below the mechanical pump. A quick Internet search had a 18 foot high one at around $10K US depending where you buy it from and all the extras. 10 footer half as much. And I think you can even drill the well with it using attachments. Just a suggestion. Good luck.

[DagonKhan]

Hi Jerry,

Interesting to hear what you have to say about the pumps.

I remain quite convinced that a genset is a viable option as far as fuel economy goes. I have several gensets that I use for "prime" power here in Myanmar, the local electricity supply is awful or non existant! The one in the picture below sits outside my house (the chain is to prevent thieves from nicking the battery as well as parts, that's quite common here! ):-

You can find the specs to that here:- http://www.denyo.co.jp/english/products/pdf/da-6000ss.pdf

I use it when they cut the electric here to power a split unit aircon, fridge, TV & Satellite and my PC which it powers no problems at all. I used to have a small three phase 25Kva here in it's place that would power the whole house but I moved that as I needed it for something else. As you can see from the specs it uses 2.1 litres of diesel per hour at 100% load which is 5.5Kva. I can tell you that I don't use 2.1 l/hr here at home, it's less than that, but I've used the maximum figure in my calculations as I like to err on the side of caution. In my 'real' business I use a whole load of pumps and I have access to Pedrollo pumps out here. I can power three Pedrollo HFm 6BR pumps with that genset, each pump which will shift 1000-1100 litres per minute with a head of 5-7 metres. Each pump is rated at 1500W. Essentially I can pump ((3000 litres x 60 mins) x 3 pumps) 540,000 litres/hour of water and use just 2.1 litres (maximum) of diesel to achieve that.

I've decided to start by mapping the land area first, for this I'm using Google Earth believe it or not! It gives me the rough layout and is surprisingly accurate if you use the measurement feature (I've checked a few measurements with a 100m measuring tape reel). I've drawn up a sketch based on that and I've recently ordered an automatic optical level, a Topcon ATG6. I will then survey the land to ascertain the levels of the particular fields and irrigation canals. The irrigation canals out here are tidal, I have a managed to get hold of the tide tables, that will help me calculate depth as well. I went out there just last Thursday and they're busy transplanting paddy at the moment (about 90% complete, they'll be finished by now). I couldn't help but notice how uneven the fields were, the eye deceives! This will then help me decide how deep and where I need to extend the irrigation canals. I've had a quote for a backhoe based on a daily rate, problem is I'm not quite sure what I want until my survey is complete. I do of course have a rough idea. All of this is because of water! I need to ensure I have enough water available to pump and I want the fields as level as possible to minimise the pumping. I'm estimating that I will need around 22,000 to 35,000 litres/day/acre for paddy and I will need to irrigate 20 acres. Even if I find that I'm pushing the genset with 3 pumps and I have to run 2 instead, I can comfortably achieve that. I also totally agree with what you said about starting the pumps up at different times.

The Pedrollo pumps I expect to cost me around US$800 a piece, the genset I have, that cost US$4500. I should point out that this genset is designed for residential use with the acoustic canopy etc. It would be much cheaper for me to purchase an open type and rig it up in a simple "hut" in which to house it, but I'm going to use what I have first! There will of course be a cost for cabling and switchgear, US$500 will cover that easily, most of it will be for the cable.

Like you, the nearest electricity supply is not so close, I've just checked on Google Earth and it's approx. 2 km away in my case. I could go and erect concrete poles and pay to be connected, that would mean at least a 3 year wait for them to get off their <deleted> and do something and at least US$5,000 from my pocket. I would then end up getting electricity for 4 hours per day as it is rationed out there. No thanks!

I appreciate the cost for the tractors and implements, this website has been wonderful in helping me fill in a lot of blank spaces. I appreciate that.

Interesting link pumpuiman. I remain a little skeptical about these sort of initiatives, it would be interesting to hear from someone that has first hand experience.

Edited July 20, 2008 by DagonKhan

[DagonKhan]

Have you considered installing a "windmill"? And putting in a small pond to store the water? For the times when the wind isn't blowing you also use a small electric pump just below the mechanical pump. A quick Internet search had a 18 foot high one at around $10K US depending where you buy it from and all the extras. 10 footer half as much. And I think you can even drill the well with it using attachments. Just a suggestion. Good luck.

The problem with windmills and solar is that they just don't deliver. I am of course referring to quantity here. I've looked into both and as a long term investment they have their advantages but when I calculate the investment required I always end up coming back to diesel. I wish that weren't the case! If I end up becoming far more involved in this (than I probably should! ), then yes I would revisit the idea.

[Maizefarmer]

DagonKhan

Something missing: do you know the max sustainable flow rate achievable from the current well/borehole?

Sustainable I mean - max that can be lifted without having to stop or slow the pump to allow the well/bore to [re]fill?

The point here, amongst half a dozen others (all I'll gladly discuss with you if you can come back with a max sustainable flow-rate figure), is that putting aside water avalibility, the amount you can lift over any given period of time will determine the largest size pump you can use - and looking at what you already have (i.e. 3'5" - 4") I'm guessing that even if its cheaper to run a large 40hp-50hp - or even larger pto type pump off a tractor, the point is if you are pumping from a sub-6" diameter well from 3m - 3,5m through a 3" - 4" pipe, it's pointless buying a bigger pump. You'll just run it dry.

That, as I said, is just one of about 5 or 6 issues related to max sustainable flow rate permissable from the wells you have.

Putting aside the points raised so far (by yourself and others in reply - all of which are quite valid) I can't help but think however you look at this project, the one thing that you are going to have to look into is that 50% diesel pumping expense - and that means a larger and deeper well to sustain higher flow rates, cheaper pumping costs, less mainatenance, less time spent pumping etc etc .......

Then start making machinary choices i.e. the largest pto pump your new well will sustain the flow of (and that you can afford), a tractor sized to drive that pump, now "tools" (i.e. disc plough and whatever else you want) matched to the tractor.

Spreadsheets are great, sadly though in respect of farming they seldom scale up with much degree of accuracy

Getting a sense of your costs and the viability of your project, are in my opinion best modeled around firstly determining the water avaiability, then the max you can afford to pump without running the supply dry - and that means the max diameter hole you can afford to sink to the deepest depth and can afford to sink it to. Remember - its always easier to upgrade/enlarge the pump than the size of the borehole - so if its a toss-up which gets priority, give it to the borehole.

Model everything around this starting point and my suspicion is you will have got your costs as low as practically possible.

[DagonKhan]

Something missing: do you know the max sustainable flow rate achievable from the current well/borehole? Sustainable I mean - max that can be lifted without having to stop or slow the pump to allow the well/bore to [re]fill?

Sorry, I should have elaborated above that I'm now looking to extend an irrigation canal. Initially I had been told that the water was unsuitable, there were question marks about the salinity of the water that I've since discovered were unfounded. Basically I'm looking to dig a loooong ditch and build a small road with the spoils! Valid points about the borehole, there is no way that a 4" borehole would produce enough water.

Putting aside the points raised so far (by yourself and others in reply - all of which are quite valid) I can't help but think however you look at this project, the one thing that you are going to have to look into is that 50% diesel pumping expense - and that means a larger and deeper well to sustain higher flow rates, cheaper pumping costs, less mainatenance, less time spent pumping etc etc .......

Indeed. I read your borehole thread with interest. The borehole idea scares me quite frankly, I'd rather throw a few thousand dollars at an irrigation ditch and use that as a source. The cost of drilling the boreholes and the cost of running the pumps (not to mention buying them) justifies the cost of getting a back hoe in for a couple of weeks.

Then start making machinary choices i.e. the largest pto pump your new well will sustain the flow of (and that you can afford), a tractor sized to drive that pump, now "tools" (i.e. disc plough and whatever else you want) matched to the tractor.

I'm glad you raised that! I read one of your posts where you put up some photos of a large orange coloured pump that was pto driven. I believe (not really sure) that is was something like these ones? :- http://www.crisafulli.com/images/brochures...%20ranchers.pdf (It's a 8Mb download I'm afraid). The website for that is here:- http://www.crisafulli.com

Maizefarmer, apart from that link above I have totally failed to find out anything about pto powered pumps! I would dearly love to learn more but I'm at a loss to find anything.

Spreadsheets are great, sadly though in respect of farming they seldom scale up with much degree of accuracy

You know I'm not going to disagree with you there! I'm trying to be as accurate as possible because naturally I feel I need to get some idea of what I'm doing and where it's likely to take me.

I'm glad you popped in, I've read a great many of your previous posts with great interest. Always happy to get input!

[pumpuiman]

A more detailed article on increased production with less water.

Perhaps trying a "test" area using this method would be interesting, and could possibly change an entire country's way of thinking on rice production. Imagine getting up to double yield from the same area as your neighbor...using one tenth the seeds and nearly half the water.

There has been some discussion of this method here...but I can't track down the thread..perhaps another member knows?

[pumpuiman]

Another detailed report which I got from this website.

I don't want to seem pushy....I've just been poking around the web and there's lots of info out there, so I thought I'd pass it along.

You seem like a perfect candidate for such an endeavor (or may be...depending on your soils salinity level)

Good luck.

[Maizefarmer]

That big "orange pump" you refer to is by far your most economic way of lifting water from ditches and canals into paddy fields. Whats important to keep in mind about them is that they are hopeless pressure pumps: they will not lift much above 3 - 4meters and above 5 their efficiency is hopeless.

But what they are superb at is lifting very large volumes at low pressures very very efficiently. So - if you are going to extend your canal/ditch - then yes, it is your best option: you just need to know what the canal/ditch flow rate is so you can scale the pump size/diameter correctly.

In the correct order:

a) max water than can be lifted from the canal (gallons per minute or cubic meters per hour are the best figures to work in - or liters per minute if you wish)

now choose the correct pump size - giving priority to tube diameter versus screw/impeller rpm (ie. choose as large a tube diameter as possible at as slow an rpm as possible)

c) now get the belt drive on the pump ratio'd correctly for the tractor pto shaft speed - which wil be either 540/560 or 1000rpm.

... thats pretty much all there is to it.

Just what is it you want to know about pto pumps? I short just about any pump can be mounted on a frame (which is used to support the pump and carry it around on the tractors rear hitch) and driven by the tractor pto shaft.

The primary design criteria to keep in mind when choosing a pump and building the frame to support it are getting the ratios right, shaft alignments, and vibration:

a) belt drive ratio: ensuring the gear box chosen or the frame mounted belt & pulley drive system chosen and constructed, drives the pump at its rated rpm at the most efficient tractor engine rpm for the correct pto speed. Its highschool mathematics - no more complicated than that, but its important to get it all worked out correctly other wise efficiency suffers real bad e.g. pointless running the tractor at 1200rpm for example if there is sufficient engine torque to drive the pump through the belt drive frame mounted gearbox at a tractor engine speed of say 750 rpm, or, pointless choosing a pump that is capable of pumping more water than the canal can supply, but then having to run it slower than its rated speed. That too, will result in more fuel being consumed than needed to do the job.

belt drive "gearboxes" are best choice: pulleys and belts are avalible in all sorts of sizes from rural/ag supply stores, they isolate the engine/tractor vibration from pump shaft bearings very well, they "absorb" misalignment between the tractor pto and pump shaft well, they are easily changed or resized/re-ratio'd at any time you decide to change the pump size, they cheap to maintain and fix, and last but not least - they are easily constructed.

c) always use 2 or 3 belts and pulleys in parrllel - this will allow for one to snap with no downtime, and always keep a few spare.

... what else do you want to know about pto pumps?

[DagonKhan]

That big "orange pump" you refer to is by far your most economic way of lifting water from ditches and canals into paddy fields. Whats important to keep in mind about them is that they are hopeless pressure pumps: they will not lift much above 3 - 4meters and above 5 their efficiency is hopeless.

This is one of the reasons I want to do a survey first so I can see what levels I'm working with. I'm going to "guess" that the head will be no more than 3 metres with the tidal variation.

But what they are superb at is lifting very large volumes at low pressures very very efficiently. So - if you are going to extend your canal/ditch - then yes, it is your best option: you just need to know what the canal/ditch flow rate is so you can scale the pump size/diameter correctly.

It's essentially river water that I'll be pumping and the ditch should be able to provide far more water than what I could possibly want.

In the correct order:

a) max water than can be lifted from the canal (gallons per minute or cubic meters per hour are the best figures to work in - or liters per minute if you wish)

now choose the correct pump size - giving priority to tube diameter versus screw/impeller rpm (ie. choose as large a tube diameter as possible at as slow an rpm as possible)

c) now get the belt drive on the pump ratio'd correctly for the tractor pto shaft speed - which wil be either 540/560 or 1000rpm.

... thats pretty much all there is to it.

Just what is it you want to know about pto pumps? I short just about any pump can be mounted on a frame (which is used to support the pump and carry it around on the tractors rear hitch) and driven by the tractor pto shaft.

The primary design criteria to keep in mind when choosing a pump and building the frame to support it are getting the ratios right, shaft alignments, and vibration:

a) belt drive ratio: ensuring the gear box chosen or the frame mounted belt & pulley drive system chosen and constructed, drives the pump at its rated rpm at the most efficient tractor engine rpm for the correct pto speed. Its highschool mathematics - no more complicated than that, but its important to get it all worked out correctly other wise efficiency suffers real bad e.g. pointless running the tractor at 1200rpm for example if there is sufficient engine torque to drive the pump through the belt drive frame mounted gearbox at a tractor engine speed of say 750 rpm, or, pointless choosing a pump that is capable of pumping more water than the canal can supply, but then having to run it slower than its rated speed. That too, will result in more fuel being consumed than needed to do the job.

belt drive "gearboxes" are best choice: pulleys and belts are avalible in all sorts of sizes from rural/ag supply stores, they isolate the engine/tractor vibration from pump shaft bearings very well, they "absorb" misalignment between the tractor pto and pump shaft well, they are easily changed or resized/re-ratio'd at any time you decide to change the pump size, they cheap to maintain and fix, and last but not least - they are easily constructed.

c) always use 2 or 3 belts and pulleys in parrllel - this will allow for one to snap with no downtime, and always keep a few spare.

... what else do you want to know about pto pumps?

The pump that you have MF, the big "orange" one, what sort of pto Hp do you need to power such a beast? As I mentioned before I have completely failed in my quest to find out any real data about pto driven pumps. I understand that one can be fabricated, that concerns me a little. I have the facilities to maintain/service equipment but I've never done any fabrication as such, I've always contracted that part out to a local "welder" and handed him a rough sketch and a photo! Something that could be copied. I'm not familiar with the whole "pto" thing as I don't own a tractor, although I understand the basic principle. I fear I just don't know enough and I don't really want to buy a tractor later on into the project to find out! I agree with your earlier points and those made by Gary A that water is a top priority. Just as I would buy a plough or rotary tiller "off the shelf", I would prefer to take a look at a pto pump off the shelf. I guess it's a question of confidence for me and I don't feel confident enough to make one myself.

This also comes back to sizing equipment like tractors (talking about pumps), I can't see a need for a huge tractor. Right now I'm thinking that the Kubota L3408 or the L4508 would be more than sufficient for the various tasks at hand. If a tiny genset can (theoretically) deliver the water I require, these tractors should have more than enough power!

[DagonKhan]

Another detailed report which I got from this website.

I don't want to seem pushy....I've just been poking around the web and there's lots of info out there, so I thought I'd pass it along.

You seem like a perfect candidate for such an endeavor (or may be...depending on your soils salinity level)

Good luck.

I will indeed have a look and I thank you for posting those.

Cheers!

[Maizefarmer]

That big "orange pump" you refer to is by far your most economic way of lifting water from ditches and canals into paddy fields. Whats important to keep in mind about them is that they are hopeless pressure pumps: they will not lift much above 3 - 4meters and above 5 their efficiency is hopeless.

This is one of the reasons I want to do a survey first so I can see what levels I'm working with. I'm going to "guess" that the head will be no more than 3 metres with the tidal variation.

But what they are superb at is lifting very large volumes at low pressures very very efficiently. So - if you are going to extend your canal/ditch - then yes, it is your best option: you just need to know what the canal/ditch flow rate is so you can scale the pump size/diameter correctly.

It's essentially river water that I'll be pumping and the ditch should be able to provide far more water than what I could possibly want.

In the correct order:

a) max water than can be lifted from the canal (gallons per minute or cubic meters per hour are the best figures to work in - or liters per minute if you wish)

now choose the correct pump size - giving priority to tube diameter versus screw/impeller rpm (ie. choose as large a tube diameter as possible at as slow an rpm as possible)

c) now get the belt drive on the pump ratio'd correctly for the tractor pto shaft speed - which wil be either 540/560 or 1000rpm.

... thats pretty much all there is to it.

Just what is it you want to know about pto pumps? I short just about any pump can be mounted on a frame (which is used to support the pump and carry it around on the tractors rear hitch) and driven by the tractor pto shaft.

The primary design criteria to keep in mind when choosing a pump and building the frame to support it are getting the ratios right, shaft alignments, and vibration:

a) belt drive ratio: ensuring the gear box chosen or the frame mounted belt & pulley drive system chosen and constructed, drives the pump at its rated rpm at the most efficient tractor engine rpm for the correct pto speed. Its highschool mathematics - no more complicated than that, but its important to get it all worked out correctly other wise efficiency suffers real bad e.g. pointless running the tractor at 1200rpm for example if there is sufficient engine torque to drive the pump through the belt drive frame mounted gearbox at a tractor engine speed of say 750 rpm, or, pointless choosing a pump that is capable of pumping more water than the canal can supply, but then having to run it slower than its rated speed. That too, will result in more fuel being consumed than needed to do the job.

belt drive "gearboxes" are best choice: pulleys and belts are avalible in all sorts of sizes from rural/ag supply stores, they isolate the engine/tractor vibration from pump shaft bearings very well, they "absorb" misalignment between the tractor pto and pump shaft well, they are easily changed or resized/re-ratio'd at any time you decide to change the pump size, they cheap to maintain and fix, and last but not least - they are easily constructed.

c) always use 2 or 3 belts and pulleys in parrllel - this will allow for one to snap with no downtime, and always keep a few spare.

... what else do you want to know about pto pumps?

The pump that you have MF, the big "orange" one, what sort of pto Hp do you need to power such a beast? As I mentioned before I have completely failed in my quest to find out any real data about pto driven pumps. I understand that one can be fabricated, that concerns me a little. I have the facilities to maintain/service equipment but I've never done any fabrication as such, I've always contracted that part out to a local "welder" and handed him a rough sketch and a photo! Something that could be copied. I'm not familiar with the whole "pto" thing as I don't own a tractor, although I understand the basic principle. I fear I just don't know enough and I don't really want to buy a tractor later on into the project to find out! I agree with your earlier points and those made by Gary A that water is a top priority. Just as I would buy a plough or rotary tiller "off the shelf", I would prefer to take a look at a pto pump off the shelf. I guess it's a question of confidence for me and I don't feel confident enough to make one myself.

This also comes back to sizing equipment like tractors (talking about pumps), I can't see a need for a huge tractor. Right now I'm thinking that the Kubota L3408 or the L4508 would be more than sufficient for the various tasks at hand. If a tiny genset can (theoretically) deliver the water I require, these tractors should have more than enough power!

This pump (and I have reposted the picture with this note) can run off 55hp upwards - best will be around 75hp - 85hp - so the typical Ford 6610/7610 (Thailands most popular tractor units) is idealy suited. I run it off my NH 89 series tractor (which is a 260hp tractor) - with the engine running at idle. The nice thing about it is that it is designed to run at the tractors standard 1000rpm pto speed, so no matching gearbox is required.

A note about tractor pto speeds - doesn't matter what speed the tractor engine is running at, the pto on most tractors will run +/- 10% of its rated speed - such is relationship the gearbox has between the engine and the pto shaft output. The advantage with a large engine (higher power output) is that you can afford to run the tractor engine at a lower rpm e.g. on a 40hp - 50hp Kubota you are going to have to set the throttle at the top end of the tractor operating speed because you are going to need all 40hp - 50hp, whereas with a 6610/7610 you will be able to get away with running the tractor engine at the bottom of the working rpm range - and with a larger tractor, (as with my New Holland) running it at idle speed produces all the power needed.

Keep in mind though that fuel consumption, as a rough rule, is a function of grams fuel consumed per kilowatt produced per hour - in other words: Running a 260hp engine will not actually consume much more fuel than using a 40hp Kubota or a 80hp Ford to drive this pump, as the fuel used will be related to the hp being produced and used, irrespective of the engine size - and most tractor engines consume much the same fuel per kilowatt they produce per hour. If anything, the larger tractor engines get, the less fuel they use per kilowatt they produce per hour. You'll get away with using the L4508, but not the smaller Kubota (L3408) - no matter what rpm you run it at, I doubt it will have sufficient torque/hp to run this pump efficiently.

At 1000rpm this pump is lifting around 3600litres - 4300litres per minute (at around 40 - 45degrees, or 2,3 meters lift), or just over 320 tons per hour. At 1meter lift that will rise to something around 600tons per hour!)

Note- these figures are off the top of my head (albeit they arent far off in any event) - I am striving here to convey the principal you should keep in mind making your choice, more so than an accurate figure - however, I am more than happy to work them out exactly if you need.

So - as long as your canal/ditch can sustain flow rates of around 3500litres per minute, you'll be fine. If its less, then you are going to be looking for a smaller diameter pump/tube/impeller combination say 8" diameter (this one is 12") - and in that case, yes, perhaps then the L3408 Kubota will be fine, and you should then be able to lift something around 2000 - 4000 litres per minute.

Don't under estimate the volume of water you are going to have to pump to fill in 50rai of paddy field - it is going to be in the millions of litres! - so time is going to be a very important part of your pump choice/setup. Fortuneatly pressure is a non-issue here is you are not having to lift much more than a few meters.

[DagonKhan]

This pump (and I have reposted the picture with this note) can run off 55hp upwards - best will be around 75hp - 85hp - so the typical Ford 6610/7610 (Thailands most popular tractor units) is idealy suited. I run it off my NH 89 series tractor (which is a 260hp tractor) - with the engine running at idle. The nice thing about it is that it is designed to run at the tractors standard 1000rpm pto speed, so no matching gearbox is required.

A note about tractor pto speeds - doesn't matter what speed the tractor engine is running at, the pto on most tractors will run +/- 10% of its rated speed - such is relationship the gearbox has between the engine and the pto shaft output. The advantage with a large engine (higher power output) is that you can afford to run the tractor engine at a lower rpm e.g. on a 40hp - 50hp Kubota you are going to have to set the throttle at the top end of the tractor operating speed because you are going to need all 40hp - 50hp, whereas with a 6610/7610 you will be able to get away with running the tractor engine at the bottom of the working rpm range - and with a larger tractor, (as with my New Holland) running it at idle speed produces all the power needed.

Keep in mind though that fuel consumption, as a rough rule, is a function of grams fuel consumed per kilowatt produced per hour - in other words: Running a 260hp engine will not actually consume much more fuel than using a 40hp Kubota or a 80hp Ford to drive this pump, as the fuel used will be related to the hp being produced and used, irrespective of the engine size - and most tractor engines consume much the same fuel per kilowatt they produce per hour. If anything, the larger tractor engines get, the less fuel they use per kilowatt they produce per hour. You'll get away with using the L4508, but not the smaller Kubota (L3408) - no matter what rpm you run it at, I doubt it will have sufficient torque/hp to run this pump efficiently.

At 1000rpm this pump is lifting around 3600litres - 4300litres per minute (at around 40 - 45degrees, or 2,3 meters lift), or just over 320 tons per hour. At 1meter lift that will rise to something around 600tons per hour!)

Note- these figures are off the top of my head (albeit they arent far off in any event) - I am striving here to convey the principal you should keep in mind making your choice, more so than an accurate figure - however, I am more than happy to work them out exactly if you need.

So - as long as your canal/ditch can sustain flow rates of around 3500litres per minute, you'll be fine. If its less, then you are going to be looking for a smaller diameter pump/tube/impeller combination say 8" diameter (this one is 12") - and in that case, yes, perhaps then the L3408 Kubota will be fine, and you should then be able to lift something around 2000 - 4000 litres per minute.

Don't under estimate the volume of water you are going to have to pump to fill in 50rai of paddy field - it is going to be in the millions of litres! - so time is going to be a very important part of your pump choice/setup. Fortuneatly pressure is a non-issue here is you are not having to lift much more than a few meters.

That's interesting to note what you say about engine speeds and tractor HP, it does of course make perfect sense and I can see what you're trying to say.

I want to jump to the last bit where you mention that I shouldn't under estimate the amount of water required for paddy. If you scroll up you'll note that I mentioned that I believe I will need 25,000-35,000 litres/acre/day, this is a figure I have determined from my research, it's a "best guess" basically. I've rather been hoping that a rice farmer might pick me up on that if the figures look wrong! I will of course be planting in the dry season and there will be NO rain! The dry season here really is dry, in 10 years I have only experienced one or two light showers (and I'm not exaggerating!) in March and nothing in January or February. The rain normally starts around mid-April and I would expect the rice to be harvested by then. The soil is clay. The only source of water will be irrigation, I really need to get this bit right!

So back to the maths and pump sizing, I believe I will need 500,000 to 700,000 litres per day to cover the 20 acres (50 rai). Now if I take the higher figure and assume I can get 3,000 litres/min from a pto pump using a small Kubota L3408, that would mean running the pto pump constantly for almost 4 hours per day, does that sound feasible?

[Maizefarmer]

How much water you'll have to pump is of course length x breadth x depth - I don't know the depth to which you will have to fill your land i.e. I don;t know the residual water left behind from the rainy season, in which case yes, your figures may well be correct.

I also don;t know how much water evapourates per day from a rice paddy, but I do know that from a corn field its over 10tons per day per acre. Yes - that much, and its all down to the surface tension of the soil structure and vegetation growth. The question is: is the surface for growing rice less or more? I don't. For a ploughed field versus a equal area of water on the surface of a pond - well, the surface tension pf pure water (i.e. on the surface of a pond) is substantialy higher, and odd as it may seem, less water will evapourate per day from a 1acre pond surface than will evapourate from a field of corn!

How this relates to a rice crop I don;t know, so I can;t say how much you are gowing to ahve to pump per day or week, to sustain water levels in the pady fields, but I wouldn;t have thought you figures are far wrong one way or the other.

So 4 hours per day sounds quite feasible - however you look at that, your diesel costs are going to be significant.

.... and the other thing that will come into play is natural drainage - that too is going to play a role on much re-filling you will have to do while the crop grows.

[DagonKhan]

So 4 hours per day sounds quite feasible - however you look at that, your diesel costs are going to be significant.

Agreed, it's something I'm trying to tackle head on, hence the genset and electric pump idea.

I'm interested to learn more about these pto pumps though, you mentioned a smaller 8" one in one of your posts above, you couldn't give me any clues as to where I might find out a bit more about them could you? Maybe a manufacturers name or suchlike? I'd like to investigate all options if I can and I'm not having a lot of luck right now.

[Maizefarmer]

Using AC electricity from the national network to pump water is 20% - 30% cheaper than using diesel.

However, using your own gennie to produce electricity to drive an electric pump is not efficient - it will work out at about 25% more than using deiseldriven pump!!!

.... the problem lies in the inefficiency associated with small scale conversion of diesel power to AC power.