Rubber Tree Farm Prices

[LivNon2396]

Hi everybody... I am a newbie to this forum and to farming but am thinking about giving it a go. I am only 40 and still have some years left to work when I want (if I get off my ass) in International Construction but am kind of burnt out and looking for a change.

I have been reading many, many of the threads and they are very informative and interesting from irrigation,water wheels, rubber trees, growing makua to jatropha farming.

I know that there are many variables to land prices to include location and utilities.

Lately my GF and I have been looking at some rubber tree farms that keep popping up for sale in the area between Chong Mek and Buntharic near the Lao border. The prices seem to vary with what you get.

1) 32 rai for 2.5m THB with 3-4 & 5 year old trees mixed with 251 and 600 clones, not very large in diameter for their ages. No electric, 5 k from road, no water and sandy soil. Sor Por Kor paper.

2) 20 rai for 1.9m THB with 3 or 4 year old 600 clones. Next to road with electric and very little water running through the property. There were only 5 or 6 trees next to the small stream that were about 15cm in diameter the rest were small. Sandy soil and no Sor Por Kor paper yet (they say you just pay 2.5k THB to have the land measured and make paper in new name, )

3) The one we like. 28 rai with 5.5 year old 600 clones for 2.73m THB. 2 kilometers from the main road, good dirt road to the property, no electric, fast running stream (even in the dry season they say) that seperates the property. The soil is seems to be good, not sandy and the family walked around on it saying how good it was and how much air was in the soil so don't know what that all means. On 2 sides of the property there are existing rubber farms that they are cutting and the trees do not look no were as nice, one side is a cassava field and the other is an old mango orchard with large trees of 15 rai (they want 40k THB per rai). There is also a small stilted open house constructed and a block smoking shed with area for rolling the sheets plus cups and wires. These trees have never been tapped before and I have seen much smaller trees around being exploited. Sor Por Kor paper as well.

Everyone says the land prices are going up and up but how hard is it to find someone willing to pay the prices and buy the property in the event you want to sell without taking a lose? i have that problem in the states now with a house I bought 2 years ago at the end of the boom and now if I could sell, it is worth 30% less. Buy high, sell low

I know a foriegner that has bought over 500 rai of land. Some with new trees planted and some of tapping age. One lot was over 240 rai of tappable trees for under 45k THB 2 years ago, no electric and 5 k from the main road with a stream or 2 on the property. They are getting 400-500 pans a cutting from this property. He was saying that Thais can only own 50 rai a person, I did not know what he was talking about until I read up on the land titles so I am assuming that this is all Sor Por Kor land that he has bought and put in the various family members names.

My questions are:

1- What should the going price per rai be for mature, tappable rubber trees depending on locations and accessability?

2- With using 289kg/rai/yr at 100 THB/Kilo - 40% for the tappers cut I calculate almost a 18% anual return on investment (that is if the land/me is still around to get the initial investment back). Am I way off base with these figures? The GF says 289 is way low and momma gets so and so almost double if she cuts all her trees. I can not see paying almost 100k THB per rai just to sit on the property for another 3 years before being able to make some money back.

3- I would like to intercrop the mature trees but with what? Have read about lady finger banannas, cinnamon, chillis, pineapples but these are only good for the first 4-5 years before the canopy closes. What would produce well in low light conditions in a mature rubber farm?

4- Sor Por Kor is what I am told all the land in this area is and no one has chanode. What I read it can only be transfered to family. When I question this I get "can, no problem, make my name okay". Am I even Baah to be thinking about shelling out 2.8m THB on this property???

5- Trees are supposed to be 7 years old before being tapped. I have seen many a small trees being tapped so ultimately they are only hurting their own wallets later. What is the diameter/circumference a tree in Thailand should be tapped for a 600 clone tree. I read 50cm in circumference 1.3 meters from the ground but this was trees in Malaysia.

Well hopefully from all of my ramblings everyone doesn't think that I am tooooo crazy and will welcome me to the forum. Thanks for listening and I appreciate all the advise that can be given.

Thanks,

Jim

[Tigs]

Jim

You mention that the land is Sor Por Kor'. That is why it is so cheap. My advice to you would be do not touch this land with a barge pole. SPK land is land allotted by the 'Land reform Committee'. Land with this documentation cannot be bought or sold, and may only be transferred to the direct heirs of the person who holds it. You could get badly bitten with land like this. Leave it until you find land with a chanote title deed, but expect to pay a lot more for it. Good luck.

[Basecamp]

Hi Jim,

What I noticed with this forum is that when you ask a lot of questions at one time, none of them get answered. I think it's just too much effort to fully answer you and that is why you've not made a successful post. That's just my perception seeing things like this before.

I'll chime in with a couple of comments. The 50 rai/family member is true for SPK land. It can't be bought or sold officially (but is bought and sold regularily). You (your wife) buy the land, the land dept (for a fee) puts it in your wife's name and her sister's name etc and you keep the paper. Someday it'll be changed to Nor Sor 3 Gaw, maybe 20 years later or even more, or next year or whenever depending on the area and the development in that area.

The official 289KG/rai is the average so that tells you it's possible to get a lot more than that. Remeber some of the RT plantations are on land with poor soil, in areas with less water, on land that is sloped etc so that will drive the average down. If your land has good rainfall/water availability, good soil, flat etc, your return will be much more than 289.

The 100K Ba/Rai sounds a bit high but with the price of rubber going up, maybe it's ok, you can do the math and decide if it's appropriate. Other alternative is to buy land at 15K/rai and plant your own rubber farm. Will take 7 years to start getting profit but it's a lot cheaper going in. You of course have 7 years of expenses: weeding, fertilizter, plowing etc. In the early years you can cover these costs by growing Cassava/Tapioca until the canopy closes.

Remember it's not as easy as just buying the land and taking a profit. There are all kinds of ways to lose out. Thieves stealing rubber from your trees, stealing your plants, you are not the tapper, you don't even take the rubber from the tapper, there are ways for you to be ripped off and these people know the ways. Not saying everyone is like that but it happens all the time and you should be aware of it.

If you live in the area and know everybody around the land, it's also safer.

Good luck.............

[LivNon2396]

Hi Jim,

What I noticed with this forum is that when you ask a lot of questions at one time, none of them get answered. I think it's just too much effort to fully answer you and that is why you've not made a successful post. That's just my perception seeing things like this before.

I'll chime in with a couple of comments. The 50 rai/family member is true for SPK land. It can't be bought or sold officially (but is bought and sold regularily). You (your wife) buy the land, the land dept (for a fee) puts it in your wife's name and her sister's name etc and you keep the paper. Someday it'll be changed to Nor Sor 3 Gaw, maybe 20 years later or even more, or next year or whenever depending on the area and the development in that area.

The official 289KG/rai is the average so that tells you it's possible to get a lot more than that. Remeber some of the RT plantations are on land with poor soil, in areas with less water, on land that is sloped etc so that will drive the average down. If your land has good rainfall/water availability, good soil, flat etc, your return will be much more than 289.

The 100K Ba/Rai sounds a bit high but with the price of rubber going up, maybe it's ok, you can do the math and decide if it's appropriate. Other alternative is to buy land at 15K/rai and plant your own rubber farm. Will take 7 years to start getting profit but it's a lot cheaper going in. You of course have 7 years of expenses: weeding, fertilizter, plowing etc. In the early years you can cover these costs by growing Cassava/Tapioca until the canopy closes.

Remember it's not as easy as just buying the land and taking a profit. There are all kinds of ways to lose out. Thieves stealing rubber from your trees, stealing your plants, you are not the tapper, you don't even take the rubber from the tapper, there are ways for you to be ripped off and these people know the ways. Not saying everyone is like that but it happens all the time and you should be aware of it.

If you live in the area and know everybody around the land, it's also safer.

Good luck.............

Thank you for taking the time to answer a few of my many questions. I fugured I was overwhelming with all the questions but did not want to post multiple questions and start to sound like a pain in the ass.

SPK land I am being told is bought and sold all the time by Thai people. When I explain that it can not be sold especially to someone not FAMILY related and someone from the sellers family can come back and protest it, I am told I don't know what I am talking about. This is becoming a very big headache for me. I could walk away from the investment if something did happen between us in the future but what I am not willing to happen is having someone being able to come back and take the land from her and then there goes the land and my money.

I am being told:

1-There is no land with titles other that SPK and they will make latter.

2-There will be a paper made that says my GF is FAMILY.

3-A farang's wife said that property over 1m thb you have to pay 100k thb. So I am assuming that is a 10% tax but not sure if that is on the total purchase price or they did something under the table.

When my GF said "x farang bought land and put it in family members name (not related to previous land owner) and all the Thais buy SPK land". The sparks started to fly after I told her that "Thai people like to cheat other people and they have nothing to loose if Farang buys SPK land and that X Farang does not live here and does not now about SPK land regulations and ramafications".

X farang buys SPK land puts in wifes family names (not related to land owner/leasee) family works land makes money at 40% farang get 60% and shoulders all the associated cost to run the farm. Mr. X Thai comes along and contests the sale of the SPK land by his immediate family member. Goes to Thai court, court awards it back to said family. X farang is out of invested money, x Thai family out of land but made money while it lasted and Som Na Nah farang.

What is the process and costs of transfering the SPK paper into another family members (allegedly) name?

The "up to you" and "don't buy it" is flying while writing this post so any info ASAP is greatly appreciated in hopes to make the bahn "jai yen yen".

Thanks,

LivNon2396 (for how long?)

[jamescollister]

Hello Jim

I think you would be better to slow down a bit and get to know a lot more about how things work out here. It is a mine field, with locals living by unwritten laws that I will never understand. As an example I have some very dodgy land and when I asked the what if question the answer was that if someone tried to take the land back they would be taken into the jungle and shot.{ End of story}

Alot of what you can and can't do depends on the status of your wife and her family. who they know and how many favours they are owed. So just stand back and remember you are in Thai time, everything gets done it just takes a long time.

JIM

[Pakeha]

Hi Jim,

What I noticed with this forum is that when you ask a lot of questions at one time, none of them get answered. I think it's just too much effort to fully answer you and that is why you've not made a successful post. That's just my perception seeing things like this before.

I'll chime in with a couple of comments. The 50 rai/family member is true for SPK land. It can't be bought or sold officially (but is bought and sold regularily). You (your wife) buy the land, the land dept (for a fee) puts it in your wife's name and her sister's name etc and you keep the paper. Someday it'll be changed to Nor Sor 3 Gaw, maybe 20 years later or even more, or next year or whenever depending on the area and the development in that area.

The official 289KG/rai is the average so that tells you it's possible to get a lot more than that. Remeber some of the RT plantations are on land with poor soil, in areas with less water, on land that is sloped etc so that will drive the average down. If your land has good rainfall/water availability, good soil, flat etc, your return will be much more than 289.

The 100K Ba/Rai sounds a bit high but with the price of rubber going up, maybe it's ok, you can do the math and decide if it's appropriate. Other alternative is to buy land at 15K/rai and plant your own rubber farm. Will take 7 years to start getting profit but it's a lot cheaper going in. You of course have 7 years of expenses: weeding, fertilizter, plowing etc. In the early years you can cover these costs by growing Cassava/Tapioca until the canopy closes.

Remember it's not as easy as just buying the land and taking a profit. There are all kinds of ways to lose out. Thieves stealing rubber from your trees, stealing your plants, you are not the tapper, you don't even take the rubber from the tapper, there are ways for you to be ripped off and these people know the ways. Not saying everyone is like that but it happens all the time and you should be aware of it.

If you live in the area and know everybody around the land, it's also safer.

Good luck.............

Thank you for taking the time to answer a few of my many questions. I fugured I was overwhelming with all the questions but did not want to post multiple questions and start to sound like a pain in the ass.

SPK land I am being told is bought and sold all the time by Thai people. When I explain that it can not be sold especially to someone not FAMILY related and someone from the sellers family can come back and protest it, I am told I don't know what I am talking about. This is becoming a very big headache for me. I could walk away from the investment if something did happen between us in the future but what I am not willing to happen is having someone being able to come back and take the land from her and then there goes the land and my money.

I am being told:

1-There is no land with titles other that SPK and they will make latter.

2-There will be a paper made that says my GF is FAMILY.

3-A farang's wife said that property over 1m thb you have to pay 100k thb. So I am assuming that is a 10% tax but not sure if that is on the total purchase price or they did something under the table.

When my GF said "x farang bought land and put it in family members name (not related to previous land owner) and all the Thais buy SPK land". The sparks started to fly after I told her that "Thai people like to cheat other people and they have nothing to loose if Farang buys SPK land and that X Farang does not live here and does not now about SPK land regulations and ramafications".

X farang buys SPK land puts in wifes family names (not related to land owner/leasee) family works land makes money at 40% farang get 60% and shoulders all the associated cost to run the farm. Mr. X Thai comes along and contests the sale of the SPK land by his immediate family member. Goes to Thai court, court awards it back to said family. X farang is out of invested money, x Thai family out of land but made money while it lasted and Som Na Nah farang.

What is the process and costs of transfering the SPK paper into another family members (allegedly) name?

The "up to you" and "don't buy it" is flying while writing this post so any info ASAP is greatly appreciated in hopes to make the bahn "jai yen yen".

Thanks,

LivNon2396 (for how long?)

Hi LivNon.

I don't know anywhere near as much as all you seem to but I've been looking into buying a rubber farm for a few years now (but haven't had the funds). Everytime a piece of land comes up for sale in the area I'm interested in we promptly get a call from Thailand with details. So don't worry if you miss out on a plot because you are not ready. Many a farm is lost over gambling in the small area where we are looking and they seem to come up very regularly.

Now I'm in a position to buy I just want to do it right away as you do. I've posted a spreadsheet you might be keen to work on with me? If a few people contribute it may just be a useful document!

Cheers. And good luck with the jai yen yen!

[LivNon2396]

Hello Jim

I think you would be better to slow down a bit and get to know a lot more about how things work out here. It is a mine field, with locals living by unwritten laws that I will never understand. As an example I have some very dodgy land and when I asked the what if question the answer was that if someone tried to take the land back they would be taken into the jungle and shot.{ End of story}

Alot of what you can and can't do depends on the status of your wife and her family. who they know and how many favours they are owed. So just stand back and remember you are in Thai time, everything gets done it just takes a long time.

JIM

I had a long reply I typed up yesterday but when I hit submit it went way of cyber space, not be seen again. To tired to retype and think about everything I tried to say again.

Sor Por Kor is still a big issue. Is there a link to Thai Land Titles in the Thai Language? How are Thais buying Sor Por Kor land from others that are not related? When Sor Por Kor land is deeded/inheritade to another FAMILY memeber are there applicable taxes since in socalled reality it is unable to be sold?

Thanks,

LivNon2396

[Issangeorge]

Hi, three years ago, my wife (with my money) bought some SPK land. She first paid a small deposit, with the Pia Ban there to witness and then she went to the land office to change the title to her name. She had to wait, I believe it was 30 days, it may have been 3 months, can't remember, while the land office posted that the title was being changed and anyone who had objections should make themselves known. When the title was finally in my wife's name we then paid the rest of the money, again witnessed by the Pia Ban. We still did not get the paper, we had to wait about a year for that. During this time the land office came out and surveyed the land. When we finally got the paper I expected it to be the SPK title, but to my great surprise it was a full red Chanott title.

I would think that after the community has been surveyed to see if there our any claims on the land and the title is in your wife's name, you would then be pretty safe, and no one would be able to come back and claim the land. Why don't you drop Isaan Lawyers who advertise on this form a line, and ask them. I know several people who have used them and they have all been happy. Issangeorge.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Issangeorge

[Notlaw]

Another newbie into the fray but with a twist all the land we have with rubber trees was given to us by my wife's mother as she is getting on a bit and noone else in the family wants to farm it( we give the family a % of the profit so they are OK with the situation and as we have no children of our own the farm goes to the nephews and neices when we peg it).the farm is about 1000 rai near Trat and neither me or my wife are farmers so we are still relying on her mother and her foreman who I suspect is robbing us blind but slowly slowly. I would be interested in hearing about average returns we seem to pay about 50K TB a year per 40 rai on the new plantings( chemicals etc) and as far as I have seen so far returns are 25K per month per 30 Rai which is what we have the workers on at the moment (50-50 split) we have about 200rai of new planting last three years and have Pineapples and Bannana in total about 350 rai of producing rubber trees and the rest invarious states of decay and in need of some TLC. We are moving to the area and my wifes mother will be living with us albeit in her own house on the same property so we will be getting to know the right people in the area. I would be interested to hear about some of the dodges that are being pulled and of course any help with expected returns per rai.

Good luck to one and all, all help much apprciated

Notlaw

[chang35baht]

Notlaw when you can let us know how many rai of trees are being tapped and there approx. age , then we can give you a better idea of the return you should be getting.

Fertilizer prices have went through the roof recently so for 50 rai the cost will be quite high on young trees. 200 grams per tree twice a year+ labour, cutting grass etc. You can do the math.

1000 rai, that`s a lot of land and a lot of work. I wish you the best of luck.

P.S. for 30 rai of trees being tapped you should be getting a lot more than 25k per month. IMHO.

[Notlaw]

Notlaw when you can let us know how many rai of trees are being tapped and there approx. age , then we can give you a better idea of the return you should be getting.

Fertilizer prices have went through the roof recently so for 50 rai the cost will be quite high on young trees. 200 grams per tree twice a year+ labour, cutting grass etc. You can do the math.

1000 rai, that`s a lot of land and a lot of work. I wish you the best of luck.

P.S. for 30 rai of trees being tapped you should be getting a lot more than 25k per month. IMHO.

Thanks for reply the trees are mostly 14 to 20 yrs old and the rest are what we started planting about three years ago but I think you are right we should be getting more my wife is looking into now and I will get on the case when I get back in August there is about 350 producing rai all told and we are looking at selling some of them where it has gone a bit awry, just the trees not the land we will replant it. What are other good crops to get into we can grow vitually anything as the soil is rich and plenty of water all year ?

rgds

Notlaw

[rubik101]

Para wood, or rubber tree wood, is now a very valuable commodity. Furniture makers use it now as a substitute for such woods as teak and beech wood in the UK. Don't discard your old trees. Cut them carefully and sell them.

[leeclaxton]

Dear members,

Could anybody let me know how much farmers are currently getting per kilo for air-dried rubber (latex) sheets? Also could anyone give me a ballpark figure on likely/average ADS annual production per tree. Any related figures would help me do my sums.

Many thanks, Lee

[surat04]

Dear members,

Could anybody let me know how much farmers are currently getting per kilo for air-dried rubber (latex) sheets? Also could anyone give me a ballpark figure on likely/average ADS annual production per tree. Any related figures would help me do my sums.

Many thanks, Lee

You can check the market price online at www.rubberthai.com. Yesterday unsmoked sheet was a little over 93 baht/kilo but expect to get a couple of baht less than this at your local wholesaler, depending on quality.