Rants and Raves about Filipino EFL teachers in Thailand

[scyriacus]

6. It could very well be a 100% Filipino market next year.

so dear markg, what's wrong with philippino teachers? i believe they are better and cheaper as 'native' speakers and they know the problems of speaking english as a second language and they know the culture (see ur 'lowering standards' insult! its not 'lowering', its upgrading to the existing standards here). i wish, the farangs would stop to 'teach' thai people their way but simply make them speak english, coz that's all they want and all they need. no dark sarcasm in the classroom, teacher leave them kids alone!

[haltes]

The problem with Philippino teachers is that they

a) Still use oudated teaching methodologies

Their English is still not good enough to teach some subjects or to teach English

c) Degrees from Philippino Universities are of a much much lower standard than those given by western universities

They might be cheaper, but cheaper does not mean better.

[PeaceBlondie]

philippino teachers...know the problems of speaking english as a second language and they know the culture .. i wish, the farangs would stop to 'teach' thai people their way but simply make them speak english, coz that's all they want and all they need. no dark sarcasm in the classroom, teacher leave them kids alone!

Thai students already have thousands of Thai English teachers who know how hard it is to speak English, and speak it no better and maybe no worse than most Filipino teachers!! What do Filipinos know about Thai culture that farang veterans here do not know?

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

[markg]

6. It could very well be a 100% Filipino market next year.

so dear markg, what's wrong with philippino teachers? i believe they are better and cheaper as 'native' speakers and they know the problems of speaking english as a second language and they know the culture (see ur 'lowering standards' insult! its not 'lowering', its upgrading to the existing standards here). i wish, the farangs would stop to 'teach' thai people their way but simply make them speak english, coz that's all they want and all they need. no dark sarcasm in the classroom, teacher leave them kids alone!

I never said there was anything wrong with Filipino teachers. I just said that that is the way the market seems to be going within TEFL.

My only experience with Filipinos is at the interview stage, i have never actually worked with any.

I found, at interview, bearing in mind i am interviewing solely for teachers of EFL, that their English was not great.

I found that Filipinos claiming 10+ years of experience in teaching English, to speak using English that was so old-fashioned it was almost biblical.

We just dont speak that way anymore, and i dont want teachers to teach my kids in that way.

I work in Phuket. My kids need to learn conversational English. They dont need to know how to address the grand courthouse of the queen of sheeba.

If they do, they can learn that later.

I also found that if a Filipino didnt know the answer to a question at interview - bearing in mind that i speak at normal Native speaker rate during an interview for an English teacher, then they would merely answer "yes Sir"

I understand that that may be an Asian trait, as i also found the same when travelling around India.

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that Filipinos will work longer and harder for less pay.

I have no idea if their teaching methodologies are out dated or not, as i've never got that far with them.

Anyway enough of that. If these rules do come in, and there is of course no guarantee that they will, this being Thailand an' all, then i foresee the end of Native speakers within TEFL.

Yeah - i know - sounds like yet another ex-pat doom-sayer, but lets face facts.

1. There arent enough B.Ed qualified teachers to fill all the posts. TEFL is NOT a career and having more than 1 or 2 years teaching EFL in Thailand on your CV is not going to hugely impress schools back home, if teaching back home is what you aspire to. (and presumably, that is what people who did a B.Ed DO aspire to)

2. Apart from the B.Ed, i understand one can also become licensed by doing the one year, 60,000 baht Thai post-graduate course. I'm sorry. I see little take up on that one. Firstly, if it's weekends only, it needs to logistically be in your home town, and i just dont see it being that widely available. I cite as evidence the fact that the Private Schools of Thailand STILL cannot let the HUNDREDS of teachers in Phuket take the Thai Culture Course within Phuket. The lady in Phuket who heads up the PSoT suggested Bangkok, Buriram, Nakhorn Sri Thammarat, or Songkhla as our nearest course providers. fuc_kING Buriram!!! I ask you! (by bus, thats 14 hours, fuc_k knows, 4 hours and 7 hours away)

Secondly, it's of limited world wide use. You think it's gonna help you get QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) back in the West? Nah !

3. I'm sorry. Educational standards are lower here. Yes, they really are. This isnt me trying to impose my culture on anyone, this is me trying to teach. How can i teach when the kids are not in the classrooms? Does anyone see the irony in the fact that a number of students missed 30 minutes of a 50 minute lesson so that they could be told off for having hair that is too long? Would even a chimp who is interested in actual education not come to the conclusion that AFTER lessons would be a better time to discuss hair length. How about an afternoon off to PRACTICE Wai Kru day for Matayom 4, 5 and 6 students? fuc_k me, they've done it a dozen times already. Is allowing cheating not dropping your standards? Is not failing anyone, not dropping your standards? Is allowing people to breeze in 15 mins late because they were eating noodles, not dropping your standards? My school appear to allow all of the above and i've had to drop my standards or ship out. I'm sorry - the standards here are lower. They (The Thai) just dont take education as seriously as we do. In my view anyway.

So, i'm sorry to say it again, but within EFL, if they dont relax the regulations, then it will be a Filipino market.

Whether that is a step forwards or backwards is up for debate. In my limited experience, it's a step backwards. And frankly, one should only change a system to improve it.

If you really want decent, qualified teaching professionals, then you have to pay for them. You have to offer a career, a pension, Continuous Professional Development, a SERIOUSLY long contract and guaranteed visa with work permit - like 5 year minimum, and the option to buy land in your own name - basically you want to attract people to come here, improve their career and professional development and STAY.

35K a month with multiple hoop jumping does not the bacon bring home.

(i remain Sir, your obedient servant, and may the Lord smile graciously upon my application and your family)

[scyriacus]

Thai students already have thousands of Thai English teachers who know how hard it is to speak English, and speak it no better and maybe no worse than most Filipino teachers!! What do Filipinos know about Thai culture that farang veterans here do not know?

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

you see peaceblondie, reading and understanding are different things. i did not say, that english is hard or difficult. in fact it's rather easy and hence the most used (and most abused) language in business and tourism. every child learns its mothers tongue with ease, there is no such thing like a difficult language. what native speakers usually don't perceive is the difficulty for non native speakers (even heard some laughing about someone else's accent). we at least should agree, that by nature a non native speaker understands the problems of non native speakers much better than a native speaker (for you i have to add: everything else given equal, because you invented the 'veteran', what about the 'novice'?), khao djai mai? although not a teacher myself, most thais say my english is better for them than that of most native speakers, because i use simple words, no idioms and speak slowly and well pronounced without chewing on my gums while i speak. (and that is not an insult angainst you, shakespeare or anyone, just the thai pragmatic approach). agree with your sad experience with thousands (!?) of thai english teachers, they even cannot 'sapeak' english. i live in thailand a long time and therefore know, that all thai students learn english, some for up to 12 years, but most cannot communicate. that is their culture: don't loose face by making mistakes, the infamous 'no-fail-policy' and lack of practice (outside bangkok and the tourist hot spots). you obviously lack any knowledge of thai culture.

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

you are the ones responsible for the thais trying to retaliate with their 'thai cultural knowledge & understanding test'......how many of your thai students understand "Fili-cate Thailish"? i do, but i call it "elitist" and not helpful for 97% thais. your inflammatory remarks about the filipino english compared to thai english shall be forgiven, because you obviously don't know not much about the filipines. or did you know, that english is one of their two official languages there? (canada, switzerland, belgium, what language....?) even in god's own country, america, many people don't speak english, but spanish, chinese, italian, german.......which language is superior? which culture or history is indispensible? i guess in thailand it is thai, not english, which is just desirable. but to what extent? perfect?? jump off of your high horse, stop teaching the 'free', try to understand their position and help them to communicate, no more, no less........and back to the subject: filipinos can do that simply better, because they have 'naa thai' and credibility, not superiority in a 'johnny walker black-label-society' (only the best....seems to be an anglo-american-trauma) even if you have nothing on your pocket.

hope to get some serious comments

ps: i didn't know much about england, america and canada (and didn't want to know). i did love the rolling stones and their songs and just wanted to understand what they were singing about. that was my way to learn english! learning is simply inseperable from your own motivation!

[mrtoad]

Thai students already have thousands of Thai English teachers who know how hard it is to speak English, and speak it no better and maybe no worse than most Filipino teachers!! What do Filipinos know about Thai culture that farang veterans here do not know?

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

you see peaceblondie, reading and understanding are different things. i did not say, that english is hard or difficult. in fact it's rather easy and hence the most used (and most abused) language in business and tourism. every child learns its mothers tongue with ease, there is no such thing like a difficult language. what native speakers usually don't perceive is the difficulty for non native speakers (even heard some laughing about someone else's accent). we at least should agree, that by nature a non native speaker understands the problems of non native speakers much better than a native speaker (for you i have to add: everything else given equal, because you invented the 'veteran', what about the 'novice'?), khao djai mai? although not a teacher myself, most thais say my english is better for them than that of most native speakers, because i use simple words, no idioms and speak slowly and well pronounced without chewing on my gums while i speak. (and that is not an insult angainst you, shakespeare or anyone, just the thai pragmatic approach). agree with your sad experience with thousands (!?) of thai english teachers, they even cannot 'sapeak' english. i live in thailand a long time and therefore know, that all thai students learn english, some for up to 12 years, but most cannot communicate. that is their culture: don't loose face by making mistakes, the infamous 'no-fail-policy' and lack of practice (outside bangkok and the tourist hot spots). you obviously lack any knowledge of thai culture.

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

you are the ones responsible for the thais trying to retaliate with their 'thai cultural knowledge & understanding test'......how many of your thai students understand "Fili-cate Thailish"? i do, but i call it "elitist" and not helpful for 97% thais. your inflammatory remarks about the filipino english compared to thai english shall be forgiven, because you obviously don't know not much about the filipines. or did you know, that english is one of their two official languages there? (canada, switzerland, belgium, what language....?) even in god's own country, america, many people don't speak english, but spanish, chinese, italian, german.......which language is superior? which culture or history is indispensible? i guess in thailand it is thai, not english, which is just desirable. but to what extent? perfect?? jump off of your high horse, stop teaching the 'free', try to understand their position and help them to communicate, no more, no less........and back to the subject: filipinos can do that simply better, because they have 'naa thai' and credibility, not superiority in a 'johnny walker black-label-society' (only the best....seems to be an anglo-american-trauma) even if you have nothing on your pocket.

hope to get some serious comments

ps: i didn't know much about england, america and canada (and didn't want to know). i did love the rolling stones and their songs and just wanted to understand what they were singing about. that was my way to learn english! learning is simply inseperable from your own motivation!

Sorry, but if you want to start having a go at native speakers, then at least check some of your grammar and spelling.

[mopenyang]

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

And you dare to call other people "elitist" with that kind of comment?

You are the one who needs to come off his high horse pretending to know all things about Thailand and Thais and obviously knowing next to nothing based on comments like the above.

[garro]

Thai students already have thousands of Thai English teachers who know how hard it is to speak English, and speak it no better and maybe no worse than most Filipino teachers!! What do Filipinos know about Thai culture that farang veterans here do not know?

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

you see peaceblondie, reading and understanding are different things. i did not say, that english is hard or difficult. in fact it's rather easy and hence the most used (and most abused) language in business and tourism. every child learns its mothers tongue with ease, there is no such thing like a difficult language. what native speakers usually don't perceive is the difficulty for non native speakers (even heard some laughing about someone else's accent). we at least should agree, that by nature a non native speaker understands the problems of non native speakers much better than a native speaker (for you i have to add: everything else given equal, because you invented the 'veteran', what about the 'novice'?), khao djai mai? although not a teacher myself, most thais say my english is better for them than that of most native speakers, because i use simple words, no idioms and speak slowly and well pronounced without chewing on my gums while i speak. (and that is not an insult angainst you, shakespeare or anyone, just the thai pragmatic approach). agree with your sad experience with thousands (!?) of thai english teachers, they even cannot 'sapeak' english. i live in thailand a long time and therefore know, that all thai students learn english, some for up to 12 years, but most cannot communicate. that is their culture: don't loose face by making mistakes, the infamous 'no-fail-policy' and lack of practice (outside bangkok and the tourist hot spots). you obviously lack any knowledge of thai culture.

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

you are the ones responsible for the thais trying to retaliate with their 'thai cultural knowledge & understanding test'......how many of your thai students understand "Fili-cate Thailish"? i do, but i call it "elitist" and not helpful for 97% thais. your inflammatory remarks about the filipino english compared to thai english shall be forgiven, because you obviously don't know not much about the filipines. or did you know, that english is one of their two official languages there? (canada, switzerland, belgium, what language....?) even in god's own country, america, many people don't speak english, but spanish, chinese, italian, german.......which language is superior? which culture or history is indispensible? i guess in thailand it is thai, not english, which is just desirable. but to what extent? perfect?? jump off of your high horse, stop teaching the 'free', try to understand their position and help them to communicate, no more, no less........and back to the subject: filipinos can do that simply better, because they have 'naa thai' and credibility, not superiority in a 'johnny walker black-label-society' (only the best....seems to be an anglo-american-trauma) even if you have nothing on your pocket.

hope to get some serious comments

ps: i didn't know much about england, america and canada (and didn't want to know). i did love the rolling stones and their songs and just wanted to understand what they were singing about. that was my way to learn english! learning is simply inseperable from your own motivation!

You have obviously put a lot of effort into this rant, but it seems to say a lot more about you then it does about the subject at hand. It is obvious from your post that you are bitter, ignorant, and rude. These are not things I normally associate with Filipinos, and I have worked with many around the world.

Now, Filipinos may claim that the second language in their country is English, but from my experience this is a delusion. This is why when they apply for work in an English speaking country they must pass IELTS, or similar exams, for non-native speakers. I have met many Filipinos whose English is excellent, but the majority that I have met have average ability.

As you know for many Filipinos their second language is their local language with Tagalog their second. If English is the second official language then this makes the country seem a bit foolish and over-ambitious. To be fair I would say that the English language skills of the Indian teacher's are often superior to the average Filipino- at least the ones I have met in Britain, Ireland, Saudi, Thailand and elsewhere. I only needed to glance at your rant to know that you are not a native speaker.

As I said in my previous post I work with some excellent Filipino and Indian teachers. Luckily they don't seem to demonstrate the same attitude as you. I am confused as to why you need to demonstrate this attitude as the non-native speakers are beginning to 'rule the roost' here in Thailand anyway because they can work cheaply and are easier to manipulate. It is about economics and not standards. It may come as a disappointment later when they discover that they can often only communicate in English with Filipinos and not native speakers. I would also say that in a lot of cases there is no real difference between having a Thai teacher teaching English and a Filipino.

I think that perhaps you are having a bad day, and this is why you are being so insulting about native speakers. I could comment on some of your other allegations about us, but the stupidness of your allegations are so blatant that even you must see them.

Edited July 15, 2008 by garro

[wangsuda]

Thai students already have thousands of Thai English teachers who know how hard it is to speak English, and speak it no better and maybe no worse than most Filipino teachers!! What do Filipinos know about Thai culture that farang veterans here do not know?

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

you see peaceblondie, reading and understanding are different things. i did not say, that english is hard or difficult. in fact it's rather easy and hence the most used (and most abused) language in business and tourism. every child learns its mothers tongue with ease, there is no such thing like a difficult language. what native speakers usually don't perceive is the difficulty for non native speakers (even heard some laughing about someone else's accent). we at least should agree, that by nature a non native speaker understands the problems of non native speakers much better than a native speaker (for you i have to add: everything else given equal, because you invented the 'veteran', what about the 'novice'?), khao djai mai? although not a teacher myself, most thais say my english is better for them than that of most native speakers, because i use simple words, no idioms and speak slowly and well pronounced without chewing on my gums while i speak. (and that is not an insult angainst you, shakespeare or anyone, just the thai pragmatic approach). agree with your sad experience with thousands (!?) of thai english teachers, they even cannot 'sapeak' english. i live in thailand a long time and therefore know, that all thai students learn english, some for up to 12 years, but most cannot communicate. that is their culture: don't loose face by making mistakes, the infamous 'no-fail-policy' and lack of practice (outside bangkok and the tourist hot spots). you obviously lack any knowledge of thai culture.

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

you are the ones responsible for the thais trying to retaliate with their 'thai cultural knowledge & understanding test'......how many of your thai students understand "Fili-cate Thailish"? i do, but i call it "elitist" and not helpful for 97% thais. your inflammatory remarks about the filipino english compared to thai english shall be forgiven, because you obviously don't know not much about the filipines. or did you know, that english is one of their two official languages there? (canada, switzerland, belgium, what language....?) even in god's own country, america, many people don't speak english, but spanish, chinese, italian, german.......which language is superior? which culture or history is indispensible? i guess in thailand it is thai, not english, which is just desirable. but to what extent? perfect?? jump off of your high horse, stop teaching the 'free', try to understand their position and help them to communicate, no more, no less........and back to the subject: filipinos can do that simply better, because they have 'naa thai' and credibility, not superiority in a 'johnny walker black-label-society' (only the best....seems to be an anglo-american-trauma) even if you have nothing on your pocket.

hope to get some serious comments

ps: i didn't know much about england, america and canada (and didn't want to know). i did love the rolling stones and their songs and just wanted to understand what they were singing about. that was my way to learn english! learning is simply inseperable from your own motivation!

The problem with your analysis is that you do not look at the effects of learning only language and not culture, nor the effects of learning from a non-native speaker. Let me show you the results. Keep on dreaming that you are good at teaching, ok? BTW, this picture was taken at a major restaurant located in All Seasons Place on Wireless Road. A place that caters to English speakers. Not good.

Edited July 16, 2008 by wangsuda

[PeaceBlondie]

Seriously, scyricaus, I mistook you for a Syrian fool or Saracen troll at first. Now I see that you are a third-language teacher of Filipish. Do you poor writers and speakers of standard English not realize how lousy your comprehension is? Scott seems to agree with me that there is not much difference between Thai and Filipino teachers of EFL. The majority of them find English to be a very foreign language, which by their own efforts is obviously a most difficult language to master. Yes, I wrote MASTER, because no self-respecting teachers try to teach what they have not mastered themselves.

Note that we native speakers respect our Filipino co-teachers who teach well. It is the ranters who disprove themselves who incur our scorn, such as those who argue that you can teach English without its culture. Are you a shill for the TCT? By the way, I am glad to see you understood my term "to Fili-cate Thailish," which communicated to its intended audience, which are not Thai students.

scyriacus, I have a standard rule on internet forums, for native speakers and non-natives alike. This rule is not pedantic. When it is too difficult to even understand what they are trying to say, I ignore most of what they say. Huge paragraphs, no upper case, bad punctuation, wrong prepositions, contorted word orders, run-on sentences, too many commas, etc, - after a few lines, it is all meaningless. In plain English, you said nothing. Sorry. Do you actually earn over 8000 baht a month teaching English?

Ah, but maybe I am being arrogant. I am sorry for the Filipinos who cannot make a life in their native country, as I could. Many Filipinos, and many Thais, are good teachers, hard working, compliant, smiling, devout, etc.

[scyriacus]

Sorry, but if you want to start having a go at native speakers, then at least check some of your grammar and spelling.

sorry sir, i don't want to start having a go at native speakers (what a sentence! 'want start have go', i clearly can picture the beginners to browse their dictionaries: what does he want, where does he start, what does he have and where will that attack go to?). i just wonder, why i hit on this nerve with so many of you. i do want to talk about ways to encourage the average thai student to speak some english. i am neither a teacher nor a native english speaker, i just happen to love this country and its mostly pleasant people. would you please be so kind to correct my grammar and spelling, especially where it is misleading, instead of criticizing and cavil at lesser formalities. and please do use biased arguments, or you will simply be treated as one of those stuck-up snobbish native speakers (by far not all, but quite a few), who discourage their audience from having fun in communications.

[scyriacus]

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

And you dare to call other people "elitist" with that kind of comment?

You are the one who needs to come off his high horse pretending to know all things about Thailand and Thais and obviously knowing next to nothing based on comments like the above.

it's a matter of fact that in most thai households there are more tv, cd, vcd, dvd and mobiles than books (literature). my statement did not criticize thai people for not having invented the print press. i did criticize those inventors who want to teach students foreign cultures. then they complain about the thai retaliation (see topic). most thais have done with the standard sentences: hey sexy man where you come from whats your name i want my money - in the tourist centers! here in the country down south they 'learn' english for 12 years, but cannot communicate in full sentences (spo). although i don't know all about thailand (as you obviously pretend for yourself by judging my knowledge) this i know from living up-country for more than nine years. would you wise guy then please tell me precisely, how many thais read 'literature' (and please do not count disney, potter and bruce lee as literature). you still owe me any serious argument.................

btw these facts are not frustrating to me, they constitute my very task to tell them about shakespeare & schiller, but first they wanna learn english. help them!

[Scott]

I am sorry that this is getting quite off topic. Sadly, some people are doing some sort of racial or national comparisons that don't really matter all that much. Many, many people from many countries have mastered English very well. Others who are native speakers can't write a coherent sentence.

I work with and supervise all kinds of nationalities. The subject teachers (Math, Science, Social) are mostly Filipinos or Indian. Their language skills are good and their knowledge is superb. When it comes to writing, however, it takes time to get a written exam that is acceptable.

The LANGUAGE part of English where I am is reserved for the native speakers. Some of them are pretty worthless folks and the only gift they have is the gift of gab. I wouldn't want them doing anything much more than conversation. I am exaggerating, but you get my drfit.

So what is that Thailand wants? How do they go about getting it? I have encouraged my school to send Thai teachers for training--they can begin to upgrade the teaching of English themselves. They haven't, of course, done this.

Regulations generally have a purpose and an impact on systems and institutions. What is the purpose of these regulations? What do they wish to achieve? What impact will they have on the educational system?

I have stated before that mediocracy seems to be the goal here. I hope I am wrong. I hope there is a method in their madness and that someone can point it out.

[garro]

I am sorry that this is getting quite off topic. Sadly, some people are doing some sort of racial or national comparisons that don't really matter all that much. Many, many people from many countries have mastered English very well. Others who are native speakers can't write a coherent sentence.

I work with and supervise all kinds of nationalities. The subject teachers (Math, Science, Social) are mostly Filipinos or Indian. Their language skills are good and their knowledge is superb. When it comes to writing, however, it takes time to get a written exam that is acceptable.

The LANGUAGE part of English where I am is reserved for the native speakers. Some of them are pretty worthless folks and the only gift they have is the gift of gab. I wouldn't want them doing anything much more than conversation. I am exaggerating, but you get my drfit.

So what is that Thailand wants? How do they go about getting it? I have encouraged my school to send Thai teachers for training--they can begin to upgrade the teaching of English themselves. They haven't, of course, done this.

Regulations generally have a purpose and an impact on systems and institutions. What is the purpose of these regulations? What do they wish to achieve? What impact will they have on the educational system?

I have stated before that mediocracy seems to be the goal here. I hope I am wrong. I hope there is a method in their madness and that someone can point it out.

I am sorry, but your school must be very shabby if most of the native speakers are 'worthless folk' - what a peculiar way to refer to a human by the way. I would say that, at least my perspective, the native speaker is being edged out purely because of economics.

[scyriacus]

You have obviously put a lot of effort into this rant, but it seems to say a lot more about you then it does about the subject at hand. It is obvious from your post that you are bitter, ignorant, and rude. ....

Now, Filipinos may claim that the second language in their country is English, but from my experience this is a delusion. ...

As you know for many Filipinos their second language is their local language with Tagalog their second. If English is the second official language then this makes the country seem a bit foolish and over-ambitious.....

Luckily they don't seem to demonstrate the same attitude as you. I am confused as to why you need to demonstrate this attitude as the non-native speakers are beginning to 'rule the roost' here in Thailand anyway because they can work cheaply and are easier to manipulate. It is about economics and not standards. It may come as a disappointment later when they discover that they can often only communicate in English with Filipinos and not native speakers. I would also say that in a lot of cases there is no real difference between having a Thai teacher teaching English and a Filipino.

I think that perhaps you are having a bad day, and this is why you are being so insulting about native speakers. I could comment on some of your other allegations about us, but the stupidness of your allegations are so blatant that even you must see them.

dear garro, why do you call my reasonable and serious arguments a 'rant'? my oxford dictionary says: "rant —v. speak loudly, bombastically, violently, or theatrically." can you please specify just one concrete example, which meets just any of these definitions? you call me 'bitter, ignorant and rude' one single example please or would you just like to demonstrate to the esteemed audience, what a real 'rant' is? or are you talking about yourself?

i clearly understand from some arguments, that some teachers here are not talking seriously about how to make thais speak english. instead they are talking more about themselves, their jobs, their money, their fears, their superiority. what attitude do you display?

what do you want the non-native speakers to understand, when you talk about 'rule the roost'? who should be the rooster? you??

the poorer people are, the cheaper they are and the better one can manipulate them, this is why they are kept poor & uneducated, phom khao djai.

"a lot of cases" is sad enough, but there are a lot of ignorant lazy stupid people everywhere, not only in thailand, filipines or farang-country. if you want to learn about the philippines, please read the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines). it clearly states: Spanish was an official language of the Philippines until 1973. Since then, the two official national languages are Filipino and English.i know quite a few, who speak: bisayan, tagalog, spanish, english. as a matter of fact, many filipinos know very well, what it means to speak, learn and teach a foreign language, while most native english speakers never developed an urge to speak a second language. not because the are stupid or lazy, dead wrong! just because nearly everywhere some sort of pidgin english is spoken. most filipinos speak english much better than most thais and especially better than most thai english teachers (few neglectable exceptions). if you were really interested in helping thai people more than filling your own coffers, you would heartily welcome their assistance and support them wherever you can.

and again, dear garro, i indeed have a bad day everytime someone talks contemptiously about poor, cheap and uneducated people, but calls himself 'adjarn'.

i still have no intent to insult anyone who has good intentions, and if i did so with you, i beg your pardon, it only happens when i forget to weigh every word in the heat of an argument. please be reminded, that i belong to the vast majority of non-native english speakers here in thailand and you please use your advantage in being an english wizard and tell me when i make mistakes in misusing your beloved language.

you could start with telling me just one 'blatant stupid allegation' i have made in my 'rant' and i am eager to explain to you, what you may have misconceived....cu

[DragonQuest]

You cannot compare a Native English speaker with a Filipino speaker period. Thats like comparing a hot chick to grandma, a Ferrari to a ford, a chocolate sundae to a beetle. If a Filipino was born in a native speaking country he might have a chance to compete with a Native speaker, but never a F.O.B(Fresh off the boat). Scyriacus you make no sense, please give up and go away dude.

[KhaoNiaw]

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

You could perhaps still have made this case 10-20 years ago. English as a true international language is now well on the way to shedding its cultural origins. The English language literature of Africa and South Asia has gone far beyond its use as a means of expression against colonial repression. It is being successfully molded by writers and speakers to suit their own cultures. It won't be long before writers will be coming through who have no recollection of the colonial days or the immediate aftermath, and they will be using English to describe their world without needing references based in the 'native-speaking' countries.

The use of English as a means of communication between people who do not have it as their first language does not require an English tied to its cultural origins. The spread of English as a true international language has been due in part to its adaptability and flexibility. Yes, you may find a language that is functional and inelegant in many ways, but that will be where it fills a purely functional purpose - and that it is how it will be for most Thais.

[paully]

i did not say, that english is hard or difficult. in fact it's rather easy and hence the most used (and most abused) language in business and tourism.

although not a teacher myself, most thais say my english is better for them than that of most native speakers, because i use simple words, no idioms and speak slowly and well pronounced without chewing on my gums while i speak.

If that's true, how come so many Thais (and other nationals) struggle with it? English is quite a tricky language to master for a non-native speaker, particularly one from Asia: grammar rules which may or may not be used properly (Thais spend multiple years learning English grammar rules with little idea how to apply them), odd pronunciations and spellings, irregular verbs and endings which have to be memorised, etc.

Using 'simple words' and concepts ("when-you-go-home?") means that you are effectively dumbing down the language, which won't help Thais in the long run when dealing with English speakers (native or second language). There's a key difference between speaking simply and speaking clearly. Really learning a foreign language takes sustained effort, there are no short cuts or miracle instant techniques.

Edited July 16, 2008 by paully

[garro]

If you know about teaching a language, you know it is inseparable from teaching the culture it springs from, as if you could teach Mexican literature without Mexican history. English language without any cultural content at all, may indeed be what the TCT wants, a Thai-icated Angrit that knows nothing of England, America, Canada, etc. And Filipinos would Fili-cate Thailish.

You could perhaps still have made this case 10-20 years ago. English as a true international language is now well on the way to shedding its cultural origins. The English language literature of Africa and South Asia has gone far beyond its use as a means of expression against colonial repression. It is being successfully molded by writers and speakers to suit their own cultures. It won't be long before writers will be coming through who have no recollection of the colonial days or the immediate aftermath, and they will be using English to describe their world without needing references based in the 'native-speaking' countries.

The use of English as a means of communication between people who do not have it as their first language does not require an English tied to its cultural origins. The spread of English as a true international language has been due in part to its adaptability and flexibility. Yes, you may find a language that is functional and inelegant in many ways, but that will be where it fills a purely functional purpose - and that it is how it will be for most Thais.

I enjoyed this post and think it is well thought out but still I disagree with it. Yes, English is an international language but mostly this is due to the influence of the US. The rest of us native speakers are riding on the coat-tails of this.

None of my students have expressed any interest in the colonial history of English but are interested in speaking like the native speaker. They are not only interested in the actual language, but the culture and ideas that come with it -stories about Harry Potter or our songs and all the other things they find cool. I have never met a Thai student who claimed he wanted to learn English so that one day he/she could visit the Philippines - sorry.

[PeaceBlondie]

I will back-track slightly. You could teach Spanish and leave out the cultures of Spanish countries. However, surely in Thaiand, the textbooks I have seen are centered in English, American, Canadian culture, little of it colonial. I had to explain that the British lady in Atlanta had a front garden that her neighbors would have called lawn. Harry Potter is totally English, written by a British lady who once taught EFL. Hollywood makes movies in anglophone dialects and backgrounds. Even Shrek speaks American slang, doesn't he?

Yes, in another 20 or more years, English may be so international as to have lost its moorings. No more Shakespeare, Conrad (!), Hemingway, Studs Terkel, et al. But how come those British EFL textbooks have greengrocers in Kent who come from Pakistan?

But if the premise is already correct that you can teach language devoid of cultural context, let's take Thai culture out of Thai language teaching!!!

[KhaoNiaw]

I will back-track slightly. You could teach Spanish and leave out the cultures of Spanish countries. However, surely in Thaiand, the textbooks I have seen are centered in English, American, Canadian culture, little of it colonial. I had to explain that the British lady in Atlanta had a front garden that her neighbors would have called lawn. Harry Potter is totally English, written by a British lady who once taught EFL. Hollywood makes movies in anglophone dialects and backgrounds. Even Shrek speaks American slang, doesn't he?

Yes, in another 20 or more years, English may be so international as to have lost its moorings. No more Shakespeare, Conrad (!), Hemingway, Studs Terkel, et al. But how come those British EFL textbooks have greengrocers in Kent who come from Pakistan?

But if the premise is already correct that you can teach language devoid of cultural context, let's take Thai culture out of Thai language teaching!!!

I think you've missed my point.

I am not for one minute suggesting that Shakespeare, Hemingway, Rushdie or Achebe be vanquished. Or that British culture, Harry Potter, American slang or whatever is irrelevant to those who are interested in it or are going to be exposed to it.

But there is already much more to the English language, and in the future there will be still more to come from English globally. When Thai becomes a language used for communication between Russian and Mexican businessmen attending a conference in South Africa, then maybe the Thai cultural content will be somewhat diminished. The native English cultures will continue to flourish but will be supplemented and complemented by English from other parts of the world.

Nobody is taking British/American/Canadian culture out of English language teaching (which is perhaps one of the problems facing English language teaching in Thailand, admirably illustrated by the the Pakistani greengrocer in Kent. But EFL textbooks and teaching content and methodology is really a chicken/egg scenario). Nevertheless, the English language is developing quite nicely in many places without drawing on these cultures any longer. That is not to the detriment of the English language but enriches it culturally.

None of my students have expressed any interest in the colonial history of English but are interested in speaking like the native speaker. They are not only interested in the actual language, but the culture and ideas that come with it -stories about Harry Potter or our songs and all the other things they find cool.

If they find it cool then it's there for them to enjoy. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with enjoying Harry Potter. They also go crazy for songs sung in English by Korean pop stars. There's nothing wrong with that either.

Most Thai students wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an English native speaker and a competent non-native. If their ultimate goal is functional English for use in a job or for contact with people from a variety of countries, native and non-native, a competent non-native teacher should be able to do just as good a job as a native speaker.

I have never met a Thai student who claimed he wanted to learn English so that one day he/she could visit the Philippines - sorry.

My experience also.

But then I have met numerous former students who are now in jobs where they deal with customers and clients from Asian countries on a daily basis and never come into contact with anyone who might be tagged as a 'native speaker'.

Edited July 16, 2008 by KhaoNiaw

[PeaceBlondie]

Actually, until last year, it was clear that Thailand wanted native speakers to staff English programs. The TCT culture program and professional education test are not related to Anglo/American culture. I never heard a cogent argument that only native speakers can teach English in Thailand or elsewhere. A few Thais, Malays, Filipinos, Burmese, Egyptians, et al., are quite capable to teach fluently. I met a Black guy from some Pacific Island country who was fluent and effective. If the curriculum developers and EFL publishers print excellent non-Anglo textbooks, maybe they can sell a million copies to the MOE. If Thailand can develop general fluency in international English using Thais or Filipinos or Serbians, that would be fine. I met two unaccented Burmese ladies recently who might be excellent.

[mopenyang]

you wanna teach 'literature'? than 97% of thailand is not the right place for you, 97% have never seen a book, maybe some comics. you are so very elitist, you really must be frustrated.......

And you dare to call other people "elitist" with that kind of comment?

You are the one who needs to come off his high horse pretending to know all things about Thailand and Thais and obviously knowing next to nothing based on comments like the above.

it's a matter of fact that in most thai households there are more tv, cd, vcd, dvd and mobiles than books (literature). my statement did not criticize thai people for not having invented the print press. i did criticize those inventors who want to teach students foreign cultures. then they complain about the thai retaliation (see topic). most thais have done with the standard sentences: hey sexy man where you come from whats your name i want my money - in the tourist centers! here in the country down south they 'learn' english for 12 years, but cannot communicate in full sentences (spo). although i don't know all about thailand (as you obviously pretend for yourself by judging my knowledge) this i know from living up-country for more than nine years. would you wise guy then please tell me precisely, how many thais read 'literature' (and please do not count disney, potter and bruce lee as literature). you still owe me any serious argument.................

btw these facts are not frustrating to me, they constitute my very task to tell them about shakespeare & schiller, but first they wanna learn english. help them!

Sorry, but what you are saying does not warrant serious argument. It also does not warrant any more of my time.

Edited July 16, 2008 by mopenyang

[mrtoad]

Sorry, but if you want to start having a go at native speakers, then at least check some of your grammar and spelling.

sorry sir, i don't want to start having a go at native speakers (what a sentence! 'want start have go', i clearly can picture the beginners to browse their dictionaries: what does he want, where does he start, what does he have and where will that attack go to?). i just wonder, why i hit on this nerve with so many of you. i do want to talk about ways to encourage the average thai student to speak some english. i am neither a teacher nor a native english speaker, i just happen to love this country and its mostly pleasant people. would you please be so kind to correct my grammar and spelling, especially where it is misleading, instead of criticizing and cavil at lesser formalities. and please do use biased arguments, or you will simply be treated as one of those stuck-up snobbish native speakers (by far not all, but quite a few), who discourage their audience from having fun in communications.

Clealry you seem to have some issues with native speakers. Whilst you certainly didn't get the drift of my point, your initial rant about native speakers is based on the usual sweeping generalisations that so many people make.

You haven't hit on any nerve with me, I'm pretty sure that my pieces of white and cream paper are more than comparable with the non-native speakers who you are suggesting have a better understanding of the language. As for your comment about being "stuck up and snobbish", then I'll take that as a compliment.

BTW, I have worked with many Filipinos back in the UK and recruited a number of them for various healthcare establishments, and have found the majority them to be hard working, caring and professional people. However, many of them still struggle with the language complexaties, hence the reason that they need to produce an IELTS test score of 7.0, previously it was 6.5 to work in the nursing field. During my recruitment of overseas staff, we actually made it a point to not directly recruit from the Philippines, but to recruit from Singapore, becasue we found that the language abilities were higher due to more exposure to the English language on a day to day basis in a working environment.

It is no different in Thailand where there are many competent non-native teachers who have a good grasp of the language, although there are also a significant number who clearly have no idea about how to teach ESL or have a limited grasp of the language. The same could be said about native speakers, although I suspect that the changes in regulations have weeded out a number of the undesireables. In the school that I work in, we have a nice mix of native speakers, supported by non-native speakers. It certainly appears to work well, as the kids in our EP seem to do very well, and yes syricaus, they do have fun.

P.S. I cant be tossed to check my spelling and grammar today.

[Scott]

Some posts back I made a reference to 'worthless' teachers at my school. As I said, I was exaggerating.

There are a couple of problems with native speakers here in Thailand and the biggest one is that a lot of them fell into teaching as a way of staying in the country. They have limited knowledge of teaching, or language development or child development. A lot of them do quite OK in the classroom. They lack the knowledge base and strong professional committment that folks that have chosen the field. In general, they certainly can teach conversation.

The other problem that is rather pervasive in the education field is judgements are sometimes made about a teacher based soley on an approach that another person disagrees with. These judgements are quite subjective and lead to broad generalizations.

Different students are going learn in different ways and with different methods--unlike a lot of shops in Thailand "one size doesn't fit all."

[PeaceBlondie]

Scott, you mention a lack of knowledge base, as a factor that drags down a teacher's performance. That reminds me of what the international school tutors brag about - having a very broad, not too shallow, comprehensive knowledge of English, culture, common sense thinking, grammar and punctuation, vocabulary, world history, geography, etc. Anybody who lacks these knowledges is in for trouble, not knowing who the Nazis were, or how the seasons change in moderate climate zones, or a thousand more things that we tackle daily if teaching more than "look Janapat, see Sachapana run." So let me belatedly vote for a reasonable course in Thai culture reasonably taught by reasonable Thais. And seriously, an Anglo-North American-Antipodean culture course for Thais who teach EFL.

[garro]

I have found that most of my teaching tools have been discovered on the job. The classroom is the laboratory where the experiments are conducted. All education theory can really do is provide a new lingo in which to make the discoveries of our experiments sound more impressive. So while many westerners do fall into teaching in Thailand it is possible to learn to teach without a teaching background. I always find the claim that people fall into teaching in Thailand for other motives to be a strange criticism - after all if you asked most people why they ended up in their chosen career then they will likely have some strange answers.

An interesting book about teaching which I have recently read is 'Teacher Man' by Frank McCourt ( the old guy who wrote 'Angela's Ashes'.

[Xangsamhua]

I have found that most of my teaching tools have been discovered on the job. The classroom is the laboratory where the experiments are conducted. All education theory can really do is provide a new lingo in which to make the discoveries of our experiments sound more impressive.

I'm rather more sympathetic to theory than this, Garro. If the theory is based on valid research then it saves us having to reinvent the wheel or wade through the mud to discover things by trial and error.

If, for example, there is credible research showing that simply recasting a student's incorrect response has no effect, that's worth knowing. It saves us laboring over something for no good reason. If the theory tells us that bilingual education under certain conditions and over time helps develop an L2 without detriment to the L1 that might encourage me to try it. If research indicates that marking students' compositions is a complete waste of time (and there's been quite a debate over this in the past dozen years) I'd like to check it out and see what implications it has for my practice.

The discussions on TESL-L on things like the value of teaching grammar and vocabulary refer constantly to the research and, hence, to the theory. People's theories are contested, the research is looked at more closely and our understanding of why we do the things we do is enhanced.

Academic research can appear to be a bit removed and at times a bit peripheral, but it all adds up to better knowledge of what seems to work and why (and the contrary). Sure, the actual ecology of teaching, with its volatile mix of teacher, kids, lesson plan, physical location, time of day, temperature, etc etc can't be replicated in a controlled experiment or even ethnographic study and it's that classroom ecology that provides the real hands-on learning so necessary to teaching. However, without a good theory classroom practice would be just one thing after another, wouldn't it?

[junkofdavid2]

There are generally 2 types of Philippinos who come here... Of course it's not 'black and white' and there are those Philippinos who fall somewhere in between the 2 groups mentioned below:

1) The low-quality teachers, with bad accents and very little or no teaching value...

*Similarly, the cheap Farang (or better 'falang') "Ki-Nok" types who come to Thailand are also 'low class' other than their ability to 'speak' English. It is usually also this type of Falang who encounter this type of Philippinos here in item #1.

2) The upper classed highly educated Philippinos with no 'accent', who either own their own businesses or work at top executive posts in multi-national corporations in Thailand earning 100,000 to 1 Million baht per month, are often chauffeur driven and live in luxury serviced apartments in sukhumvit or sathorn (and often even bring their own Philipino servants/nannies with them; Sunbelt clients in fact!)... often these upper classed Philippinos are graduates of Ateneyo or Delasalle and/or US universities... If ever these types of Philippinos teach in Thailand, they normally only take jobs from the top schools/universities in Thailand, such as Chula, Thamassat, Abac and don't live completely on teacher salary, but get supplementary allowances from their rich parents back in the Philippines and live in Thailand for 'fun'. This group of Philippinos, similar to the Thai hi-so, also look down on Ki-Nok falang and don't associate with them.

*The farangs who encounter and work with this Philippino group in #2 are executives and/or highly educated themselves, and often have a high view of Philippinos and view such philippinos as highly educated Asians.

***

That's why on this thread, it's easy to know who the Ki-Nok 'falangs' are, and who are not.

Edited July 18, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[garro]

There are generally 2 types of Philippinos who come here... Of course it's not 'black and white' and there are those Philippinos who fall somewhere in between the 2 groups mentioned below:

1) The low-quality teachers, with bad accents and very little or no teaching value...

*Similarly, the cheap Farang (or better 'falang') "Ki-Nok" types who come to Thailand are also 'low class' other than their ability to 'speak' English. It is usually also this type of Falang who encounter this type of Philippinos here in item #1.

2) The upper classed highly educated Philippinos with no 'accent', who either own their own businesses or work at top executive posts in multi-national corporations in Thailand earning 100,000 to 1 Million baht per month, are often chauffeur driven and live in luxury serviced apartments in sukhumvit or sathorn (and often even bring their own Philipino servants/nannies with them; Sunbelt clients in fact!)... often these upper classed Philippinos are graduates of Ateneyo or Delasalle and/or US universities... If ever these types of Philippinos teach in Thailand, they normally only take jobs from the top schools/universities in Thailand, such as Chula, Thamassat, Abac and don't live completely on teacher salary, but get supplementary allowances from their rich parents back in the Philippines and live in Thailand for 'fun'. This group of Philippinos, similar to the Thai hi-so, also look down on Ki-Nok falang and don't associate with them.

*The farangs who encounter and work with this Philippino group in #2 are executives and/or highly educated themselves, and often have a high view of Philippinos and view such philippinos as highly educated Asians.

***

That's why on this thread, it's easy to know who the Ki-Nok 'falangs' are, and who are not.

Well done, you have got my vote for most offensive post of the week.