Ngv

[INTJ]

If I had forked out 60 or 70K or whatever on my NGV conversion, and had to refill every 200km I would be extremely annoyed about having to wait in a queue of 30 cars, trucks and buses for an hour in order to refuel.

I went past 2 stations and the queues were ridiculously long, out of the forecourt and right down the road.

I've never waited more than 5 mins to fill with LPG.

One of the biggest problems seems to be these coaches and trucks with multiple big tanks waiting with the cars.

[Cuban]

I've never waited more than 5 mins to fill with LPG.

So you made the right choice.

INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake... INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait combination of imagination and reliability.

[tigerbeer]

i am happy with my NGV conversion. It saves me close to 80%. maybe more with today's fuel prices.

never waited more than 15 minutes for a fill up except for one time in a stretch of few days when there was temporary shortage of NGV in chiang mai.

I am surprised that you did not know what you were getting into when you decided to convert to NGV. Its an excellent alternative fuel and give it some time for you to get used to using it. Which includes learning which stations you should go to avoid the big trucks. STations are going to double and so is the trucks that store CNG. Again give it some time. IMO, its the best way to go.

But its only my 2 satangs opinion against thousands of farangs who use LPG and speak better of it. Including yourself.

[Grant]

_{List and Location Map of Operating NGV™ Service Stations all over The Country}

http://innovation.pttplc.com/gisinfo/

[INTJ]

I am in no way gloating about making the right choice - I would like to buy another car and use NGV. But seeing the crazy long queues has completely put me off. Perhaps its different in Chiang Mai, but in Chonburi/Pattaya there were at least 30 vehicles waiting to fill up, including taxi-meters with tourists sat in the back, presumably on route from the airport.

Imagine that, after a 14 hour flight you have to sit in a queue at a petrol station for over an hour while the driver refuels.

I have a Thai friend with a Cefiro on NGV, he says several times now he has had to fill with 95 as can't afford the time waiting for the NGV. He is extremely p*ssed off with the Thai govt for promoting this alternative fuel without sufficient supply capability.

Cheers

[tigerbeer]

Sorry to hear about your experience INTJ, PTT has promised to increase their fueling stations and NGV delivery trucks so just hang in there. Filling up sometimes and using Benzene at least does save you some rather than not having an NGV tank at all. Its really alright I think in Bangkok and some other places like Chiang Mai. Too bad not the same case in Pattaya.

[gregb]

I will say I converted my first car 2 years ago to NGV, and it was an absolutely brilliant decision at the time. PTT paid 10k of the conversion, and there was NEVER a queue at the pump. I mean never. The attendants were bored most of the time. I saved a fortune in fuel bills and it was extremely convenient.

<RANT>

The situation is completely unacceptable now in Bangkok. Outside of Bangkok, not so bad. High prices for the conversion, up to 5 month backorders on tanks, hundred of busses and thousands of vans queueing for up to an hour to fill up their tanks.

PTT should be sued for false advertising. They imply they can actually provide this service. They clearly can not. They have claimed they'll be fixing the problem for over a year. They haven't and most likely never will. Demand has gotten so out of control they will never keep up with supply.

Oh, and for those of you who don't know....all those stations listed on the website above...don't make the mistake of actually thinking there is NGV at those stations! Heavan's no! Those are the locations of pumps! They're closed at least 80% of time you turn up because they were drained within 5 minutes of opening. Only the motherstations reliably have gas....those are the ones with the hour long queue in case you haven't guessed. I have the cell phone number of the closest NGV station to me. Only once out of 11 tries were they not empty when I called to check. That was last month by the way....after the supposed increases in trucks and fuel by the liars at PTT.

There is only 1 solution....float the NGV price. Use the extra money to refund the misled consumers who were duped into making the conversion. At higher prices demand will decrease and the pitiful services of PTT will be adequate.

</RANT>

Alas, under the current scenario, I would still choose NGV over LPG however because fuel is only 40% of the price. (8.5 baht/kg as opposed to about 22 baht). However, you pay alot for this savings in time. I waste at least 2 hours a week filling up. The savings over LPG is about 400 baht per week for me at today's prices, and over 800 baht vs. 91. Tomorrow it will be even more.

I have had an order in for a fuel tank to convert my new car for almost 4 months now. Still hasn't arrived. Not pushing it because I still can't even get white plates from the dealership. Save that rant for another thread. Blood is boiling already.

In the mean time, I keep using NGV because I can't afford not too. Other fuels, even LPG, are just too expensive.

Edited July 19, 2008 by gregb

[INTJ]

I converted to LPG two and a half years ago (when people stared at you not being a taxi), if I remember correctly the price then was 9.2 baht a litre. Everyone said I was stupid, how times change.

You say you can't afford to use LPG.........when I fill up now I pay 10 point something, marginally more than NGV. Where do you get 22 baht a litre from ? Are you talking about the anticipated rise in prices ?

By the way, NGV is expected to rise to 13 baht next year.

http://www.moneychannel.co.th/Menu8/SETTod...94/Default.aspx

Cheers

[JAS21]

</RANT>

Alas, under the current scenario, I would still choose NGV over LPG however because fuel is only 40% of the price. (8.5 baht/kg as opposed to about 22 baht).

Um..I paid 11.2Baht/Ltr a few days ago...gone up already has it..bug*er. two years ago I was paying less than 10baht/Ltr.

[sysmaster]

</RANT>

Alas, under the current scenario, I would still choose NGV over LPG however because fuel is only 40% of the price. (8.5 baht/kg as opposed to about 22 baht).

Um..I paid 11.2Baht/Ltr a few days ago...gone up already has it..bug*er. two years ago I was paying less than 10baht/Ltr.

With all the pro's an con's on LPG...NGV and costs, I made a few calculations to figure out

where the break-even point would be for price rizes in LPG:

These figures are based upon my car, of course different for others.

Tank capacity is what I can put into an empty tank, be it gasoline or LPG.

Gas++ is where the price of gas would have to be to result in a equal to gasoline price/km

based upon the current price of gasoline.

someone else will have to add a column for NGV, since I have no reliable data on that.

The ROI is the money I paid to have the car converted to LPG, the KM value is where

the investment has paid of, based on the price difference in [price/km]

With my millage, this will be within 6 months.

Of course all this is based upon today's prices for LPG and Gasoline, tomorrow will

be different.....

																   fuel		gas	 gas++
										   tank cap.			  56		43		43
										   consumption L/100KM	12		16		16

										   price /liter		   40		11.3	  30
										   price full tank	  2240	   485.9	1290
										   achievable distance   466	   268	   268  KM

										   price per KM		   4.8		1.8	  4.8

										   ROI		32000		12053.33KM

If I would also calculate the number of hours you have to waste to get a NGV tank filled....

The ROI might look VERY different.

Since filling time for gasoline or LPG are close to equal, I did not add this as a variable, for NGV you would have to take ((average hourly pay)X(fill time X tank runs)) or so.

[INTJ]

Thanks for simplifying things

[gregb]

You say you can't afford to use LPG.........when I fill up now I pay 10 point something, marginally more than NGV. Where do you get 22 baht a litre from ? Are you talking about the anticipated rise in prices ?

Um..I paid 11.2Baht/Ltr a few days ago...gone up already has it..bug*er. two years ago I was paying less than 10baht/Ltr.

That's a marketing ploy. LPG is sold by the liter, not the kg. It takes almost 2 liters to make 1 kg. (1 liter is actually only about 570 g) So you have to multiply the price you pay at the pump by 1.8 if you want to compare to CNG.

Haven't you guys ever noticed you pay MORE (about 18-20 baht/kg) if you buy a cooking gas cylinder? Ever wondered why? Now you know. Cooking gas cylinders sell LPG by by the kg. Auto pumps sell by the liter. The 2 are not the same thing.

So actually, at 11 baht/liter, it should be 19.8 baht/kg instead of 22. I just multiplied by 2 because I was lazy.

And yes, that does mean if you took 2 identical cars, put 1 kg of CNG in the first, and 1 liter of LPG in the other, the CNG car would go about 80% further before running out of fuel. I get 19 km/kg on CNG, but only 15.8 km/liter when running on traditional petrol. I would get somewhere around 11 km/liter from LPG.

Anyone considering the various conversions needs to understand this. Educate yourself.

[sysmaster]

Thanks for simplifying things

Not?

[Stef]

I have a Toyota Wish. I converted to LPG 2 months ago.

Before:

Consumption (Gasohol) is about the 9 L/100 km

Price = about THB 38 / L

Cost / km = THB 3.42 / km

After:

Consumption : about 12 L/100 km

Price = THB 11.29

Cost / km = THB 1.35 / km

[Plus]

We are looking at converting newish Camry to NGV. So far there isn't a single NGV station on its usual traveling route (about 100km per day).

Ok, there's one but it serves mostly buses, even taxies don't go there. There's another one 2km up the road in the wrong direction, they say you should show up at 6AM to get a worry free refill.

What we have in abundance is promises that stations will be everywhere very very real soon. By comparison I pass 8 lpg stations (not the same route, though).

I'm sure the day will come when LPG will be really expensive comparing to NGV, and pumps will be everywhere, but in the meantime LPG savings ticker keeps adding up four-five thousand baht a month.

[INTJ]

Gregb

"And yes, that does mean if you took 2 identical cars, put 1 kg of CNG in the first, and 1 liter of LPG in the other, the CNG car would go about 80% further before running out of fuel. I get 19 km/kg on CNG, but only 15.8 km/liter when running on traditional petrol. I would get somewhere around 11 km/liter from LPG"

Thats interesting information, thanks for taking the time to explain it. I had always thought/assumed that NGV was sold by the liter.

Cheers

[monty]

Sysmaster, you don't state what kind of installation you have, although at the price I assume it's the computer controlled injection system.

If so you'll need to bring in the car for a tune up.

After two or three tune ups all my cars run with a consumption of around 10% more then when running on petrol without noticeable loss of power.

It's never right the first time round, I always needed two to three return trips to the shop!

So worst case scenario you should not burn more then 14 liter/100km! It's very easy with LPG to over inject, when doing this the extra gas just goes through your engine unburnt, no extra power whatsoever...

As I stated several times, NGV is the better system, with two major drawbacks:

* Lack of filling stations, although if PTT keeps promises, fill up stations should become more abundant in the next 2 years.

* Range. NGV gives a usable range on smallish, fuel efficient Japanese cars. Count on a 200 - 220 km range. On bigger cars it gets a bit of a problem. The cars I drive (Nissan Cefiro and Volvo 245) would get around 160 km in the Nissan and 120 km in the Volvo. Totally and utterly unusable for me. (I get 350 km out of an LPG tank with the Volvo and almost 400 km with the Nissan).

On the routes I drive, that would mean a 30 km detour to fill up, resulting in me driving roughly 60% of my miles on petrol! Even with a filling station on my route, I'd still drive 25% of the time on petrol unless they put a filling station both sides of the highway. In which case I would have to fill up twice a day at lord knows how long a queue!

In general, when your car uses 9 liter/100km (11 km/liter) or less, NGV is a viable conversion, if you burn more, think twice.

For all those planning on conversions, do keep into account that both NGV and LPG prices will float to follow real market prices in the future (LPG pretty soon now, NGV prolly next year).

Currently that would put LPG at around 22 Baht/liter and NGV at around 13 Baht/kg.

[Plus]

There are two "market" prices for LPG - domestic LPG is cheaper than imported.

22bht/l - is it for domestic or imported LPG?

[sysmaster]

Sysmaster, you don't state what kind of installation you have, although at the price I assume it's the computer controlled injection system.

If so you'll need to bring in the car for a tune up.

After two or three tune ups all my cars run with a consumption of around 10% more then when running on petrol without noticeable loss of power.

It's never right the first time round, I always needed two to three return trips to the shop!

So worst case scenario you should not burn more then 14 liter/100km! It's very easy with LPG to over inject, when doing this the extra gas just goes through your engine unburnt, no extra power whatsoever...

Monty, I know, next week the car goes for it's regular check-up at Chevrolet, after that back to the gas-guy's for a new tune-up, and the 16 L., that's mostly a result of my heavy foot. A bit more sensitive driving brings that value down also. The number is basically "worst case scenario".....

I still didn't find the time to do a long distance trip, to see what is burned of then.

And yes, its a multipoint sequential injector system.

[monty]

There are two "market" prices for LPG - domestic LPG is cheaper than imported.

22bht/l - is it for domestic or imported LPG?

Imported LPG currently costs 920 US$/tonne, or 30,700 Baht/tonne, or 30.7 Baht/kg, or 17 Baht/liter (1kg LPG equals roughly 1,8 liters).

Local LPG I do not know the cost price of but would assume a lot cheaper, I think currently Thailand imports around 20% of their total LPG consumption. Not that long ago Thailand was a net exporter of LPG!

Since I do not know the cost of the local LPG, it's hard to say what the overall real cost price is currently, but I reckon around 12-15 Baht/liter.

Add to that taxes and retail profit margins, and 100% floated LPG should cost at a rough guess around 18-20 Baht/kg...

[Plus]

I don't think local LPG is a lot cheaper - after all it's made from imported oil to begin with.

I think the best option would be to reserve local LPG for cooking and cars and use imported LPG for power production.

[clausewitz]

There are two "market" prices for LPG - domestic LPG is cheaper than imported.

22bht/l - is it for domestic or imported LPG?

Imported LPG currently costs 920 US$/tonne, or 30,700 Baht/tonne, or 30.7 Baht/kg, or 17 Baht/liter (1kg LPG equals roughly 1,8 liters).

Local LPG I do not know the cost price of but would assume a lot cheaper, I think currently Thailand imports around 20% of their total LPG consumption. Not that long ago Thailand was a net exporter of LPG!

Since I do not know the cost of the local LPG, it's hard to say what the overall real cost price is currently, but I reckon around 12-15 Baht/liter.

Add to that taxes and retail profit margins, and 100% floated LPG should cost at a rough guess around 18-20 Baht/kg...

There is no difference in price between imported and the locally made as both have the same huge subsidy.

<H1>Lpg for vehicles set for price rise early next month

By Achara Deboonme

The Nation

Published on July 22, 2008

Experts warn government against subsidies after evidence they do not cut consumption

If things go as planned, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) for vehicles will rise in price early next month, while the price of the same gas for household use will be maintained until the end of next January.

While the government hopes the price hike will discourage the use of LPG in vehicles, energy industry experts say the increase is too small. Instead, they say the price should be raised across the board and measures introduced to help those affected.

Reports suggest LPG for vehicles, commonly known as autogas, could cost an additional Bt10 per kilogram, while its price for household use would remain at Bt18.13. At the present global price of US$920 (Bt30,700) per tonne, the retail price should be about $1.09 a kilogram, to reflect its actual cost. Filling up LPG tanks would then cost about Bt32 a litre (given that 1 kilogram equals 1.04 litres).

"People in Europe are asking me why Thailand has never learned from others' lessons. Subsidies result only in a steep state burden and do not lower energy consumption," said an energy expert who asked not to be named.

Around the world, LPG has been an attractive alternative energy, due to its cheaper price and cleaner exhaust emissions than petrol. Early this decade, the UK encouraged conversion of vehicles from petrol to LPG, foreseeing the rise in petrol prices. At that time, motorists were entitled to a $2,000 rebate on the cost of conversion, and a $1,000 rebate on new factory-fitted LPG vehicles.

However, in Thailand the government has never encouraged the use of LPG in vehicles, and it is easy to understand why. First, LPG - better known here as cooking gas and elsewhere among motorists as autogas - is hugely subsidised, because it is reserved mainly for household use. Second, Thailand is tapping its own vast reserves of natural gas. Since LPG is a petroleum by-product, it is better for a country where 90 per cent of crude oil is imported to cut those imports by switching to the locally sourced product.

Despite all of this, the government's heavy subsidies have boosted the use of LPG in vehicles, and even though the price is set to rise, Bangkok motorists continue to queue up at LPG stations. They say is it is more convenient to find an LPG filling station than one selling natural gas for vehicles (NGV), because most of these seem to be outside of the city area.

Based on the country's refining capacity for crude oil of 1 million barrels per day, LPG outputs from refineries vary from 5-8 per cent of this figure. About 7,000 tonnes of LPG per day also comes from gas-separation plants handling about 60,000 barrels of natural gas a day.

In all, Thailand's LPG output amounts to 3 million tonnes a year. However, demand has now risen to 3.5 million tonnes, and Thailand, which was once a net exporter of LPG, began importing the gas in April.

It is conservatively estimated that Thailand will import more than 300,000 tonnes of LPG this year and nearly 1 million tonnes next year if the government's subsidy remains in force.

PTT, the only importer of LPG, says so far it has not been affected financially by the yawning difference between the global price it pays and the domestic price it receives. However, with estimated unrealised losses from the LPG trade reaching Bt60 billion this year, there is no telling when PTT's burden will be cleared. Thailand was lucky to clear oil subsidies of nearly Bt90 billion in a year, but that concerns motorists and not household consumers, who are relatively poorer.

This situation would not have occurred if demand for LPG from vehicle-owners and industrial plants had not skyrocketed. Household consumption remains at 60 per cent of output.

Due to continuously rising oil prices - which in turn raises LPG prices - the previous government planned to end the LPG subsidy with a five-step plan. However, the plan never advanced beyond the first step.

The Samak Sundaravej government is also reluctant to lift the gas price for fear that household users will suffer. For a month, it has been working on measures to halt the conversion of vehicles to household gas.

Another energy expert agreed the price of LPG should be lifted across the board and that the move should be made now.

"If the government is concerned about household users, it could still subsidise their use, but in a different way," he said.

The expert suggested the government survey household gas consumption and offer a cut in electricity bills as a subsidy.

An Energy Ministry source said the government could give rebates to buyers returning gas tanks for new purchases. Alternatively, gas-tank receipts could be used to claim rebates from a bank.

It seems strategies like this must be pondered rather than measures to prevent the continuing conversion of vehicles to household gas. Only an across-the-board price increase will put a brake on the erroneous use of cooking gas to drive auto engines.

</H1>

[dotcom]

I might be wrong here BUT

You guys are getting hosed.

Liquid gas should be sold by weight not by volume. Why?

Because depending on the temperature the volume can be different.

Stand to be corrected.

[Heng]

On the upside, those of us still on benzene aren't having to wait in line at all. Given, before at most it was a 1-2 car queue...now it's first in line all the time it seems.

[Plus]

I might be wrong here BUT

You guys are getting hosed.

Liquid gas should be sold by weight not by volume. Why?

Because depending on the temperature the volume can be different.

Stand to be corrected.

I'm not sure it makes much difference when it's liquid and under pressure.

They sell cooking gas by kilograms, but at the pump it's by litre.

Pumps are imported, so it's not Thai indigenous trickery.

[dotcom]

Well let's clear up once & for all.

Thailand does have heaps of gas. I have been offshore to the platforms offshore Songkla.

These wells produce natural gas. Along with natural gas comes some amount of a clear liquid we call "condensate". A google search will explain to you what this liquid is. If I remember correctly Thailand was getting about 3000 barrels per day of thisa stuff which is not a huge amount.

Now the gas has to be shipped ashore by pipelines & to do that you install compressors on the various platforms to move the gas to shore. You also filter it to remove impurities.

Additionally Thailand buy gas from Burma. Primarily from Yadanna gas field offshore in the Andaman sea. This comes by pipeline to EGAT's turbines & is used to make electricity.

However most of Thailands electricity is made from lignite which is like coal but inferior to it.

So to say that all LNG is imported is incorrect.

Thailand has to import LNG because Uncle Joe Stalin had a subsidy on it. This was to convert the Bangkok gross polluting taxi's to clean burning fuel. That was a huge success. However every Tom Dick & Somchai decided to convert his Benz to take advantage of the cheap fuel. Ergo we find ourselves in the current mess.

CNG (or NGV) is great for busses because a massive tank is no problem on a massive chassis like a bus. However the current waiting times just show what a mess this has become.

[Plus]

It has become even muddier than before.

I have no idea what the "condensate" stuff that comes in liquified form is. I seriosly doubt it's the same gas we use in cars as it has to be kept under 7 bar pressure to stay liquid.

Domestic LPG comes from domestic oil refineries, it's a by product of refining crude oil, not "natural gas". The oil is, of course, imported.

With increased demand for LPG domestic production form local refineries became insufficient. That is where "imported LPG" comes in.

[tigerbeer]

On the upside, those of us still on benzene aren't having to wait in line at all. Given, before at most it was a 1-2 car queue...now it's first in line all the time it seems.

that would be an upside. yes .. lol !

Edited July 23, 2008 by tigerbeer

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Additionally Thailand buy gas from Burma. Primarily from Yadanna gas field offshore in the Andaman sea. This comes by pipeline to EGAT's turbines & is used to make electricity.

PTT, Total and Myanmar own the Yadana field, i have bee working there, and there is big PTT signs there.

[ebean001]

My NGV flips to gas when it should not. I pull to the side of the road, turn off engine, start again and it nomrally goes back to NGV....not all of the time.

Where can i get ngv fixed for my Toyota Altis in Chiang Mai?