The Wife May Lose Her Green Card

[tuffy]

I haven't seen this problem pop up yet here on TV, maybe it has and I missed it.

Here is the deal, the wife lived with me in the USA long enough to get her Green Card, then we decided to move back to LOS.

Now when she goes back if it's not more than every 5 months or so she is going to lose it.

Are there any American's out there that have had to deal with this.

Is it possible to get her citizenship while still living here most of the time . I don't want to move back to be honest, But I don't want her to lose he right to go back either.

Any insights?

[tuffy]

OPS, The Title should be "The" not "He" Wife.....she might get pissed if she reads this!

[Tywais]

OPS, The Title should be "The"

Fixed.

[flying]

I haven't seen this problem pop up yet here on TV, maybe it has and I missed it.

Here is the deal, the wife lived with me in the USA long enough to get her Green Card, then we decided to move back to LOS.

Now when she goes back if it's not more than every 5 months or so she is going to lose it.

Are there any American's out there that have had to deal with this.

Is it possible to get her citizenship while still living here most of the time . I don't want to move back to be honest, But I don't want her to lose he right to go back either.

Any insights?

Hi

I recently had been reading about this too....

INFO

Maintaining Permanent Residence

Maintaining Permanent Residence You may lose your permanent residence status if you commit an act that makes you removable from the United States under the law in section 237 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. If you commit such an act, you may be brought before the immigration courts to determine your right to remain a Permanent Resident.

You may be found to have abandoned your permanent resident status if you:

• Move to another country intending to live there permanently.
  
• Remain outside of the US for more than one year without obtaining a reentry permit or returning resident visa. However in determining whether your status has been abandoned any length of absence from the US may be considered, even if it is less than one year.
  
• Remain outside of the US for more than two years after issuance of a reentry permit without obtaining a returning resident visa. However in determining whether your status has been abandoned any length of absence from the US may be considered, even if it is less than one year.
  
• Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the US for any period.
  
• Declare yourself a “nonimmigrant” on your tax returns.
  

[tuffy]

Actually this last time back she applied for the re-entry permit but so we should be good for the next couple years....just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this problem by applying for citizenship while living in LOS?

[jimmym40]

I personally know a thai man who lived in the states for at least 10 yrs. He decided to go live in Thailand, but came back to the states once a year. After his 2nd or 3rd trip back, US immigration stopped him, reviewed his travels/stays, and told him if he stays out of the US more than six months a year, he would loose his green card. So, as you put it, the law states, even if the time spend in the states is less than 1 yr, they still can take away the green card for less time period abstences.

As far as obtaining US citizenship while in LOS, I don't believe it would be possible. My guess as a minimum you would need a US mailing address, file US income taxes, and be available for any interviews in the states. Maybe someone else can share their experiences in this regard.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

I personally know a thai man who lived in the states for at least 10 yrs. He decided to go live in Thailand, but came back to the states once a year. After his 2nd or 3rd trip back, US immigration stopped him, reviewed his travels/stays, and told him if he stays out of the US more than six months a year, he would loose his green card. So, as you put it, the law states, even if the time spend in the states is less than 1 yr, they still can take away the green card for less time period abstences.

As far as obtaining US citizenship while in LOS, I don't believe it would be possible. My guess as a minimum you would need a US mailing address, file US income taxes, and be available for any interviews in the states. Maybe someone else can share their experiences in this regard.

The "Green Card" stands for being a PRA, or Permanent Resident Alien, not one who lives back in their birth country and uses it for convenience in visiting the U.S.  Thus, yes, CIS/ICS/INS can and does pull Green Cards on some returning "foreign " resident Green Card holders.  Strange as that may seem, that's the rules.

I have a good friend here with a Green Card, he's getting older and can't really afford medical expenses in Stockton when staying with his AmCit daughter.  We talked about this a couple months ago and he's probably going to hit the Consulate in C. Mai and fill out a form I-407 relinquishing the Green Card, then apply for a 10-year tourist visa.  That'll suit his needs, back here then still free to visit his daughter & family in the U.S.

Regarding U.S. citizenship, there's a residency requirement to be in the USA itself for a certain period of time, three to five years, depending on the circumstances.  This is for regular folks, there are exceptions for some small groups of people who live overseas working such as US Government employees.

Mac

[tuffy]

Thanks for the replies. So far the info I have gotten is definitely not want I wanted to hear! It is 100% correct but I was really hoping that I would get lucky and some one would have a fool proof way to beat the system or at least a way around it! As hard as green cards are becoming to get I really don't want to have her lose it.

[flying]

Thanks for the replies. So far the info I have gotten is definitely not want I wanted to hear! It is 100% correct but I was really hoping that I would get lucky and some one would have a fool proof way to beat the system or at least a way around it! As hard as green cards are becoming to get I really don't want to have her lose it.

I know just how you feel. It is hard & a long process to get the green card.

Then you find out you can have it taken away if you give the impression you are maintaining two residences.

I guess the only thing to do is keep the visits to a couple months total for the first three years. Then once a US citizen no problem.

Funny eh? Once your a US citizen you can go anytime

The hard part is many who marry Thai/US are able to live in both places but cannot do so till US citizenship is established.

I read a few stories here too

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php

Just search the green card section with maintaing green card.

[steffi]

She will always have this problem until she becomes a citizen. I know because that's where I am now with my wife.

The longer she remains outside the US the longer you will have to wait until you can apply for citizenship for her. My plan is to let my wife get citizenship and then consider living somewhere else perhaps.

Actually this last time back she applied for the re-entry permit but so we should be good for the next couple years....just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this problem by applying for citizenship while living in LOS?

[villagefarang]

We decided our best option was to surrender her green card before they took it away. Now we have an official form that says it was surrendered. That should make getting a multi year tourist visa easier.

Unless you really plan to live there and have at least 3 years continuous residence in country, this might be an option.

[Lefty]

There may be an option available depending on you current circumstances. Back in the early 1971 I was working in Laos with my Thai wife. Got her a non immigrant visa for the U.S. at the Laos Embassy. A week later went to Guam where she was interviewed and a short test for her U.S. citizenship. Did not do very well on either but thru the kindness of the examiner he passed her.Next day went with many others to the swearing in cerimony, then to the passport office and picked up her citizenship document and U.S. Passport. Total time in Guam was 2 days and all was done and wife was a new U.S. citizen.

At that time Guam did this service twice a year. The logic being that a wife was to be able to travel with her American husband where ever he went so this was available to meet that requirement.

Not sure if this is still available but worth a trip to the Embassey to check out or check Google.

Lefty

[tuffy]

There may be an option available depending on you current circumstances. Back in the early 1971 I was working in Laos with my Thai wife. Got her a non immigrant visa for the U.S. at the Laos Embassy. A week later went to Guam where she was interviewed and a short test for her U.S. citizenship. Did not do very well on either but thru the kindness of the examiner he passed her.Next day went with many others to the swearing in cerimony, then to the passport office and picked up her citizenship document and U.S. Passport. Total time in Guam was 2 days and all was done and wife was a new U.S. citizen.

At that time Guam did this service twice a year. The logic being that a wife was to be able to travel with her American husband where ever he went so this was available to meet that requirement.

Not sure if this is still available but worth a trip to the Embassey to check out or check Google.

Lefty

That is worth a shot, but knowing how screwed up the whole sytem is anymore I doubt they would leave anything that would make it easy!

I wonder If she applies whether they will even check to see how much time she is out of the US.....whishful thinging on my part I am sure...

[tuffy]

We decided our best option was to surrender her green card before they took it away. Now we have an official form that says it was surrendered. That should make getting a multi year tourist visa easier.

Unless you really plan to live there and have at least 3 years continuous residence in country, this might be an option.

Let me know how it goes for you when the time comes to get the visa.

Does anyone have an info on when they will take the green card or any stories to that effect?

[NaiGreg]

My wife voluntarily surrendered her green card when she returned to Thailand from the USA. Although her circumstances were unique. After 9-11 her pending case for "removal of temporary conditions" on her initial 2-year green card were re-assigned to a "special" unit that the INS could not discuss with her. (She is a Buddhist from Chiang Mai, but somehow got lumped in with "special" cases from the Middle East and Africa )

The adjudication process normally takes 3 months but her case went on for three years. By the time her case was adjudicated she was 8 1/2 months pregnant in Thailand and could not travel to meet in person in the USA as was required. It was all quite exasperating.

[We think] She has the right to re-apply for residency in the future but would need to start the process anew.

[brahmburgers]

As inconvenient as the OP's situation is (and other similar challenges) it's still head and shoulders better system than what farang have to face here in Thailand.

Farang over here don't have the option of a green card - which would enable a more comfortable residency than the current mish-mash of visa requirements by Thai Immigration.

[Gumballl]

Out of curiosity, how does the US gov't (CIS and Border Patrol) know how long a Conditional Resident or Permanent Resident has been out of the US? Do the airlines share this information with them?

When my wife and I left for Thailand for a short holiday, I do not recall her having to show her green card to anyone. It seemed that all she presented was her Thai passport allowing passage into Thailand and for ID purposes.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Gumballl

[flying]

Out of curiosity, how does the US gov't (CIS and Border Patrol) know how long a Conditional Resident or Permanent Resident has been out of the US? Do the airlines share this information with them?

When my wife and I left for Thailand for a short holiday, I do not recall her having to show her green card to anyone. It seemed that all she presented was her Thai passport allowing passage into Thailand and for ID purposes.

It has not happened to my wife & I

But from stories I have heard of others it happens at re-entry to the USA

They of course need to see your ID to return. If you are a green card you are not a US passport & still use your old Thai passport to re-enter the US.

So you show your green card. At that time the entry officer can make a decision.

If they suspect your maintaining a second residence they ( as far as the case I heard ) Warn you that you may have your gc revoked.

It is actually quite vague even on their site. They say a year but also say it can be much less.

I read of one revoke because they went back to Thailand soon after getting gc like many do & stayed 9 months.

We plan to return as my wife misses her family understandably but will only be gone 2 months & hope it does not affect her gc.

edit: PS: here is the same question I asked on Visa Journey awhile back

My Question

Edited August 12, 2008 by flying

[Ted Lawrence]

A 2 year travel exemption may be obtained by filing I-131, this can be downloaded by visiting the NIS website. My wife obtain the 2 year travel exemption 2 1/2 years ago but recently had to return to do a green card run.

We have since applied for another 2 year travel exemption, the I-131 must be mailed from the U.S., but she must now return again to do a biometrics which I understand to be a fancy name for finger printing.

If the I-131 is not submitted or approved, then I believe one has to return every six months.

[IMA_FARANG]

I haven't seen this problem pop up yet here on TV, maybe it has and I missed it.

Here is the deal, the wife lived with me in the USA long enough to get her Green Card, then we decided to move back to LOS.

Now when she goes back if it's not more than every 5 months or so she is going to lose it.

Are there any American's out there that have had to deal with this.

Is it possible to get her citizenship while still living here most of the time . I don't want to move back to be honest, But I don't want her to lose he right to go back either.

Any insights?

The Green Card is for aliens resident in the USA. A certain amount of time is allowed for trips outside the USA, for trips to return to the country of origin. But it is expected that the main place of residense wil be in the US.

A friend of mine had a similar problem when he worked in Saudi Arabia. He was on a two year contract, with housing provided. He had a Thai wife, who had a Green Card and was living with him in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He filed his US income tax jointly with his wife (for a tax break filing jointly versus filing two individual returns). He claimed that he was living in Saudi. When he did he recieved a letter form the Immigration people claiming that his wife could not be listed on his tax return, since she had a green Card as a US resident. The choices were to:

1. File two individual returns = higher tax bill

2. She could give up her Green Card...then they could file a joint tax return as living in Saudi

Because it was financially better to file a joint tax return, she gave up her Green Card.

Edited August 12, 2008 by IMA_FARANG

[tuffy]

A 2 year travel exemption may be obtained by filing I-131, this can be downloaded by visiting the NIS website. My wife obtain the 2 year travel exemption 2 1/2 years ago but recently had to return to do a green card run.

We have since applied for another 2 year travel exemption, the I-131 must be mailed from the U.S., but she must now return again to do a biometrics which I understand to be a fancy name for finger printing.

If the I-131 is not submitted or approved, then I believe one has to return every six months.

That is where we are now, she has applied for the I-131 and did the biometrics before returning here. So after that is approved HOPEFULLY, then she should have 2 years, but I wonder what the chances are of getting the next 131 after the 2 year time frame.

From what I have read as long as she isn't out of the states for more than 5 months at a shot then that time can be counted towards the 1 /2 year resedent requirement to apply for citizenship.

[tuffy]

Out of curiosity, how does the US gov't (CIS and Border Patrol) know how long a Conditional Resident or Permanent Resident has been out of the US? Do the airlines share this information with them?

When my wife and I left for Thailand for a short holiday, I do not recall her having to show her green card to anyone. It seemed that all she presented was her Thai passport allowing passage into Thailand and for ID purposes.

I wonder this myself. I know when she comes back the SS always ask how long she has been out of the country. whether they enter any data at that time or not who knows but knowing them they are keeping track of it.

[Martian]

If the US immigration officials see travel tendencies that make them think the green card holder is not really committed to living in the USA, they will pull the card. Green card holders shouldn't be out of the united states for more than 6 months in any one year period and pushing that to the limit year after year will most likely result in green card cancellation.

My wife has made one trip each year back to LOS for about 4-6 weeks each trip. Never a problem with immigration doing that. She just recently received her new green card with conditional status removed. This took almost a year to receive so we had already began the citizen process and her interview is just over a week away. In fact her first interview appointment was scheduled for 2 days before we returned from our recent trip and a polite request for a different appointment because of travel commitments resulted in the second appointment about 2 weeks later than the first.

I've found immigration to be accommodating and fair as long as you follow the program, don't criticize and provide good correct documents, even when it seems like a ridiculous or repetitious request. For example, I am providing my divorce papers from previous marriages for the 4th time in this whole process. I think a couple copies in the files are enough but I'm not complaining, they are in control.

Oh yea, the question. In my experience I don't see how the poster's wife can gain citizenship from LOS. This is exactly the reason why we have stuck it out here, to get her citizenship....so she/we can travel back and forth without any restrictions or stay in LOS as long as she or we can, depending upon my visa status in LOS.

Yes, it is a long process but the rewards at the end are well worth it.

Good luck!

Martian

[thaihome]

The Green Card is for aliens resident in the USA. A certain amount of time is allowed for trips outside the USA, for trips to return to the country of origin. But it is expected that the main place of residense wil be in the US.

A friend of mine had a similar problem when he worked in Saudi Arabia. He was on a two year contract, with housing provided. He had a Thai wife, who had a Green Card and was living with him in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He filed his US income tax jointly with his wife (for a tax break filing jointly versus filing two individual returns). He claimed that he was living in Saudi. When he did he recieved a letter form the Immigration people claiming that his wife could not be listed on his tax return, since she had a green Card as a US resident. The choices were to:

1. File two individual returns = higher tax bill

2. She could give up her Green Card...then they could file a joint tax return as living in Saudi

Because it was financially better to file a joint tax return, she gave up her Green Card.

That is an amazingly inaccurate storey.

1. Why would immigration have anything to do with her income tax filing status?

2. All the Form 1040 ask is for a SSN, which as a green cared holder she should have. Does not ask if citizen or permanent resident.

3. The Form 2555 for the Foreign Income Exclusion does not ask for any information on the spouse so her being in Saudi instead of the US would have no affect on eligibility of the husband to file it.

I just wonder where such stories come from.

TH

[tuffy]

I just wonder where such stories come from.

TH

That is a good question TH thanks for flushing that out of the system!

[oldgeezer]

Thanks for the replies. So far the info I have gotten is definitely not want I wanted to hear! It is 100% correct but I was really hoping that I would get lucky and some one would have a fool proof way to beat the system or at least a way around it! As hard as green cards are becoming to get I really don't want to have her lose it.

My thai wife and I lived in the states for 20 years. We moved here for two years and first time back she had to surrender her green card. Since we now live in Thailand, she was very easily issued a 10 year U.S. visa. When she had her interview, the officer told her it would be very easy to get it back since she surrendered it voluntarily. Since she isn't going to work if we go to states, she doesnt need green card.

[Martian]

I am not so convinced that Visa's are dependable over a long period of time. Maybe the 10 year mentioned above is a little different but let me share an incident that happened to me and my now wife.

Before we were married etc but after several trips between Thailand and the USA together, the Bangkok embassy issued her a 1 year visa (we only requested a few weeks visitor visa) instead of the typical "time-sensitive" visitor visa usually received. I said ok, since I was relocating back to the USA on this trip (job assignment in Thailand finished) we'll just schedule her return ticket to go back about 8 months later so we can have time together, give her a trial run at living long time in the USA and be well within the 1-year Visa window.

OH BOY, WAS THAT A MISTAKE. The immigration officers at Detroit (hate the airport by the way) took us both to separate rooms, went through all our luggage and after interrogating us and warning us not to marry or have her work, made me change her return ticket to far less time. I got a little more than 3 months because I wanted her to attend my son's graduation. I inquired why since she had a 1-year visa and they said we don't like anyone staying more than a couple or 3 months at the most at a time. I told them it is a one-year visa.....they didn't care!

So, in my experience, just because you have a certain length of visa doesn't necessarily mean you are entitled to utilize the full time of it. Immigration has big time latitude in accepting, modifying or outright denying Visa's at the entry point is they so choose.

I don't know how this might affect anyone else, but I wanted to share that experience with everyone and it is a big reason why, if possible, go for the citizenship.

Regards,

Martian

[cathyy]

A close friend of mine surrendered her green card, and got some kind of special US visa. She is free to visit the US for up to 3 months at a time, good for 10 years, with renewal available after the 10 years are done. Oh, and if she ever decided to move back to the US she would be eligible for the green card again, no hassle. So I have heard. I didn't pay much attention to the details, sorry.

[bobbyphon]

I haven't seen this problem pop up yet here on TV, maybe it has and I missed it.

Here is the deal, the wife lived with me in the USA long enough to get her Green Card, then we decided to move back to LOS.

Now when she goes back if it's not more than every 5 months or so she is going to lose it.

Are there any American's out there that have had to deal with this.

Is it possible to get her citizenship while still living here most of the time . I don't want to move back to be honest, But I don't want her to lose he right to go back either.

Any insights?

I hope this helps, but I am afraid you have already fell behind..

Suggest you go into your computer and read "Welcome to the United States, A guide for new Immigrants" published by the U.S.Citizenship and Immigration Services.. pgs 10,93(very important), 94 and 99. You will find that your wife, to become "Naturalized" must live in the U.S. for a "continuous" amount of time.. to be considered a "continuous resident".. Three years if married to a U.S. citizen.. Every time you leave the States, your time is broken and must be started again when you return to the U.S. before you can even apply for naturalization. (See pg 94) Further, pg 93 states the conditions very plainly.. Time in States requirement , out more than six months..possibly broken.. Out more than one year...broken.. and you have to start counting all over again..

This information can be found on USCIS website at "http://www.uscis.gov".

Oh, I am married to a Thai citizen, 41 years, with a green card (PRC). She goes back to our home in Thailand every two years and stays 11 months.. Never had a problem coming back..

Good luck... Bobbyphon... Florida

[DrDave]

My wife and I are in the same situation - she recently got her green card, but now we've had to change our plans regarding returning to Thailand for fear of her losing her permanent resident status. I cannot find any official documentation on any website that specifically says how long a permanent resident can remain out of the country without losing their status. We've changed our plans so that we'll be in Thailand for no more than 5 months when we return, since there seems to be general consensus that an absence of 5 months or less is relatively "safe".

As others have mentioned, I think that if US Immigration believes that the person is not residing in the US in good faith (that is, "residing" elsewhere), then they are no longer considered a permanent resident, and their green card will be confiscated upon re-entry to the US. What constitutes "residing elsewhere" seems to be purely subjective, and may well vary from one immigration officer to the next.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are different requirements for retaining PR status versus becoming eligible for naturalization. To be eligible for naturalization, the person must have been in a PR status, and physically in the country for 18 of the past 36 months (if applying based upon marriage to a US citizen, otherwise it's 30 months out of the past 5 years). In addition, a single absence of 1 year or more will reset the clock for naturalization purposes. Finally, absences of 6 months to 1 year are subject to scrutiny by US Immigration. The applicant will need to prove that they have not abandoned their US residency during such a period of absence, otherwise I believe that the clock will be reset. I have no idea of what sort of proof is required.

For maintaining the green card (PR status), my understanding is that for the first 2 years (e.g. while the person is in a Conditional PR status), they must be physically in the US for at least 1 year in total. The information given to new green card recipients relative to maintaining their status is shameful. On page 10 of the "Guide for New Immigrants" booklet, only the following is mentioned regarding maintaining Permanent Resident status:

"(1) Don't leave the United States for an extended period of time, or move to another country to live there permanently. (2) File Federal, State and if applicable, Local tax returns. (3) Register with the Selective Service if you are a male between the ages of 18 and 26, and (4) Give your new address to DHS." It then goes on to say that Permanent Residents who leave for extended periods of time, or cannot show intent to live permanently in the United States can lose their PR status. Finally, it says that if you think that you'll be out of the country for more than 12 months, then you should file form I-131 to apply for a re-entry permit, which is valid for 2 years. I think that the typical reader of this brochure would interpret this to mean that absences of less than 12 months will not affect their PR status, since nowhere is there any hint of how long an "extended absence" is - a week, a month, 6 months, a year?. In my mind, I equate this to the hypothetical situation in which you ask a police officer what the speed limit is on a particular road, and he answers with "I can't tell you, but if I pull you over and issue a ticket, then you'll know you went too fast."

In all fairness, I have to say that all of our contacts with US Immigration officers have been extremely positive. In all cases, common sense has been used in the adjudication of applications and issuance of visas and the green card. From what I've seen, most of the officers have a good sense of who's dealing in good faith, and who's not relative to visa and PR applications. I hope the same holds true for the examining officers at the ports of entry. In our case, we have a teenage daughter in Thailand who really needs some attention and support from her Mom right now, but at the same time, Mom is trying to become a US citizen to help her daughter have a better life in the near future. Right now, these two priorities seem to be somewhat at odds with each other relative to some of the subjective nuances of the US Immigration rules. We consider the US to be our residence, but we also need to spend a fair amount of time in Thailand due to family issues over the next 3 years. So, for now - we're planning to limit our visits to Thailand to 5 months per year until my wife is eligible to apply for naturalization.