Solar Power

[AgentSmith]

Guessing the amount of kWh solar panels produce in our nice sunny climate I would say it takes about ten years to earn back your investment. On the very long term it is of course best to invest in a system that covers your whole power consumption because well in a decade you really start earning money.

It's by the way a bad idea to disconnect the grid because that is the perfect 'battery' for the moments that electricity production is higher than consumption. That is if your meter is able to turn backwards so you get money for your energy. Old fashioned meters with a rotating disc inside are perfect. The only thing I am not sure about is if the Thai grid is actually suited for this but why wouldn't it be?

I would love to invest in solar power but I simply don't have the means. But once a year I check what's out there on the market and if one day they start producing panels for a tenth of the current price than we're talking business. And probably also the end of many power plants but that would only be a blessing.

Edited January 31, 2011 by AgentSmith

[richard10365]

This company is in Chiang Mai.

http://www.abotrading.co.th/

They are very knowledgeable and they do speak English.

[RogerD]

What about solar hot water? Is there a supplier in Chiang Mai someone can recommend?

[cloudhopper]

What about solar hot water? Is there a supplier in Chiang Mai someone can recommend?

The link provided in the post before yours answers that question. Also there is a place called Home Mall on the outer ring road that has a system for around 55k I have been using for some time with good results. TV member Pond Life is reportedly looking into one in the 40k price range maybe he will report here...

[Naam]

Guessing the amount of kWh solar panels produce in our nice sunny climate I would say it takes about ten years to earn back your investment. On the very long term it is of course best to invest in a system that covers your whole power consumption because well in a decade you really start earning money.

with a photovoltaic system in Thailand which covers all your power consumption you don't earn a single Satang not in a decade nor in a century based on prevailing conditions. neither is the investment subsidised nor can you feed any surplus into the grid (as opposed to some other countries). the initial cost of a system is presently prohibitively expensive (i am closely following the market since six years). that even applies to a very modest home without aircons, pool pump, deep well pump, big fridge/freezer and other high demand gadgets.

without feed from the grid (whenever applicable/required) you are totally lost if you don't invest in rather expensive battery storage, inverter, switch gear, etc. battery storage is not only expensive but the batteries have a limited life time and have to be replaced every few years.

p.s. try the search function. half a dozen threads concerning solar power with a lot of detailed information and rational advice exist. alas... the rational advice kills fairy tales and wet dreams quite fast.

:jap:

[dave2]

agent smith

re ... Guessing the amount of kWh solar panels produce in our nice sunny climate I would say it takes about ten years to earn back your investment

so do you think this panel will outive the street stall ... or the other way round ?

just interested ... dave2 : )

[AgentSmith]

youd have to run atleast a 400-600 watt system to run a TV at the very least, if you have a washing machine and even a drier, better get a 2000 watt system...god forbid if you want ac, these 3 appliances are the main consumers.

a 45 watt system is good for nothing more than powering lights and maybe a laptop and fan.

the typical high power panel comes in at around 220 watts, so for a 2000 watt system witha steady output youd want to get 10.

in the US these go for $500 each from retail installers, or you can get them for $300 each from places like costco.

so your looking at $3000-$5000 baht just for the panels not including dc to ac invertors, battery bank and wiring.

How long will it take you to recover 100,000-150,000 baht in electric bills ?

3.8 years to be precisely. Not bad, not bad at all. Now where do we get these things in Bangkok?

[Dellboy218]

Solar water heaters. For who ever asked, Global used to have them for around 30k.

The last thing I saw on solar developments was a very thin plastic solar panel that was so flexible it could be rolled up. It is apparently much cheaper to produce than the silicon types.

A house paint has also been developed with produces electricity. Perhaps someone has details on this paint. It might even keep the cats off the roof! I would like to use solar but at the prices here..........When governments get serious and take taxes off then they might find people take it seriously. It maybe one of a number of ways to save on power generation which might save them the difficult question of Nukes.

[AgentSmith]

Don't know for sure yet but if you can earn your panels back within 4 years than that's not so expensive is it?

Don't wait for any of the oil hungry governments out there to do anything for you when it comes to renewable energy. We have to take those measures into our own hands. Solar energy isn't by far as expensive as they often want us to believe. Fortunately more and more people discover this and there are even pretty good private solar projects out there to set an example. Unfortunately I am not so crafty otherwise building my own solar panel park would be a nice idea.

To put things a little more in perspective: the sun delivers a constant power of 89000 TW to the Earth's surface of which mankind needs a mere 15. That does not sound too difficult...

Edited March 29, 2011 by AgentSmith

[Dellboy218]

Don't know for sure yet but if you can earn your panels back within 4 years than that's not so expensive is it?

Don't wait for any of the oil hungry governments out there to do anything for you when it comes to renewable energy. We have to take those measures into our own hands. Solar energy isn't by far as expensive as they often want us to believe. Fortunately more and more people discover this and there are even pretty good private solar projects out there to set an example. Unfortunately I am not so crafty otherwise building my own solar panel park would be a nice idea.

Well, the operative word in your reply is 'IF'. It depends on how reliable the supply is going to be and whether it will be enough to meet demand. I have no doubt the huge strides in LED's in recent years means we will be dumping 'energy saving' lights for LED lighting within the next few year which will help. The most cost effective way at present is to save where possible. Personally, I would ban the standard cheap uncorrected fluorescent light ballasts with a corrected or electronic type, that would save 60% per lamp to start with. What I want is that paint, the roof wants painting anyway.

[AgentSmith]

Don't know for sure yet but if you can earn your panels back within 4 years than that's not so expensive is it?

Don't wait for any of the oil hungry governments out there to do anything for you when it comes to renewable energy. We have to take those measures into our own hands. Solar energy isn't by far as expensive as they often want us to believe. Fortunately more and more people discover this and there are even pretty good private solar projects out there to set an example. Unfortunately I am not so crafty otherwise building my own solar panel park would be a nice idea.

Well, the operative word in your reply is 'IF'. It depends on how reliable the supply is going to be and whether it will be enough to meet demand. I have no doubt the huge strides in LED's in recent years means we will be dumping 'energy saving' lights for LED lighting within the next few year which will help. The most cost effective way at present is to save where possible. Personally, I would ban the standard cheap uncorrected fluorescent light ballasts with a corrected or electronic type, that would save 60% per lamp to start with. What I want is that paint, the roof wants painting anyway.

It's not a very big IF though. What if it turns out it takes 6 years instead of 4, in the long run you would still save a lot of money because after those 6 years your panels would keep delivering for at least another 20 years or so. And it does not matter if they don't deliver enough. You would still be saving money and you can always buy an extra panel later if the first ones don't deliver enough to get rid of the electricity bills. And of course there is that other much more important reason to minimize burning oil fossil fuels...

Edited March 29, 2011 by AgentSmith

[Dellboy218]

Don't know for sure yet but if you can earn your panels back within 4 years than that's not so expensive is it?

Don't wait for any of the oil hungry governments out there to do anything for you when it comes to renewable energy. We have to take those measures into our own hands. Solar energy isn't by far as expensive as they often want us to believe. Fortunately more and more people discover this and there are even pretty good private solar projects out there to set an example. Unfortunately I am not so crafty otherwise building my own solar panel park would be a nice idea.

Well, the operative word in your reply is 'IF'. It depends on how reliable the supply is going to be and whether it will be enough to meet demand. I have no doubt the huge strides in LED's in recent years means we will be dumping 'energy saving' lights for LED lighting within the next few year which will help. The most cost effective way at present is to save where possible. Personally, I would ban the standard cheap uncorrected fluorescent light ballasts with a corrected or electronic type, that would save 60% per lamp to start with. What I want is that paint, the roof wants painting anyway.

It's not a very big IF though. What if it turns out it takes 6 years instead of 4, in the long run you would still save a lot of money because after those 6 years your panels would keep delivering for at least another 20 years or so. And it does not matter if they don't deliver enough. You would still be saving money and you can always buy an extra panel later if the first ones don't deliver enough to get rid of the electricity bills. And of course there is that other much more important reason to minimize burning oil...

Not burning oil? Thats no good, I work for one of the biggest oil companies, where's my bonus coming from? I jest, fat chance of a bonus. Seriously tho, I have been in the electrical industry for 40 years and I do not see those on sale here at present as cost effective. I hope the newer generations will change that. I do not doubt your figures and expectations but I have been around long enough to know that if things can go wrong they will and I want it cheap enough that if the worst happens it will still end up cheaper. I would rather just paint the roof and stick a croc clip at each end!

[AgentSmith]

Well this is not a perfect world so I think you will have to lower your expectations. What do you mean with something going wrong? Do you mean stuff like damage to the panels? Yes that would be a little nightmare but how big is that chance? You can always build some protection around like some kind of cage maybe with thin but strong bars. That maybe costs a few percent of the total power (especially when the cage is big enough so the bars don't cause parts of 100% shade on the panels) but at least your panels won't be destroyed when a rock or a small meteorite happens to land on your rooftop.

Edited March 29, 2011 by AgentSmith

[Dellboy218]

Well this is not a perfect world so I think you will have to lower your expectations. What do you mean with something going wrong? Do you mean stuff like damage to the panels? Yes that would be a little nightmare but how big is that chance? You can always build some protection around like some kind of cage maybe with thin but strong bars. That maybe costs a few percent of the total power (especially when the cage is big enough so the bars don't cause parts of 100% shade on the panels) but at least your panels won't be destroyed when a rock or a small meteorite happens to land on your rooftop.

Whilst reliability rates have improved over the years they are not perfect and of course never will be. There also the control units/inverters to give 220v. I think the idea of space debris is going off topic and therefore time to terminate this discussion.

[LJW]

What about solar hot water? Is there a supplier in Chiang Mai someone can recommend?

I made my own system to heat my pool. Does add some heat, but just enough to keep off the ice

It consists of 1500 feet of water tubing and plastic pipe. Even works on a cold day as today is..

[AgentSmith]

Well this is not a perfect world so I think you will have to lower your expectations. What do you mean with something going wrong? Do you mean stuff like damage to the panels? Yes that would be a little nightmare but how big is that chance? You can always build some protection around like some kind of cage maybe with thin but strong bars. That maybe costs a few percent of the total power (especially when the cage is big enough so the bars don't cause parts of 100% shade on the panels) but at least your panels won't be destroyed when a rock or a small meteorite happens to land on your rooftop.

Whilst reliability rates have improved over the years they are not perfect and of course never will be. There also the control units/inverters to give 220v. I think the idea of space debris is going off topic and therefore time to terminate this discussion.

How big is the chance then that a panel or the inverter brakes down? How much is an inverter on the market these days? And, most debris doesn't come from space. It's called wind and might be a real concern in severe weather conditions.

Edited March 29, 2011 by AgentSmith

[jombom]

youd have to run atleast a 400-600 watt system to run a TV at the very least, if you have a washing machine and even a drier, better get a 2000 watt system...god forbid if you want ac, these 3 appliances are the main consumers.

a 45 watt system is good for nothing more than powering lights and maybe a laptop and fan.

the typical high power panel comes in at around 220 watts, so for a 2000 watt system witha steady output youd want to get 10.

in the US these go for $500 each from retail installers, or you can get them for $300 each from places like costco.

so your looking at $3000-$5000 baht just for the panels not including dc to ac invertors, battery bank and wiring.

How long will it take you to recover 100,000-150,000 baht in electric bills ?

3.8 years to be precisely. Not bad, not bad at all. Now where do we get these things in Bangkok?

It depends on your monthly electric bill. 50 months of 3000 baht is 150,000 baht, obviously.

But what kind of TV needs 600 watts? Mine is 130 watts

[padeakin]

I was just wondering if I could set up a simple system without inefficient and expensive batteries, so it would supplement my existing power at daytime, would this be possible? what would happen if it was producing power but no electrical devices were using the power?

Anyone tried this?

If this is going to be problematic, then how about a panels not connected to the mains circuit but directly powering fans or air conditioning so it only comes on in daylight, that should be simple, or not?

[Dellboy218]

The Amorn shop in the BigC mall on Hang Dong Road had several different solar panels on display last time I was there.

They have been in there for a while, the largest one is 50W(?) I remember the price tag of 10k. There are some new cells coming out that are on plastic not silicone and can be rolled up. There is also a paint that has been developed I read somewhere that dries nto a solar cell. The blurb I read on the plastic solar cells said they would be significantly cheaper than the silicone ones.

[KRS1]

In reply to Coludhopper, that is where his head is, mouth in fast forward and brain in reverse, it annoys me to read comments like this when thay do not have a clue about what they are talking about what so ever,Photovoltic the 4th generation to day are now 96% efficent and they do not need sunlight what so ever they still produce a very high output even on the darkest of days as to day the only rely on UV and radiatoin rays from the day light, they do not require battries, charger.Solar is the only way to go.

Photovoltaic panels are very unproductive in the rainy half of the year here in the North. To use them for a minimalist (lights, fan, refrigeration) domestic setup requires an inverter/charger as well as a huge set of deep cycle batteries. As already pointed out electricity is still priced way below it's value at the moment and cost-wise there is just no comparison - you could never recoup your capital costs with solar.

I think the solar water heaters are a good choice here however, and would be far easier to home brew a system.

Solar is NO WHERE near 96% efficient, this is complete bullshit.

50% if your lucky.

CSV -concentrated solar voltaic, has a higher efficiency, but its patented so you wont see these mainstream.

[KRS1]

I was just wondering if I could set up a simple system without inefficient and expensive batteries, so it would supplement my existing power at daytime, would this be possible? what would happen if it was producing power but no electrical devices were using the power?

Anyone tried this?

If this is going to be problematic, then how about a panels not connected to the mains circuit but directly powering fans or air conditioning so it only comes on in daylight, that should be simple, or not?

Yes its possible, theres no need to tie into the grid. But a system that can run air conditioning is going to have to be quite big.

The power coming out of the panels is DC, you'd have to use DC appliances or use an invertor to get AC power for standard home appliances.

[daoyai]

I lived "off the grid" for 30 years, I had solar panels, batteries, inverter and a small generator. The beauty of this system is that you can live where power lines are not available or where the cost of connecting to the grid is high and/or the electricity costs are very high.

There are few things you can run directly from the panels (unless you have a huge array) as the charge is low and variable. The panels charge the deep cycle batteries. The batteries can last up to 8 years if they are well cared for. Refrigeation, and cooking is done with LP gas.

I think here in Thailand, at the present time, the "grid" is more affordable ....... At many of the remote mountain villages it is common to see solar panels next to the satelite dish. A couple panels and batteries, a cheap inverter and the village has lights at night and TV (for better or worse).

[AgentSmith]

Does anyone know reliable suppliers of panels in Thailand? There is a lot of difference in quality of panels and converters, and probably in price too. But panels becoming cheaper every month it is by now possible to earn back your investment within 8 to 10 years with the current Thai price for electricity on the grid.

PV setups are relatively easy for self-installation too now. Just looked into current available systems in Holland and it turns out that all you need are the panels, DC cables, metal rack depending on roof type and a DC-to-AC converter. With our total power consumption of around 5300 kWh per year the expected investment lies around 5200 euros or 211.000 baht. For people without aircon in their homes this price would be substantially lower.

Learned something worth knowing though when you start building your own power plant. Make sure that when you supply to the grid the converter switches off automatically when the grid power goes out. Otherwise there will still be power on cables which the power company thinks are safe to handle. In Holland such a feature for converters is mandatory, not so sure about Thailand though.

[Lizard2010]

Does anyone know reliable suppliers of panels in Thailand? There is a lot of difference in quality of panels and converters, and probably in price too. But panels becoming cheaper every month it is by now possible to earn back your investment within 8 to 10 years with the current Thai price for electricity on the grid.

PV setups are relatively easy for self-installation too now. Just looked into current available systems in Holland and it turns out that all you need are the panels, DC cables, metal rack depending on roof type and a DC-to-AC converter. With our total power consumption of around 5300 kWh per year the expected investment lies around 5200 euros or 211.000 baht. For people without aircon in their homes this price would be substantially lower.

Learned something worth knowing though when you start building your own power plant. Make sure that when you supply to the grid the converter switches off automatically when the grid power goes out. Otherwise there will still be power on cables which the power company thinks are safe to handle. In Holland such a feature for converters is mandatory, not so sure about Thailand though.

There were some posts in the Bangkok Forum last year or the year before.

So do a search there and you migh find some information.

[cloudhopper]

With our total power consumption of around 5300 kWh per year the expected investment lies around 5200 euros or 211.000 baht.

That's about 15kWh/day and it would take about 5kW of solar panel to provide that on average. That seems like a good price...

[AgentSmith]

With our total power consumption of around 5300 kWh per year the expected investment lies around 5200 euros or 211.000 baht.

That's about 15kWh/day and it would take about 5kW of solar panel to provide that on average. That seems like a good price...

Actually with the high solar energy in Thailand we only need a 3.5 kW-peak installation.

The production here should be almost double that of in Holland which entirely compensates for the low energy price on the grid (about half of the Dutch price). Dutch investment today lies around €1.50 per Wp when self-installed and I even read reports of people of finding deals well below that (even under a euro). The market seems to be gaining more momentum. A few more years and PV panels might reach critical mass.

It's quite annoying that Thai suppliers don't advertise their panel prices. The brand and model information is also often left out on their websites. The brand is just as important to know as the price because there are big differences in quality. I sent an email to two companies and hope to have an answer soon. Somehow I fear they ask way more than the market price. But I'm done with haggling so I might try to get them from abroad.

Edited February 7, 2012 by AgentSmith

[cloudhopper]

Actually with the high solar energy in Thailand we only need a 3.5 kW-peak installation.

Well for 15kWh that seems very optimistic to me from my experience on a boat here. Up here in CM it's pretty much overcast in the daytime during the SW monsoon. Maybe with tracking but last time I looked you couldn't get 3.5kW of tracking solar panels, a charge controller, batteries and an inverter for anywhere close to 211k Baht but maybe prices have dropped. BTW solar panels have no import duty but don't know about related gear. They also have a power buy-back program here (until they don't anyway) but good luck with the paperwork. Also at least in the US if you do the power sell back you are not allowed to have onsite storage and must buy from the utility when there is no surplus generated.

AFAIk from a cost standpoint solar is still much worse than the grid here in LOS.

edit - for 15kWh/day you need 60kWh of nominal battery capacity if you want a 5 year service life - that's ~1200Ah @ 48V so using local 6V 200Ah golf cart batteries (probably the most economical alternative) you would need 48 T105 (~4000 Baht last time I looked) batteries in series parallel; do the math...

Edited February 7, 2012 by cloudhopper

[SymS]

I've been to the industrial fair in Chiang Mai last week where I bought a cheap solar toy on one stand where the company provided solar panels. They displayed the kit prices (battery + solar panel + inverter) but I can not remember them. The company name is Engineo (website: engineo.co.th).

[AgentSmith]

Actually with the high solar energy in Thailand we only need a 3.5 kW-peak installation.

Well for 15kWh that seems very optimistic to me from my experience on a boat here. Up here in CM it's pretty much overcast in the daytime during the SW monsoon. Maybe with tracking but last time I looked you couldn't get 3.5kW of tracking solar panels, a charge controller, batteries and an inverter for anywhere close to 211k Baht but maybe prices have dropped. BTW solar panels have no import duty but don't know about related gear. They also have a power buy-back program here (until they don't anyway) but good luck with the paperwork. Also at least in the US if you do the power sell back you are not allowed to have onsite storage and must buy from the utility when there is no surplus generated.

AFAIk from a cost standpoint solar is still much worse than the grid here in LOS.

edit - for 15kWh/day you need 60kWh of nominal battery capacity if you want a 5 year service life - that's ~1200Ah @ 48V so using local 6V 200Ah golf cart batteries (probably the most economical alternative) you would need 48 T105 (~4000 Baht last time I looked) batteries in series parallel; do the math...

First of all, it is going to be a grid-connected system so no batteries involved here. I discovered after many more hours of research that also in Europe prices vary a lot so you have to take your time comparing shops. However I found a decent Delta Solivia 4 kWp inverter for a little over 700 euro. Also found 240 Wp Yingli panels (Chinese top quality brand) for 320 euro a piece. 14 panels (3360 Wp) and the Solivia inverter would add up to € 5194 or € 4365 excl 19% VAT. This is € 1.55 (€ 1.30) per Wp. I'm sure you can find cheaper panels but it's worth the quality as they are expected to last at least 25 years with minimal loss of efficiency.

Such a system would mean a total panel surface of around 20 square meters. According to sources like solar irradiance calculator this should generate on average 14 kWh per day which is our daily usage. We pay around 2100 baht per month to the power company which means, assuming the price for grid electricity does not rise the next 10-20 years, an earn back period of 100 months or 8.4 years. If none of the parts have to be replaced after the warranty period this means free energy between 8.4 and 25 years after the purchase (probably longer).

I actually have in mind to start with 6 or 8 panels and buy more later, just to spread out the investment. Now all I have to do is find retail stores in Thailand that actually advertise their prices out in the open. All I found so far are crappy websites with elusive info. I don't even consider to import because I know Thais customs can be a pain in the ass.

Edited February 8, 2012 by AgentSmith

[AgentSmith]

Something not so nice is the much higher price of a mixed pv system meaning a combination of on-grid off-grid. Panels are not allowed to feed into the grid when there is a power cut for obvious safety reasons. This is called islanding and explains the mandatory anti-islanding feature on commercially available inverters. This also means you cannot fall back on your own production during the day: no grid power also means no locally produced power. Now there are systems which can keep producing while still ensuring that delivery to the grid stops. But that means a power cut essentially renders the on-grid system into an off-grid system and off-grid means a hell lot more necessary stuff to ensure a stable enough delivery of power. E.g. on a cloudy day the AC voltage could otherwise be way too unstable and shoot out of normal range. A battery backup pack is needed to compensate for power instability plus there are necessary boxes to cut off and reconnect the grid automatically within milliseconds. This technical feature means thousands of euros extra investment and it is just not worth the few days a year the power actually goes out here.

The fact that the panels are just lying on the roof doing nothing in case of a power cut remains strange to say the least but it is something I will have to live with. Just panels and an inverter alone simply aren't a reliable power source. Using the grid as a stabilizer as well as storage is much less expensive than local energy storage with deep-cycle batteries. Add to this the fact that feeding power into the grid gives way more flexibility since unused power does not get wasted that way. Grid connected systems simply are by far the preferred option for the average household.

Edited February 8, 2012 by AgentSmith