Samak Hopes To Build High-speed Trains

[Old Man River]

Big projects,ie bus lease, mean big kickbacks to pay for a general election after the King's birthday.

Exactly.

[h90]

I think George means 200 kph or 120 MPH.

Yeah that would be on the tracks they are going to lay in the Gulf of Thailand off Hua Hin & Cha Am .

Be cool if he could fix Bangkok traffic.

Thats better...around state of technology 1933, there they could went 200 with steam.......

[Scott]

I, for one, would appreciate a high-speed rail system.

[Plus]

Everyone would appreaciate high speed rail system.

Scott, what are the chances of that ever being built?

Just because Samak says something, doesn't mean he's going to do anything about it. In this case he CAN'T do anything, even if he was really serious.

He's made quite a few promises this year that hasn't seen any progress yet - double tracks for the whole country, extra mass transit lines for Bangkok, undeground water tunnels for Isan - just off the top of my head.

High speed trains promise joins right at the bottom of the list. Welcome and enjoy your stay.

[zink]

The Shinkansen (Hikari type, older than the newest Nozomi 700) from Tokyo to Nagoya goes about that - 200km/h - and the price for the 360km ride is about 4000 (4 thousand) baht. There is still a levy on petrol to pay for the cost of Shinkansen.

Many takers in Thailand for a 4000B ride between, say, Bangkok and Surat Thani?

Big difference between offering free train rides today and Shinkansen type of service in 20 years....

In a case you haven't noticed, everything is much more expensive in Japan. More valid comparison would be China, where high-speed trains are relatively cheap. Fastest traditional train route launched for olympics is running at 350kmph.

Where should I get educated about how expensive Japan is?

If last 5 years of living in Japan have not been enough, I must be a hopeless case.

Why is then Thai Airways on par or slightly more expensive than Japan Airlines and ANA from Tokyo to BKK?

Why are the very same products at the Emporium 10-15% more expensive then in similar shop in Tokyo?

What does the price of plane ticket on Tokyo-BKK route have to do with the price of the trains within a country?

And how do you know that 350km train is cheap? The government is subsidising it as they do pay for China space programs, nobody would make a sqeek in protest.

I have travelled by high-speed train in China... no, I didn't pay 4000B for 350km trip.

Goverment is subsiding all types of transport everywhere in the world by building the infrastructure (roads, rails and airports).

Here is a hint why train ticket are more expensive in Japan:

- Japanese workers earn a "bit" more than workers in China or Thailand

- Japanese trains a "bit" more expensive than trains made in China

[Scott]

Plus: Of course your probably right and this is probably just another pipe dream and diversion from other things. I would still like to see it happen, but then I also want my own yacht and a private jet!

[think_too_mut]

The Shinkansen (Hikari type, older than the newest Nozomi 700) from Tokyo to Nagoya goes about that - 200km/h - and the price for the 360km ride is about 4000 (4 thousand) baht. There is still a levy on petrol to pay for the cost of Shinkansen.

Many takers in Thailand for a 4000B ride between, say, Bangkok and Surat Thani?

Big difference between offering free train rides today and Shinkansen type of service in 20 years....

In a case you haven't noticed, everything is much more expensive in Japan. More valid comparison would be China, where high-speed trains are relatively cheap. Fastest traditional train route launched for olympics is running at 350kmph.

Where should I get educated about how expensive Japan is?

If last 5 years of living in Japan have not been enough, I must be a hopeless case.

Why is then Thai Airways on par or slightly more expensive than Japan Airlines and ANA from Tokyo to BKK?

Why are the very same products at the Emporium 10-15% more expensive then in similar shop in Tokyo?

What does the price of plane ticket on Tokyo-BKK route have to do with the price of the trains within a country?

And how do you know that 350km train is cheap? The government is subsidising it as they do pay for China space programs, nobody would make a sqeek in protest.

I have travelled by high-speed train in China... no, I didn't pay 4000B for 350km trip.

Goverment is subsiding all types of transport everywhere in the world by building the infrastructure (roads, rails and airports).

Here is a hint why train ticket are more expensive in Japan:

- Japanese workers earn a "bit" more than workers in China or Thailand

- Japanese trains a "bit" more expensive than trains made in China

Then you can easily explain how comes that BKK SkyTrain (built by Siemens) is more expensive than some similar distance in Tokyo?

Shinjuku-Shinagawa, takes 15 minutes, has 6 stops, the train hits 120km/h. Could be distance between Saphan Thaksin and Suvarnabhumi airport.

Price? 160Yen, about 50-55 baht. The cheapest ticket is 120Yen, 40B, for half that.

Take a compaable distance (On Nut - Saphan Thaksin) as an example. What would that be? 40 baht? That is 120 Yen.

Surprisingly, that same distance would be 30B on Tokyo Yamanote line.

The carriages themselves are not the major cost, they can be built in China (as Chinese own are, licensed and supervised by Shinkansen).

When it comes to operating that sophisticated equipment and network, wage difference between Thailand and Japan becomes negligible.

Travelers will have to pay what it cost, as they do pay for Sky Train,

What does the price of plane ticket on Tokyo-BKK route have to do with the price of the trains within a country?

Given identical equipment, identical route and weather, somehow it does not show that Thai crews earn less than Japanese crews opeating the same route and same aircraft. Contrary, as TG is more expensive than Japanese carriers, one would thing Thais earn more!

Generally, when it comes to high tech, what can be saved in lower wages is eaten up by lower efficiency.

[Plus]

I once read that our Skytrain is one of the expensive system to run in the world, why would our high speed trains be any cheaper?

Government subsidies for private transport projects do not work in Thailand, from Dong Muang tollway to private bus fleet to Skytrain to MRT - they always fail, so high speeds train tickets will reflect the actual costs and be as high as anywhere in the world.

[jitagon]

Samak has obviously been very useful to his controllers when kept on a very tight leash but when let off his inability to stay in touch with reality is quite astounding.

Samak should not be underestimated regarding political savviness, here's his plan in my view-

6 months, six measures- appeal to the poor in Bangkok, no need to please Issan and the north, already in the bag.

Double track railway,clear slums for parks for Bangkokians- these appeal to all Bangkokians, especially middle class, wean them away from PAD.

Big projects,ie bus lease, mean big kickbacks to pay for a general election after the King's birthday. It can't be before because Samak has promised the period from the Queen's birthday to The King's will be for reconciliation.

Elections follow, the new PPP, whatever name they choose if disbanded, win an overall majority thus claiming the right to amend the constitution and cease all cases against Thaksin.

A scenario I hope doesn't take place.

There is absolutely no way a man who, when governor of Bangkok, caused a huge outcry when he decided he was going to place Bangkok's first Centre for the Arts in a bloody shopping mall, is going to turn slum areas into parks.

[hansnl]

Isn't a lot of the slowness caused by waiting for other trains to pass, due to a lot of the rail network being single-track? Making everything double would already gain a lot of speed.

But basically I think rail travel in Thailand is dead; all the investment has already been in the road network, meaning that buses will always be faster for the foreseeable future.

Possibly they could keep some rail lines for higher-end boutique tourism purposes, like the Eastern & Oriental 5 star line.

Poppycock, as they say.

Rail travel could be the only hope for a lot of countries.

Buses will always be faster, yes maybe, however, the price of diesel and the wages for drivers will go up.

One train with 10/15 carriages needs one driver, one relief driver, and some serving/security staff.

And do not forget one carriage can transport more people in one go as one bus.

One diesel locomotive uses considerable less diesel as 10/15 buses.

If any government is able to invest some, well maybe a lot of money into the rail network, and really wants to do something about congestion on the roads, then rail travel is not dead.

However, it will die very soon if the privatisation madness gets on its way.

The fastest trains in the world with the best results are all run by state-owned railways.

Forget privatisation for mass transport, it does not work, even a state run company can make a profit.

The SRT will always be hindered by 100 cm and single track.

Together they bring down the median speed to 80 km/h max, depending on the lenght of the blocks.

If double track is made on the main lines, the median speed might go up to 100 km/h max.

If, and only if, any government will be serious about congestion, oil, mass transport, then there will be a well run railway company.

As long as it is not run by private companies, that is.

[zink]

Then you can easily explain how comes that BKK SkyTrain (built by Siemens) is more expensive than some similar distance in Tokyo?

Shinjuku-Shinagawa, takes 15 minutes, has 6 stops, the train hits 120km/h. Could be distance between Saphan Thaksin and Suvarnabhumi airport.

Price? 160Yen, about 50-55 baht. The cheapest ticket is 120Yen, 40B, for half that.

Take a compaable distance (On Nut - Saphan Thaksin) as an example. What would that be? 40 baht? That is 120 Yen.

Surprisingly, that same distance would be 30B on Tokyo Yamanote line.

The carriages themselves are not the major cost, they can be built in China (as Chinese own are, licensed and supervised by Shinkansen).

When it comes to operating that sophisticated equipment and network, wage difference between Thailand and Japan becomes negligible.

Travelers will have to pay what it cost, as they do pay for Sky Train,

With 6 stops and only 15 minutes travel time, the distance can't be too long even if the maximum speed of the train is high.

According to your information: minimum ticket price is 30-40B in Japan while it's about 15B in Bangkok and 10B in several Chinese cities. Maximum price is about 40-45B in Bangkok, what is the maximum price in Tokyo? I think it would be over 100B. There is a significant price difference here in my opinion....

I'm not saying that high-speed trains would be automatically successful in Thailand. But price isn't the reason why they wouldn't work (just look at China which has lower GDP per capita).

What does the price of plane ticket on Tokyo-BKK route have to do with the price of the trains within a country?

Given identical equipment, identical route and weather, somehow it does not show that Thai crews earn less than Japanese crews opeating the same route and same aircraft. Contrary, as TG is more expensive than Japanese carriers, one would thing Thais earn more!

Generally, when it comes to high tech, what can be saved in lower wages is eaten up by lower efficiency.

In free market (as when international airlines are competing for the same route) price is determined by the supply and demand and competition and not by the actual costs. It would be stupid for Thai airways to charge significantly less than Japanese airlines, even if Thai's costs would be much lower.

[kartman]

Samak is obviously miffed that Thailands current train crashes dont get the International press they deserve the regular buffer bashing or carriages falling off the tracks just does'nt do it. So the thought of even a 120kph train driven by Thai speeding or asleep at 150/160kph meeting Dmaxs & Vigo's ignoring stop signs and the ensuing pile of carriages with publicity must turn him on ?.

[think_too_mut]

With 6 stops and only 15 minutes travel time, the distance can't be too long even if the maximum speed of the train is high.

According to your information: minimum ticket price is 30-40B in Japan while it's about 15B in Bangkok and 10B in several Chinese cities. Maximum price is about 40-45B in Bangkok, what is the maximum price in Tokyo? I think it would be over 100B. There is a significant price difference here in my opinion....

There is NO distance in Bangkok - their trains are Mickey mouse. One that I picked for this argument is just something in Tokyo that includes comparable distance from Bangkok. And 120kmh train even with 6 stops will take you 25km.

Just last week it was too hot (40C) that I would have turned into a wad of sweat if I walked to Shinagawa train station to catch that 50B train to 20+ km distant Shinjuku. I took a taxi instead and the fare was 2,000B.

Narita Express train is 1000B while taxi would be 10,000B (ten thousand).

Opposite in Bangkok: it is easy to imagine a distance that 2 passengers can travel by taxi in BKK and make it equal or cheaper than if they paid 40B each for Sky Train. There is no such thing in Tokyo. That just tells you how relatively expensive Sky Train in Bangkok is, regardless of population's income and purchasing power. And accordingly, how expensive high speed trains would be to run, let alone build the tracks and hardware.

I'm not saying that high-speed trains would be automatically successful in Thailand. But price isn't the reason why they wouldn't work (just look at China which has lower GDP per capita).

I am saying that Thailand can not afford to have high speed trains even if somebody served them on the plate, for free.

Also, I showed what it cost to have them in Japan and in Thai similar trains would cost almost that same money to run as in Japan.

Thailand can't afford to subside them nor can public afford to travel at near-realistic prices.

China government is paying for their trains to operate, not passengers. In Japan, even with expensive tickets, there is still subsidy from petrol tax.

In free market (as when international airlines are competing for the same route) price is determined by the supply and demand and competition and not by the actual costs. It would be stupid for Thai airways to charge significantly less than Japanese airlines, even if Thai's costs would be much lower.

Then, it must be competition. Rubbish airlines like United, North West, Biman Bangladesh, Air India, Air Lanka charge half the price.

Somehow, Thai Airways is not among them although there is no reason to be left out.