Fixing A Baton To A Wall

[Daffy D]

I want to make a “bunk” bed for our 4 year old to sleep in. We don’t have room for actual free standing bunk beds so I though I’d build a single bed attached to the wall leaving room below for play area and storage.

Easy enough I thought, my brain momentarily time warped back to farangland where walls are made of solid brick and then I remembered the walls here are made from those hollow cement blocks.

I had thought of using those RawlBolts but figure the expansion of the metal fixture would shatter the already crumbly cement block.

The other thought that comes to mind is drill a hole in the wall and bang in section of wooden broom handle (can you get wooden broom handles in LOS?) and fix the baton with coach screws.

The thinking behind this being that the wood “plug” would not be likely to shatter the cement block.

I also thought of pumping some sort of mastic adhesive into the screw hole to give extra strength but don’t know if this sort of stuff is available.

Any thoughts ideas or personal experiences of fitting batons to this kind of wall most welcome.

[silverhawk_usa]

I recently moved into a new (rental) home and found it to have many problems. One of which is outside fluorescent lights attached to poles and bolted into the surrounding cement walls. Exactly as you state, they used "Rawlbolts" as you pictured and the concrete has just shattered around the holes. 2 out of 4 are just hanging by one remaining bolt and the wires. I don't know the solution to your problem but I may try your wood insert idea.

I will watch this topic as the answer to your problem is probably also an answer to mine. Sorry I can't be of help.

[Rimmer]

The steel rawlbolts that people mistakenly use here are no good with sub standard blocks used here. As you say they crumble the block.

There is a range of screws/bolts available here that look like the last one in your picture. They are usually bright cadmium plated and come in all lengths, instead of trying to plug and tap them into the wall as you would normally you simply hammer them straight in. Very strong anchor in the wall. made I would guess for this market.

We have used them on red brick a lot but can't remember how they work on cinder block.

A number 10 or 12 plastic plug with 3" appropriate screws should hold pretty well on cinder block I just put up a heavy tool board on a cinder block wall and used number 10 plastic plugs and number 10 screws.

Another solution which may not be practical for you is to use the larger size nail gun made for concrete, this drives a

1 1/2 pin straight in the block with such force that you can never pull it out. on heavy battens it will not be problem but on thin wood it will drive the nail right through the wood. Maybe you know a friendly contractor that has a compressor and one of these guns.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Rimmer

[longball53098]

Maybe if the wall has hollow places you could use the old style "toggle" bolt or "butterfly" bolt. Requires a rather large hole to insert but it won't pull out.

[Pink Mist]

what's on the other side of the wall?

[Dave the Dude]

what's on the other side of the wall?

GOOD QUESTION. drill straight through the wall and use threaded rods cut to size with bolts/washers both sides or if the wall is really weak, battons both sides. SORTED.

Dave

[Pink Mist]

was thinking 6mm steel plate outside and batons inside for bed, but that's the way I would do it if it was an outside wall or it didnt matter

[Daffy D]

Thanks for all your replies and suggestions. Unfortunately the other side of the wall is tiled bathroom so can’t go all the way through.

The batons will be aprox 3 x 1 1/2 so a nail gun would do the trick. I have used Hilti guns in UK with good results but that was into brick and even iron, don’t know if it would work on these cement blocks. Where would I get one anyway?

Been having a look around other houses and seems the local way to fix things to the wall (though not a bunk) is with a wooden plug and six inch nail.

There is a new Home Pro open recently in Krabi so on our next visit for the 90 day reporting will have a look round there to see what’s available.

In the meantime keep the suggestions coming

Thanks.

[Pink Mist]

chemical fixings, ramset manufacture them, go for a mortar joint

[thatguy]

I've used vertical furring strips. ( ripped down to 1x2 or 1x3 from 1x8 at the lumber yard ). Anchored to the wall with the plastic plugs, gorilla glue, and screws. The strips carry most of your weight to the floor, and any minor torque is spread over the screws.

[technocracy]

Raw Plugs should do the job without any hassle.

People seem to think you need great whopping screws and plugs for strength . . . just put more screws across the baton. If you drill carefully the blocks shouldn't shatter also there should be a thick enough layer of cement skim to keep it a tight fit.

Size 8 plugs with 1 1/2 in screws should be plenty - put say 8 plugs and screws in and it'll be stronger than you need. If your concerned about it then put upright batons at each end and in the middle, screw these upright to the wall in a similar manner and then put a couple of screws through the horizontal into the uprights.

If you know the height of the block that the wall is made from you can rough guess the placement of the solid line of cement holding the blocks together - if you get the plugs into that then you'll have no worries whatsoever.

Or if you trust it. . . No More Nails. . . . - but you could always plug it and use No More Nails.

Edit: The 'six inch nails' that they use are specific carbon steel concrete nails. They will do the job also but don't have the grip of a plug. Nails are often overlooked for screws when a good old trusty nail will often do a better job.

Edited July 16, 2008 by technocracy

[Dave the Dude]

Raw Plugs should do the job without any hassle.

People seem to think you need great whopping screws and plugs for strength Thai wall are crap so bigger plugs&scews are sensible although I do agree with you re massive anchors . . . just put more screws across the baton. If you drill carefully the blocks shouldn't shatter also there should be a thick enough layer of cement skim to keep it a tight fit.

Size 8 plugs with 1 1/2 in screws should be plenty The batons will be aprox 3 x 1 1/2, So whats going to hold them? Fresh Air and Buddha - put say 8 plugs and screws in and it'll be stronger than you need. If your concerned about it then put upright batons at each end and in the middle, screw these upright to the wall in a similar manner and then put a couple of screws through the horizontal into the uprights.

If you know the height of the block that the wall is made from you can rough guess the placement of the solid line of cement holding the blocks together - if you get the plugs into that then you'll have no worries whatsoever. Thai's dont even use a level so I would'nt bother with this, too much. Drill screw sized holes in wood, if plugs dont hold there, try again. No problem

Or if you trust it. . . No More Nails. . . . - but you could always plug it and use No More Nails. When was the last time you saw that in LOS then? but good idea WITH screw/plugs

Dave

[technocracy]

People seem to think you need great whopping screws and plugs for strength Thai wall are crap so bigger plugs&scews are sensible although I do agree with you re massive anchors

Erm why bigger plugs? Bigger the plug the longer it is so more chance of it being in the void and not gripping.

The batons will be aprox 3 x 1 1/2, So whats going to hold them? Fresh Air and Buddha

Well firstly I'd sink them half way into the wood so 3/4in of the screw would go into the wall - but really the baton doesn't need be more than 1in thick. I put up a using stud wall which I only use 2in thick wood. Used size 10 plugs and 2 1/2 in (10s) screws put 5 plug in the 3 metre and they are solid as a rock.

Thai's dont even use a level so I would'nt bother with this, too much. Drill screw sized holes in wood, if plugs dont hold there, try again. No problem

True but the fact is you've got more of a possibility of hitting solid cement.

When was the last time you saw that in LOS then? but good idea WITH screw/plugs

When I last purchased it from Udon Thai Home pro - used it to attached the handrails I made to a metal balcony rail since the balcony has glass in it so could put a screw underneath.

Dave

As I said before people seem to think that they need huge screws & plugs and lots of them for strength - the fact is you don't. If the struts on the bed in the right place the load on the baton will be spread and minimal. Personally if I was making if would make the bed free standing as a frame THEN attach it to the wall.

The walls in Laos are of just as crumbly but I've never had any problems attaching things.

[Daffy D]

Thanks for all suggestions I’m still open to ideas.

I agree that possible I’m over engineering the fixings but I have visions of our kid and some of her friends bouncing around on the bunk.

“technocracy” The free standing idea screwed to the wall is something I had thought of but want to try to avoid.

[elkangorito]

was thinking 6mm steel plate outside and batons inside for bed, but that's the way I would do it if it was an outside wall or it didnt matter

This is the way I'd do it too, if possible.

Many others seem to think that the more anchors you use, the better. As an electrician, my experience with these type of walls is quite simple...you can't expect the anchor to tolerate any substantial force. The concrete is not dense enough.

Then again, go ahead & use the 470 anchors & "glue". It won't be long before you will be building a free standing set of bunks.

[mikethevigoman]

I knocked a nail in the wall to hang a picture on, my first hit with the hammer knocked a hole clean throught the wall ! when i did get the nail in it went through and we were able to hang a picture in the adjoining room also,.reminds me of a joke,. i wouldnt say the walls in our house are thin,but i opened our oven door the other day and the man next door was dipping his bread in our gravy !

[percy2]

What covering is on the cement block?

Are you going to have supporting columns on the outside corners of the bed or use a cantilever system?

Cheers

[Daffy D]

What covering is on the cement block?

Are you going to have supporting columns on the outside corners of the bed or use a cantilever system?

Cheers

The cement block wall is rendered with a thin coat of cement mix. I have put up some shelves using regular plastic rawlpug system No.8 screws and that was OK though a couple of times the drill just went straight through but still just enough left for the plastic plug to hold and screw to bite.

The wall where I want to put the bunk is 10ft across. It’s not a very big room. My idea for the bunk is really a giant 2ft wide shelf fixed at the back and on the walls at the side. This would give me a 10ft long 2ft wide “bed” I really want to try and avoid any supporting columns as this would restrict placing of furniture flush to the wall and take up more room space.

As the observant may have noticed this would be far too long for just a kid’s bed. The bed would only be about half the length and the rest of the “shelf” used for toys and general storage.

[elkangorito]

You may like to try the below links for appropriate fasteners.

http://www.ramset.com.au/public/article/sh...=3&menuNo=0

http://www.ramset.com.au/public/Article/sh...=3&menuNo=0

http://www.ramset.com.au/default.asp?menuI...=9&menuNo=1

I am still of the opinion that the load that you wish to place on the wall is too great for the block & as a consequence, may cause damage. Free standing bunks attached to the wall is the ultimate solution.