Listing Charities On Thai Visa Forum

[Calico]

I totally agree with the no solicitation policy of Thai Visa Forum. I have better things to do with my time than read ads. Don't we all? Plus, in forums where ads are allowed, everybody who's got something to sell posts ads that nobody reads because they're too busy posting their own ads, and the non-ads get buried in all that rubbish.

However, I also think of charities. Some folks like to donate anonymously, others perhaps do nothing charitable, and still others are only involved in charities which include photo ops. Whatever. I'd like to think we all agree that charitable work is not the same as sales pitches and classified ads, and that some of us find genuine meaning in helping the handicapped, pets, refugees, or whatever. We probably don't all agree on what constitutes a good charity to be involved with, but those that fall into our definition are an exception, in our minds, to the sales pitches and profiteering that we'd rather not read about.

So here's what I'm thinking. If Thai Visa forum created a single page, perhaps in the mold of its Free Classifieds section and its Commercial Ads section, solely for Charities, that would be a very useful thing. Users could visit it, or not, as they see fit. This is by far the most popular Internet forum for Thailand's English-speaking community, and far more interactive and immediate than a magazine or newspaper. It'd be pretty cool if charities knew they could list themselves here, where they'd be seen by a whole lot of people.

Thai Visa Forum serves many purposes for many people, but the bottom line is that it's an asset for many reasons. A Charities page would be yet one more way for Thai Visa Forum to be a useful asset to the English-speaking community here in Thailand.

What do you think?

[Ulysses G.]

This is a great idea. I understand why Thai Visa can not allow just one or two charities to operate while excluding others, but this would be fair to all of them without using a lot of other forum's space and also let members know what charities are available.

[Wandering]

When it's ready I'd be happy to send a long list.

[Calico]

Thanks, guys. It's nice to know something useful comes out of the echo chamber between my ears from time to time.

[Buckwheat]

The no charities posting rule is simply in place because;

There is no way for us to verify whether a charity is legitimate or not.

Where the money is going.

What % is deducted for "administrative costs".

Who the money is going to.

That is not to imply that there are no worthwhile charities, but it is safer for our members if we allow them to make their decisions in the privacy of their homes and let them choose charities that they are comfortable with than it is for us to allow potential scammers to take advantage of our generous members.

If you Google "Charities Thailand" you will find over 1,000,000 pages and you will be able to read all about them and make a valued judgment as to whom and whether you would like to donate.

[Calico]

it is safer for our members if we allow them to make their decisions in the privacy of their homes and let them choose charities that they are comfortable with than it is for us to allow potential scammers to take advantage of our generous members.

Absolutely. Having one central place to easily find out what's available would allow the members to see what could be of interest, do the research, and donate time and/or money as they see fit. Due to its great popularity and interactive nature, I believe Thai Visa forum is very well suited to provide that central location. And as the list would be on a single page, members can always ignore it if they prefer.

[siamamerican]

Why not ask Thai Visa to create a charity that is limited to TV members. Once a year we vote how to distribute the money to worthy causes (not beer, BGs, ...). TV gets some added exposure and we can have a say on how the money is spent. Many TV members possess valuable skills in variety of industries. For example, volunteer TV members could probably biuld a simple house in a couple weeks. TV members could volunteer to teach for 1 month and the list goes on.

I would love to witness CynthiaLee and Blizzard with hammers in their hands and doing something constructive. Seriously, it would be relatively easy to setup in the US, but not sure how charities work in the Thailand.

Edited August 13, 2008 by siamamerican

[Guest Reimar]

The no charities posting rule is simply in place because;

There is no way for us to verify whether a charity is legitimate or not.

Where the money is going.

What % is deducted for "administrative costs".

Who the money is going to.

That is not to imply that there are no worthwhile charities, but it is safer for our members if we allow them to make their decisions in the privacy of their homes and let them choose charities that they are comfortable with than it is for us to allow potential scammers to take advantage of our generous members.

If you Google "Charities Thailand" you will find over 1,000,000 pages and you will be able to read all about them and make a valued judgment as to whom and whether you would like to donate.

I second that!

Charity can have many names and a lot many meanings! There very well know huge Charity Organizations around the world. If you take a close look of many of them, you can easy find out what's going o with Donations to that organizations, mainly the donated money. Up to 80% use for administrative only.

Did you like that? I don't!

What bother me to much is the lack of control what's done with the donations. And why I should be a part of a group to provide a better live or whatsoever to members of an organization which relies an donation of others?

And there many other point's why I'm against Charity Organizations. If I like to help someone or so, I'll do directly without of the use of an Charity Organization.

Cheers.

[Calico]

I agree. Charity fraud sickens me.

But just to take a hypothetical example, if someone lost the use of his legs in a vehicle accident, I'd like to help give that man a wheelchair. If I read somewhere that some cats were starving, I'd go drop off a bag of food. No chance of fraud there. That's the kind of thing I'd like to see listed somewhere. And given the reach of Thai Visa Forum, why not here?

I once worked for Honeywell in Tampa, Florida, and it was pretty much mandatory for us to give money to the United Way. I hate those people. That is NOT what I mean when I talk about a place to list "charities." Maybe I need a different word.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Calico

[Wandering]

Not everyone knows who is truly in need (see forum topic on giving to beggars (maffia))

Who should we give to?

Let me paint a quick scenario.

A friend of mine likes to pack up his 4WD with supplies and take a yearly load of gifts to the mountains for poor villagers.

Here is what happens.

A free for all panic of grabbing takes place at the back of his Ute.

First dibs goes to the chief.

Next, after much fighting and wrestling, with first come first serve, it goes to the strongest, biggest bullies.

Finally the scraps go to whoever is there.

I have contacts in a remote village. I took my friend and his supplies there.

2 villages led by the teachers, pastor, and chief, equitably distributed everything amongst everyone.

Some items went to help the community as a whole.

This is the kind of benefit that a charity can offer that a lone individual cannot.

They target the neediest and then filter the resources most effectively and most importantly foster a community spirit.

Charities are not always perfect but they are one of the best methods we have of making this a better world.

[Guest Reimar]

As there isn't a "normal" way for a small community like Thaivisa for to control what will going on if Charities are allowed on the forum, there is only one decision: Not allowed at all.

And I frankly ask you all, what you'll thinking what's going on if Charities allowed?

The result will be an scenario out of any borders within a very short period. You can't allow some Charities to publish their "line" and deny others. But if you have to allow all, you need a team of moderators just for that scenario only.

Don't forget, to use Thaivisa to express your views and so on, isn't anything else than a privilege. What you do in your private live is up to you.

Cheers.

[catmac]

I've a feeling that what Calico and Wandering are thinking of is not so much a list of "Charities", so much as details of where TV members themselves are involved in helping out with local good causes.

I've a definite sympathy with the Moderators' view on "organised Charities", some of which are little more than money-making scams, but if this were to be strictly limited to TV members themselves I can see nothing but good in the scheme. Remember, no one is going to be forced to participate or donate, or even read the thread if their only interest in Thailand is booze and cheap sex! However I do believe that there is a vast pool of goodwill amongst the TV members, that could welcome the chance to get involved in helping out the local community.

[Calico]

I've a feeling that what Calico and Wandering are thinking of is not so much a list of "Charities", so much as details of where TV members themselves are involved in helping out with local good causes.

Precisely.

[stevemcqueen]

Why not have a "sticky" pinned at the top of each local forum,of local charities...checked,of course,by Tv.

[GuestHouse]

The no charities posting rule is simply in place because;

There is no way for us to verify whether a charity is legitimate or not.

Where the money is going.

What % is deducted for "administrative costs".

Who the money is going to.

That is not to imply that there are no worthwhile charities, but it is safer for our members if we allow them to make their decisions in the privacy of their homes and let them choose charities that they are comfortable with than it is for us to allow potential scammers to take advantage of our generous members.

If you Google "Charities Thailand" you will find over 1,000,000 pages and you will be able to read all about them and make a valued judgment as to whom and whether you would like to donate.

Another second for that.

And I would add - Setting up pseudo NGO/Charities is fast becoming a route to getting a visa to stay long term in Thailand - Look at all the dog/cat rescue foundations being set up (as just one example).

[Calico]

Why not have a "sticky" pinned at the top of each local forum,of local charities...checked,of course,by Tv.

That would be awesome.

(As far as checking the charities, I'd do that myself regardless of whether TV did or didn't check them. As many have noted, the scammers are everywhere.)

[Wandering]

Those who are against putting up a board about charities, what is the specific objection?

Is the problem with the board itself or with charities as a whole?

Arguments regarding the TV forum board

-It is a hassle to set up.

-who would moderate it?

-how could you prevent one group (ie dog haters) from picking on a group who thinks that they are making a difference (ie-taking in stray dogs)

-what would define a charity, an NGO, a really nice thing to do for someone else etc... where would the limits be set.

-How do you know if a scam or illegal business, is listed?

-How do you keep charities from spamming that forum?

-It would get out of control, grow huge, and generally be an unreadable pain in the backside.

Arguements against the charities.

-I don't like all this talk about charity. It makes me feel guilty.

-hating all charities and things related. Having been burned once, all babies should be tossed in the klong with their bathwater.

-a perception that most charities have at their core a religious motivation. Many people hate religion (considering it ignorant and superstitious) and therefore hate charities.

-everyone should take care of themselves. If you are an orphan, widow, cripple, or have a disease then that is your issue. It is hard enough to look out for number one much less a bunch of beggars looking for a free ride.

-there is no such thing as a real charity. Everything I've ever seen is a scam to get your money.

-Only a fraction of charity money ever makes it the people in need.

-Everyone should give to whatever charity they find that they believe in.

-Inequality- Why should this forum promote some and not others.

Perhaps what we need. A summary of what has been suggested.

Some of us might notice a real need and we can't do it alone. We want to help and offer a chance for other TV forum people to help. 100% of donations would go to help whatever that project might be. A bunch of us agree to get together on a certain day and go and do that nice thing for someone who can't help themselves.

for instance: a few years ago there was a formal ball thrown in ChaingMai to raise money for a charity. I was asked to find who was the neediest. I found a home for young girls-at-risk (house of refuge). They had barely enough money for fish-head soup and living conditions were atrocious. The ball raised 100,000B for them to purchase a new home. The girls now live in a clean/healthy environment and several have graduated and gotten jobs. It touched everyones hearts when the girls came to sing for everyone. The evening was fun and successful.

[Mossfinn]

There very well know huge Charity Organizations around the world. If you take a close look of many of them, you can easy find out what's going o with Donations to that organizations, mainly the donated money. Up to 80% use for administrative only.

Did you like that? I don't!

There is a lot of hyperbole regarding charities and their administrative costs, I have provided a link, their own admittedly, but a link, none the less regarding Oxfam's admin costs, care to provide me with a similar one regarding, a well known huge Charity organisation in recent years that have an 80/20 split, even Pareto would struggle to justify that.

Cheers

Link

[Guest Reimar]

From the Forum Rules:

First at all: 7) .............. Membership is at the will of thaivisa.com. ......................

Second: 8) All advice voluntarily given by any member in any of the fora which constitute thaivisa.com is provided free of charge, and it is not permitted to either solicit for, or accept, donations, gifts etc. for providing such advice to visitors and members. Likewise, it is not permitted to either steer, or promote, or solicit people to go to locations or businesses in which it is necessary to pay for services or assistance with the exception of thaivisa.com sponsors, who may reasonably promote themselves.

Third: 10) Please do not post links to pages that contain objectionable material. This includes, warez, cracks, file sharing, pornography, pyramid schemes, referral ID's, ebay listings and requesting donations.

********************************

The real nature of Charities is to get something they asking for which could be money, food, clothes or whatsoever. Clearly spoken get property of others for free.

But Charity organizations didn't working for free, a huge amount of the "income" (donation) is used for to finance the so named administrative costings which also includes Salary of the "workers"and all other costings!

The nature of an Bulletinboard like Thaivisa is to provide a kind free service, and only that: for free. Thaivisa didn't take any money from members, except from Advertisers, who promoting the own Business on the Board, which means that they will have some return for the paid advertisement. There also Sponsors and even that sponsors have the right of advertising. This the exceptions!

And here we go: Charity Organizations can "advertise" on Thaivisa if they pay for the advertisement or be an sponsor! Because even Thaivisa isn't working just for FREE! To run an system like Thaivisa cost also money and a lot of work! Someone need to pay for that! And same as Charities, which is using a part of the donations to cover the costing, Thaivisa need to get the money for to cover it's costings as well!

Maybe those of you, who's like charities that much, would be pay for that promotions?

For those who want to use Thaivisa for to promote their Charity, the way to go is to contact the owner of Thaivisa, which has to be done via the Administrator of Thaivisa.

Please keep in mind that all Moderators are doing "charity" work for free to have this board running. And it's not a good idea to try to press Mod's in an "corner"!

Cheers.

[Mossfinn]

From the Forum Rules:

First at all: 7) .............. Membership is at the will of thaivisa.com. ......................

Second: 8) All advice voluntarily given by any member in any of the fora which constitute thaivisa.com is provided free of charge, and it is not permitted to either solicit for, or accept, donations, gifts etc. for providing such advice to visitors and members. Likewise, it is not permitted to either steer, or promote, or solicit people to go to locations or businesses in which it is necessary to pay for services or assistance with the exception of thaivisa.com sponsors, who may reasonably promote themselves.

My link was for the sole purpose of supporting my assertion that the 80/20 rule is unsubstantiated and a request to prove otherwise, so that I could review my position if necessary.

If the link is outside the rules, it was my mistake, just crack the link.

Third: 10) Please do not post links to pages that contain objectionable material. This includes, warez, cracks, file sharing, pornography, pyramid schemes, referral ID's, ebay listings and requesting donations.

I have no idea what some of those terms are, but fully understand the last one, the link needs to be disappeared, but as already explained it was for purposes to dispel the myth surrounding admin costs in large and reputable organisations.

The real nature of Charities is to get something they asking for which could be money, food, clothes or whatsoever. Clearly spoken get property of others for free.

But Charity organizations didn't working for free, a huge amount of the "income" (donation) is used for to finance the so named administrative costings which also includes Salary of the "workers"and all other costings!

Yes, charities do ask for donations and yes part of this is used for the everyday functions of that organisation, its effectiveness would be sorely curtailed without organisational structure behind it, 'huge', is open to interpretation, but it is not 80% in a large and respected organisation, which was my point and the link to Oxfam was Thai related of sorts, they do a lot of work there.

The nature of an Bulletinboard like Thaivisa is to provide a kind free service, and only that: for free. Thaivisa didn't take any money from members, except from Advertisers, who promoting the own Business on the Board, which means that they will have some return for the paid advertisement. There also Sponsors and even that sponsors have the right of advertising. This the exceptions!

I understand the need for paying sponsors.

And here we go: Charity Organizations can "advertise" on Thaivisa if they pay for the advertisement or be an sponsor! Because even Thaivisa isn't working just for FREE! To run an system like Thaivisa cost also money and a lot of work! Someone need to pay for that! And same as Charities, which is using a part of the donations to cover the costing, Thaivisa need to get the money for to cover it's costings as well!

I am not sure if you are aware, because it was before your time as a Mod, but I am aware of that too, because of previous correspondence.

Maybe those of you, who's like charities that much, would be pay for that promotions?

For those who want to use Thaivisa for to promote their Charity, the way to go is to contact the owner of Thaivisa, which has to be done via the Administrator of Thaivisa.

You may not also be aware, because of previous correspondence, but I am aware of this also.

Please keep in mind that all Moderators are doing "charity" work for free to have this board running. And it's not a good idea to try to press Mod's in an "corner"!

I was not trying to put you in a corner, but dispel a myth, if anybody puts out information that may not be correct, surely it is open to be corrected, or clarified that is all I asked, you appear to have taken it personally, I wasn't attacking you, I was refuting your post, in doing so I posted a link that was against the rules.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Mossfinn

[Calico]

Do all of these posts mean I can't ask anyone to drop some cat food off at Wat Pa Pao from time to time? Oh well, I'll feed the kitties myself. Nice to know what a nice bunch of people you all are. And that you actually read my original post before going off into la-la land.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Calico

[Guest Reimar]

I was not trying to put you in a corner, but dispel a myth, if anybody puts out information that may not be correct, surely it is open to be corrected, or clarified that is all I asked, you appear to have taken it personally, I wasn't attacking you, I was refuting your post, in doing so I posted a link that was against the rules.

Moss, I wasn't answer to your post!! As I wrote my post, I haven't read yours. And I don't think you was posting against the rules, better I haven't seen something like that from you!

The whole post of mine wasn't in any means personal to any other's poster post! It was just an explanation how I see charities even in connection with Thaivisa. My words about the duty of Moderators were global as well and not personal!

One thing I've learned since I'm a Mod here, "normal" members seeing Mod's with different eyes while forget that Mod's are not different from others. The measuring of Mods by members unfortunate differs in the way that Mod's get much faster and more criticized than normal members. There even a few members only looking for a weakpoint in Mod's actions and post's. But that's normal and I don't mind about that as long as not get to personal.

As everybody else, I doing my mistake because I'm imperfect and in the real I like to be so! And I try to not to forget the following: Don't do to other's which you don't like other's do to you.

Cheers.

[Calico]

I'm really too tired to flag 95% of the replies as being off-topic, which they quite obviously are.

I'm leaving this thread now. Y'all have fun talking about whatever you're on about.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Calico

[Ulysses G.]

It certainly looks like the OP wants this topic closed.

Mods?

[MiG16]

alright Ill bite

explanations about thaivisa policy with regards to charities and the reasoning for the policy has been provided in a detailed manner.