Thieving Police

[HarryHacker]

It was a shakedown. I would not have paid him either!

Oh <deleted>, how is it a shakedown? The dude broke the law, was stopped and fined!

It is a shakedown because the cop tried to intimidate him into paying cash, so that he could pocket it. Most likely, he would not have been stopped otherwise!

Are you completely out to lunch? The cops pull over the OP, discover he had broken the law and then fined him 3 GBP, 4 Euro, 6 US$, please show me the shakedown.

[HarryHacker]

Maybe a mod should change the topic to;

"I broke the law and was fined and I now I'm going to tell everyone how hard done by I am"

[awakened]

I would rather pay 200 THB to a corrupt policeman, than 20x that to a corrupt state. Twice I got fined 120 Euros for not wearing a seat belt in Portugal. One when I was sat in the back of a car. Speed traps in the UK are automatic money printing devices for the Police. Also, if I go one minute over my parking ticket, my car is clamped. The State has now become Dick Turpin, except you can't shoot the bas***d.

I think we all know that 'money is the root of all evil'. We are unhappy about relatively minor incidents, yet how many are really aware of the huge scams being perpetrated.

Who hasn't yet twigged the 'health' industry is in reality the 'sickness' industry?

Is it really credible that we can't find a drop of natural food in a supermarket, only irradiated, de-natured, chemically-derived, colored, preservative-laced gloop, full of appetite-stimulants, that they put in pretty packaging and call food? They know it makes us sick but that's exactly the intention. Wouldn't you call that corrupt?

The whole world money system is corrupt.. see fractional reserve banking.

The American state is corrupt, see CARF http://www.cafr1.com/

There is no such thing as 'democracy', it's a lie. A lie, being a corruption of truth.

Religion is totally corrupt. It's picked the pockets of the ignorant masses for centuries. At one time priests encouraged parishioners to buy their way into heaven. 'Tithing' is another scam.

The social services is corrupt... state kidnapping masquerading as family support.

The deliberate corrupting of our children at an early stage by a deceitful media. Walt Disney Corp=Satan's handmaiden

Bill Hicks said Marketing and Public relations people should kill themselves. I agree. Professional liars the lot of them.

The criminal justice system is corrupt. There to protect monied or connected criminals and in the service of same.

The Prison system is corrupt. A prisoner is sentenced to 20 years x $89 per day x 365 x 20 = $649,700, instrument floated, cash raised today.

Our morals are clearly under attack in an attempt to corrupt. Our senses of compassion, tolerance, peace, selflessness are being corrupted.

Every time the herd is spooked by media fear-based campaigns it's a corruption of truth.

Corruption is everywhere. It's just packaged as 'democracy', 'freedom', the 'business cycle', 'entertainment' etc.. Delivered by used car salesmen, spin merchants, actors and bought 'experts' and.... arrggghhhh..... a pox on all their houses!

Where does it start? In every one of us.

The whole sorry mess needs a Biblical flood. Think I'll slip Noah a few quid to organise it

[samran]

I hardly think I am one being pompous or narrow minded here.

You continue to miss the entire point. This was not “tea money”. This was a fine for breaking a law. A law which also happens to have a real good reason for existing, and at least the police are enforcing it, even though their motivation is not traffic safety, but revenue production, it remains that it is being enforced. Is that not a much better thing for Thailand then worrying about if it was paid there or at the station and if the ticket was actually recorded?

TH

I've got to disagree. Thailand and the Thai people have benefited immensely in terms of civil serivce cleaning up their act in many areas- in the sense that in many areas they actually are getting a service from the government that they are entitled to and are not paying under the table money to get things done. The police, customs, infratsucture ministries and many parts of the judiciary are the real last frontiers here in Thailand but in other areas things have improved immensely, and with little acts such as the OP will continue to do so.

I alluded to it before, but I'll expand on it now.

My mother moved to Australia in the early 1970's. She left a system which at every level was corrupt and even basic services required money giving tea money. Back in April my mother went through many levels of the bureacracy that she went through back in 1971 and walked away pleasently suprised.

Back in the 1970's simply to get a passport, she had to jump through the hoops of checks etc at the Ampur, Police special branch - just so she could leave Thailand. From a poor family born in Huay Kwang, it took her months. Today, that same process to get a passport takes 30 mins and is one of the most hi-tech and transparent priceeses in the world.

Back in April, for the first time in nearly 37 years, my mother renewed all her Thai paperwork, as well as taking my wife down to special branch so that my wife could apply for her Thai nationality. You couldn't shut my mum up after it was all said and done - the professionalism, the helpfulness at all levels. All for zero money and ultra transparency.

In my experience - I've lived in Thailand, the UK and Australia (and had to get 'into the system' in all of these places) the Thai civil service ranks 100 better than the UK and on a par with Australia in many respects - and exceeds Australia in some. Everything from Tax, ID's, Visas, passports, Bank accounts you name it, I've done it for all three places.

Now, it has taken nearly 40 years for these departments to get to where they have - but they are there. But they had to start 'somewhere'. That somewhere was cleaning up their own acts so they could move to a higher level of professionalism.

Same with the coppers. People have to stop paying them. They have to be less willing to accept the money - or at the very least feel that effort of getting the money is an increasingly a tough call.

Then and only then will they look to actually providing a service beyond a few traffic stops - and get to the stage where they are able to concentrate on their jobs of preventing crime in the broader sense.

[mikethevigoman]

Lots of comments here for the thai way and disgust at it, lets have a vote ,do we want the thai police working like the western police, ie expensive fines and a points system ?,. no chance of a back hander,. for me its no contest, pathetic at best,.its always the farang whinging at this, the thais just accept it, when in rome i say,.

[mikethevigoman]

I hardly think I am one being pompous or narrow minded here.

You continue to miss the entire point. This was not "tea money". This was a fine for breaking a law. A law which also happens to have a real good reason for existing, and at least the police are enforcing it, even though their motivation is not traffic safety, but revenue production, it remains that it is being enforced. Is that not a much better thing for Thailand then worrying about if it was paid there or at the station and if the ticket was actually recorded?

TH

I've got to disagree. Thailand and the Thai people have benefited immensely in terms of civil serivce cleaning up their act in many areas- in the sense that in many areas they actually are getting a service from the government that they are entitled to and are not paying under the table money to get things done. The police, customs, infratsucture ministries and many parts of the judiciary are the real last frontiers here in Thailand but in other areas things have improved immensely, and with little acts such as the OP will continue to do so.

I alluded to it before, but I'll expand on it now.

My mother moved to Australia in the early 1970's. She left a system which at every level was corrupt and even basic services required money giving tea money. Back in April my mother went through many levels of the bureacracy that she went through back in 1971 and walked away pleasently suprised.

Back in the 1970's simply to get a passport, she had to jump through the hoops of checks etc at the Ampur, Police special branch - just so she could leave Thailand. From a poor family born in Huay Kwang, it took her months. Today, that same process to get a passport takes 30 mins and is one of the most hi-tech and transparent priceeses in the world.

Back in April, for the first time in nearly 37 years, my mother renewed all her Thai paperwork, as well as taking my wife down to special branch so that my wife could apply for her Thai nationality. You couldn't shut my mum up after it was all said and done - the professionalism, the helpfulness at all levels. All for zero money and ultra transparency.

In my experience - I've lived in Thailand, the UK and Australia (and had to get 'into the system' in all of these places) the Thai civil service ranks 100 better than the UK and on a par with Australia in many respects - and exceeds Australia in some. Everything from Tax, ID's, Visas, passports, Bank accounts you name it, I've done it for all three places.

Now, it has taken nearly 40 years for these departments to get to where they have - but they are there. But they had to start 'somewhere'. That somewhere was cleaning up their own acts so they could move to a higher level of professionalism.

Same with the coppers. People have to stop paying them. They have to be less willing to accept the money - or at the very least feel that effort of getting the money is an increasingly a tough call.

Then and only then will they look to actually providing a service beyond a few traffic stops - and get to the stage where they are able to concentrate on their jobs of preventing crime in the broader sense.

"Same with the coppers. People have to stop paying them. They have to be less willing to accept the money - or at the very least feel that effort of getting the money is an increasingly a tough call." ) I think they will have to start giving them some decent wages first,. Edited July 16, 2008 by mikethevigoman

[madjbs]

I've got to disagree. Thailand and the Thai people have benefited immensely in terms of civil serivce cleaning up their act in many areas- in the sense that in many areas they actually are getting a service from the government that they are entitled to and are not paying under the table money to get things done......

Good post Samran, however there is a major problem in that theory. In the case of the civil service, the majority of the people didn't want to pay bribes to get the job done, they just want to get whatever it is they were after. In the case of the police force, as it is a punishment, people actually want to pay bribes. This will male it 100 times harder for anything to change as the majority of people are fairly happy the way it is, it's only the unlucky few who actually need the police to solve serious crimes that loose out.

[samran]

I've got to disagree. Thailand and the Thai people have benefited immensely in terms of civil serivce cleaning up their act in many areas- in the sense that in many areas they actually are getting a service from the government that they are entitled to and are not paying under the table money to get things done......

Good post Samran, however there is a major problem in that theory. In the case of the civil service, the majority of the people didn't want to pay bribes to get the job done, they just want to get whatever it is they were after. In the case of the police force, as it is a punishment, people actually want to pay bribes. This will male it 100 times harder for anything to change as the majority of people are fairly happy the way it is, it's only the unlucky few who actually need the police to solve serious crimes that loose out.

in my view people would rather pay the copper directly for a couple of reasons:

1) They take your license and make it a relative pain in the arse to get it back and pay the fine to get it back.

- solution - let people hold their licenses and make it easier to pay their fines at non-police stations. Online, at ATM's at 7'11 Day/night payments. The technology and systems are already there. Won't be the panacea but it will make it easier for people who want to do the right thing and increase official revenues to the police - which can be accounted for. Ideally you'd like the coppers to get a pay rise out of it....

2) People are too complacent to pay and don't fear paying the copper. In my view, (As half a one.. ) thai people are incredibly scared of breaking even a simple rule or social norm - if it is enforced. Think abou it. They are happy enough to line up as robots on a bunch of things that authority tells them to, yet ingnore doing the 'right' thing when they don't have to. A few high profile busts of normal people paying off coppers will send the fear of god into a large proportion of people. ITV - back in the day when it was truely independent, started making all sorts of people uncomfortable when they started broadcasting motorists bribing coppers. The general feeling was 'am I on TV??'. People are easily shamed here and it doesn't take very much I think....

[Ulysses G.]

I would rather pay 200 THB to a corrupt policeman, than 20x that to a corrupt state. Twice I got fined 120 Euros for not wearing a seat belt in Portugal. One when I was sat in the back of a car. Speed traps in the UK are automatic money printing devices for the Police. Also, if I go one minute over my parking ticket, my car is clamped. The State has now become Dick Turpin, except you can't shoot the bas***d.

I think we all know that 'money is the root of all evil'. We are unhappy about relatively minor incidents, yet how many are really aware of the huge scams being perpetrated.

Who hasn't yet twigged the 'health' industry is in reality the 'sickness' industry?

Is it really credible that we can't find a drop of natural food in a supermarket, only irradiated, de-natured, chemically-derived, colored, preservative-laced gloop, full of appetite-stimulants, that they put in pretty packaging and call food? They know it makes us sick but that's exactly the intention. Wouldn't you call that corrupt?

The whole world money system is corrupt.. see fractional reserve banking.

The American state is corrupt, see CARF http://www.cafr1.com/

There is no such thing as 'democracy', it's a lie. A lie, being a corruption of truth.

Religion is totally corrupt. It's picked the pockets of the ignorant masses for centuries. At one time priests encouraged parishioners to buy their way into heaven. 'Tithing' is another scam.

The social services is corrupt... state kidnapping masquerading as family support.

The deliberate corrupting of our children at an early stage by a deceitful media. Walt Disney Corp=Satan's handmaiden

Bill Hicks said Marketing and Public relations people should kill themselves. I agree. Professional liars the lot of them.

The criminal justice system is corrupt. There to protect monied or connected criminals and in the service of same.

The Prison system is corrupt. A prisoner is sentenced to 20 years x $89 per day x 365 x 20 = $649,700, instrument floated, cash raised today.

Our morals are clearly under attack in an attempt to corrupt. Our senses of compassion, tolerance, peace, selflessness are being corrupted.

Every time the herd is spooked by media fear-based campaigns it's a corruption of truth.

Corruption is everywhere. It's just packaged as 'democracy', 'freedom', the 'business cycle', 'entertainment' etc.. Delivered by used car salesmen, spin merchants, actors and bought 'experts' and.... arrggghhhh..... a pox on all their houses!

Where does it start? In every one of us.

The whole sorry mess needs a Biblical flood. Think I'll slip Noah a few quid to organise it

Another prophet wearing a tin-foil hat!

[awakened]

Another prophet wearing a tin-foil hat!

Prophet? No my friend. I'm just stating what many already know. Do a search on any of these topics and you'll drown in the results.

As for a tin-foil hat? Don't be daft. We're in Thailand. Too hot.

[bino]

What are you driving around in, dekka007?

I didn't think you had to pay a fine from the back seat of a taxi.

Something a lot bigger and quicker than a taxi m8

Skytrain?

[pampal]

It's much better to pay cash on the spot, rather be bothered to go to Rama IV and pay more money later. He was doing you a favor

[Chaimai]

[quote name='awakened' date='2008-07-16 13:50:22' Where does it start? In every one of us.

The whole sorry mess needs a Biblical flood. Think I'll slip Noah a few quid to organise it

Awakened - get out more and jai yen yen.

[dougieboy]

Sunday afternoon. Sri Nakharin Road. 30 or so police have set up a roadblock to haul in all the motorbikes that happen to be on the road.

I am confident as I pull up. Wearing a helmet, in the left lane, lights on, bike taxed, carrying licence and copy of registration, bike in good condition, number plate is standard, no customisation of the vehicle, within the speed limit. What can they possibly do me for?

Answer = illegal helmet. What? The tinting on the visor is too dark he tells me. (I bought the helmet 3 years ago. It is a standard Index, cost 1000 Baht with a tinted visor).

I smile and accept the officer's comments while handing him my licence and wait for the inevitable ticket. He tells me that the ticket has to be paid at Rama 4 as they are highway police. But I don't need to go there as he tells me I can pay him 200 Baht on the spot. I decline. He physically leans against me and asks me for cash now. I decline. He continues to lean heavily against me. I can't move away as I am sitting on the bike. His face is right in mine. He continues to demand cash now. He asked me for cash about 15 times leaning against me. It was intimidating. I had to keep an eye on my wallet as I was sure he was going to make a grab for it. This situation lasted for several minutes. Finally he issued a ticket but with the fine amount left blank. I thank him and drive away quickly. What the helll was that about?

Good for you to stand up against obvious corruption, nt sure if I would have

[Ulysses G.]

Another prophet wearing a tin-foil hat!

Prophet? No my friend. I'm just stating what many already know. Do a search on any of these topics and you'll drown in the results.

I tried "Walt Disney Corp=Satan's handmaiden" first. All I got was your posts on Thai Visa.

[seagull]

It's much better to pay cash on the spot, rather be bothered to go to Rama IV and pay more money later. He was doing you a favor

Agreed. Win win situation. You scratched my back and I'll scratched your back. You don't scratch my back and I'll tear your back.

[markuk]

its not worth the hastle - just pay the fines and count yourself lucky - in other countries the penalty would be higher. Its just a fact of life living in Thailand the police are corrupt - they are paid very little so they look for all they can get. Sure dont pay him the cash get a ticket and go wait in the police station being messed about to pay it there - dont know about you but i would value my own time at more than 200 BHT

[angiud]

its not worth the hastle - just pay the fines and count yourself lucky - in other countries the penalty would be higher. Its just a fact of life living in Thailand the police are corrupt - they are paid very little so they look for all they can get. Sure dont pay him the cash get a ticket and go wait in the police station being messed about to pay it there - dont know about you but i would value my own time at more than 200 BHT

Do you think if Policemen have a better salary they stop to take bribes for everything??

And this justify policemen to be corrupted?

And what about thai people pay the bribes. Their salary is not small as well?

And, yes, in other countries the tickets are much bigger. So better pay the smaller here. This is the attitude of some kind of falang that always say: wow, in my country is more expensive! So we can pay without problem.

[SnakeBite]

Sunday afternoon. Sri Nakharin Road. 30 or so police have set up a roadblock to haul in all the motorbikes that happen to be on the road.

As far as I know, the law is if you wear the helmet at NIGHT with a tinted shield, then you can be ticketed. If it was in the afternoon as you state, then he had no right to issue the ticket. Does anyone have a Thai version and a English translation of this law?

[tw25rw]

Do you think if Policemen have a better salary they stop to take bribes for everything??

It would be a start, but they need a major shake up in the way they operate.. I heard they had to buy their own equipment and even travel expenses to investigate crimes.

They need to be able to live well on their salary and to have an overseeing body with the power to dismiss for corruption and a zero tolerance policy..

[awakened]

I tried "Walt Disney Corp=Satan's handmaiden" first. All I got was your posts on Thai Visa.

Sure you did.

Try 'disney satanic' and 'disney occult'

Awakened - get out more and jai yen yen.

Will do. Will do. Once I figure out what it means.

Edited July 17, 2008 by awakened

[TopDogger]

When there are as many as 30 police stopping traffic they normally have a desk set up for 'on the spot' fines.

Personally I would have paid the small amount asked for especially as you were in the wrong.

The official fine would have been more than 200 baht anywayz?

[thaihome]

My understanding is that fines are part of the funding for the Police. It doesn’t matter if you pay at the spot or down at the station. It is still distributed to the members as part of their income. I doubt that the officer demanding the payment on the spot at a organized traffic stop gets to keep it all to himself, he would be in big trouble from his superiors. That is not to say, there are not independent operators out there that will take advantage of a situation to pocket a fine, but in my experience over the last few years it is not near as common as it once was.

I do think there as been a large improvement in how the police enforce the traffic laws, if nothing else, at least now you generally have to have broken a law (no matter how obscure) to get fined. In past, it was not uncommon to be pulled over and have a demand for money made even if you had not actually broken a law.

I notice more and more of the large organized stops both in Bangkok and upcountry, usually primarly directed and motorcycles, enforcing helmet, registration, and insurance requirements. They also go after motorist that are not wearing seat belts and ,recently, talking on mobiles while driving. In addition, I have noted regular stops going after trucks for overweight, insurance, and proper driver licenses. There are also increasing usage of radar on the expressways with people being pulled over at the toll booths for speeding.

I am certainly not condoning the behavior of the policeman in OP, it was no doubt intended to intimidate the OP into paying on the spot and not take the ticket instead. I just don't think he was stealing as stated in the title of the thread.

There still are many police out there that still have the old attitude that was once the norm, but increasingly the attitude is much more professional then in the past. It is going to take a long time to totally erase the perception created by generations of abuse.

TH

[angiud]

My understanding is that fines are part of the funding for the Police. It doesn't matter if you pay at the spot or down at the station. It is still distributed to the members as part of their income. I doubt that the officer demanding the payment on the spot at a organized traffic stop gets to keep it all to himself, he would be in big trouble from his superiors. That is not to say, there are not independent operators out there that will take advantage of a situation to pocket a fine, but in my experience over the last few years it is not near as common as it once was.

I do think there as been a large improvement in how the police enforce the traffic laws, if nothing else, at least now you generally have to have broken a law (no matter how obscure) to get fined. In past, it was not uncommon to be pulled over and have a demand for money made even if you had not actually broken a law.

I notice more and more of the large organized stops both in Bangkok and upcountry, usually primarly directed and motorcycles, enforcing helmet, registration, and insurance requirements. They also go after motorist that are not wearing seat belts and ,recently, talking on mobiles while driving. In addition, I have noted regular stops going after trucks for overweight, insurance, and proper driver licenses. There are also increasing usage of radar on the expressways with people being pulled over at the toll booths for speeding.

I am certainly not condoning the behavior of the policeman in OP, it was no doubt intended to intimidate the OP into paying on the spot and not take the ticket instead. I just don't think he was stealing as stated in the title of the thread.

There still are many police out there that still have the old attitude that was once the norm, but increasingly the attitude is much more professional then in the past. It is going to take a long time to totally erase the perception created by generations of abuse.

TH

I feel more safe now.

[biker Bob]

Was stopped two weeks ago on Bangna Trad, near Bangna Towers. Same story they wanted me to go Rama 4 and pay the fine, but after about 5 seconds they accepted 200 bath on the spot. I live in Samut Prakarn so going to Rama 4 is a bit of a hassle.

I was riding in the third lane so i cant complaine.

[jaiyenyen]

I tried "Walt Disney Corp=Satan's handmaiden" first. All I got was your posts on Thai Visa.

Sure you did.

Try 'disney satanic' and 'disney occult'

Awakened - get out more and jai yen yen.

Will do. Will do. Once I figure out what it means.

Hey! Don't drag me into this

[OxfordWill]

Ah, the weekly corruption argument. I'm on the side of just pay it.. the problem is not the cops on the street, its the people in power.

[Boudak]

Ah, the weekly corruption argument. I'm on the side of just pay it.. the problem is not the cops on the street, its the people in power.

The problem is the whole system, including the cops. The need for "weekly corruption argument" is proof that the problem is not going away.

[Familyonthemove]

The policeman who stopped me yesterday had a tinted visor on his own helmet. He dropped down his visor to cover his face before speaking to me. He was not threatening, though I'm still not sure what I did wrong, if anything. I find being stopped by the police extremely stressful. They are armed, my Thai is poor, and I'm not sure what I've done wrong, if anything.

My bikes legal, I wear a helmet (avatar photo was off the road, in India), my visors not tinted, I stick to speed limits and traffic rules, yet get pulled in so often I'm considering going to back to a planet killing Fortuna with driver.

And I can afford the fines - so it must be even worse for the local bikers.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Familyonthemove

[seagull]

Ah, the weekly corruption argument. I'm on the side of just pay it.. the problem is not the cops on the street, its the people in power.

The problem is the whole system, including the cops. The need for "weekly corruption argument" is proof that the problem is not going away.

Precisely ! It is not going away, the corruptions I mean. So why wanna stressed yourself ? Pay up on the spot and grab yourself a nice chilled beer. We are not going to be alive in this LOS to see that TIT has topped the chart for being the least corruptible society/country in the world.