Doggys And Horseys

[Jeddah Jo]

OK so my Thai is coming along and I try and pitch the tones at the right level but these two words I always seem to get wrong. When I want to say dog they think I am saying horse and when I want to say horse they think I am saying dog.

They are both long vowels right, and both rising. So I guess the only way to distinguish is what pitch you start from and how high you go.

Had it today, talking to some girls eating som dtam with horse crabs (poo maa). But of course I said dog crabs and they pulled a funny face and corrected me.

Then when I talk about horse racing kheng maa, I sometimes wonder if they think I mean dog racing.

No fair

[DocJD]

Yeah, the tones are sometimes tough to force into a habit. Keep working on it. You'll get there.

Still, that makes me think about how it will be if Thailand starts selling cars from China and India...

Salesman: "รถคันนี้ขายอันดับหนึ่งนะเพ่! ดูเนี้ย...เครื่องยนต์เนี้ยแรงสุดขั้วเลย มีเกิน 500 แรงหมานะเนี่ย"

[eefoo]

OK so my Thai is coming along and I try and pitch the tones at the right level but these two words I always seem to get wrong. When I want to say dog they think I am saying horse and when I want to say horse they think I am saying dog.

They are both long vowels right, and both rising. So I guess the only way to distinguish is what pitch you start from and how high you go.

Had it today, talking to some girls eating som dtam with horse crabs (poo maa). But of course I said dog crabs and they pulled a funny face and corrected me.

Then when I talk about horse racing kheng maa, I sometimes wonder if they think I mean dog racing.

No fair

No they're not! Long vowels, yes, but not the same tone. หมา (dog) is a rising tone (High class consonant ห at the start) and ม้า (horse) is a high tone. You could always get over the problem by using the other word for dog - สุนัข (sunak)

[Jeddah Jo]

No they're not! Long vowels, yes, but not the same tone. หมา (dog) is a rising tone (High class consonant ห at the start) and ม้า (horse) is a high tone. You could always get over the problem by using the other word for dog - สุนัข (sunak)

I disagree ม้า (horse) also has a rising tone at the end. Admittedly the tone starts higher but if you listen to Thai people say the word it is not a constant high tone. It starts high and then goes higher still! Similar to dog but that starts at a lowish tone and ends up mid-tone.

JJ.

[Chaimai]

Largely irrelevant. but I tried to explain "in the dog house".

Does that translate in Thai and transliteration,

[eefoo]

No they're not! Long vowels, yes, but not the same tone. หมา (dog) is a rising tone (High class consonant ห at the start) and ม้า (horse) is a high tone. You could always get over the problem by using the other word for dog - สุนัข (sunak)

I disagree ม้า (horse) also has a rising tone at the end. Admittedly the tone starts higher but if you listen to Thai people say the word it is not a constant high tone. It starts high and then goes higher still! Similar to dog but that starts at a lowish tone and ends up mid-tone.

JJ.

As you wish. Personally I have never heard it as any kind of a rising tone, the tone rules have it as a high tone, and in saying it as such I have never caused any confusion with dog. I have been the source of much amusement at my expense by mixing up other words/tones, but not these two.

[DocJD]

I disagree ม้า (horse) also has a rising tone at the end. Admittedly the tone starts higher but if you listen to Thai people say the word it is not a constant high tone. It starts high and then goes higher still! Similar to dog but that starts at a lowish tone and ends up mid-tone.

JJ.

I agree with this. It's called a "high tone," but you are correct--it's not a flat high tone. It in fact starts off high and then goes even higher.

[Rikker]

The pitch rises slightly in what is called a "high tone", yes. But significantly less.

To put it in words, briefly:

The "rising tone" starts low and rises to middle/medium-high.

The "high tone" starts high and becomes slightly higher.

Using the Chao scale, which uses the number 1-5 to indicate relative pitch levels for a given speaker, we might say "rising tone" is a 13 (that is, starts at 1 and rises to 3) or a 24. Whereas "high tone" would probably be 45.

For comparison, Thai "mid tone" would be 33 (starts at 3, ends at 3--a level tone). "Low tone" would be 21 (slight drop in pitch). I'd say "falling tone" is 53.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Rikker

[Jeddah Jo]

The pitch rises slightly in what is called a "high tone", yes. But significantly less.

To put it in words, briefly:

The "rising tone" starts low and rises to middle/medium-high.

The "high tone" starts high and becomes slightly higher.

Using the Chao scale, which uses the number 1-5 to indicate relative pitch levels for a given speaker, we might say "rising tone" is a 13 (that is, starts at 1 and rises to 3) or a 24. Whereas "high tone" would probably be 45.

For comparison, Thai "mid tone" would be 33 (starts at 3, ends at 3--a level tone). "Low tone" would be 21 (slight drop in pitch). I'd say "falling tone" is 53.

Thanks for that, it is an excellent way to explain the pitch levels.

It is all my fault with ม้า (horse), because I start too high at 5 and then try and go higher but my voice cracks and it sounds like someone strangling a cat (แมว)

JJ.

[meadish_sweetball]

The rising tone in fact dips low slightly before it rises, and the following rise is steep and rather rapid.

The high tone rises slowly, and not very much. Having a somewhat 'strained' sound for the long high tone is not necessarily wrong, some Thais sound like that too when they pronounce it clearly. Just make sure the rise is not too rapid and/or steep.

[siamesekitty]

if you're good with music (eg. a good singer, usually in tune), you might be able to think of the tones as similar to singing. or if you have a musical instrument, such as a piano, try figuring out (or have someone show you) what notes the tones would use.

[mangkorn]

Try to practice different tones with your mouth closed, forgetting the consonants for the moment.

Seriously: when I was struggling with putting similar words with different tones together, my teacher did just that, with her mouth closed.

And it was like the fog had suddenly cleared and the sun shone brightly.

I never forgot that brilliant teaching method.

[kriswillems]

It has been posted a few times on other threads, but here it is again:

http://slice-of-thai.com/tones/

With the frequency voice analyser software you can visualize how you pronounce your tones, so you can practise by yourself and get immediate feedback. It's a great tool and it really works.

[scifi]

Jeddah Jo, I think you mean ปูนา (bpoo naa) in the ส้มตำ: field crabs (or paddy crabs). Horse crabs (or horseshoe crabs) would be แมงดาทะเล.

[5tash]

Jeddah Jo, I think you mean ปูนา (bpoo naa) in the ส้มตำ: field crabs (or paddy crabs). Horse crabs (or horseshoe crabs) would be แมงดาทะเล.

ปูม้า horse crab.

แมงดาทะเล horseshoe crab.

Subtle differences. ปูม้า is the one found in ส้มตำ.

[scifi]

Oops, my mistake. Sorry Jeddah Jo. Perhaps I just invented a new recipe.

Edited August 4, 2008 by scifi

[kriswillems]

If they put ปูม้า in your ส้มตำ you probably went to eat in a very nice restaurant (ปูม้า is expensive).

The ส้มตำ that you eat in most small shops besides the street or that you buy from the walking sellers has ปูนา in it.

People only eat the eggs (no meat) of แมงดาทะเล, with yam for instance.

[meadish_sweetball]

People only eat the eggs (no meat) of แมงดาทะเล, with yam for instance.

Highly overrated dish in my experience. The eggs have no real taste, they're just mushy and 'fatty'.

[Jeddah Jo]

If they put ปูม้า in your ส้มตำ you probably went to eat in a very nice restaurant (ปูม้า is expensive).

The ส้มตำ that you eat in most small shops besides the street or that you buy from the walking sellers has ปูนา in it.

People only eat the eggs (no meat) of แมงดาทะเล, with yam for instance.

Really not too bad. One portion som dtam bpoo maa, one portion som dtam Thai, one piece grilled chicken and 4 pork satay sticks was only 140 baht. Mind you a Thai girl ordered, I just paid

The horse crab looked mighty fine too, but I never touch the stuff

JJ.