Tuesdays Shooting Outside Carrefour (Update)

[KevinHunt]

Things like this happen all the time, most of it covered up, denied and hidden. They are trying to deny this too, it is the automatic response and works until International media blow it open. I just wish most of you that refuse to acknowledge that Thailand is a dangerous place regardless of how sober and self righteous you are that this place is indeed not the safe, cozy, friendly place you all claim it to be. More Brits die here than ANY other vacation locale. Most Thai homes have walls lined with glass shards and pointy steel pikes surrounding them. Thai police are more likely to vicitimise you then help you, Thais avoid them as much as possible. I know events like this that happen don't change your minds.... I don't know why alot of you insist on denying, I assume its because it makes you feel better and anything that intrudes on that feeling is vehemently argued against even when its staring you in the face. We would never even have heard about this if the people it happened to didnt post here. How many more do we not know about? How many more happen to Thais and NO ONE hears about it? Unless its a rich thai. Im not bashing Thais, I'm simply stating the obvious fact: This place is not safe.

I am so happy the little girl had a freak stoke of luck... who ever heard of a kiddie seat strap stopping bullets? Amazing and great! This story almost certainly should have been alot worse. Nothing will happen, no one will be held accountable, which does in fact make it more sad. If I was the father I would be going insane....

Best post I have read in a long time... well said

So you're leaving, as well Tony and Sabum?

Now it's a 'non-developed second class nation' and it's dangerous. What's keeping you here I wonder?

Remember what I said about the alarmists?

More Brits die here than ANY other vacation locale.

I don't believe it.

Most Thai homes have walls lined with glass shards and pointy steel pikes surrounding them.

None in my moobahn, right in town. I'm sure some do. As in Liverpool or London or ......

Personally I've always felt safe here. I feel a lot safer here than I have on the few short visits I've made to The UK in the last 10 years. I don't think I'm in denial. My biggest fear is the driving, but after 20 years I'm getting used to it. I wouldn't get on a motorbike if you paid me, but I do use my seatbelt and always expect the unexpected when driving. That's my only fear. Driving. In almost twenty years in Chiang Mai I've never had my house or car broken into and never felt threatened by anyone. No 'who are you looking at' looks.

I lived for more than 20 years in one of the roughest parts of Liverpool and was never even threatened with violence and never involved in as much as a scuffle. A lot to do with who you associate with and where you go. Trouble wasn't hard to find, but I didn't go looking and stayed away from people, places and situations that invited trouble. I didn't drink in the rough bars and didn't associate with the wrong people. I just lead a regular life - in Kirkby!!

Most people leading a quiet life here will have no problems. Much the same as back home.

I don't deny that this country (like all others) can be dangerous, I just do my best to enjoy it and avoid people and places that I would normally avoid. I've heard all the stories over the years - Yakuza gangs and all - but it is extremely unlikely to affect me. That's what I believe and if that makes me 'in denial' or ignorant then all I can say is - ignorance is bliss.

I know Iain, and I have enormous sympathy for him and his lovely family but I still maintain that this incident was extremely unfortunate and extremely unlikely. Given the circumstances.

Edited August 22, 2008 by KevinHUNT

[tartempion]

How chocked I am reading this incident, super-glad the OP's daughter wasn't hurt too badly!

To KevinHunt, re your above comment:

We moved to our new home and still were building the perimeter wall.

Thieves came by at night but we heard them and I scared them away by opening a window, they jumped over the unfinished wall, no chance I could have catched one with my hands.

One week later, early morning the workers called me over to show fresh footprints on top of the wall they covered with cement the previous day.

One week later I added barb wire on top of the walls and our property is fully lighted at night (automatic sensor system)

I do have the option to add night vision cameras and automatic guns, but have not decided to go this far yet.

Do the villagers feel safe here?

Most certainly not.

My gf tells me when they lived and slept in a shack on the rice field her father slept with his stick next to him, ready to hit thieves who came at night to steal chicken.

A few weeks ago they even stole two buffaloes from a neighbour whilst the owners were attending a party in the village.

My gf got life threatened by a neighbour because of a neighbour's dispute. Because we were 1000kms from her family and thus without the power of numbers (beating the sh*t out) we moved out within 24h of the threat. That was the only smart thing to do. Some Thais are really crazy, including the idiots shooting 9mm guns around hotels and supermarkets.

Edited August 22, 2008 by tartempion

[Wrong Turn]

aiianian101, Best of luck. This is a terrible happening, but could have been worse.

[injomtien]

A while ago I was nearly shot in Bangkok, ....by a policeman..!

I will post the full story soon on TV.

But an innocent child that nearly gets shot is really terribible!

I wish you all the best, she has been very lucky!

[SPIKECM]

I have been in Chiang Mai for eight years and I guess then I don't know much about the terrible crime here either. Considering the disparity in income it must be the safest places on earth compared to other equivalent cities.

The biggest danger for tourists here is motorbikes. But then the Thais in this "lawless cowboy country" do make it unlawful not to use helmets and there is a law backed up by a massive campaign not to drink and drive. This is very often ignored by farangs here who wouldn't dream of doing this in their own country.

What makes Thailand unsafe for toursist and expats isn't crime. It is the "mai pen rai" and "up to you attitide". But that is also what makes life here incredibly fun and good to be alive. You can try and have it both ways, but you just can't control everything, especially when it comes to children.

Thailand certainly isn't a lawless cowboy country. Is the fault of the Thais that the vast majority of tragic accidents involving foreigners here results from a combination of being drunk and driving without a helmet? The one main thing that you CAN do here to be safer is to keep away from motorbikes. It is rather ironic that Iain was driving a car with a child's seat belt, but it again proves that you just cannot control everything.

The real problem lies in the Thai attitude to any problem, not particularly the police's attitude. This attitide is all over Thailand and it is this which gives the country one of the highest accident rates anywhere. If you look around the government hospitals they are filled with very stupid and very preventable domestic accidents, rather than filled with victims of crime. It is the thais who take the brunt of "mai pen rai" for the vast majority of the time.

I have seen this incident called a tragedy, but you would be hard pressed to find a Thai who would agree. It was more a wonderful stroke of luck and it is why, given the culture here, you can't expect the Thais to react like we would in the West. It is just not how things work here. Problems are avoided at any cost and when there isn't a problem (happy healthy baby waving to smiling happy nurses) then they won't look for one. It is not how we handle things for sure and there lies the problem in living here. Like it or leave it. The decision is up to every individual and there isn't a right answer. Just don't try and change a thing though, as you never will.

[Governor]

What a shocking story, this is the first ever post that has brought tears to my eyes. Thank god, or whatever faith you believe in, your beautiful child is making a full recovery. As she is so young hopefully, in time, she will forget what has happened to her. You will obviously never forget that a hand reached out and saved your family.

As for the incompetence of the police and Carrefour staff, well that beggars belief.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[Thai at Heart]

A while ago I was nearly shot in Bangkok, ....by a policeman..!

I will post the full story soon on TV.

But an innocent child that nearly gets shot is really terribible!

I wish you all the best, she has been very lucky!

Last night central Khon Kaen, a policeman shot pillion passenger on a motorcycle for failing to stop at checkpoint. Apparently he let of four shots. 3 missed

This country is nuts sometimes. To the OP, you have had an amazingly fortunate experience.

[jitagon]

I have been in Chiang Mai for eight years and I guess then I don't know much about the terrible crime here either. Considering the disparity in income it must be the safest places on earth compared to other equivalent cities.

The biggest danger for tourists here is motorbikes. But then the Thais in this "lawless cowboy country" do make it unlawful not to use helmets and there is a law backed up by a massive campaign not to drink and drive. This is very often ignored by farangs here who wouldn't dream of doing this in their own country.

What makes Thailand unsafe for toursist and expats isn't crime. It is the "mai pen rai" and "up to you attitide". But that is also what makes life here incredibly fun and good to be alive. You can try and have it both ways, but you just can't control everything, especially when it comes to children.

Thailand certainly isn't a lawless cowboy country. Is the fault of the Thais that the vast majority of tragic accidents involving foreigners here results from a combination of being drunk and driving without a helmet? The one main thing that you CAN do here to be safer is to keep away from motorbikes. It is rather ironic that Iain was driving a car with a child's seat belt, but it again proves that you just cannot control everything.

The real problem lies in the Thai attitude to any problem, not particularly the police's attitude. This attitide is all over Thailand and it is this which gives the country one of the highest accident rates anywhere. If you look around the government hospitals they are filled with very stupid and very preventable domestic accidents, rather than filled with victims of crime. It is the thais who take the brunt of "mai pen rai" for the vast majority of the time.

I have seen this incident called a tragedy, but you would be hard pressed to find a Thai who would agree. It was more a wonderful stroke of luck and it is why, given the culture here, you can't expect the Thais to react like we would in the West. It is just not how things work here. Problems are avoided at any cost and when there isn't a problem (happy healthy baby waving to smiling happy nurses) then they won't look for one. It is not how we handle things for sure and there lies the problem in living here. Like it or leave it. The decision is up to every individual and there isn't a right answer. Just don't try and change a thing though, as you never will.

Whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with the gist of your post, do you have statistics to back this up? It does rather seem to imply that it is, in the vast majority of cases any particular foreigner's fault he/she's dead in a car accident and which had nothing at all to do with the terrible driving here, as in the rest of Asia.

[Tony Clifton]

Things like this happen all the time, most of it covered up, denied and hidden. They are trying to deny this too, it is the automatic response and works until International media blow it open. I just wish most of you that refuse to acknowledge that Thailand is a dangerous place regardless of how sober and self righteous you are that this place is indeed not the safe, cozy, friendly place you all claim it to be. More Brits die here than ANY other vacation locale. Most Thai homes have walls lined with glass shards and pointy steel pikes surrounding them. Thai police are more likely to vicitimise you then help you, Thais avoid them as much as possible. I know events like this that happen don't change your minds.... I don't know why alot of you insist on denying, I assume its because it makes you feel better and anything that intrudes on that feeling is vehemently argued against even when its staring you in the face. We would never even have heard about this if the people it happened to didnt post here. How many more do we not know about? How many more happen to Thais and NO ONE hears about it? Unless its a rich thai. Im not bashing Thais, I'm simply stating the obvious fact: This place is not safe.

I am so happy the little girl had a freak stoke of luck... who ever heard of a kiddie seat strap stopping bullets? Amazing and great! This story almost certainly should have been alot worse. Nothing will happen, no one will be held accountable, which does in fact make it more sad. If I was the father I would be going insane....

Best post I have read in a long time... well said

So you're leaving, as well Tony and Sabum?

Now it's a 'non-developed second class nation' and it's dangerous. What's keeping you here I wonder?

With the Emporium and Siam Paragon shopping malls, BMWs and Mercs and souped up cars and pick-up trucks all over the country, international airports, super highway system, sky train, subway, golf clubs all over, everyone with a cell phone or two, and all the other luxuries available here, I don't buy the non-developed/developing country factor anymore.

What's keeping us here is the length of the procedure for my wife's permanent residency application which is in the last stage now,granted, not the house that remains unsold, the cheap cost of living (not so anymore), not bars or girls or anything else.

[Insight]

This is utterly insane. I hope Lala has a speedy recovery. I also hope this story gets the press coverage it truly deserves.

[lannaman]

What a terrible shock for you all. Lala looks a great little kid and I'm sure she'll forget about quickly, which is more than you will.

The Sun's report was unusually accurate, and they didn't sieze the opportunity to run down Thailand, which makes a change! Good luck and a happy future for all your family.

[iainiain101]

Nee, I and Lala (Isobel) would like to thank everyone for their heart felt comments and support.

It has been a couple of days since the incident now. We have had the most wonderfull emails and messages from people all over the world that we have never even met, and we truelly thank you all.

The most important little person, Lala...

It was her 16th month birthday today, as most of you have suggested she is lucky she was so young when it hapened. We both agreed, but realised 2 days ago when we tried to replace the bay car chair and she started screaming that there is some memory.

We had to revisit the McCormick hospital today.

The doctor says he is still in shock that the seat belt definately saved her life. We need to get Nee a UK visa as we want Lala to get back on to the uK to see all the realtions and most importantly grand parents and had been planning on taking Lala to the beach as part of the trip. This is a no go as her chest is appently burnt by the shell and cannot be in contact with water.

Hence the dressing had to be changed.

As soon as she was taken into the emergency room for this, she started to cry, no sound just tears.

At 15 months they definately remeber sever trauma.

Nee and I are trying our best to take her to 'safe' places. Airport plaza, guest houses for dinner, etc. If you see us and want to say hello, by all means do.

For those of you who know us, you will know that Nee is a Christian, and we will be having a Mass at our house at 5pm tomorrow. ( all those who wish to attend please let us know asap)

Thank you

Lala, Iain & Nee

[iainiain101]

It has been suggested to us that it would not be out of the ordinary for the Thai Police to request assistance from Scotland Yard. We have had a number of telephone calls from police and retired police in the UK offering support and help.

Does anyone recall this having occured in the past, and if so what is the procedure?

Thanks

Iain

[mrt273nva]

this is an amazing story. thank God she is alright.

[Tywais]

I merged the two new topics on this into one to keep continuity of the ongoing story.

[iainiain101]

I merged the two new topics on this into one to keep continuity of the ongoing story.

ok, though will post the invite to a christian mass in CM forum if that is ok?

[Boater]

Iain, just read the OP, very shocking in deed, and i am glad your daughter is ok,

to your question above, i highly doubt scotland yard or the UK police can assist, as it is under Thai law and how they work ( pretty crap )

They would however get involved if the Child was murdered or abducted, ( UK policy )

So i take it they have not found the person who shoot her?

Good luck,

Boater

[iainiain101]

Iain, just read the OP, very shocking in deed, and i am glad your daughter is ok,

to your question above, i highly doubt scotland yard or the UK police can assist, as it is under Thai law and how they work ( pretty crap )

They would however get involved if the Child was murdered or abducted, ( UK policy )

So i take it they have not found the person who shoot her?

Good luck,

Boater

To be honest, we dont know. I am still waiting to give a witness statement.

[Tywais]

I merged the two new topics on this into one to keep continuity of the ongoing story.

ok, though will post the invite to a christian mass in CM forum if that is ok?

Not a problem iain.

[Boater]

Iain, just read the OP, very shocking in deed, and i am glad your daughter is ok,

to your question above, i highly doubt scotland yard or the UK police can assist, as it is under Thai law and how they work ( pretty crap )

They would however get involved if the Child was murdered or abducted, ( UK policy )

So i take it they have not found the person who shoot her?

Good luck,

Boater

To be honest, we dont know. I am still waiting to give a witness statement.

Good Luck, but if they havent even taken a witness statement from you yet, that is poor police work

[iainiain101]

To be honest I do not know. I was back in the UK when the British police went out to Antigua, truelly awfull murders of a young couple.

I have been to the hospital today and the doctor still cant believe Lala (Isobel) is alive!

Why shuldnt we get the same investigation. I have paid a heck of a lot of tax, and if the locals are not too interested, I would like to see some effort from my own government.

[Jimjim]

With the Emporium and Siam Paragon shopping malls, BMWs and Mercs and souped up cars and pick-up trucks all over the country, international airports, super highway system, sky train, subway, golf clubs all over, everyone with a cell phone or two, and all the other luxuries available here, I don't buy the non-developed/developing country factor anymore.

Good point. Thailand is not a "3rd world country." That term is horribly outdated and misused and people love to use it to say that Thailand is a poor, unorganized, backwater, etc. country. It's more of a scale, now. There are modern or developed countries at the top of the list like the UK, U.S., France, etc. There are newly industrialized countries like Brazil, Malaysia, and Thailand. Then there are developing countries like Laos and Cambodia and most of the countries in the world, actually. You could put an even lower category as least industrialized or completely impoverished nations also. Then there is the Human Development Index and Human Poverty Index. The term "developing" is not the greatest but if you use those four categories above, you have a good idea of where Thailand fits. It's not a perfect system or science, but more perfect than people calling Thailand a third world country as a way to insult or defend the country and/or make them feel better about explaining the state of things. It's just not an accurate or descriptive statement anymore. Thailand is certainly not developed like Western countries, but it's not underdeveloped either.

What's keeping us here is the length of the procedure for my wife's permanent residency application which is in the last stage now,granted, not the house that remains unsold, the cheap cost of living (not so anymore), not bars or girls or anything else.

I'm in the U.S. now, and it is so that Thailand is still a cheap place to live. There are things in Thailand that are more expensive or the same price as here, but overall there's just no comparison, Thailand is much cheaper.

Anyway, sorry to the OP, my comments are not really on topic. Horrible thing to happen. I'll leave my input at that.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Jimjim

[jietjon]

With the Emporium and Siam Paragon shopping malls, BMWs and Mercs and souped up cars and pick-up trucks all over the country, international airports, super highway system, sky train, subway, golf clubs all over, everyone with a cell phone or two, and all the other luxuries available here, I don't buy the non-developed/developing country factor anymore.

Good point. Thailand is not a "3rd world country." That term is horribly outdated and misused and people love to use it to say that Thailand is a poor, unorganized, backwater, etc. country. It's more of a scale, now. There are modern or developed countries at the top of the list like the UK, U.S., France, etc. There are newly industrialized countries like Brazil, Malaysia, and Thailand. Then there are developing countries like Laos and Cambodia and most of the countries in the world, actually. You could put an even lower category as least industrialized or completely impoverished nations also. Then there is the Human Development Index and Human Poverty Index. The term "developing" is not the greatest but if you use those four categories above, you have a good idea of where Thailand fits. It's not a perfect system or science, but more perfect than people calling Thailand a third world country as a way to insult or defend the country and/or make them feel better about explaining the state of things. It's just not an accurate or descriptive statement anymore. Thailand is certainly not developed like Western countries, but it's not underdeveloped either.

What's keeping us here is the length of the procedure for my wife's permanent residency application which is in the last stage now,granted, not the house that remains unsold, the cheap cost of living (not so anymore), not bars or girls or anything else.

I'm in the U.S. now, and it is so that Thailand is still a cheap place to live. There are things in Thailand that are more expensive or the same price as here, but overall there's just no comparison, Thailand is much cheaper.

Anyway, sorry to the OP, my comments are not really on topic. Horrible thing to happen. I'll leave my input at that.

<deleted>..... God speed recovery to Lala and family

[Hawkup2000]

bump bump

101 An updates concerning the police?

My thoughts are with you,

Hawkup

[sylviex]

To be honest, we dont know. I am still waiting to give a witness statement.

Have you written everything down ? If not, do so with your wife as soon as possible. You may remember more details over time, but get your current memories into writing ASAP.

[Tywais]

Off topic and argumentative posts have been removed. The debate on safety in Thailand/CM is discussed at lengths in other topics, let's leave it out of this one please.

[kmart]

I offer my best wishes to to iainian101's family and little girl; and also a speedy recovery.

I would hope that one day this country finds somebody who has the clout and political will to try and sort out the shower of sh!te that wear police uniforms here. But I'm not holding my breath. My decision to continue to live here would change if I had a young child.

[Beardog]

I am glad your little girl is OK. She was sure lucky. Usually a 9 mm. bullet will drop a horse. Hard to believe an innocent drive by shooting in Thailand. Hope the police get lucky & find the perpetrator. That big of a gun, it was possibly one of their own guns that got stolen. hopefully some one will tip off the police who the perpetrator is . Some sick SOB's out there that would shoot an innocent little kid. I hope you in time will be able to not have nightmares about this horrible incident!

On the brighter side all the bad things you here about child carriers- this one was able to slow or deflect some of the velocity & spare your child.

[t.s]

good god mate, the hair on the back of my neck stood on end. Glad irt all worked out in the end

[clausewitz]

Don't accidents happen all over the place. You could have hit another car or a car hit you, I don't see why it is so shocking?