เมื่อ , เมื่อไร , เมื่อกอน

[Lithobid]

I understand the first two

เมื่อ - When

เมื่อผมไปเทียวผมชอบขับรถ - When I go out I like to drive a car.

เมื่อไร - Question refering to time.

เราจะไปร้านอาหารเมื่อไร - When will we goto the restaraunt.

But the third is what tricks me in understanding. Today the teacher gave us an example

E.X.

จีจีเป็นชื่อ

เมื่อจีจีเป็นเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว - When jiji was a child she liked to eat rice.

My question: Why don't you use เมื่อกอน because jiji is an adult and that was a long time ago.

The teachers answer was เมื่อกอน is ok, but it means that now jiji dosen't like to eat rice.

i.e.

จีจีเมื่อกอนชอบกินข้าวแตดอนนี้เธอไม่ชอบกิน

Is this similar to (used to + verb) in English showing a past action not true now? Examples and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Lithobid

Edited July 31, 2008 by Lithobid

[anthonyu]

I'm guessing you're at an early stage in learning thai and you haven't learnt other words yet so your teacher is trying to find you ways to use เมื่อ as a past tense.

เมื่อ doesn't actually translate to "when" in the literal sense....it's more like before and its almost never used in the present tense.

if you want to say "when" the more appropriate term to use should be เวลา or "wee la" so if saying i like to drive when i go out, it sounds more like เวลาผมไปเทียว ผมชอบขับรถ.

another term you could use for "when" is ตอน or "ton" which refers to the past tense so the sentence JiJi liked to eat rice when she was young would read ตอนเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว.

[Lithobid]

I'm guessing you're at an early stage in learning thai and you haven't learnt other words yet so your teacher is trying to find you ways to use เมื่อ as a past tense.

เมื่อ doesn't actually translate to "when" in the literal sense....it's more like before and its almost never used in the present tense.

if you want to say "when" the more appropriate term to use should be เวลา or "wee la" so if saying i like to drive when i go out, it sounds more like เวลาผมไปเทียว ผมชอบขับรถ.

another term you could use for "when" is ตอน or "ton" which refers to the past tense so the sentence JiJi liked to eat rice when she was young would read ตอนเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว.

I understand เวลา - Refers to the present tense, and เมื่อ for past tense, but what's the difference between เมื่อ and เมื่อกอน?

[anthonyu]

I'm guessing you're at an early stage in learning thai and you haven't learnt other words yet so your teacher is trying to find you ways to use เมื่อ as a past tense.

เมื่อ doesn't actually translate to "when" in the literal sense....it's more like before and its almost never used in the present tense.

if you want to say "when" the more appropriate term to use should be เวลา or "wee la" so if saying i like to drive when i go out, it sounds more like เวลาผมไปเทียว ผมชอบขับรถ.

another term you could use for "when" is ตอน or "ton" which refers to the past tense so the sentence JiJi liked to eat rice when she was young would read ตอนเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว.

I understand เวลา - Refers to the present tense, and เมื่อ for past tense, but what's the difference between เมื่อ and เมื่อกอน?

You could consider เมื่อ to be a particle or linking word. By itself it doesn't mean anything really but needs another word to make sense.

เมื่อกอน - before (long time)

เมื่อกี้ - just now

เมื่อวาน - yesterday

hope that helps.

[DocJD]

เมื่อก่อน is best transleted as "before." as in

ผมไม่เคยทานอะไรแบบนี้เมื่อก่อน (I've never eaten anything like this before).

เคยโดนว่าแบบนี้เมื่อก่อนด้วย (I've also been spoken to like this before).

เมื่อก่อนเขาผมยาว (He used to have long hair).

เมื่อ 3 ปีก่อน (3 years ago).

ทำไมไม่ยอมบอกฉันเมื่อก่อน (Why didn't you tell me before?)

เมื่อวันก่อน (the day before)

OK, don't get hung up on all this. Just note that เมื่อก่อน means "before" for all purpose sake.

So look at your question:

เมื่อจีจีเป็นเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว When Jiji was a kid, she liked to eat rice.

เมื่อก่อน (ตอน)จีจีเป็นเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว Before, when Jiji was a kid, she liked to eat rice.

You could say that the use of the word "before" in the second sentence would imply that Jiji once liked rice, but now does not. So it's a bit of a language similarity between and English and Thai.

Hope this helps. Keep studying.

[anthonyu]

ทำไมไม่ยอมบอกฉันเมื่อก่อน (Why didn't you tell me before?)

If I had a baht for everytime some woman said this to me, I'd be rich...

Then again better make it 10 baht

[Lithobid]

เมื่อก่อน is best transleted as "before." as in

ผมไม่เคยทานอะไรแบบนี้เมื่อก่อน (I've never eaten anything like this before).

เคยโดนว่าแบบนี้เมื่อก่อนด้วย (I've also been spoken to like this before).

เมื่อก่อนเขาผมยาว (He used to have long hair).

เมื่อ 3 ปีก่อน (3 years ago).

ทำไมไม่ยอมบอกฉันเมื่อก่อน (Why didn't you tell me before?)

เมื่อวันก่อน (the day before)

OK, don't get hung up on all this. Just note that เมื่อก่อน means "before" for all purpose sake.

So look at your question:

เมื่อจีจีเป็นเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว When Jiji was a kid, she liked to eat rice.

เมื่อก่อน (ตอน)จีจีเป็นเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว Before, when Jiji was a kid, she liked to eat rice.

You could say that the use of the word "before" in the second sentence would imply that Jiji once liked rice, but now does not. So it's a bit of a language similarity between and English and Thai.

Hope this helps. Keep studying.

DocJD This explanation really helps, it's quite clear. Thanks.

[Johpa]

I'm guessing you're at an early stage in learning thai and you haven't learnt other words yet so your teacher is trying to find you ways to use เมื่อ as a past tense.

เมื่อ doesn't actually translate to "when" in the literal sense....it's more like before and its almost never used in the present tense.

if you want to say "when" the more appropriate term to use should be เวลา or "wee la" so if saying i like to drive when i go out, it sounds more like เวลาผมไปเทียว ผมชอบขับรถ.

another term you could use for "when" is ตอน or "ton" which refers to the past tense so the sentence JiJi liked to eat rice when she was young would read ตอนเด็กๆจีจีชอบกินข้าว.

I understand เวลา - Refers to the present tense, and เมื่อ for past tense, but what's the difference between เมื่อ and เมื่อกอน?

You could consider เมื่อ to be a particle or linking word. By itself it doesn't mean anything really but needs another word to make sense.

เมื่อกอน - before (long time)

เมื่อกี้ - just now

เมื่อวาน - yesterday

hope that helps.

I don't see a big difference between using เมื่อ vs เมื่อกอน, I see the main contrast as one of focus. เมื่อกอน is used more to contrast two different time periods whereas เมื่อ is used more to focus on something with less emphasis on a contrast with a more current status. As Thai tends to be more a topic focused language than a subject focused language we get:

เมื่อจีจีเป็นเด็ก When Gigi was a child

เมื่อก่อน (ตอน)จีจีเป็นเด็ก During the time when Gigi was a child (as compared to the current time)

For a beginning Thai student I would say ignore the subtle differences, you need to choose your battles here. You can quickly go bananas trying to define this as a difference in tense or aspect.

[kriswillems]

เมื่อก่อน (ตอน)จีจีเป็นเด็ก During the time when Gigi was a child (as compared to the current time)

....

For a beginning Thai student I would say ignore the subtle differences

I think ตอน is not optional here.

เมื่อก่อนตอน(ที่)จีจีเป็นเด็ก, Before, when Gigi was a child.

เมื่อก่อนจีจีเป็นเด็ก Before Gigi was a child

I wouldn't call that a subtle difference.

Edited July 31, 2008 by kriswillems

[DocJD]

I think ตอน is not optional here.

เมื่อก่อนตอน(ที่)จีจีเป็นเด็ก, Before, when Gigi was a child.

เมื่อก่อนจีจีเป็นเด็ก Before Gigi was a child

I wouldn't call that a subtle difference.

That's a good point, Kris. Using ตอน will depend on the circumstance. If Jiji is a child still today then you wouldn't use ตอน. If Jiji is no longer a child today, you would use ตอน.

เมื่อก่อน จีจีเป็นเด็ก(ที่)ชอบทานข้าว <== this sentence could impliy that jiji is still a child.

เมื่อก่อน ตอนจีจีเป็นเด็ก ๆ จิจิชอบทานข้าว <== this sentence implies jiji is no longer a child.

This thread gets more and more confusing, doesn't it.

Edited July 31, 2008 by DocJD

[thithi]

just use เมื่อก่อน [before] to describe the past.

and เมื่อ we can use it both in past and present.

when we use it in past, there will always be Past words or Past Tense follow เมื่อ to describe the period/point of time : เมื่อก่อน [before], เมื่อวาน [yesterday], เมื่อคืน [last night], เมื่อตอนเช้า [in the morning], etc.

so เมื่อ ่just means When in English used to compound 2 sentences together.[Conjunction]

Edited August 1, 2008 by thithi

[Lithobid]

just use เมื่อก่อน [before] to describe the past.

and เมื่อ we can use it both in past and present.

when we use it in past, there will always be Past words or Past Tense follow เมื่อ to describe the period/point of time : เมื่อก่อน [before], เมื่อวาน [yesterday], เมื่อคืน [last night], เมื่อตอนเช้า [in the morning], etc.

so เมื่อ ่just means When in English used to compound 2 sentences together.[Conjunction]

Thithi, I like this explanation, it's also easy to understand. Though where does ตอน fit in, is it = to เมื่กอน?

And on a different note, how to use when for future, i.e. We will go when it stops raining?

เราจะไปเวลาฝนไม่ตก??? ถุกไม่??

[kriswillems]

เมื่อก่อน จีจีเป็นเด็ก(ที่)ชอบทานข้าว <== this sentence could impliy that jiji is still a child.

This thread gets more and more confusing, doesn't it.

mmm, I don't agree this sentence implies that djidji is still a child, but I might be wrong.

เมื่อก่อน จีจีเป็นเด็ก(ที่)ชอบทานข้าว: Before djidji was a child that liked to eat rice. This just implies that at this time she is not "a child that likes to eat rice" any more. If at this moment she is a child or not is not known. If at this moment she likes to eat rice or not is not known.

เมื่อก่อน ตอนจีจีเป็นเด็ก ๆ จิจิชอบทานข้าว: Before, when dji dji was a child, she liked to eat rice: This sentence implies that she is not a child any more. If at this moment she likes to eat rice is not known.

[thithi]

ตอน which is always put after เมื่อ used for specify the point of time, of course in the past.

but only a word ตอน can be all Present, past and future

i.e. เมื่อวานตอนเย็น [yesterday evening] , เมื่อตอนที่เรากำลังกินข้าว [when we were eating..] , etc - Past

I.E.- ตอนเย็นเราจะไปกินข้าวกัน we are going to have dinner this evening. - using ตอน*

and for the future, in the i.e. u gave me. i would say..

เราจะไปตอนฝนหยุดตก*

เราจะไปเมื่อฝนหยุดตก

or เราจะไปเมื่อตอนฝนหยุดตก

using เวลา ... mmm.. let me give u i.e.

เวลาจะไปไหน อย่าไปคนเดียว when u r going to somewhere don't go alone.

we dnt use เมื่อ na cos เวลา is spoken language. it's used sometimes. u cant replace เมื่อ by เวลา all the time.

Edited August 1, 2008 by thithi

[kriswillems]

And on a different note, how to use when for future, i.e. We will go when it stops raining?

เราจะไปเวลาฝนไม่ตก??? ถุกไม่??

เราจะไปเวลาฝนไม่ตก : We will go when it doesn't rain (any time when it doesn't rain, doesn't have to be immediately after it stops raining)

I think these 2 are better:

เราจะไปเวลาฝนไม่ตกแล้ว : We will go when it doesn't rain any more

เราจะไปเวลาฝนหยุดตก : We will go when it stops raining

edit: oh, Thithi was faster

Edited August 1, 2008 by kriswillems

[DocJD]

mmm, I don't agree this sentence implies that djidji is still a child, but I might be wrong.

You're absolutely right, Kris. Admittenly, I was a bit sneaky with you though. I used the term "could imply."

เมื่อก่อน จีจีเป็นเด็ก(ที่)ชอบทานข้าว <== this sentence could impliy that jiji is still a child.

Ok, so that was being a bit sneaky. Sorry for that. You are correct though; it doesn't mean that Jiji is necessarily a kid today.

And on a different note, how to use when for future, i.e. We will go when it stops raining?

In this sentence, it's common to hear the word พอ as in พอฝนหยุด (when it stops raining). You could also say เมื่อฝนหยุด. And perhaps you can even say เวลาฝนหยุด.

So here's my translation of your sentence (keep in mind, there are other ways to say it). พอฝนหยุดแล้ว พวกเราถึงจะไปกัน

Edited August 1, 2008 by DocJD

[thithi]

though i edited a lot... lol

get confused sometimes though i'm Thai LMAO!

[DocJD]

though i edited a lot... lol

get confused sometimes though i'm Thai LMAO!

Thank you for your help, Thithi!

[kriswillems]

I think there is no clear rule behind it but I've the impression that:

เวลา is mostly used for things that happen regularly (like whenever in English) or that happen over a period of time.

But I think it's not really wrong if you use it in other cases.

[thithi]

there is no def, rule for using เวลา. it's more like using some senses to choose the words when we speak.

any words, thai will understand. some will correct you though.

believe me, though i'm Thai sometimes i got into trouble when talking to the others and the older people. :S

maybe because i speak too much English =.=' hehehe

oh and most welcome ka Khun DocJD

*if u r nto sure about using เวลา i suggest u to use ตอน much better ans easier

Edited August 1, 2008 by thithi

[Lithobid]

there is no def, rule for using เวลา. it's more like using some senses to choose the words when we speak.

any words, thai will understand. some will correct you though.

believe me, though i'm Thai sometimes i got into trouble when talking to the others and the older people. :S

maybe because i speak too much English =.=' hehehe

oh and most welcome ka Khun DocJD

*if u r nto sure about using เวลา i suggest u to use ตอน much better ans easier

Thanks everyone for your help, I talked with my instructors again today, and came away with the impression that เวลา เมื่อ มื่อกอน although have individual seperate meanings, can be interchanges, especially through the spoken language, and your not commiting a huge infraction by using one or the other, and for the most part you will be understood.

I personally put this in the same category of เธอ , เขา , ฉัน I know that they have specific usage rules, but at my current level, I don't bother to learn them because they can for the most part be used interchangeably. I always have to keep reminding myself that there are never going to be 100% clear cut definitions for usages between English and Thai, and the more I strive to pin point them, usualy, the more time I waste. So here's to returning to "going with the flow" and I'm sure I'll be able to explain these usages better to myself, , Someday....

Thanks All

Lithobid

[kriswillems]

Thanks everyone for your help, I talked with my instructors again today, and came away with the impression that เวลา เมื่อ มื่อกอน although have individual seperate meanings, can be interchanges, especially through the spoken language, and your not commiting a huge infraction by using one or the other, and for the most part you will be understood.

I personally put this in the same category of เธอ , เขา , ฉัน I know that they have specific usage rules, but at my current level, I don't bother to learn them because they can for the most part be used interchangeably. I always have to keep reminding myself that there are never going to be 100% clear cut definitions for usages between English and Thai, and the more I strive to pin point them, usualy, the more time I waste. So here's to returning to "going with the flow" and I'm sure I'll be able to explain these usages better to myself, , Someday....

Thanks All

Lithobid

เมื่อ and เมื่อกอน are not interchangeable. They have different meanings.

เมื่อ : when

เมื่อกอน : before

Words that are very similar and sometimes interchangeable are: เมื่อ เวลา ตอน

Edited August 4, 2008 by kriswillems

[Lithobid]

Thanks everyone for your help, I talked with my instructors again today, and came away with the impression that เวลา เมื่อ มื่อกอน although have individual seperate meanings, can be interchanges, especially through the spoken language, and your not commiting a huge infraction by using one or the other, and for the most part you will be understood.

I personally put this in the same category of เธอ , เขา , ฉัน I know that they have specific usage rules, but at my current level, I don't bother to learn them because they can for the most part be used interchangeably. I always have to keep reminding myself that there are never going to be 100% clear cut definitions for usages between English and Thai, and the more I strive to pin point them, usualy, the more time I waste. So here's to returning to "going with the flow" and I'm sure I'll be able to explain these usages better to myself, , Someday....

Thanks All

Lithobid

เมื่อ and เมื่อกอน are not interchangeable. They have different meanings.

เมื่อ : when

เมื่อกอน : before

Words that are very similar and sometimes interchangeable are: เมื่อ เวลา ตอน

Kris I get what your saying, but my teachers are telling me that they are interchangeable, and what I've taken that to mean is with the amount of Thai that I understand at this time, I can use them interchangeably, although as I advance, I will see more clearly when which is more appropriate or correct though right now I won't be able to understand it due to my limited understanding of the language.

Although I may be wrong, was it this way for things when you first started learning??

[LS7]

When = เมื่อตอนที่

I went to London when I was 10 years old.

ฉันไปลอนดอนเมื่อตอนที่ฉันอายุสิบขวบ

------------------

When ___ ? = เมื่อไร ___ = ___ เมื่อไร

When will he arrive at the party?

เขาจะมาถึงปาร์ตี้เมื่อไร

or

เมื่อไรเขาจะมาถึงปาร์ตี้

------------------

Before = ก่อนที่

You should leave this place before Mary arrives.

คุณควรจะออกจากที่นี่ ก่อนที่แมรี่จะมาถึง

------------------

เมื่อก่อน = In the past, Before now

เมื่อก่อน ผมชอบไปกินข้าวเย็นที่สยาม

In the past, I liked to have dinner at Siam.

------------------

Hope this help.